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$20,000 U.S. dollars to invest into PM's

Discussion in 'Purchasing Precious Metals' started by Paranoid Android, Mar 1, 2017.



  1. Paranoid Android

    Paranoid Android New Member

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    Just pulled a bunch of money out of the stock market.

    Want to put a portion into PM's

    Do not have any currently.

    Need to sell PM's purchase and hold plan to wife.

    Here is my plan. - Need some help/advice/criticism.

    Looking to put $15,000 into gold coins - Krugerrands

    Looking to put $5,000 into silver coins - Libertads

    Leaning toward buying online.

    Will house in vault in a small-medium city bank vault - where I am a customer. They have security guards.

    What do you think of this?

    Cheers
     
  2. Scorpio

    Scorpio Скорпион Founding Member Board Elder Site Mgr Site Supporter ++

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    when I had krugs, they were treated like bullion on the sell, pretty much worthless to pay any premium over bullion premium for them.

    we have backers of Libers here

    If starting out, check into the buy price and then the 'sell to us' pricing, and you will be able to figure out which ones bleed the most on selling back.

    Many of us try to find the silver as close to spot as possible in less than 10 oz sizes in order to front run fakes. Buy only from reputable dealers who use 'spec testing' to insure the stuff is real. Fakes are getting better and more widespread all the time. When selling, you have to also be able to prove your stuff is 'real'.

    http://www.jmbullion.com/gold/

    http://www.jmbullion.com/silver/
     
  3. Weatherman

    Weatherman In GIM since 2006 Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    Congrats on your haul from the stock market, and on your plan to park some of it into precious metals. Ask your wife what you can do if your cash is in a bank account when all the banks close and take 50% as a bail in. That has already happened, more or less, in Europe, and it will surely happen in the USA too.

    My advice has been consistent for the past 15 years: buy Silver! I have not yet heard any good reasons to guess that gold will appreciate faster than silver, and I know of many reasons to expect silver to do much better. I also don't know of anyone who is willing to bet that the price of gold will double to $2,500 before the price of silver doubles to $37.

    For storage, review the part of your explanation to the wife about banks closing. That alone should be sufficient incentive to keep your metal out of a bank. The common refrain is "If you don't hold it, you don't own it!" My version is to store your metal in a safe location where you can get to it anytime you want, without needing the help or permission from anyone else. That does not include a big building with guards posted to keep you out when you want to get in.

    One last suggestion is for you and your wife to avoid telling ANYONE about what you have in metals. Brag about your stocks in your brokerage if you must, but the sounds of silence is a great song for gold and for silver too. More on that in the link below.

    When They Pry It From My Cold Dead Fingers
     
  4. glockngold

    glockngold Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Do you have a back yard & a shovel?
    With silver, you need a bigger hole.
    Some in a bank vault is fine, but diversify storage.
    If you need to get out of Dodge on a Sunday, how do you reach the vault?
     
  5. dacrunch

    dacrunch Gold Chaser Platinum Bling

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    I'm more in favor of "fractionals" in gold... rather than full ounces...

    Imagine that one day - long after the "big market crash" - gold starts REALLY "backing" economies.

    An ounce could achieve a "value" of over $50k...

    So when it comes time to sell one, there will be a lack of available "buyers" (at those "high values"), and it will be a "taxable transaction"...

    Yes, there is a high "premium" on US & Canadian "fractionals" (1 tenth or 1/4 ounce), but much less on some foreign smaller gold coins, like the French "Napoleons" 20 Francs, or British Sovereigns. Bought near bullion price, same for sale. (But easy to lose or misplace, so small, haha!)

    ....

    As for silver, seeing it's so "cheap" (well, not the $40 "top" a few years ago, nor the $4 "low" before that... or the "$500 potential post-crisis")... One ounce coins (Eagles & Maples) are fine with me, recognized everywhere. 100 oz bars get heavy to lug around. And if you buy a few tens of thousands of dollars of physical silver, you need a wheelbarrow to lug it around, while the same value in gold fits in your pockets. That can be an issue when "mobility" (and "concealment") is concerned.

    ...

    Then, there are the "numismatics"... a much more "restricted" market...

    For instance, I took a "graded" 1 oz Platinum Noble to the supposedly "biggest gold & silver dealer" in the city of Luxembourg - and he wouldn't even touch it. And for my silver Canadian Maple ounces, he was only offering me half spot price... Just a crook with a pretty shop. I've found that the City of Brussels in Belgium has the most "honest" dealers... but the coin shop wouldn't even quote my Platinum Noble... and as far as jewelry didn't even want to see it... Gave me the card for a jewelry shop. Paris (several shops on Rue Vivienne) sell "Roosters" at spot at the desk. But if you return to sell them, the French Gvmt has a tax, well over 10%... (so take them to Brussels for selling).

