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Billy Graham turning 100.

Discussion in 'Coffee Shack (Daily News/Economy)' started by 917601, Jul 12, 2017.



  1. Son of Gloin

    Son of Gloin Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter ++

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    You're getting respect and not giving any in return. Done..."Bud."
     
  2. michael59

    michael59 heads up-butts down Platinum Bling

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    Look bud...I made my point which was from another. Now I have offered you the opportunity to communicate with that man. I do not see the problem at all. If I was offer a chance to discern something I had a question about then I am all ahead on it. I am not diss'ing you at all.

    Step out of your box and talk to another who knows about this. Look, I do not follow the jim jones of the world. I do not rub rabbits feet and I dam sure do not go see a charlatan though I did go see the Richard Nixon tour when he was running, yeah he was not a crook either.

    Look bud it is there for you to investigate, step out side and visit some one in real life who has an opposing observation.
     
  3. Krag

    Krag Planet earth Platinum Bling

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    As a Christian myself, I am somewhat skeptical of where Graham was really coming from. I'm sure he made a lot of people feel better. However in his come to Jesus sales pitch he should have offered some truth in advertising, if you want to be a real Christian and stay one you will suffer for the faith.
     
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  4. Son of Gloin

    Son of Gloin Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter ++

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    We have an enemy who will do all he can to make that so. God has blessed me, though and takes good care of me.
     
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  5. jiikoo

    jiikoo Seeker Seeker

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    He used Gods name and Jesus name to make money. To himself.
     
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  6. Bushpilot

    Bushpilot Silver Member Silver Miner

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    Son of Gloin,
    I do not hold myself to be a man of the cloth.... far from it...thus I have no need or requirement to live as a pauper nor do I solicit donations of money in the name of Jesus and doing Gods work. BG however holds himself out there as a preacher..minister..revivalist... or whatever, and has a net worth of $25 million if the figure is accurate. Other than basic living expenses what would he need $25 million for (even if its real estate or other assets)? Does it reference in the bible or any other holy book from any religion that it is right or just to solicit money for the purposes expressed by all the ministries (think Orenstein, Hinn, Baker, Farwell..etch )not just those of BG?
     
  7. Son of Gloin

    Son of Gloin Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter ++

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    Just a few questions Bushpilot. First, where does the idea come from that a guy like Billy Graham should live as a pauper? How is it that you excuse yourself from this requirement? What is your definition of basic living expenses?

    It always seemed to me odd that other people would put limits on another person's financial means. I worked my butt off for many years of my life and earned a decent living. Up at 1:00am to get ready for work, working more days than not, till late in the afternoon, just because I cared about the service I was providing to my employer and our customers. So many days in sub-zero weather with blowing winds, freezing my extremities. Also, many days out in 90+degree farenheit temperatures with matching humidity, out in the driving rain in 30's temperatures. There's more, but you get the picture. Still, on occassion, someone would get wind of the kind of pay and benefits I was earning and express offense that I had so much. And believe me when I say, it wasn't an extraordinary amount of money and benefits for what I was providing. I earned every single penny. Also, I retired a couple months ago. Most people expressed appreciation for all my work and service, but there were people jealous that I was able to have a retirement. Really!? I've been working since I was 11 years old, with no breaks, except vacation weeks. Again, really!?

    How much is Billy Graham allowed to have? What do you, Bushpilot, allow Billy Graham to have? What do you allow me to have? Or anybody else, for that matter? I said in a previous post that over the course of a multiple decade career The Billy Graham Crusade probably took in billions of dollars, the vast majority of which went to charity, helping people all over the world. Really, millions of people, all over the world. Yet, you begrudge the man a tiny percentage of those donations. I don't get it.

