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5 Things Every Reasonable Gun Owner Ought To Know

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by SilverCity, Feb 13, 2016.



  1. SilverCity

    SilverCity Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    As a criminal defense attorney, I have been representing people charged with gun related criminal offenses for well over twenty years. During that time, I have been lead counsel in several hundred gun related criminal offenses including 1st-degree murder, drive-by shootings, aggravated assault, disorderly conduct, unlawful discharge and many more serious felony level offenses. I have represented people in countless misconduct with weapons and prohibited possessor criminal charges as well. In short, I have represented more people than I could possibly count in serious gun related criminal cases in both state and federal courts. There are few ways a person can get into big trouble more quickly than to misuse a firearm.

    The decision to keep and bear arms is a serious one. It is also a decision that necessarily comes with great responsibility. All gun owners are required to know and follow the law. As you have heard many times, ignorance of the law is no excuse. Especially in cases involving firearms, you would be well served to study the law, and to think about its application before carrying, or even owning, a firearm.

    This article is no substitute for studying the law regarding firearms and self-defense. Reading this article will not teach you everything you need to know about carrying or using a firearm; far from it. I recommend that all gun owners take an initial comprehensive gun safety class as well as a refresher class on a regular basis from a qualified instructor. Carrying a firearm is a huge responsibility. There is no room for error. I have seen many lives changed forever based on an erroneous split second decision or an honest mistake.

    This article is written to offer you some information based on my many years of personal experience representing people charged with gun related crimes. You are not likely to get this information in most firearms classes. If after reading it you become extremely conservative about pulling out your firearm, I have accomplished my purpose. As I often say at the countless legal seminars, I have presented at, “Don’t be an idiot with a gun.” I urge you to be a responsible gun owner and think carefully before you act. Your very freedom could well depend on it.

    More: https://www.lewrockwell.com/2016/02/marc-j-victor/carry-gun-america/

    Stay safe. Stay out of jail.

    SC
     
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  2. oldgaranddad

    oldgaranddad Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    One other point that we often teach in firearm safety classes is that even if you do have to use your firearm for self defense from potentially lethal harm or to aid another person from potentially lethal harm you must be prepared to understand that even if you are cleared of any criminality from your actions you will most likely wind up in civil court defending yourself from the relatives of the so-called misunderstood "honor student" drop out with a rap sheet longer than a trip to the moon.

    Unfortunately in many states like New York being in a dangerous place or situation is considered your fault according to many court decisions under the judiciary's warped doctrine of "duty to retreat" and what actually constitutes "fear of harm". One case that one of my fellow instructors used to cite in classes was a real corker. Did one, two or three blows of a aluminum softball bat constitute intent of bodily harm by his attacker? Thankfully the defendant eventually prevailed -- after several years and thousands of dollars of legal fees and court costs.

    By the way, these are the duty to retreat states: Arkansas, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Iowa, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Missouri, Minnesota, Nebraska, New Jersey, New York, North Dakota, Ohio, Rhode Island, Wisconsin, Wyoming.

    Wyoming and North Dakota always surprise me, and most others, as being "duty to retreat" states.
     
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  3. solarion

    solarion Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Dunno about all this firearm crap, but the decision to own a GUN or not is an easy one imo. If I'm forced to defend myself and/or my family and I have a GUN then I have a great many more options than if I do not. Nevermind what some legalese speaking puke has to say, if someone breaks into my home and I have time to call the sheriff then great. Hopefully "the boys" show up in time to save the intruders from the hail of bullets I'll be directing toward them, but I sure as hell ain't betting my life and/or the lives of my family on it. YMMV.
     
  4. TRYNEIN

    TRYNEIN Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    If you are a US debt slave, you can be sued by another debt slave.

    Are you the master or the servant??


    The federal government is not the sovereign for ones who are not United States citizens. The government is the sovereign to corporations or persons it creates. One who is in a position of being the servant cannot question the demands of the master. The government possesses what is called "sovereign immunity" in relation to those it creates.
    Clearfield Trust Co. v. United States, 318 U.S. 363, 371 (1943)




    "A Sovereign is exempt from suit, not because of any formal conception or obsolete theory, but on the logical and practical ground that there can be no legal Right as against the authority that makes the law on which the Right depends."
    Kawananakoa v. Polyblank, 205 U. S. 349, 353, 27 S. Ct. 526, 527, 51 L. Ed. 834 (1907).
     
