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Thread: Rethinking Socialized Medicine

  1. Post #51

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    Default Re: Rethinking Socialized Medicine

    IMHO, my disagreement is not about whether this health care scam works or does not work. It is not even about whether it is better or cheaper for the majority here. What it is all about is giving someone else (bureaucrat or otherwise) complete control over how you spend your money, how you live and how you die. Socialism always leads to total control. It might take 20 years, but we all know where the train is heading. I have no gripes about a group of people wanting to elect a dictator for themselves, but when they elect a dictator for me, I have a big problem.


    http://www.isil.org/resources/philos...ty-english.swf
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  3. Post #52

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    Default Re: Rethinking Socialized Medicine

    Quote Originally Posted by Usury View Post
    And please don't start quoting charts or studies or giving numbers.
    That's too funny

  4. Post #53

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    Default Re: Rethinking Socialized Medicine

    Quote Originally Posted by latemetal View Post
    Just got a medical bill in the mail, my insurance has declined to pay someone. Oh the joy of Blue Cross Blueshield of Florida, are you guys certain that socialized medicine would be worse than this kind of crap? BRIO CONSIDER YOURSELF ASKED BY AN AMERICAN- "Brio, I honestly wish you'd stay the hell out of discussions about the healthcare system in the U.S. and worrry about your own country. If we want your input, then we'll ask for it." THAT GUY WAS RUDE.
    I agree. Although I often disagree with Brio on this topic, her input does not offend me. She at least researches and believes in what she says. There are some who bash Americans and Americans at every opportunity, but Brio is not one of those. Her comments usually make me go back a think about my own observations. That I can appreciate.
    I am the last remaining Indian, looking for the place where the buffalo roam.
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  5. Post #54

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    Default Re: Rethinking Socialized Medicine

    Quote Originally Posted by Brio View Post
    That's too funny
    I have nothing against charts and graphs, I just happen to think they don't always tell the whole story. An obvious example is unemployment figures and inflation figures as well for that matter. They just don't very often account for everything.

    ie figures lie and liars figure. They are developed most often with a preconceived outcome in mind. I know what I've experienced however for over sixty years in America. And it completely disagrees with some observations others seem to have.
    I am the last remaining Indian, looking for the place where the buffalo roam.
    In August and everything after, man them buffalo ain't never comin' home

    -Adam Duritz - August and Everything After

    Support the tenth amendment center and nullify now. search it and read about it.

  6. Post #55

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    Default Re: Rethinking Socialized Medicine

    Quote Originally Posted by Usury View Post
    ...

    As far as Brio, as a tax-paying, voting U.S. Citizen, I'd like to discuss and debate our country's problems with other such responsible Citizens.

    ...
    That's nice and all but, sadly for you, it doesn't give you the right to exclude anyone from the conversation here. No, not even if you pretend to speak for others, not even if you spell citizens with a capital C.

    As far as the topic goes, socialized medicine may float for a while when supported by abundant natural resources and small, relatively young populations, but it's always a recipe for disaster. Even if the service quality could be kept high, which it can't, choice and freedom must be eliminated.

    Cuba supposedly has some high quality medical services. But, even if they're free, they come at a high cost.
    Reason, not might, makes right.

  7. Post #56

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    Question How can so many countries be wrong?

    How can Canada, The United Kingdom, France, Germany, Australia, New Zealand, Norway, Iceland, Finland, Sweden, Japan, and the other countries that have National Health Insurance all be WRONG. If I missed your country, no offense intended.
    Quote Originally Posted by Libertaurum View Post
    That's nice and all but, sadly for you, it doesn't give you the right to exclude anyone from the conversation here. No, not even if you pretend to speak for others, not even if you spell citizens with a capital C.

    As far as the topic goes, socialized medicine may float for a while when supported by abundant natural resources and small, relatively young populations, but it's always a recipe for disaster. Even if the service quality could be kept high, which it can't, choice and freedom must be eliminated.

    Cuba supposedly has some high quality medical services. But, even if they're free, they come at a high cost.

  8. Post #57

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    Default Re: How can so many countries be wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by latemetal View Post
    How can Canada, The United Kingdom, France, Germany, Australia, New Zealand, Norway, Iceland, Finland, Sweden, Japan, and the other countries that have National Health Insurance all be WRONG. If I missed your country, no offense intended.
    That's no argument, but why is it so hard for you to believe that those countries could "all be wrong"? Most countries have been "wrong" about a great many things at one time or another, including slavery. So, you tell me, how could they all be wrong?

    Besides, you failed to address my post; some of the countries you mention depend on small populations and abundant natural resources to pay for the "free" medical services. A lot of free rides are going to come to an end.
    Reason, not might, makes right.

  9. Post #58

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    Exclamation Re: How can so many countries be wrong?

    Afghanistan*, Argentina, Austria, Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Chile, China, Cuba, Costa Rica, Cyprus, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Iraq*, Iceland, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Oman, Portugal, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Spain, Sweden, South Korea, Sri Lanka, Ukraine and the United Kingdom

    *Universal health coverage provided by United States war funding

    Just a thought, some of these countries we pay for the health care system even though we still don't have one ourselves... We need to invade all these countries and free them from NHS.

  10. Post #59

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    Default Re: How can so many countries be wrong?

    This is funny:


    WASHINGTON–Sarah Palin's weekend admission that her family had travelled to Canada to receive treatment under the public health-care system she's so often demonized prompted skepticism and ridicule Monday among her critics in the United States.

    "My first five years of life we spent in Skagway, Alaska, right there by Whitehorse," the former Alaska governor said Saturday night during a speech in Calgary.

    "Believe it or not – this was in the '60s – we used to hustle on over the border for health care that we would receive in Whitehorse. I remember my brother, he burned his ankle in some little kid accident thing, and my parents had to put him on a train and rush him over to Whitehorse and I think, isn't that kind of ironic now. Zooming over the border, getting health care from Canada."
    Palin's Canadian health care claim stuns critics

    SO a disruptive MSM with an agenda (and I don't really care if it's leftot right oriented) blasts Palin for utilizing Canadian h/c without the foggiest mention that Whitehorse YT is closer than Juneau AK. Whitehorse is 3 hrs away from Skagway, Juneau is 4 1/2 hrs from Skagway IF you hit the ferry exactly right. That ferry sails at best twice a day mostly once (perhaps once a day back in the '60s). If your child is in need of medical attention, you get them to a hospital asap without consideration of political repercussions no?

    Just an example of how the media distorts and warps an issue to guide the opinion of those who's thoughts are focused on what they want to hear and nothing else. Opinions are like assholes, every body has one. But thinking for yourself and researching for yourself, rather than trying to shut up those who don't tell you what you want to hear...then you learn.

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  12. Post #60

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    Default Re: How can so many countries be wrong?

    [QUOTE=latemetal;61418]Afghanistan*, Argentina, Austria, Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Chile, China, Cuba, Costa Rica, Cyprus, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Iraq*, Iceland, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Oman, Portugal, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Spain, Sweden, South Korea, Sri Lanka, Ukraine and the United Kingdom
    QUOTE]

    I can't speak for the rest of these countries, but Greece I know about. I have family there, they have to buy insurance for a better quality of care. There also is a system of bribery that is ingrained into it. Last week the hospital doctors went on strike because they weren't getting paid and the cut backs because the system is overwhelmed. Doctors there do not make the big bucks like here. Socialized medicine is not what everyone thinks it is. They take care of people with out insurance but you really don't want to be put in that position unless absolutley necessary.

  13. Post #61

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    Default Re: How can so many countries be wrong?

    Meetzos, in America, you are expected to go quietly die in some secluded corner if you don't have "good health insurance", I have heard of the little envelope system in Greece and it is a step up from what we have here. I may start paying into Costa Rica's system just to have a back up plan. I have to look into the rules on that.