    The USA has a much more customer-friendly shop system for coins & bullion than Europe. Even Pawn Shops don't always "take you for a ride".

    And keep in mind that when time comes for selling - you'll have a much bigger "potential buyer base" on "recognizable" coins.... i.e. "local" ones. (Eagles & Maples being much more "well known" than Krugs & Libertads).
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2017
  6. Howdy

    Howdy Silver Member Silver Miner

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    Several large bullion dealers "took the money and ran" in the last decade. Take that into consideration when buying large quantities online. Local coin shops are usually a little more expensive but probably worth it.
    Another type of silver bullion is pre-1965 US dimes, quarters and half dollars. They are 90% silver. Sometimes the premium is higher than generic silver, sometimes nearly the same. I like it.
    I think silver is likely to double in value sooner than gold. I wouldn't let anyone store my metals. I live out in the country and bought a large yellow machine to bury my goodies.
     

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  7. ToBeSelfEvident

    ToBeSelfEvident Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    I would put at least half in silver, maybe three-quarters in silver. The quietest way to buy is by using cash at a coin show, but getting that much cash from your bank will be troublesome. A relationship with a local coin dealer can be useful as a means of building trust and having a friendly face to sell to when that day comes. But the easiest way to buy a large amount is to put in an order with the large national dealers like Apmex or Provident. There will be a record of your purchase, but your order will be filled quickly and the chance of getting fakes is minuscule.

    As for storage, the box at the bank isn't a horrible idea, but I would not put it all there. The bank can alter the rules at any time. Hedge your bets by keeping some at home in a safe place and maybe even put some of it in the ground. If it's a buy-and-hold strategy you will sleep better knowing some of it is out of the reach of house fires, natural disasters, robberies, etc.
     
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  8. Irons

    Irons Deep Sixed Site Supporter Mother Lode

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    66 Gold Sovereigns. Next question?

    .
     
  9. Paranoid Android

    Paranoid Android New Member

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    I like what I am hearing so far.....
     
  10. smooth

    smooth Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    I like your plan, and your % split. EXCEPT the part about the bank and the Libertads. Dont get me wrong, I love Libertads and they used to be pretty cheap but the premiums around here are pretty expensive. So unless there is a geographical reason for you to purchase them specifically I would look for something with a tighter buy/sell spread. As for gold, I like dont think you can go wrong with Krugerrands, but why not mix in some smaller coins as well? the cheapest fractionals you can find (likely old European coins). Keeps your PM's close and well hidden, and your lips tight. The best security is if nobody has a clue of what you own. And I would talk to your wife about this as well.

    Good luck
     
  11. Mr Paradise

    Mr Paradise Midas Member Midas Member

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    Don't waste your money on all this high premium 1oz gimmicky silver that's flooding the market ....it's 90's sports cards.

    Stick with 10oz bricks at .99 cents or less and 100oz bricks at .69 cents and under. I do like ATB's if you buy them at pre sale when they're only 2.99 or less.

    With gold I'd just wait for a 1oz maple sale at +$25 or less. Cheaper options in European or Mexican gold but I like the fact that they're popular, recognizable and .999.
     
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  12. GOLDBRIX

    GOLDBRIX God,Donald Trump,most in GIM2 I Trust. OTHERS-meh Site Supporter Platinum Bling

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    All these members who think putting ANY PMs in a safety deposit box is anywhere from O.K. to a "good idea" better read up on the SCOTUS rulings in Banking. Those rulings break down to WHAT a BANK HOLDS a BANK OWNS, Including what you believe is your savings account and checking account.

    A bank goes bankrupt or bank holiday occurs ALL ASSESTS are confiscated for liquidation. Safety Deposit Boxes WILL be opened objects of value are considered PROPERTY of the Bank and removed.

    SURE you can take the bank to court 5/6/7 years later you get a hearing ( after-all banks have a lot of customers and the BIG ONES will get pushed to the front of the line) and later a trial you'll probably win. But the actual physical property will be long gone and whatever YOU can PROVE what was in the box or boxes will receive a monetary value and you will receive a check for the amount as long as it is not over $250K . If over 250K YOUR ARE SCREWED AGAIN.