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  5. GOLDBRIX

    GOLDBRIX In God I Trust and most in GIM Gold Chaser

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    You home-owners be careful of your Home-Owners Insurance Policy. While firearms may be covered for being stolen or lost in a fire. There are Insurance companies that require the policy holder to keep firearms unloaded on the insured premises.
    I found my current insurer is one of them and I am searching to replace them and pulling all my insurances from them.
     
  6. Ahillock

    Ahillock A nobody Mother Lode

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    This is not the case for every state.

    Good thing Michigan has the Michigan's Self Defense Act Legislation PA 314 which states that a person who defends himself (or in defense of another individual) with deadly force or less than deadly force anywhere he has a right to be is immune from civil liability for damages. It sounds like more states need to follow Michigan's lead on this.


    "Sec. 2922b. An individual who uses deadly force or force other than deadly force in self-defense or in defense of another individual in compliance with section 2 of the self-defense act is immune from civil liability for damages caused to either of the following by the use of that deadly force or force other than deadly force:

    (a) The individual against whom the use of deadly force or force other than deadly force is authorized.

    (b) Any individual claiming damages arising out of injury to or the death of the individual described in subdivision (a), based upon his or her relationship to that individual."


    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2005-2006/publicact/htm/2006-PA-0314.htm
     
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  7. Ahillock

    Ahillock A nobody Mother Lode

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    In my CCW/CPL class (taught by a current LEO) he ingrained it in our heads as our teacher that if you are ever involved in a situation where you had to shoot someone and the police talk to you all you should say is "I was in fear of my life, I would like to call my attorney." That is it. He said just keep repeating that over and over again until you have your attorney present. Don't give any other information out except, "I was in fear of my life, I would like to call my attorney."
     
  8. Ahillock

    Ahillock A nobody Mother Lode

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    Just an FYI:

     
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  9. Ebie

    Ebie Midas Member Midas Member

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    Also, they make up the law as they go along. If the local newspapers are supportive of the citizen--or vice versa--is important.
    Interestingly, in the George Zimmerman case, due to his full cooperation and statements, he was not arrested or charged--at least initially. After he was charged, the defense used his statements to defend him in the trial. He did not have to testify-since they already had his full statements on record.
     
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  10. GOLDBRIX

    GOLDBRIX In God I Trust and most in GIM Gold Chaser

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    Zimmerman still gave the LameStreamMedia and the State's Prosecution too much "testimony" to throw at him.
    Let the evidence and YOUR attorney speak in your defense.
    A defendant should only testify when his case looks hopelessly AGAINST him, and after consultation with his attorney.
    REMEMBER: Even your attorney is an Officer of the Court, so is the Judge, So are LEOs, and so are the Prosecutors.

    Here is a Law Professor and a Cop becoming an Attorney telling you "Do Not Talk to Police" ;



    Another Cop in Another City and another situation "Policemen say NEVER Talk to the Police":

     
  11. TRYNEIN

    TRYNEIN Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    The only words that would come from my mouth would be:

    I was threatened by --- and I feared for my life.

    Then I would say:

    As one of the people standing on this land, I reserve all unalienable rights.

    That is what I would say and then I would shut my mouth.

    By declaring to be one of the people, I remove their ability to use any statutory laws against me
     
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  12. Ebie

    Ebie Midas Member Midas Member

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    They make up the rules, as per the situation. Remember the unarmed escaped felon who was shot in the back in NY by an officer. Praise, not, criticism, for his actions appeared in the press. I wonder what would have happened if a civilian had shot him in the back, or, if he had been black, shot in the back by white civilian.
     
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  13. mtnman

    mtnman Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    As Goldbrix posted. The only thing you say to the Cops is "I want an attorney" THEN KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT!
     