  14. Post #62

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    Default Re: How can so many countries be wrong?

    Brio, one of the saddest things of the movie "Sicko" was the poor Americans having to sneak into Canada to obtain health care. That movie was an eye opener for me.

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    Default Re: How can so many countries be wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by latemetal View Post
    Brio, one of the saddest things of the movie "Sicko" was the poor Americans having to sneak into Canada to obtain health care. That movie was an eye opener for me.
    It is inexcusable. We have spent so much of our taxes to create/maintain the NIH/NSF, which have funded and invented quite a few of our drugs and medical equipment only not to have the public access it. When the hell are we going to get wise to it????

  16. Post #64

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    Default Re: Rethinking Socialized Medicine

    Quote Originally Posted by Brio View Post
    Every 12 seconds in the US somebody dies for lack of health care coverage and it doesn't?
    http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE58G6W520090917
    No freaking way. That doesn't even pass the sniff test! One every 12 seconds is 5/minute!

    5/min * 60min = 300/hr
    300/hr * 24hrs = 7200/day
    7200/day * 365 days = 2,628,000 / year, more people than die of ALL CAUSES in the US every year.

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  18. Post #65

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    Default Re: Rethinking Socialized Medicine

    Yup, that should have been 1 every 12 MINUTES according to the article.

  19. Post #66

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    Default Re: How can so many countries be wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brio View Post
    This is funny:




    Palin's Canadian health care claim stuns critics

    SO a disruptive MSM with an agenda (and I don't really care if it's leftot right oriented) blasts Palin for utilizing Canadian h/c without the foggiest mention that Whitehorse YT is closer than Juneau AK. Whitehorse is 3 hrs away from Skagway, Juneau is 4 1/2 hrs from Skagway IF you hit the ferry exactly right. That ferry sails at best twice a day mostly once (perhaps once a day back in the '60s). If your child is in need of medical attention, you get them to a hospital asap without consideration of political repercussions no?

    Just an example of how the media distorts and warps an issue to guide the opinion of those who's thoughts are focused on what they want to hear and nothing else. Opinions are like assholes, every body has one. But thinking for yourself and researching for yourself, rather than trying to shut up those who don't tell you what you want to hear...then you learn.
    Got a point there.
    I am the last remaining Indian, looking for the place where the buffalo roam.
    In August and everything after, man them buffalo ain't never comin' home

    -Adam Duritz - August and Everything After

    Support the tenth amendment center and nullify now. search it and read about it.

  20. Post #67

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    Default Re: Rethinking Socialized Medicine

    Quote Originally Posted by latemetal View Post
    Yup, that should have been 1 every 12 MINUTES according to the article.
    And once again likely stated in a way that supports the agenda. I would believe that many people die without health insurance but that not nearly that many die as a direct result of not having it and would have gone on to live much of an extended life with it.

    But once again I'll go back to the crux of the issue. Healthcare at someone else's expense can in no way, shape or form be submitted as a right, but a privilege. I don't owe them healthcare or unnaturally extended life and they don't owe me unnaturally extended life. To be forced to participate in such a scheme is theft, plain and simple.

    It may seem hokey, but some lines from an old John Wayne movie come to mind. The preface is that one character needs help and the other is looking for a job:

    Devlin Warren: About that job Mr. McLintock.
    George Washington McLintock: Look son, I told ya, I got no need for farmers. Or use for them either.
    Devlin Warren: Just one minute, Mr. McLintock. My father died last month, how come we don't have a homestead. I've got a mother, a little sister to feed. I need that job badly.
    George Washington McLintock: What's your name?
    Devlin Warren: Devlin Warren.
    George Washington McLintock: Well, you've got a job. Go see my home ranch forman. He's over by the corral.
    Devlin Warren: Step down off that carriage, mister!
    George Washington McLintock: [Swings and McLintock and gets thrown to the ground] Hold that hog leg! I've been punched many a time in my life but never for hirin' anyone.
    Devlin Warren: I don't know what to say. Never begged before. Turned my stomach. I suppose I should have been grateful that you gave me the job.
    George Washington McLintock: Gave? Boy, you've got it all wrong. I don't give jobs I hire men.
    Drago: You intend to give this man a full day's work, don'tcha boy?
    Devlin Warren: You mean you're still hirin' me? Well, yes, sir, I certainly deliver a fair day's work.
    George Washington McLintock: And for that I'll pay you a fair day's wage. You won't give me anything and I won't give you anything. We both hold up our heads. Is that your plug?
    Devlin Warren: Yes sir.
    George Washington McLintock: Well, hop on him and we'll go get your gear.
    And there it is.That's the way America was designed to work and it was successful when it did.
    I am the last remaining Indian, looking for the place where the buffalo roam.
    In August and everything after, man them buffalo ain't never comin' home

    -Adam Duritz - August and Everything After

    Support the tenth amendment center and nullify now. search it and read about it.

  21. Post #68

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    Default Re: Rethinking Socialized Medicine

    GoldWampum, you do realize that idolized America NEVER EVER EXISTED don't you. John Wayne was a hell of an actor and I grew up on his movies. I expect to pay for the national health insurance one way or another because I do understand there is no free lunch. Good try though.

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    Default Re: Rethinking Socialized Medicine

    Quote Originally Posted by latemetal View Post
    GoldWampum, you do realize that idolized America NEVER EVER EXISTED don't you. John Wayne was a hell of an actor and I grew up on his movies. I expect to pay for the national health insurance one way or another because I do understand there is no free lunch. Good try though.
    No need for veiled insults. That just shows you don't have a point. Do you really have to insinuate I am stupid in order to give yourself standing?

    Of course I know nothing is perfect. One of the biggest reasons for that is that some amount of limited government is necessary and government will grow and repress at every opportunity. The obvious is that as government and socialism have increased, conditions have gotten correspondingly worse. America was more free and prosperous without that growth of both. I don't deal in absolutes, but definitely in trends. With the quote I gave, I never said everyone and everything was ever exactly like the quote, only that that is what was intended in America and when it was more that way, there was more prosperity. Deny that if you like, but I see it as fact. So don't expect a response if you argue the obvious.

    I see you didn't bother to address the more important point however. Sheesh... talk about your misdirection.
    I am the last remaining Indian, looking for the place where the buffalo roam.
    In August and everything after, man them buffalo ain't never comin' home

    -Adam Duritz - August and Everything After

    Support the tenth amendment center and nullify now. search it and read about it.

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    Default Re: Rethinking Socialized Medicine

    btw... The idea of personal Liberty and ownership of one's own life is an ideal, not an idol. Idolized is sneaky way to try and make it sound less than it is.

    Idolized is more a word that would describe those who think government is the answer, rather than one who understands that freedom is the answer. As in, Subjects/Slaves idolize their Kings/Masters.

    Free individuals idolize no one as King or Master with dominance over them.

    You do know that concept exists don't you? Once that is understood, one easily understands why it is theft to take a man's labor by force and give it to someone else. And the penalty for ignoring that is the downfall of a civilization or society.

    Gosh, you do understand that don't you?

    EDIT: And oh by the way... the quote is valid even though you tried shooting the messenger. It should not be mandatory or even expected that we owe one another anything. The ideal situation is that we trade value for value and decide for ourselves how and when to offer more.
    I am the last remaining Indian, looking for the place where the buffalo roam.
    In August and everything after, man them buffalo ain't never comin' home

    -Adam Duritz - August and Everything After

    Support the tenth amendment center and nullify now. search it and read about it.

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    Default Re: Rethinking Socialized Medicine

    NEVER EVER EXISTED
    latentmetal... you do understand that it was a lot closer to existing then than it is today don't you?
    I am the last remaining Indian, looking for the place where the buffalo roam.
    In August and everything after, man them buffalo ain't never comin' home

    -Adam Duritz - August and Everything After

    Support the tenth amendment center and nullify now. search it and read about it.