    I'll be honest with you all. I still believe Billy Graham is a good man, who did God's work here on Earth, for most of his life. I'm going to let my words stand. I believe God is pleased with Billy Graham. My opinion, but I'm pretty sure of it. Trust Jesus Christ. Not rumour, or unfounded allegation. Not the Democrats or the Republicans. Certainly not Karl Marx, who would probably also say I got paid too much and Billy Graham got paid too much.
    Much respect to all of you. My apologies if I got annoyed occaisionaly and I'm sure I did.
     
  8. michael59

    michael59 heads up-butts down Platinum Bling

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    Billy Graham is equivalent to the reverend Dollar. There is no difference other than style and skin color. Now if the good reverend Dollar had a plane but needed a better one why he asks and did receive....so for reverend dollar his god did giveth to him and his god is his congregation that gaveth. Now this reverend Billy Graham doth ask'ith and his god does give'ith also But the good Reverend the Billy Graham asketh the board members of his ministries for his pay for fleecing the flock.

    Kind of puts a twist on the words "The lamb That Was Slain" do it not.
     
  9. tom baxter

    tom baxter back from 2004

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    A spirit filled legend? I don't think so. Sure he was a great preacher but he was no early church disciple. I under stand why his politics appeals to most here though, after all he is a Republican.

    A secret thirteen-page letter written on April 15, 1969 by White House Chaplain Billy Graham to U.S. President Richard Nixon was released to the public by National Archives and Records Administration in April 1989 in which Graham had encouraged Nixon to utilize a military campaign to bomb dikes across North Vietnam should the Paris Peace Talks fail to reach a negotiated settlement of the U.S. war in Southeast Asia.

    Graham developed his dike bombing strategy during an earlier business meeting in Bangkok with his evangelists assigned to Southern Vietnam.[94] Graham would later advocate to Nixon that this proposed escalation of the war in Southeast Asia was a plan that "could overnight destroy the economy of North Vietnam" by employing "tens of thousands of North Vietnamese defectors to bomb and invade the North."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Graham#Vietnam_War
     
  10. Son of Gloin

    Son of Gloin Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter ++

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    I'm no military strategist. I've never been in the military, but it looks like he was advocating destroying infrastructure, not people, to try to put an end to the war.
     
  11. tom baxter

    tom baxter back from 2004

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    Possibly so. But what business is it of preachers to get involved in military war strategy? Oh I'm not saying he was evil, not at all, but he certainly wasn't one to turn the other cheek. So to speak.
     
  12. Son of Gloin

    Son of Gloin Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter ++

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    Good question, TomBaxter. I don't know, honestly. Speculating, he and his people were working in ministry to the people of South Vietnam. Perhaps he had grown to really care for those people and was afraid for them. In any case, the dike-bombing strategy seems to have been a bad idea. The Nixon administration is said to have determined that it would produce enormous casualties in N Vietnam, perhaps an outcome BG had not anticipated.

    I continue to defend Reverend Graham, here because I'm convinced he's worthy of defense, not because he is perfect. You are right that BG is not evil and he also is no angel. He is human and subject to error, like us all. People bring up lone, second hand stories about his people absconding with funds from a tent revival. I've never heard anything like that before. Others are convinced he has too much money for a preacher, which is just a tiny fraction of the money his ministry took in over six or seven decades. He was close to several presidential administrations. Maybe he thought his opinion might help at times. Even erroniously.

    It's reported that he despises communism. I'm right there with him on that. I think communism, along with mohammedanism is one of the two most destructive systems of ideology ever devised. Both have produced more pain, misery, destruction and death, I think, than all the other systems ever devised by human beings. Maybe BG thought by destroying N Vietnam's economy, he could also destroy communism there. At too much of a cost, in my opinion. But, it didn't happen.
     
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  13. Son of Gloin

    Son of Gloin Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter ++

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    Man oh man, 917601! Wish a nice old guy a happy 99th birthday and look at what happens. All hell breaks loose. (toungue in cheek) Please hold off on that Adolph Hitler appreciation thread you were thinking about. It isn't going to go well.

    No offense here to anybody. Good debate about Reverend Graham. I'm sure he forgives you.
     