    If you use Storage Facilities hide some PMs in that locker/ property.
    Hide a safe in your house where it is not easily seen and not easy to get to by intruders ( in the back of clothes closet corners with shoe boxes or clothes burying it).
    Buried on your property, in or around outbuildings is good. Places on the property significant to you and not others is good too. Find areas where you can dig deep but relatively quickly and easy to uncover. ( The deeper less chance of metal detectors finding it).

    All my offerings and repeats of others here are all better than fighting a court case and its results.
     
  13. GOLDBRIX

    GOLDBRIX God,Donald Trump,most in GIM2 I Trust. OTHERS-meh Site Supporter Platinum Bling

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    Those 100 ozers are going to be harder to unload / liquidate. better have a buyer at the ready before you buy the first 100ozer. - IMO
     
  14. Irons

    Irons Deep Sixed Site Supporter Mother Lode

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    I will help more if possible.

    Whatever Gold coins you decide upon if you possibly can buy them in person with cash. Write out a cheat sheet before you go shopping so you know right around what you should pay for each coin, and stick to it. I tend to get a bit mesmerized when I see a display case full of Gold.
    Hit your local coin shops, but a great way to really nail some great deals with a wide range of choices is a coin show. Cash and carry and nobody gives a rip who you are or where you live. Google coin show followed by your zip code and plan ahead.

    Good luck, have fun and don't freaking tell anybody you know especially your kids. Kids talk.

    .
     
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  15. Paranoid Android

    Paranoid Android New Member

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    thanks - I stopped in to a local shop and he said 4% was above spot would be the selling price for the gold coins.
     
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  16. Mr Paradise

    Mr Paradise Midas Member Midas Member

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    I've been flipping 100oz bricks for over 20 years. There's always a buyer. The boys that sell high premium small stuff want you to think liquidating the big stuff is difficult.

    If the day comes when Hell is full and the dead walk the earth and silver goes to $10,000 an ounce (chuckles) ...well, I guess that's why god invented saws.

    I do agree with the safety deposit box. Only a fool would do those ....much safer in the reservoir tank of your toilet or your wife's flower garden.

    Cheers.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2017
  17. SilverBuyer

    SilverBuyer Silver Member Silver Miner

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    What price are you getting for your 100 ozers? In my experience its very difficult to find buyers at spot. If I wait for sales on 1 ozers I can get them for close to or even the same price over spot as 100 oz bars.

    I can unload 1 ozers quickly at a little over spot, making the spread significantly less for them. Your mileage may vary though.
     
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  18. Silvergun

    Silvergun Silver Member Silver Miner

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    If it were me I would slowly pull out cash to not raise any red flags. Then slowly use that cash to make purchases at local coin shops or coin shows with cash. Focus on avoiding premiums and buy 90% silver 1964 and earler dimes, quarters, half dollars (I like dimes personally because later they could be traded in mass for big purchases/trades or a few dimes for small purchases/trades), 1oz coins or even 10 oz silver bars. I wouldn't recommend going pass 10 oz bars to avoid possible issues down the road. I personally would invest most of it in silver because it is more devalued, IMO (do your own due diligence). Keep your eye on the gold/silver ratio to determine values. I would also recommend buying fractional gold as it will be easier to trade/sell with down the road. Even now a lot of people cannot afford a full 1 oz coin. Problem with fractional gold is it usually has high premiums, so you need to shop around. Slowly accumulate avoiding attention, red flags, etc. Loose lips sink ships.

    Also, if you don't hold it, you don't own it.

    If you don't already own any firearms or lead (ammo) you may want invest in that area as well for personal protection and security of your PMs.

    One last thing to note, I would advise avoiding PMs if you are planning on buying low and selling high, short term. It is one of the most volatile and manipulated market. You will get burned. PMs is a store of wealth over a long period of time. Almost like an insurance policy of sorts. Hedge against inflation, currency breakdown, etc. Buying a big position with the thought of selling short term is a good way to lose your ass. Its possible, but risky and I would advise against it. This is a point a lot of people miss. I have friends that sold their position low becuase they got scared. Thats exactly what the manipulators want. Hold, long term! I apologize in advance if im preaching to the choir on this.
     
  19. Howdy

    Howdy Silver Member Silver Miner

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    I never had problems selling 100 ounce bars in the past, although it's been about six years since I sold one and buyers are much more paranoid about fakes now than back then. There is still the sound test. If they ring like silver they are silver aren't they? Sometimes a perfectly good bar will not ring. Just sell it to a dealer when you get one of those.
     
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  20. Paranoid Android

    Paranoid Android New Member

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    I am going to be holding not selling.....
     