  25. Post #72

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    Default Re: Rethinking Socialized Medicine

    because I do understand there is no free lunch.
    You obviously do not. If you want to pay for someone else's free lunch, go ahead. Forcing others to forfeit their labor for your personal ideal is theft. If you participate in that forced ideal, then you are a common thief. Plain and simple.
    I am the last remaining Indian, looking for the place where the buffalo roam.
    In August and everything after, man them buffalo ain't never comin' home

    -Adam Duritz - August and Everything After

    Support the tenth amendment center and nullify now. search it and read about it.

  26. Post #73

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    Default Re: Rethinking Socialized Medicine

    Rethinking medicine in general, the whole pharma/doctor/patient matrix is evil.

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    Default Re: Rethinking Socialized Medicine

    Quote Originally Posted by gonzo View Post
    Rethinking medicine in general, the whole pharma/doctor/patient matrix is evil.
    What a dishonest argument. Please brothas. If you have something honest to say, say it... but please, not this kind of misdirection. It lowers the quality of the board.

    I often wonder why liberals take this deceitful tack when confronted by facts, rather than just, in fact, rethink the principles that they themselves present and be honest about how they affect the the will of a free people forced to labor (as in slave) for those causes. Why the misdirection? Rhetorical of course, unless one of them wants to have an honest discussion for a change.

    Here's a little flavor of the principles this country was founded upon. An indication of how it was understood then as opposed to how it is misunderstood and in fact trampled on now. A short history lesson for those bereft of the understanding. Let's see what Davey Crockett had to say about the duties, obligations and liabilities of government as outlined in the Constitution versus the will of free people to aid in whatever way they voluntarily choose to do so. It's quite the interesting story when one considers that given the opportunity government will take anything they want from one's labor and give it to whomever they choose. And why that is wrong according to the foundation of freedom in America.

    http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig4/ellis1.html

    From The Life of Colonel David Crockett,
    by Edward S. Ellis (Philadelphia: Porter & Coates, 1884)


    Crockett was then the lion of Washington. I was a great admirer of his character, and, having several friends who were intimate with him, I found no difficulty in making his acquaintance. I was fascinated with him, and he seemed to take a fancy to me.

    I was one day in the lobby of the House of Representatives when a bill was taken up appropriating money for the benefit of a widow of a distinguished naval officer. Several beautiful speeches had been made in its support – rather, as I thought, because it afforded the speakers a fine opportunity for display than from the necessity of convincing anybody, for it seemed to me that everybody favored it.

    The Speaker was just about to put the question when Crockett arose. Everybody expected, of course, that he was going to make one of his characteristic speeches in support of the bill. He commenced:
    "Mr. Speaker – I have as much respect for the memory of the deceased, and as much sympathy for the sufferings of the living, if suffering there be, as any man in this House, but we must not permit our respect for the dead or our sympathy for a part of the living to lead us into an act of injustice to the balance of the living. I will not go into an argument to prove that Congress has no power to appropriate this money as an act of charity. Every member upon this floor knows it. We have the right, as individuals, to give away as much of our own money as we please in charity; but as members of Congress we have no right so to appropriate a dollar of the public money. Some eloquent appeals have been made to us upon the ground that it is a <nobr>debt</nobr> due the deceased. Mr. Speaker, the deceased lived long after the close of the war; he was in office to the day of his death, and I have never heard that the government was in arrears to him. This government can owe no debts but for services rendered, and at a stipulated price. If it is a debt, how much is it? Has it been audited, and the amount due ascertained? If it is a debt, this is not the place to present it for payment, or to have its merits examined. If it is a debt, we owe more than we can ever hope to pay, for we owe the widow of every soldier who fought in the War of 1812 precisely the same amount. There is a woman in my neighborhood, the widow of as gallant a man as ever shouldered a musket. He fell in battle. She is as good in every respect as this lady, and is as poor. She is <nobr>earning</nobr> her daily bread by her daily labor; but if I were to introduce a bill to appropriate five or ten thousand dollars for her benefit, I should be laughed at, and my bill would not get five votes in this House. There are thousands of widows in the country just such as the one I have spoken of, but we never hear of any of these large debts to them. Sir, this is <nobr>no debt</nobr>. The government did not owe it to the deceased when he was alive; it could not contract it after he died. I do not wish to be rude, but I must be plain. Every man in this House knows it is not a debt. We cannot, without the grossest corruption, appropriate this money as the payment of a debt. We have not the semblance of authority to appropriate it as a charity. Mr. Speaker, I have said we have the right to give as much of our own money as we please. I am the poorest man on this floor. I cannot vote for this bill, but I will give one week's pay to the object, and if every member of Congress will do the same, it will amount to more than the bill asks."

    He took his seat. Nobody replied. The bill was put upon its passage, and, instead of passing unanimously, as was generally supposed, and as, no doubt, it would, but for that speech, it received but few votes, and, of course, was lost.

    Like many other young men, and old ones, too, for that matter, who had not thought upon the subject, I desired the passage of the bill, and felt outraged at its defeat. I determined that I would persuade my friend Crockett to move a reconsideration the next day.

    Previous engagements preventing me from seeing Crockett that night, I went early to his room the next morning and found him engaged in addressing and franking letters, a large pile of which lay upon his table.

    I broke in upon him rather abruptly, by asking him what devil had possessed him to make that speech and defeat that bill yesterday. Without turning his head or looking up from his work, he replied:
    "You see that I am very busy now; take a seat and cool yourself. I will be through in a few minutes, and then I will tell you all about it."
    He continued his employment for about ten minutes, and when he had finished he turned to me and said:

    "Now, sir, I will answer your question. But thereby hangs a tale, and one of considerable length, to which you will have to listen."

    I listened, and this is the tale which I heard:
    Several years ago I was one evening standing on the steps of the Capitol with some other members of Congress, when our attention was attracted by a great light over in Georgetown. It was evidently a large fire. We jumped into a hack and drove over as fast as we could. When we got there, I went to work, and I never worked as hard in my life as I did there for several hours. But, in spite of all that could be done, many houses were burned and many families made homeless, and, besides, some of them had lost all but the clothes they had on. The weather was very cold, and when I saw so many women and children suffering, I felt that something ought to be done for them, and everybody else seemed to feel the same way.

    The next morning a bill was introduced appropriating $20,000 for their relief. We put aside all other business and rushed it through as soon as it could be done. I said everybody felt as I did. That was not quite so; for, though they perhaps sympathized as deeply with the sufferers as I did, there were a few of the members who did not think we had the right to indulge our sympathy or excite our charity at the expense of anybody but ourselves. They opposed the bill, and upon its passage demanded the yeas and nays. There were not enough of them to sustain the call, but many of us wanted our names to appear in favor of what we considered a praiseworthy measure, and we voted with them to sustain it. So the yeas and nays were recorded, and my name appeared on the journals in favor of the bill.

    The next summer, when it began to be time to think about the election, I concluded I would take a scout around among the boys of my district. I had no opposition there, but, as the election was some time off, I did not know what might turn up, and I thought it was best to let the boys know that I had not forgot them, and that going to Congress had not made me too proud to go to see them.

    So I put a couple of shirts and a few twists of tobacco into my saddlebags, and put out. I had been out about a week and had found things going very smoothly, when, riding one day in a part of my district in which I was more of a stranger than any other, I saw a man in a field plowing and coming toward the road. I gauged my gait so that we should meet as he came to the fence. As he came up I spoke to the man. He replied politely, but, as I thought, rather coldly, and was about turning his horse for another furrow when I said to him: "Don't be in such a hurry, my friend; I want to have a little talk with you, and get better acquainted."