  14. 917601

    917601 Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    What I am going to say will offend a few. Biblical fact states when war must be waged, it must be decided upon with many advisors, be performed quickly, decisively, and overwhelmingly to spare suffering. As my father who served in Patton's army has said time and time again, their instructions were to "kill, capture, and destroy " as quickly as humanly possible to alleviate suffering. We defeated Hitler and saved the world as we knew it following those guidelines. I am relieved to know that Mr Graham was one of the many advisors advising Nixon in those turbulent times ( many advisors). History now shows President Nixon did not follow Graham's advice, if he had followed Biblical " war" guidelines, we would have won Vietnam as decisively as we did in WW2 and spared the twenty years plus of suffering for those under the Communist rule- initial murder in the streets, reeducation camps, starvation,....., My neighbor's are from the Vietnam boat refugee crisis and we have discussed the " war" more than once- her father was a South Vietnamese General, and those " left behind" are still suffering today.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2017
  15. tom baxter

    tom baxter back from 2004

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    Well we're all educated people here, so why don't you quote the verses out of the new testament that this is based on and we can make our own minds up. I know in the old testament a lot of killing and war went on under the sanction of God, but I don't recall any under the new covenant that today's christian leaders preach.

    "The first amendment to the US Constitution states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
    The Supreme Court first employed the term “separation of church and state” in 1879 as shorthand for the meaning of the First Amendment’s religion clauses
    http://americanhistory.oxfordre.com...99329175.001.0001/acrefore-9780199329175-e-29
     
  16. tom baxter

    tom baxter back from 2004

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    Yes I agree with you. He is/was also anti Israel too, or more specifically, anti-jewish, and was very outspoken on that. I would not hesitate to listen to the man's preaching, he's a good preacher, a good man at heart, and a much much more righteous man than I am. But no saint, as you say. I think it's inevitable that we look up to and admire these church leaders but I try to temper that with what I have read in the bible.

    My mother was a big follower and financial supporter of kenneth copland, believing he was using her donations for the Lord's work. How that incorporates a $20 Million dollar private jet and a residence the size of Hotel I cannot say, but I certainly don't account him a saint either. They are all just men, some more spiritual than others.

    PS, I don't begrudge copeland for wanting that jet. I'd love one too. I'm just not happy with him using church funds for it.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  17. Son of Gloin

    Son of Gloin Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter ++

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    Never liked that guy, Copeland. Of course, I don't like 98% of those types on tv.

    Also, the only thing I've ever heard that BG said about Jews was that they had (and I'm paraphrasing here) a stranglehold on the media. That is just a plain old fact. Are there other things he's said?
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2017
  18. tom baxter

    tom baxter back from 2004

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    He was very derogatory about them, but I don't hold that against him, I don't hold them in high esteem either. He had plenty of opportunities to call them out though but it seems he chose to pretend to be allied with them instead. He was a very political preacher, most are.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/17/u...ingering-anger-over-1972-remarks-on-jews.html
     
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  19. tom baxter

    tom baxter back from 2004

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    I think this comment from the article is particularly accurate.
    I would say that is how I feel personally, and that will do me on this thread.
     
  20. Son of Gloin

    Son of Gloin Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter ++

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    I don't necessarily expect a reply from you on this note. As far as the Jews are concerned in America, they are a destructive force insofar as their obvious stranglehold on all facets of the media are concerned. They hold an iron-clad glove of force over the ideological/philosophical content of all media, news and entertainment and allow absolutely no dissent or contrary opinion. This is certainly destructive of liberty, especially considering their monolithic leftist viewpoint.

    As for banking, I don't think any comment is really necessary, except to say the words Federal Reserve. But, Graham's viewpoints on the Jewish American community might very well have been like mine. Dualistic and contradictory in nature. I respect them for all the positive contributions they have made to America, which are considerable, but the media and banking influences are intolerable.
     

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