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  21. Hystckndle

    Hystckndle Daguerreotype Fanatic Site Mgr Site Supporter ++

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    Gold isn't the ONLY thing you are mesmerized by... :)
    Just sayin'
    ( sorry for the OT--I'm killing myself here )

    Regards to the OP,
    and I like the gold fractional idea.
    If you are feeling frisky, mayyyybe mix in some 10 oz silver bars as a % of the whole.
    You will get he feel of it after a few trips and doing some math.
    The math is always all over the place so you gotta figure out what you are comfortable with.
    Congrats for getting a bit out of the paper game.
    Haystack
     
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  22. dozer99

    dozer99 Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    OP, if you take one thing away from this thread it should be the saying "if you don't hold it, you don't own it"!

    No matter what you buy or in what size/denomination you get it in, Keep it out of a Bank......

    Good luck and have fun!
     
  23. GOLDBRIX

    GOLDBRIX God,Donald Trump,most in GIM2 I Trust. OTHERS-meh Site Supporter Platinum Bling

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    WATCH your Local Newspapers for "On-Site" Estate Auctions where the Real Estate is being sold along with the Personal Effects / Property.
    Most Ads will have a tease of the inventory or have a website where the inventory is listed.

    Most farms and rural auctions have some Gold/ Silver Coins and jewelry offers.
    As IRONS stated Do Your Home Work. DO NOT get "Auction Fever" know what you are willing to pay and don't get your feelings hurt if you get out bid. I've seen idiots BUY a 1/4 oz. gold bullion AGE for the price of a 1/2 oz at LCS.

    I have never got every thing I wanted but I have got items I thought I would not.
     
  24. Silver

    Silver Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    I would buy either American Gold Eagles or Buffalo's, and Silver Eagles. Nothing is more liquid on the selling side and there are no reporting requirements from the buyer (no 1099) - for any quantity or dollar amount. I've been selling some gold Buffalo's recently to a local dealer and APMEX - easy deals.

    I like Libertads and bought some a couple years ago with the lowest premium I had seen - but I live in a border county.

    edit to add: APMEX paid $16 over spot for the Buffs and charge about $59 over spot - so $44 difference between what they pay and what they charge. Local dealer only paid spot for the Buffs.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2017
  25. glockngold

    glockngold Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    True,
    Irons is fixated on coffee cups as well for some reason.
     
  26. rte

    rte Silver Member Silver Miner

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    Buy what you like at the lowest possible prices and store it at home in a safe.
    I wouldn't worry about the one ounce size being a problem to liquidate as you can always cut them up in pieces like the old days, then keep it on the down low.:secret:
     
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  27. Weatherman

    Weatherman In GIM since 2006 Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    You guys don't realize that each of those coffee cups has a Sovereign below and attached to the bottom of the cup. That's why he likes to look at those models drinking coffee - so he can gaze at the Sovereign while they tilt the cup to drink the coffee.
    :green tea:
     
  28. Weatherman

    Weatherman In GIM since 2006 Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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  29. ToBeSelfEvident

    ToBeSelfEvident Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    I get that, but at some point it makes sense to sell. There can be different reasons to sell. For instance, when silver was cheap, I bought 100-oz bars to get the cheapest price per ounce. Over the years I have sold a few for a nice profit, and twice I traded a 100-ouncer for roughly 95 ounces of smaller bars and coins. I got some rare art bars, some old-style poured bars, a beautiful 1-Kilo Kookaburra coin, etc. There's no fondle-factor with 100-oz bars, and I liked having the rarer and more interesting designs. My overall price per ounce went up a little, but the quality and rarity of my collection was greater.

    Or maybe you load up on 90% silver dimes. In some near future, the premium on these may rise so much it would create a good opportunity to trade the dimes for .999 coins and bars, adding ounces to your stack.

    Or, you can trade the gold-silver ratio. When the ratio is historically high, like now, you should buy silver. When the ratio is low, sell the silver and buy gold. If the ratio goes high again, sell the gold and buy silver. Your stack will get larger with each pair of trades, even though you are not putting in any new money.

    As for putting PMs in the ground, I saw nice new ammo boxes at Costco for $18.99. When I picked one up it seemed much too heavy. That's because there's a smaller 50mm ammo box inside the 30mm box! I thought the combo would be perfect for burying coins. The inner 50mm box (and its contents) would stay pristine inside the larger box. Not a bad cache system for $19.
     