    He replied: "I am very busy, and have but little time to talk, but if it does not take too long, I will listen to what you have to say."
    I began: "Well, friend, I am one of those unfortunate beings called candidates, and – "

    "'Yes, I know you; you are Colonel Crockett. I have seen you once before, and voted for you the last time you were elected. I suppose you are out electioneering now, but you had better not waste your time or mine. I shall not vote for you again.'

    This was a sockdolager... I begged him to tell me what was the matter.

    "Well, Colonel, it is hardly worthwhile to waste time or words upon it. I do not see how it can be mended, but you gave a vote last winter which shows that either you have not capacity to understand the Constitution, or that you are wanting in honesty and firmness to be guided by it. In either case you are not the man to represent me. But I beg your pardon for expressing it in that way. I did not intend to avail myself of the privilege of the Constitution to speak plainly to a candidate for the purpose of insulting or wounding you. I intend by it only to say that your understanding of the Constitution is very different from mine; and I will say to you what, but for my rudeness, I should not have said, that I believe you to be honest. But an understanding of the Constitution different from mine I cannot overlook, because the Constitution, to be worth anything, must be held sacred, and rigidly observed in all its provisions. The man who wields power and misinterprets it is the more dangerous the more honest he is."

    "I admit the truth of all you say, but there must be some mistake about it, for I do not remember that I gave any vote last winter upon any constitutional question."

    "No, Colonel, there's no mistake. Though I live here in the backwoods and seldom go from home, I take the papers from Washington and read very carefully all the proceedings of Congress. My papers say that last winter you voted for a bill to appropriate $20,000 to some sufferers by a fire in Georgetown. Is that true?"
    "Certainly it is, and I thought that was the last vote which anybody in the world would have found fault with."

    "Well, Colonel, where do you find in the Constitution any authority to give away the public money in charity?"

    Here was another sockdolager; for, when I began to think about it, I could not remember a thing in the Constitution that authorized it. I found I must take another tack, so I said:

    "Well, my friend; I may as well own up. You have got me there. But certainly nobody will complain that a great and rich country like ours should give the insignificant sum of $20,000 to relieve its suffering women and children, particularly with a full and overflowing Treasury, and I am sure, if you had been there, you would have done just as I did."

    "It is not the amount, Colonel, that I complain of; it is the principle. In the first place, the government ought to have in the Treasury no more than enough for its legitimate purposes. But that has nothing to do with the question. The power of collecting and disbursing money at pleasure is the most dangerous power that can be entrusted to man, particularly under our system of collecting revenue by a tariff, which reaches every man in the country, no matter how poor he may be, and the poorer he is the more he pays in proportion to his means. What is worse, it presses upon him without his knowledge where the weight centers, for there is not a man in the United States who can ever guess how much he pays to the government. So you see, that while you are contributing to relieve one, you are drawing it from thousands who are even worse off than he. If you had the right to give anything, the amount was simply a matter of discretion with you, and you had as much right to give $20,000,000 as $20,000. If you have the right to give to one, you have the right to give to all; and, as the Constitution neither defines charity nor stipulates the amount, you are at liberty to give to any and everything which you may believe, or profess to believe, is a charity, and to any amount you may think proper. You will very easily perceive what a wide door this would open for fraud and corruption and favoritism, on the one hand, and for robbing the people on the other. No, Colonel, Congress has no right to give charity. Individual members may give as much of their own money as they please, but they have no right to touch a dollar of the public money for that purpose. If twice as many houses had been burned in this county as in Georgetown, neither you nor any other member of Congress would have thought of appropriating a dollar for our relief. There are about two hundred and forty members of Congress. If they had shown their sympathy for the sufferers by contributing each one week's pay, it would have made over $13,000. There are plenty of wealthy men in and around Washington who could have given $20,000 without depriving themselves of even a luxury of life. The Congressmen chose to keep their own money, which, if reports be true, some of them spend not very creditably; and the people about Washington, no doubt, applauded you for relieving them from the necessity of giving by giving what was not yours to give. The people have delegated to Congress, by the Constitution, the power to do certain things. To do these, it is authorized to collect and pay moneys, and for nothing else. Everything beyond this is usurpation, and a violation of the Constitution."

    I have given you an imperfect account of what he said. Long before he was through, I was convinced that I had done wrong. He wound up by saying:

    "So you see, Colonel, you have violated the Constitution in what I consider a vital point. It is a precedent fraught with danger to the country, for when Congress once begins to stretch its power beyond the limits of the Constitution, there is no limit to it, and no security for the people. I have no doubt you acted honestly, but that does not make it any better, except as far as you are personally concerned, and you see that I cannot vote for you."

    I tell you I felt streaked. I saw if I should have opposition, and this man should go talking, he would set others to talking, and in that district I was a gone fawn-skin. I could not answer him, and the fact is, I did not want to. But I must satisfy him, and I said to him:
    "Well, my friend, you hit the nail upon the head when you said I had not sense enough to understand the Constitution. I intended to be guided by it, and thought I had studied it full. I have heard many speeches in Congress about the powers of Congress, but what you have said there at your plow has got more hard, sound sense in it than all the fine speeches I ever heard. If I had ever taken the view of it that you have, I would have put my head into the fire before I would have given that vote; and if you will forgive me and vote for me again, if I ever vote for another unconstitutional law I wish I may be shot."

    He laughingly replied:
    "Yes, Colonel, you have sworn to that once before, but I will trust you again upon one condition. You say that you are convinced that your vote was wrong. Your acknowledgment of it will do more good than beating you for it. If, as you go around the district, you will tell people about this vote, and that you are satisfied it was wrong, I will not only vote for you, but will do what I can to keep down opposition, and, perhaps, I may exert some little influence in that way."

    "If I don't," said I, "I wish I may be shot; and to convince you that I am in earnest in what I say, I will come back this way in a week or ten days, and if you will get up a gathering of the people, I will make a speech to them. Get up a barbecue, and I will pay for it."

    "No, Colonel, we are not rich people in this section, but we have plenty of provisions to contribute for a barbecue, and some to spare for those who have none. The push of crops will be over in a few days, and we can then afford a day for a barbecue. This is Thursday; I will see to getting it up on Saturday week. Come to my house on Friday, and we will go together, and I promise you a very respectable crowd to see and hear you."

    "Well, I will be here. But one thing more before I say good-bye. I must know your name."

    "My name is Bunce."

    "Not Horatio Bunce?"

    "Yes."

    "Well, Mr. Bunce, I never saw you before, though you say you have seen me; but I know you very well. I am glad I have met you, and very proud that I may hope to have you for my friend. You must let me shake your hand before I go."

    We shook hands and parted.

    It was one of the luckiest hits of my life that I met him. He mingled but little with the public, but was widely known for his remarkable intelligence and incorruptible integrity, and for a heart brimful and running over with kindness and benevolence, which showed themselves not only in words but in acts. He was the oracle of the whole country around him, and his fame had extended far beyond the circle of his immediate acquaintance. Though I had never met him before, I had heard much of him, and but for this meeting it is very likely I should have had opposition, and had been beaten. One thing is very certain, no man could now stand up in that district under such a vote.

    At the appointed time I was at his house, having told our conversation to every crowd I had met, and to every man I stayed all night with, and I found that it gave the people an interest and a confidence in me stronger than I had ever seen manifested before.
    Though I was considerably fatigued when I reached his house, and, under ordinary circumstances, should have gone early to bed, I kept him up until midnight, talking about the principles and affairs of government, and got more real, true knowledge of them than I had got all my life before.

    I have told you Mr. Bunce converted me politically. He came nearer converting me religiously than I had ever been before. He did not make a very good Christian of me, as you know; but he has wrought upon my mind a conviction of the truth of Christianity, and upon my feelings a reverence for its purifying and elevating power such as I had never felt before.