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  14. oldgaranddad

    oldgaranddad Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    Just for clarity sake and Lord forbid you ever wind up in such a situation, you are required to provide your name, some form of ID and in some states your pistol license/permit. Then you state that you are in no capacity to make any statement about the situation and that you need to confer with your attorney to preserve your rights. Also state that any further questions without an attorney present will be viewed as an attempt by the authorities to abrogate your rights. Always remain calm, polite and firm. Do not be surprised if you are handcuffed at the scene or taken to the precinct. The authorities can and most likely will keep asking questions but you do not need to open your mouth and answer them. The rub in the whole situation is with all the adrenaline flowing and situational stress is keeping calm and clear headed. Even if the authorities are sympathetic to your situation: remain silent. Courts have ruled that it is OK for police to lie to you in the course of an investigation (http://www.brooklyneagle.com/articl...ects-during-interrogations-says-court-appeals). This is true virtually every jurisdiction. Do not talk to spouses or relatives about the situation either because they will most likely repeat what you say without thinking of the outcome to the police and that second hand testimony can be used against you. Your only friend is your attorney and you are paying good money for that only friend.

    I have heard attorneys tell clients that the aftermath is sometimes worse than the self-defense act itself. More times than not it is true.
     
  15. Mujahideen

    Mujahideen Black Member Midas Member

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    ^^^

    As soon as a situation happens, you need to put yourself into that mind state.

    No one is your friend, the police get paid to lock you up.

    THEY GET PAID TO LOCK YOU UP. They will not lose any sleep if you go to prison.
     
  16. oldgaranddad

    oldgaranddad Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    Well said. I need to incorporate that into my next lecture on the subject.
     
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  17. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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    :beer:
     
  18. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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    :beer:
     
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  19. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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    :beer:
     
  20. GOLDBRIX

    GOLDBRIX In God I Trust and most in GIM Gold Chaser

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    OGD, Check your state laws. Most only require you provide your state issued ID and maybe your CCW Permit with verbal communication being optional, and DANGEROUS.
    I do like those options a couple of posters (mtnman, Ahillock, and trynien) have offered which may relieve a LEO's immediate concerns of who he is dealing with.
    You do not have to come off as a prick just stick to your guns and request an attorney.
     
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  21. southfork

    southfork Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    Still better to have a gun and not need it, than to need one and not have it, better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
     
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  22. Krag

    Krag Planet earth Gold Chaser

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    Open carry is legal even in CT; but it would be risky. I was talking to an NRA card carrying librarian last week and he rightly indicated too much risk doing it. Cops can claim "a disturbance" or "disorderly conduct" charge in many cases, a ruse to charge or seize.... I hear you don't want to get caught in MA with a gun in your car.
     
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  23. GOLDBRIX

    GOLDBRIX In God I Trust and most in GIM Gold Chaser

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    Your have the RIGHT to Remain Silent, Do you have the ability ?

    As my late Ol' golf buddy and attorney use to tell me " Golfers and Clients are just alike. They always attempt to improve their lie". JGT - RIP
     
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  24. oldgaranddad

    oldgaranddad Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    Agreed. Again it is all dependent upon your jurisdiction. You need to know the law and regulations of where your firearm license/permit was issued (if they issue any) and where the "use of force situation" occurred.

    Here in NY you MUST provide your pistol license. No "if" "and" or "but". Carrying without the physical license is grounds for revocation by the rules set down by the issuing agent not to mention the confiscation of your property and a prolonged legal process to get said firearms back. (see: Panzella vs Nassau, http://www.llalawfirm.com/images/lla/pdf/SJD.pdf this case centers around the fact that the police had no protocol to return firearms so they decided they were not going to. Yes! You can't make this stuff up!)

    In NY there are 59 different issuing agents (62 counties, NYC comprises 5 counties with one agent and Suffolk county is bi-administered with two agents -- nothing like having a standard, eh?). All issuing agents have their own set of rules, restrictions and regulations that CCL carriers must comply with. Hence, you can see where lots of problems for the CCL holder comes into. Some counties are very gun friendly and others are downright draconian (NYC is one example). Not to mention NYS CCLs are not valid in NYC (unless you have a NYC endorsement) yet if you have to traverse that jurisdiction that is a whole new set of problems fraught with constitutional danger but I digress. One issuing agent actually had in their rules that you had to answer all law enforcement questions immediately (meaning without an attorney). Thankfully that rule got pulled but the fact remains that issuing agents can amend rules with little legislative oversight. Also, almost all issuing agents suspend/revoke your license automatically if you do have a deadly force encounter even when it was obviously justified. You then have to apply to get it reinstated. Which takes time and money not to mention leaving you defenseless if the person you killed had cohorts and other nefarious associates (Think gang bangers looking to avenge their fallen comrade.)