  30. Bottom Feeder

    Bottom Feeder Hypophthalmichthys molitrix

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    Justa Suggestion from an old man:

    12 ¼ gold maples
    Keep $2000 in cash (20s-10s-5s)
    Keep $3000 in bank
    rest in SAEs

    Easy to spend, easy to hide, easy to run with.

    BF
     
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  31. Irons

    Irons Deep Sixed Site Supporter Mother Lode

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    Silver is a waste of time, IMO.

    GSR.jpg
     
  32. SilverBuyer

    SilverBuyer Silver Member Silver Miner

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    Yeah but at least some crackhead can't easily run away with your silver.
     
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  33. Paranoid Android

    Paranoid Android New Member

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    the 20,000 is earmarked specifically for PM's
     
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  34. Scorpio

    Scorpio Скорпион Founding Member Board Elder Site Mgr Site Supporter ++

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    before I would put anything in a bank deposit box, I would look at the alternatives.

    All of the larger dealers offer storage services now that are ex the system and banking. They will be insulated from any banking shenanigans unless they themselves go belly up.

    If you have a bank box, they can pretend you don't exist at any time and empty it.
    They can delete your parameters to access, making it incredibly difficult for you to prove it is in fact you that rented the thing.
    You die, and the bank takes it over, because they make it virtually impossible for someone else to get at it.
    They don't even want to let you at your box, let alone anyone else.

    You say great, I'll do a joint box...........yeah, great until that di-vorce comes along, and she sweeps the box prior to you getting to it. Then you will be mad.

    Or another, you go 10 toes up, and the bank won't let your heir in the box, especially if there is no will in place.

    The list is endless, with very very very very few positives to go with a bank vault.

    Bankers are people, nothing special about them. They are subject to the same delusions and fallacies as the avg 2 legger.
     
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  35. GOLDBRIX

    GOLDBRIX God,Donald Trump,most in GIM2 I Trust. OTHERS-meh Site Supporter Platinum Bling

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    Yeah ?, Look at your pic. Look at the barricade you could build with all that Silver. Might even stop a 50cal bullet if the barricade is built correctly.
    That SINGLE gold bar - Not a chance, even length wise.

    Wxman, Ya beat me to it. IRONS' Cup collect doesn't always mean coffee, BUT always means CUPS.
     
  36. Eyebone

    Eyebone Midas Member Midas Member

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    Hilarious.

    Made x amount, which is a lot more than an average know nothing and never heard of PMs yeah right.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2017
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  37. ttazzman

    ttazzman Midas Member Midas Member Site Supporter

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    I agree.....10oz silver bars ....and maples or eagles (lowest premium purchaseable).........in whatever ratio you feel fits you......i prefer 50/50 dollar wise for my personal life position....keep in mind silver is riskier but higher gains/losses...gold is more stable but lower gains/losses

    eagles both silver and gold are by far the easiest to sell when the time comes

    if wifey needs convincing there are always options like buying valcombi pure gold beads (apmex) and stringing them up on a necklace for her LOL

    one thing i noticed in your OP is your lack of purpose/reason for deciding to hold PMs...(reasons do make a difference in advice recieved)
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2017
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  38. Paranoid Android

    Paranoid Android New Member

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    thanks - I am going to get the cash from the banksters soon and hit my first coin show at the end of the month......any info on how to shop without looking like an idiot at the show?
     
  39. Irons

    Irons Deep Sixed Site Supporter Mother Lode

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    Go in with a list of things you want and approx how much you are willing to pay for each of them.
     
  40. ToBeSelfEvident

    ToBeSelfEvident Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Getting the cash from the banksters will likely trigger a SAR (Suspicious Activity Report) from your bank. Withdrawing as little a $3000 can trigger the report in some banks. Withdrawing $10,000 will definitely trigger a SAR. If you try to withdraw amounts under $10,000 in a short time period, this is called "structuring" and could lead to seizure of all your assets.

    As for the coin show, just relax and enjoy yourself. You, the buyer, are in the dominant position. There are hundreds of sellers competing for your cash. Look for the lowest prices on the PMs you are interested in. Talk to the dealers, ask questions, gather information, and develop contacts for the future. Get a card from any dealers you enjoy talking to or buying from. Play one dealer against another - "The guy on the next aisle is offering these for $18.50 an ounce. I'll buy 100 of yours right now if you can sell for $18.30 an ounce."

    Finally, if you plan to leave with a heavy bag of PMs, have some sort of strategy for getting out of there safely. Maybe have a friend attend the show with you and the friend can bring the car around to the entrance when you leave. There's nothing quite as scintillating as lugging a small untraceable fortune through a large parking lot in a strange city.
     
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