    I have known and seen much of him since, for I respect him – no, that is not the word – I reverence and love him more than any living man, and I go to see him two or three times every year; and I will tell you, sir, if everyone who professes to be a Christian lived and acted and enjoyed it as he does, the religion of Christ would take the world by storm.

    But to return to my story. The next morning we went to the barbecue, and, to my surprise, found about a thousand men there. I met a good many whom I had not known before, and they and my friend introduced me around until I had got pretty well acquainted – at least, they all knew me.

    In due time notice was given that I would speak to them. They gathered around a stand that had been erected. I opened my speech by saying:
    "Fellow citizens – I present myself before you today feeling like a new man. My eyes have lately been opened to truths which ignorance or prejudice, or both, had heretofore hidden from my view. I feel that I can today offer you the ability to render you more valuable service than I have ever been able to render before. I am here today more for the purpose of acknowledging my error than to seek your votes. That I should make this acknowledgment is due to myself as well as to you. Whether you will vote for me is a matter for your consideration only."

    I went on to tell them about the fire and my vote for the appropriation as I have told it to you, and then told them why I was satisfied it was wrong. I closed by saying:

    "And now, fellow citizens, it remains only for me to tell you that the most of the speech you have listened to with so much interest was simply a repetition of the arguments by which your neighbor, Mr. Bunce, convinced me of my error.

    "It is the best speech I ever made in my life, but he is entitled to the credit of it. And now I hope he is satisfied with his convert and that he will get up here and tell you so."

    He came upon the stand and said:
    "Fellow citizens – It affords me great pleasure to comply with the request of Colonel Crockett. I have always considered him a thoroughly honest man, and I am satisfied that he will faithfully perform all that he has promised you today."

    He went down, and there went up from the crowd such a shout for Davy Crockett as his name never called forth before.
    I am not much given to tears, but I was taken with a choking then and felt some big drops rolling down my cheeks. And I tell you now that the remembrance of those few words spoken by such a man, and the honest, hearty shout they produced, is worth more to me than all the honors I have received and all the reputation I have ever made, or ever shall make, as a member of Congress.

    "Now, Sir," concluded Crockett, "you know why I made that speech yesterday. I have had several thousand copies of it printed and was directing them to my constituents when you came in.

    "There is one thing now to which I will call your attention. You remember that I proposed to give a week's pay. There are in that House many very wealthy men – men who think nothing of spending a week's pay, or a dozen of them for a dinner or a wine party when they have something to accomplish by it. Some of those same men made beautiful speeches upon the great debt of gratitude which the country owed the deceased – a debt which could not be paid by money, particularly so insignificant a sum as $10,000, when weighed against the honor of the nation. Yet not one of them responded to my proposition. Money with them is nothing but trash when it is to come out of the people. But it is the one great thing for which most of them are striving, and many of them sacrifice honor, integrity, and justice to obtain it."

    I am the last remaining Indian, looking for the place where the buffalo roam.
    In August and everything after, man them buffalo ain't never comin' home

    -Adam Duritz - August and Everything After

    Support the tenth amendment center and nullify now. search it and read about it.

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    Default Re: Rethinking Socialized Medicine

    Freedom to willingly trading value for value and voluntary charity. That's what made America an ideal to be cherished for the whole world. No there is no guarantee that there will not be crime and corruption in any human society, but willingly allowing theft by government exacerbates that condition. It (theft and corruption) becomes the moral fiber of a Nation once it is the accepted norm.
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    In August and everything after, man them buffalo ain't never comin' home

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    Default Re: Rethinking Socialized Medicine

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldWampum View Post
    What a ...........................
    [/SIZE][/FONT]

    I dont know what youre going on about GW. If you want to defend big pharma just say it. I dont and wont.


    You may have misunderstood me, my point is I dont have any use at all for western medicine, socialized or not. Its all junk science and you get sicker from taking part in it than you do sittin on the sidelines.


    And well. I am a libertarian so I certainly do not support welfare as you and most everyone else defines it.


    Ayurvedic is my preference.

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  31. Post #77

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    Default Re: Rethinking Socialized Medicine

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian View Post
    No freaking way. That doesn't even pass the sniff test! One every 12 seconds is 5/minute!

    5/min * 60min = 300/hr
    300/hr * 24hrs = 7200/day
    7200/day * 365 days = 2,628,000 / year, more people than die of ALL CAUSES in the US every year.
    Good catch Julian, thanks for the correction. The error wasn't intentional

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldWampum View Post
    Freedom to willingly trading value for value and voluntary charity. That's what made America an ideal to be cherished for the whole world. No there is no guarantee that there will not be crime and corruption in any human society, but willingly allowing theft by government exacerbates that condition. It (theft and corruption) becomes the moral fiber of a Nation once it is the accepted norm.
    Isn't that why churches and charities have tax free status? So they can do charitable work for the less fortunate? Oh Christians will set up the soup kitchens at churches but the church doesn't pay for it out of their coffers. So religion is fallible to theft and coruption at taxpayers expense too.

  32. Post #78

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    Default Re: Rethinking Socialized Medicine

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldWampum View Post
    ...

    But once again I'll go back to the crux of the issue. Healthcare at someone else's expense can in no way, shape or form be submitted as a right, but a privilege.

    ...
    While I agree with that statement, it shows your incongruency.

    According to you, it is precisely an agreement between a majority of individuals that creates rights. So, if a majority agrees that healthcare at someone else's expense is a right, that's all it takes.

    Now you say otherwise and seem to understand that there is a different test rights must pass to be legitimate.
    Reason, not might, makes right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzo View Post
    I dont know what youre going on about GW. If you want to defend big pharma just say it. I dont and wont.


    You may have misunderstood me, my point is I dont have any use at all for western medicine, socialized or not. Its all junk science and you get sicker from taking part in it than you do sittin on the sidelines.


    And well. I am a libertarian so I certainly do not support welfare as you and most everyone else defines it.


    Ayurvedic is my preference.
    What I support is the Constitution. This is just more herring gonzo. And if you support programs such as national healthcare you are no libertarian. Neither do you support the Constitution or foundation of America. By definition that is impossible.

    You talk a good story, but you are a liberal. That's your choice but please... don't deny.
    I am the last remaining Indian, looking for the place where the buffalo roam.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libertaurum View Post
    While I agree with that statement, it shows your incongruency.

    According to you, it is precisely an agreement between a majority of individuals that creates rights. So, if a majority agrees that healthcare at someone else's expense is a right, that's all it takes.

    Now you say otherwise and seem to understand that there is a different test rights must pass to be legitimate.
    I don't need your horseshit. Complete with vague innuendo and short of substance. Start a new thread if you want to discuss my faults. Don't garbage this one up...

    I already know you are dishonest, so don't expect me to take your attacks seriously.
    Last edited by GoldWampum; 07-26-2010 at 12:50 PM.
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    Support the tenth amendment center and nullify now. search it and read about it.

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    Default Re: Rethinking Socialized Medicine

    Quote Originally Posted by Brio View Post
    Good catch Julian, thanks for the correction. The error wasn't intentional



    Isn't that why churches and charities have tax free status? So they can do charitable work for the less fortunate? Oh Christians will set up the soup kitchens at churches but the church doesn't pay for it out of their coffers. So religion is fallible to theft and coruption at taxpayers expense too.
    You folks want to discuss anything but the topic don't ? I have no idea why churches have tax exempt status and whether or not I agree with it is really not germane to what I've shown and said. Charitable contributions are tax deductible for all of us. I don't go to church or study their status.

    Please, if you are going to point out my errors, take them from what I've written. I kinda hoped you might be above that typical liberal bullshit style of argument.
    I am the last remaining Indian, looking for the place where the buffalo roam.
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    Support the tenth amendment center and nullify now. search it and read about it.

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    Default Re: Rethinking Socialized Medicine

    Let me repeat the phrase, which you socialists have no answer for: You do not have an individual right to the property or services of someone else. Period.