    Using deadly force in your own county in NY is tough enough but using deadly force in another jurisdiction in NY can be even more problematic legally (not to mention how they view your legal rights and standing). Unfortunately NY is not alone in this purpose built Byzantine legal quagmire designed to make law abiding citizens into criminals. You'd be surprised how many "gun friendly" states have hidden "gotchas" in their legal codes when it comes to firearm self defense.
     
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  25. Ahillock

    Ahillock A nobody Mother Lode

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    Very wise words. I have no problem with handing over my ID/CPL license and obviously surrendering my firearm. But any questions about what took place and what lead to the events needs to be heard by your lawyer first. You don't tell the police first, you tell your best friend (lawyer) what happened first. That way they can filter out what took place and allow you the chance to put the story straight without the police and DA twisting your words around and making it sound like something took place that didn't.

    The thing about stating, "I was in fear of my life" and repeating that is the officer will have that in their report that you stated you were in fear of your life when they questioned you, seemed shook up and requested legal counsel.

    I'd rather state, "I was in fear of my life" and then follow up with "I'd like to speak with my attorney" rather than just blurt out "I want to talk to my attorney" right away. There is nothing wrong with jumping straight to "I want to talk to my attorney" right away, but just remember that if it does go to trial, I'd rather have the jury hear from the police report that my first words were "I was in fear of my life.....I want to speak with my attorney" than for the jury to first year "I want my attorney."

    Just my $0.02 to further expound on the subject.
     
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  26. mtnman

    mtnman Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    Anywhere you are, if you have to use your weapon, when the cops get there you WILL be in cuffs and they will have already gotten your ID from your person. Keep that mouth shut at the scene, say absolutely NOTHING. Once you're at the station your only reply is "I need an attorney". BTDT got the Tshirt.
     
  27. GOLDBRIX

    GOLDBRIX In God I Trust and most in GIM Gold Chaser

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    FYI - In MOST states Correctional Officers ( and any LEOs Tasked to the recovery of the escaped felon) are authorized to shoot Fleeing Felons.
    Think about the two killers that escaped with the help of a infatuated and desperate female Correctional Officer. The dead one was fleeing. A day or two later the other gave himself up. I call it an Occupational / Job Hazard.
     
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  28. Ahillock

    Ahillock A nobody Mother Lode

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    Not necessarily true. If it takes place in your own home, you called 911 during the home invasion/incident, spoke to 911 dispatch, described the situation of person(s) attempting to break in and you are fearful, plus describe yourself as male, in your 50s wearing your PJs, keep the dispatcher on the phone and throughout until the officers show up...etc. I'm not sure that you will necessarily end up in handcuffs and taken to the station.

    Remember each case is different. If you don't have time to call 911 until after the shooting has taken place, then sure, maybe the officers have no idea what they are driving up to vs. the other scenario where the dispatcher is able to update them with what is going on and who is at the premise and what to expect. Also will very based on state. I think the cops response will be very different showing up to a home in Texas vs. a home in NYC.

    Yes the cops might handcuff you as they secure the area to make sure everything is secure before they take the cuffs off you. But if it is a rural town where the sheriff knows everyone and they had the 911 dispatcher updating them as the events took place, they might have no need to cuff you. Same thing with being taken to the station. If the officers + crime scene detectives see the shoot as a good legal shoot based off the crime scene evidence + 911 dispatcher info, they might realize it is a clean shoot and have no need to take you down to the station in cuffs.

    Maybe a different scenario you shoot someone that breaks in and can't call until everything is over + you state you won't say anything until after you speak to you attorney, so they are forced to bring you down to the station.