    You people that argue for Universal Healthcare have not received an education in the history of civilization. It can not work. It never has and it never will. It will fail for the exact same reasons that Social Security will fail. What do you think is going to happen to the healthcare benefits of Canadians when the Canadian govt goes bankrupt? The first people in line for any socialist/welfare program always benefit (old people), and the people that come in later get left holding the bag (younger people). It is nothing but a transfer of wealth from the pocket of one person to the pocket of another, and at the end everyone suffers for it. You need to read Atlas Shrugged.

    Besides the fact that it is morally reprehensible, it simply does not work in the long run.

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    Default Re: Rethinking Socialized Medicine

    On the other hand, I can always tell when I've got you lib's over the barrel. You all come out of the woodwork with unrelated bullshit a sling it like monkeys sling poo.

    Address what I've posted please. I took the time to do so and look some things up. Or STFU and don't bother me.
    I am the last remaining Indian, looking for the place where the buffalo roam.
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    Support the tenth amendment center and nullify now. search it and read about it.

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    Default Re: Rethinking Socialized Medicine

    Quote Originally Posted by Tecumseh View Post
    I have no special information or knowledge but it seems to me that a good model for healthcare can be found in some of the elective procedures. My wife had Lasik surgery done about a year ago. The results were better than expected and the facility was beautiful (served warm cookies and Starbucks coffee in a reading room with a look through fireplace).
    It seems to me that the quality of the care has gone up while the price has continued to go down - I suspect because of the lack of government (Medicare) involvement, the effect of the free market, and because there is no requirement (yet) to provide free care and services to those unwilling or unable to pay. I've heard that many cosmetic surgeries have also become cheaper and better over time.
    It is a difficult issue because everyone needs some health care at some point in their lives and not everyone can afford it. Based on my limited experience with my family doctor (who has a large Medicare client base) the poor definitely over consume health care but I also believe that they have to have some access to it. I've heard Ron Paul say in interviews that nobody in America was ever showing up at emergency rooms and not getting care because of the lack of ability to pay. I'm not sure what the exact fix is but our overall health system seems to be getting worse not better for the average American.
    Yep, Lasik surgery, and breast augmentation too. Very cheap procedures. Thats because there is free market competition and less govt interference.

    People are blind to the fact that it is govt that increases health care costs not the free market. Getting rid of govt is the answer, not giving govt complete control.

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    Default Re: Rethinking Socialized Medicine

    According to you, it is precisely an agreement between a majority of individuals that creates rights. So, if a majority agrees that healthcare at someone else's expense is a right, that's all it takes.
    That sir, is another one of your blatant assed attack lies. And I'm getting downright sick of you intentionally and falsely impuning my character in public. Cease and desist. I never said such. I refer to the Constitution and other founding documents, not the majority. That's why I am addressing it from a US standpoint by the way and don't give a flying f**k how China, Japan, Canada, or Europe handle it.
    I am the last remaining Indian, looking for the place where the buffalo roam.
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    Support the tenth amendment center and nullify now. search it and read about it.

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    Default Re: Rethinking Socialized Medicine

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldWampum View Post
    What I support is the Constitution. This is just more herring gonzo. And if you support programs such as national healthcare you are no libertarian. Neither do you support the Constitution or foundation of America. By definition that is impossible.

    You talk a good story, but you are a liberal. That's your choice but please... don't deny.
    Please post where I have ever said I support national healthcare. Youre going on and on about facts, well, lets see where I have said that. I never have, youre making things up GW.

    WTF? Seriously dude. Youre confusing me with someone else. I have never even discussed healthcare in any form on this forum lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldWampum View Post
    That sir, is another one of your blatant assed attack lies.
    Is that so? Are you now denying that you proposed that it is by agreement that rights are created?

    Let's refer to your own statements:

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldWampum View Post
    That's right, agreed to beliefs, like I said.

    Your opinion and "beliefs" noted. You are coming around. You are at least beginning to realize that all your preaching is just belief, not fact. Fact is, what folks agree to is what is. If enough believe that this list or that list is a list of Natural Rights and agree to protect those as Natural Rights, then they are recognized as natural rights. That becomes an agreed to Law of the Land (man's law). That's a good description of our "agreed to" system here in the States. On the other hand, God's Law or Natural Law is defined and determined by the Universe. Those Laws are not capable of being broken.

    And your beliefs are simply "your beliefs" and have no bearing on Law of any kind.

    Interesting thread.
    So, if "folks agree" that healthcare is a right, is it or is it not, and why?

    Simple question, GW.

    And I'm getting downright sick of you intentionally and falsely impuning my character in public. Cease and desist. I never said such. I refer to the Constitution and other founding documents, not the majority. That's why I am addressing it from a US standpoint by the way and don't give a flying f**k how China, Japan, Canada, or Europe handle it.
    You did say such, as posted above: "If enough believe that this list or that list is a list of Natural Rights and agree to protect those as Natural Rights, then they are recognized as natural rights."

    So please, save the drama. I am not attacking you, I am questioning your ideas. You, on the other hand, have repeatedly responded with ad-hominem and personal attack; try to do better.

    "Few discoveries are more irritating than those which expose the pedigree of ideas." -Lord Acton
    Reason, not might, makes right.

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    Default Re: Rethinking Socialized Medicine

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldWampum View Post
    That sir, is another one of your blatant assed attack lies. And I'm getting downright sick of you intentionally and falsely impuning my character in public. Cease and desist. I never said such. I refer to the Constitution and other founding documents, not the majority. That's why I am addressing it from a US standpoint by the way and don't give a flying f**k how China, Japan, Canada, or Europe handle it.

    What the hell happened to the GW I knew and respected all these years. This isnt you man. Youre an imposter. GW doesnt carry himself like this^^^.

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    Default Re: Rethinking Socialized Medicine

    There is no point to maning the pumps when the ferry is already decomposed and rotted from years spent on the bottom of the channel.

    I've paid a tax to pay for access to a socialized medicine plan (medicare) for my entire life, it was a contractual agreement between me and the Feds executed via the Social Security Department and the IRS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzo View Post
    What the hell happened to the GW I knew and respected all these years. This isnt you man. Youre an imposter. GW doesnt carry himself like this^^^.
    Our agreements were about excluding people from freedom based on race, ethnicity etc. Beyond that it seems, your views are waaaay tooo liberal for me. I am a Constitutional Conservative with libertarian leanings... 100% libertarian (as some see it) is something I view as any other extremist view. ie non reality. The way you and lib and some others view libertarianism is to me outside the Constitution. I think what I've shown is what was Constitutionally intended for limited government in the US. You all seem to disregard that Constitution and the foundation of the US.

    I see this all very clearly and don't have the apparent conflict that some of you seem to see. But then that's because I see the Constitution and founding documents as the law of the land. You all seem to see it as an obstruction to some of your liberal views. Remember... rights are agreements, not inherent. That's why things like Constitutions are necessary.

    I would think that if you sit back and consider without bias, you will see the logic behind what I have been saying. If not? Oh well, maybe someday.
    I am the last remaining Indian, looking for the place where the buffalo roam.
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    Support the tenth amendment center and nullify now. search it and read about it.

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    Default Re: Rethinking Socialized Medicine

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldWampum View Post
    You folks want to discuss anything but the topic don't ? I have no idea why churches have tax exempt status and whether or not I agree with it is really not germane to what I've shown and said. Charitable contributions are tax deductible for all of us. I don't go to church or study their status.

    Please, if you are going to point out my errors, take them from what I've written. I kinda hoped you might be above that typical liberal bullshit style of argument.
    Whoa now cowboy, I was agreeing with your comment that charities (like churches) are for helping people and pointed out that to do so they receive tax exempt status. Perhaps I phrased it poorly...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brio View Post
    Whoa now cowboy, I was agreeing with your comment that charities (like churches) are for helping people and pointed out that to do so they receive tax exempt status. Perhaps I phrased it poorly...
    Sorry Brio (Cowgirl)... I read it as questioning the tax exempt status... my bad. In my area the Churches still do a great deal in helping the poor. Unfortunately many of the Churches across the country do not live up to it these days other than to take advantage. Especially in the metro areas. I can remember when the Church Hospitals used to absorb a lot as well. Not so much these days but that seems to be the trend here. More social programs, less incentive to volunteer. We have developed a "I gave at the office" mentality IMO.
    I am the last remaining Indian, looking for the place where the buffalo roam.
    In August and everything after, man them buffalo ain't never comin' home

    -Adam Duritz - August and Everything After

    Support the tenth amendment center and nullify now. search it and read about it.

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    Default Re: Rethinking Socialized Medicine

    GoldWampum, what you think of as charity is what I think of as National Health Insurance- I fully expect to pay for it much as the Canadians, British, French, and Aussies do. This is my tax money being spent to benefit my fellow citizens now, and, myself later in life. If your objection is to paying ALL taxes, then I will respect that.

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    Default Re: Rethinking Socialized Medicine

    Quote Originally Posted by latemetal View Post
    GoldWampum, what you think of as charity is what I think of as National Health Insurance- I fully expect to pay for it much as the Canadians, British, French, and Aussies do. This is my tax money being spent to benefit my fellow citizens now, and, myself later in life. If your objection is to paying ALL taxes, then I will respect that.
    If it were completely voluntary, rather than mandated by law, I would be all for it. But the moment it is mandated and based on the creation of a false "right" (the right to healthcare), it becomes tyranny.

    Healthcare isn't a right, not even if a majority decides it is.
    Reason, not might, makes right.

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    I object to unfunded wars, bailing out crooked bankers, supporting foreign countries, bailing out failing car companies,Nasa, farm subsidies, gun control, and a whole host of ways the Federal, State, County, and Town Governments have found to spend my tax dollar. This time, I'm saying O.K., if we must do this then, let us do it right. Or we can just cancel taxes altogether. Eliminating VA hospitals would be part of the savings.

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    Default Re: Rethinking Socialized Medicine

    GW just so you will now know, churches are tax exempt because of that little thing called the "wall of separation." The First Amendment to the Constitution says as follows: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ."


    More commonly known as the separation of church and state.


    So, now you know why churches are tax exempt.

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    Default Re: Rethinking Socialized Medicine

    Axe falls on NHS services

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/79...-services.html
    NHS bosses have drawn up secret plans for sweeping cuts to services, with restrictions on the most basic treatments for the sick and injured.


    By Laura Donnelly, Health Correspondent
    Published: 9:19PM BST 24 Jul 2010
    124 Comments


    The NHS faces extensive cuts Photo: ALAMY


    Some of the most common operations — including hip replacements and cataract surgery — will be rationed as part of attempts to save billions of pounds, despite government promises that front-line services would be protected.

    Patients’ groups have described the measures as “astonishingly brutal”.

    <!-- BEFORE ACI -->
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    An investigation by The Sunday Telegraph has uncovered widespread cuts planned across the NHS, many of which have already been agreed by senior health service officials. They include:
    * Restrictions on some of the most basic and common operations, including hip and knee replacements, cataract surgery and orthodontic procedures.
    * Plans to cut hundreds of thousands of pounds from budgets for the terminally ill, with dying cancer patients to be told to manage their own symptoms if their condition worsens at evenings or weekends.
    * The closure of nursing homes for the elderly.
    * A reduction in acute hospital beds, including those for the mentally ill, with targets to discourage GPs from sending patients to hospitals and reduce the number of people using accident and emergency departments.
    * Tighter rationing of NHS funding for IVF treatment, and for surgery for obesity.
    * Thousands of job losses at NHS hospitals, including 500 staff to go at a trust where cancer patients recently suffered delays in diagnosis and treatment because of staff shortages.
    * Cost-cutting programmes in paediatric and maternity services, care of the elderly and services that provide respite breaks to long-term carers.
    The Sunday Telegraph found the details of hundreds of cuts buried in obscure appendices to lengthy policy and strategy documents published by trusts. In most cases, local communities appear to be unaware of the plans.
    Dr Peter Carter, the head of the Royal College of Nursing, said he was “incredibly worried” about the disclosures.
    He urged Andrew Lansley, the Health Secretary, to “get a grip” on the reality of what was going on in the NHS.
    The Government has promised to protect the overall budget of the NHS, which will continue to receive above-inflation increases, but said the service must make “efficiency savings” of up to £20 billion by 2014, which would be diverted back to the front line.
    Mr Lansley said last month: “This protection for the NHS is protection for patients – to ensure that the sick do not pay for the debt crisis.”
    Dr Carter said: “Andrew Lansley keeps saying that the Government will protect the front line from cuts – but the reality appears to be quite the opposite. We are seeing trusts making job cuts even when they have already admitted to being short staffed.
    ‘‘The statements he makes may be well intentioned – but we would implore him to get a grip on the reality, because these kinds of cuts are incredibly worrying.”
    Katherine Murphy, of the Patients Association, said the cuts were “astonishingly brutal” and expressed particular concern at moves to ration operations such as hip and knee operations.
    “These are not unusual procedures, this is a really blatant attempt to save money by leaving people in pain,” she said.
    “Looking at these kinds of cuts, which trusts have drawn up in such secrecy, it particularly worries me how far they disadvantage the elderly and the vulnerable.
    ‘‘We cannot return to the days of people waiting in pain for years for a hip operation or having to pay for operations privately.”
    She added that it was “incredibly cruel” to draw up savings plans based on denying care to the dying.
    On Thursday, the board of Sutton and Merton primary care trust (PCT) in London agreed more than £50 million of savings in two years. The plan included more than £400,000 to be saved by “reducing length of stay” in hospital for the terminally ill.
    As well as sending more patients home to die, the paper said the savings would be made by admitting fewer terminally ill cancer patients to hospital because they were struggling to cope with symptoms such as pain. Instead, more patients would be given advice on “self management” of their condition.
    Bill Gillespie, the trust’s chief executive, said patients would stay at home, or be discharged from hospital only if that was their choice, and would be given support in their homes.
    This week, Hertfordshire PCT plans to discuss attempts to reduce spending by rationing more than 50 common procedures, including hip and knee replacements, cataract surgery and orthodontic treatment.
    Doctors across the county have already been told that their patients can have the operations only if they are given “prior approval” by the PCT, with each authorisation made on a “case by case” basis.
    Elsewhere, new restrictions have been introduced to limit funding of IVF.
    While many infertile couples living in Yorkshire had previously been allowed two cycles of treatment — still short of national guidance to fund three cycles — all the primary care trusts in the county are now restricting treatment to one cycle per couple.
    A “turnaround” plan drawn up by Peterborough PCT intends to make almost £100 million of savings by 2013.
    Its cuts include closing nursing and residential homes and services for the mentally ill, sending 500 fewer patients to hospital each month, and cutting £17 million from acute and accident and emergency services.
    Two weeks ago, Mid Yorkshire Hospitals trust agreed plans to save £55 million in two years, with £20 million coming from about 500 job losses.
    Yet, a month before the decision was taken, senior managers at a board meeting described how staff shortages were already causing delays for patients being diagnosed and treated for breast cancer.
    Mr Lansley said any trusts that interpreted the Government’s demands for efficiency savings as budget or service cuts were wrong to do so, and were “living in the past”.
    I'm a jeenyus, and i approve this massage.