    Lots of scenarios, but I wouldn't necessarily state you are going to be in cuffs and spending the night in jail no matter what. Yes you can, but also scenarios where you wouldn't.

    Also a big difference if something happened in your home vs. in the alley of town.
     
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  29. Chester-Copperpot

    Chester-Copperpot Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    Same as other, I was instructed during my CPL to say nothing until an attorney is present. Retired detective gave that part of the class and said police officers are told the same thing. After a shooting most people are in shock and details are very sketchy. Also said to tell the same things to your loved ones. If any doubt arises they will split you and whoever was with you during the shooting and question you both separately. Again, say nothing until legal help arrives.
     
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  30. Mujahideen

    Mujahideen Black Member Midas Member

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    I agree with mtnman, Your words will be used against you.

    I would state absolutely nothing at all other than that "I wish to see my lawyer".

    You never know, a cop could have a false memory or completely lie about you talking and state that you said other things. If you are absolutely silent other than stating that you want your attorney, you limit that. Take no chances with your freedom.

    Stating that you were in fear of your life does not help you anyway. It's just words, but it puts you in a box.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2016
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  31. Ahillock

    Ahillock A nobody Mother Lode

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    I'd disagree. If I am ever in a justified self defense shooting, I will definitely state I was in fear of my life and state I want an attorney. It definitely helps set the stage for what you were feeling and the jury will hear those words read back to them from the police report. Even better if it is stated on the 911 tapes as those will be played in the court room.

    Stating you were in fear of your life does not hurt you at all as most states requires that you "honestly and reasonably believe that the use of deadly force was necessary to prevent the imminent death of or imminent great bodily harm to himself or herself or to another individual." The exact wording will depend on your state, but most states have a statute stating something along those lines.

    The fact that the first words out of my mouth are, "I was in fear of my life" matches up perfectly with the state law stating I had to believe that deadly force was needed and that I thought great danger to myself or loved ones was imminent. "I was in fear of my life" might be the 7 words that save your ass from going to court and/or save your ass from being convicted by a jury (depending on your state and what kind of people are on your jury).

    I will definitely be using that statement if I ever have to go through this and have instructed my wife to state the same if she is ever involved in something similar; either as the shooter or as a witness to an event.

    Mujahideen, if you are worried about the cops making up stuff about what you said just because you said "I was in fear of my life" what will stop that same cop from making up stuff if you said nothing? It won't.
     
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  32. mtnman

    mtnman Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    You're free to do what you want but... Go back and watch the videos Glodbrix posted. NOTHING you say will help you. ANYTHING you say will be used against you. It's what Cops are paid to do. I was charged with 2nd degree murder. If I had said ANYTHING except "I need an attorney" I most likely would not be sitting at home on my computer right now. Don't think for one moment that you'll be going home that evening if you have to kill someone, you won't, doesn't matter what you say. Bail won't be set until you see a judge in the morning. Maybe the actual law says you can but the DA will tell you that's why we have court, to determine if you were in the right. I was in the right under the laws of Tennessee yet it still cost me $50,000 to prove that. My attorney (the best criminal defense attorney in Tennessee) only took my case because I said nothing to the Cops. He told me that before he took my case. During the entire process the only time I spoke was on the stand in court (even on the stand you don't have to speak), even then my attorney was hesitant and we rehearsed several times what I would say. When I tell you to KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT, I'm not just spewing out advice from my ass.
     
  33. Ebie

    Ebie Midas Member Midas Member

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    Mntman,
    Please tell us more about your experience--if you can.
    Real experience is the best post ever--but I am sorry that you went through it.

     
  34. Mujahideen

    Mujahideen Black Member Midas Member

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    Ahillock, if you remain silent after killing someone who was armed, and attacked you, your wife and child inside of your property in self defense during a home invasion, do you think the DA will say "If only Ahillock would have told us what he was thinking... If he would have told us why he killed the man, we would have dropped the charges." ?
     
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  35. Ahillock

    Ahillock A nobody Mother Lode

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    When they say "don't talk to the police" that doesn't mean you can't state something for the police to put into their report. It means don't have a discussion with the police as you aren't going to outsmart them. It also means don't answer the questions the police might direct at you. It also means don't discuss the events that just transpired. Don't give them a timeline of what happened or why you did what you did. But the fact that you would say "I need an attorney" means you just spoke to the police. So it is more than just don't 'speak' to the police.