  54. Post #98

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    Default Re: Rethinking Socialized Medicine

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldWampum View Post
    Our agreements were about excluding people from freedom based on race, ethnicity etc. Beyond that it seems, your views are waaaay tooo liberal for me. I am a Constitutional Conservative with libertarian leanings... 100% libertarian (as some see it) is something I view as any other extremist view. ie non reality. The way you and lib and some others view libertarianism is to me outside the Constitution. I think what I've shown is what was Constitutionally intended for limited government in the US. You all seem to disregard that Constitution and the foundation of the US.

    I see this all very clearly and don't have the apparent conflict that some of you seem to see. But then that's because I see the Constitution and founding documents as the law of the land. You all seem to see it as an obstruction to some of your liberal views. Remember... rights are agreements, not inherent. That's why things like Constitutions are necessary.

    I would think that if you sit back and consider without bias, you will see the logic behind what I have been saying. If not? Oh well, maybe someday.

    Where do you get the idea I am a liberal?

    I favor very small, fiscially conservative and responsible govt with more state rights and less centralized power. I favor people over govt always and govt should be a last resort. I favor legalization of drugs and prostitution and ALL VICTIMLESS crimes for that matter, if there is no victim there is no crime. I do not favor welfare although I recognize that some people do need help now and then and I have no personal problem contributing to whatever fund there is to help those people temporarily until they get back on their feet. I favor people traveling and moving freely as they so choose without a need to ask the state for permission to do so. I believe that all men, women and children have certain natural rights no matter their color, ethnicity, creed or where they are from and that those rights go with them everywhere they go, those rights do not begin nor end at borders or checkpoints or lines drawn in the sand my Nationalists.


    I could go on but these are hardly liberal positions.


    Am I socially liberal? Sure, I believe people should be left alone to do as they please as long as they are not hurting or bringing harm to others, social conservatism, like that of right wing christian types, is not my thing, perhaps this is where you see me as a 'liberal?"


    Reading your views lately I see you as a NATIONALIST more than anything else, I mean its pretty obvious that is exactly what you are. You favor nationalism over all else.

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    Default Re: Rethinking Socialized Medicine

    Quote Originally Posted by gonzo View Post
    GW just so you will now know, churches are tax exempt because of that little thing called the "wall of separation." The First Amendment to the Constitution says as follows: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ."


    More commonly known as the separation of church and state.



    So, now you know why churches are tax exempt.
    As I said it really doesn't pertain to this conversation, so it's not ignorance that kept me from discussing it, but to avoid the usual misdirections.
    I am the last remaining Indian, looking for the place where the buffalo roam.
    In August and everything after, man them buffalo ain't never comin' home

    -Adam Duritz - August and Everything After

    Support the tenth amendment center and nullify now. search it and read about it.

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    Angry After bailing out the bankers...

    When they got done bailing out the banks, they were broke and finally admitted it. The plans call for a 20% cut, but will most likely come in 10%, very doable.
    Quote Originally Posted by GOLDZILLA View Post
    Axe falls on NHS services

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/79...-services.html
    NHS bosses have drawn up secret plans for sweeping cuts to services, with restrictions on the most basic treatments for the sick and injured.


    By Laura Donnelly, Health Correspondent
    Published: 9:19PM BST 24 Jul 2010
    124 Comments


    The NHS faces extensive cuts Photo: ALAMY


    Some of the most common operations — including hip replacements and cataract surgery — will be rationed as part of attempts to save billions of pounds, despite government promises that front-line services would be protected.

    Patients’ groups have described the measures as “astonishingly brutal”.

    <!-- BEFORE ACI -->
    Related Articles




    An investigation by The Sunday Telegraph has uncovered widespread cuts planned across the NHS, many of which have already been agreed by senior health service officials. They include:
    * Restrictions on some of the most basic and common operations, including hip and knee replacements, cataract surgery and orthodontic procedures.
    * Plans to cut hundreds of thousands of pounds from budgets for the terminally ill, with dying cancer patients to be told to manage their own symptoms if their condition worsens at evenings or weekends.
    * The closure of nursing homes for the elderly.
    * A reduction in acute hospital beds, including those for the mentally ill, with targets to discourage GPs from sending patients to hospitals and reduce the number of people using accident and emergency departments.
    * Tighter rationing of NHS funding for IVF treatment, and for surgery for obesity.
    * Thousands of job losses at NHS hospitals, including 500 staff to go at a trust where cancer patients recently suffered delays in diagnosis and treatment because of staff shortages.
    * Cost-cutting programmes in paediatric and maternity services, care of the elderly and services that provide respite breaks to long-term carers.
    The Sunday Telegraph found the details of hundreds of cuts buried in obscure appendices to lengthy policy and strategy documents published by trusts. In most cases, local communities appear to be unaware of the plans.
    Dr Peter Carter, the head of the Royal College of Nursing, said he was “incredibly worried” about the disclosures.
    He urged Andrew Lansley, the Health Secretary, to “get a grip” on the reality of what was going on in the NHS.
    The Government has promised to protect the overall budget of the NHS, which will continue to receive above-inflation increases, but said the service must make “efficiency savings” of up to £20 billion by 2014, which would be diverted back to the front line.
    Mr Lansley said last month: “This protection for the NHS is protection for patients – to ensure that the sick do not pay for the debt crisis.”
    Dr Carter said: “Andrew Lansley keeps saying that the Government will protect the front line from cuts – but the reality appears to be quite the opposite. We are seeing trusts making job cuts even when they have already admitted to being short staffed.
    ‘‘The statements he makes may be well intentioned – but we would implore him to get a grip on the reality, because these kinds of cuts are incredibly worrying.”
    Katherine Murphy, of the Patients Association, said the cuts were “astonishingly brutal” and expressed particular concern at moves to ration operations such as hip and knee operations.
    “These are not unusual procedures, this is a really blatant attempt to save money by leaving people in pain,” she said.
    “Looking at these kinds of cuts, which trusts have drawn up in such secrecy, it particularly worries me how far they disadvantage the elderly and the vulnerable.
    ‘‘We cannot return to the days of people waiting in pain for years for a hip operation or having to pay for operations privately.”
    She added that it was “incredibly cruel” to draw up savings plans based on denying care to the dying.
    On Thursday, the board of Sutton and Merton primary care trust (PCT) in London agreed more than £50 million of savings in two years. The plan included more than £400,000 to be saved by “reducing length of stay” in hospital for the terminally ill.
    As well as sending more patients home to die, the paper said the savings would be made by admitting fewer terminally ill cancer patients to hospital because they were struggling to cope with symptoms such as pain. Instead, more patients would be given advice on “self management” of their condition.
    Bill Gillespie, the trust’s chief executive, said patients would stay at home, or be discharged from hospital only if that was their choice, and would be given support in their homes.
    This week, Hertfordshire PCT plans to discuss attempts to reduce spending by rationing more than 50 common procedures, including hip and knee replacements, cataract surgery and orthodontic treatment.
    Doctors across the county have already been told that their patients can have the operations only if they are given “prior approval” by the PCT, with each authorisation made on a “case by case” basis.
    Elsewhere, new restrictions have been introduced to limit funding of IVF.
    While many infertile couples living in Yorkshire had previously been allowed two cycles of treatment — still short of national guidance to fund three cycles — all the primary care trusts in the county are now restricting treatment to one cycle per couple.
    A “turnaround” plan drawn up by Peterborough PCT intends to make almost £100 million of savings by 2013.
    Its cuts include closing nursing and residential homes and services for the mentally ill, sending 500 fewer patients to hospital each month, and cutting £17 million from acute and accident and emergency services.
    Two weeks ago, Mid Yorkshire Hospitals trust agreed plans to save £55 million in two years, with £20 million coming from about 500 job losses.
    Yet, a month before the decision was taken, senior managers at a board meeting described how staff shortages were already causing delays for patients being diagnosed and treated for breast cancer.
    Mr Lansley said any trusts that interpreted the Government’s demands for efficiency savings as budget or service cuts were wrong to do so, and were “living in the past”.

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