    I have the phone number of a local attorney that specializes in self defense legal cases in my cell phone in case I ever need his services. He has directed me to do the exact thing my CCW/CPL instructor said, when the police arrive say "I was in fear of my life, I wan't to speak with my attorney." There is a reason why officers involved in a police involved shooting state they were "in fear of" their lives. Because most states require the fear of bodily harm or severe injury for use of deadly force, either of the officer or of another party. That is why you make that statement, because most state laws require that for a legal shoot.

    As I noted above, here in Michigan under the Michigan Self Defense Act Legislation of 2006, states that in order to use deadly force you must "honestly and reasonably believe that the use of deadly force was necessary to prevent the imminent death of or imminent great bodily harm to himself or herself or to another individual." That is what my state law says. That is why I have been advised by my attorney (if I ever need him) plus by my CCW/CPL instructor to state that "I was in fear of my life.....I want to speak to my attorney."

    This isn't about saying anything special in expectation that the cops will just turn around and not investigate. The purpose of stating that statement is that it then becomes official record and if the case goes to trial, the jury will hear that. If I went to case, I would want the jury in my case to hear me state right after the incident that I was in fear of my life. This is not spewing out advice from my ass, but based on what legal counsel has stated to me but also what my CCW/CPL instructor has stated from his time in court cases as a police officer + as a CCW/CPL instructor who has had to testify in court cases. This is not just some BS that I made up.

    Again, this is based off of where I live (MI) and what legal counsel and my CCW/CPL instructor have recommended and advised to say.
     
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  36. Ahillock

    Ahillock A nobody Mother Lode

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    Here is what Tennessee law states:

    2010 Tennessee Code
    Title 39 - Criminal Offenses
    Chapter 11 - General Provisions
    Part 6 - Justification Excluding Criminal Responsibility
    39-11-611 - Self-defense.

    (2) Notwithstanding § 39-17-1322, a person who is not engaged in unlawful activity and is in a place where the person has a right to be has no duty to retreat before threatening or using force intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury, if:

    (A) The person has a reasonable belief that there is an imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury;

    (B) The danger creating the belief of imminent death or serious bodily injury is real, or honestly believed to be real at the time; and

    (C) The belief of danger is founded upon reasonable grounds.

    http://law.justia.com/codes/tennessee/2010/title-39/chapter-11/part-6/39-11-611
     
  37. Ahillock

    Ahillock A nobody Mother Lode

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    In all due respect, it isn't the DA that matters the most as DA's are stupid and have agendas and will stay take lawful kill cases to court because they hate guns, gun owners and want to make some point because they are a liberal democrat.

    Who I would personally care about is the jury and what they heard took place directly after the police showed up; what I stated. There is a big difference in what you state 3-5 minutes after the shoot (however long it takes law enforcement to show up after the event) versus what you state to the investigators 48 hours after the event. I would much rather have the police report (which becomes part of the evidence at trial) show clearly how my first comments were that "I was in fear of my life" and then have my lawyer show the wording of the state's Self Defense Act Legislation of 2006 and show how my belief/feelings/statement directly co-inline with what the state law states is a legal use of force.

    There is a reason that police are trained to state "I was in fear of my life" when they are involved in a police involved shooting. There is a legal reason behind it. ;)
     
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  38. TRYNEIN

    TRYNEIN Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Statutory laws rule PERSONS
     
  39. Ahillock

    Ahillock A nobody Mother Lode

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    Unfortunately, if you reside in the USA and are a resident of a State, you are considered a PERSONS. If you pay state and federal income taxes, you are considered a PERSONS. If you pay FICA you are considered a PERSONS. If you pay property tax to your county you are considered a PERSONS.

    Try shooting someone and claim that you aren't a PERSONS in their system.
     
  40. TRYNEIN

    TRYNEIN Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Forcing them to prove they have jurisdiction over you on the record is a whole lot more effective, but first you have to be a People
     
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