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Bitcoin Chart Fractal. $5000?

Discussion in 'Digital Currencies' started by Nomis Elpmis, Feb 24, 2016.



  1. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    That's the way everything works. If there's enough "chairs" for everyone who wants one, where's the value in holding a "chair"?
    If more Au than anyone could ever want is readily available in newly mined supplies, what would that mean for the value of your Au holdings? The only reason a scrap/refining market exists is because we can't get enough of the new stuff.
    ...and even in bitcoins case there is in fact something in the bag. BTC is comprised of code and even just code is something.

    All I'm sayin' is if you ever want to make money on anything, you better hope there's not enough "chairs" when you need to sell yours.
    ...be it Au, Ag, a house a car or a bitcoin or even your own labor. Scarcity is what drives the value of something. Lack of scarcity kills that value. BTC is designed with scarcity at its root.

    Remember, everything has a value based upon supply and demand. Even dirt's cheap or even free....until you need a truck to deliver it.
    ...and the only things that have true intrinsic value are things you can eat, live in, or otherwise directly use and/or consume. After that comes things that can be used to get those things. Like money, Au/Ag or even bitcoin.

    The fact others also place value in something does not mean that value is intrinsic. Only that a sufficient quantity of people agree it has value to them.
    BTW, I'm looking at Au here. Beyond its direct industrial uses, it only holds value as money because people generally agree that it does.
    If, for example, a method is ever devised to fabricate Au in large quantity, do you really think its history of being used as money will preserve its so-called "intrinsic" value?

    Also, why do think there is a paper Au market? There can never be a paper BTC market. If one wants it, one must actually acquire it. A paper Au/Ag market allows more to be bought/sold than exists and is what many here greatly complain about. BTC, while not perfect, is the Peoples answer to the rigged system.
    The People tried making Au/Ag coins to be used as honest money but were shut down, prosecuted and vilified. Unfortunately the only option is create something digital instead that does not have a central control that can be targeted for attack by the PTB.
     
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  2. goldielox1

    goldielox1 Silver Miner Seeker

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    I know, in a million years we'll be able to send a ship to outer space, fly to a huge asteroid, stop the asteroid while we mine it so it doesn't get too far away (or mine it instantly), gather the gold, then fly the ship back, melt and refine it for $.01 in 2016 USD. That my friend is called science fiction.

    Uh, no there's nothing in it. You can argue the technology is useful (cheap electronic transfers), but the bitcoin itself is an empty paper bag.



    Wrong, I only produce one turd a day (very scarce), but it's worth absolutely nothing. Or would you like to buy one of my scarce turds?

    Wrong again. The dirt is still cheap. I'm paying for labor and transportation costs. You talk as if you know something about economic theory but every time you open your mouth you say something wrong.

    Wrong. Au/Ag are not just shiny paper weights. They're of great value in industry, in fact the computer that tracks your paper bag bitcoins requires Au/Ag. They are also of value for their use as decoration or jewelry.

    Bitcoin has no value whatsoever except for the perception that another person will take them as money in the future. You can't build something with a bitcoin or look at a bitcoin. It is not a commodity like Ag/Au.

    It's universal and has been throughout history. It's ingrained in our DNA somehow. I could go to a tribe in a rain forest somewhere that has never been exposed to modern society or seen Au and I'll bet I could trade a gold coin for something such as a hut or food. It's in our DNA. Created to be money and valuable. It will always be money.

    People have tried that for thousands of years. It's called alchemy. It ain't ever gonna be cheaper to make it in a lab than it is to mine it.

    What are you talking about? It is already possible to short sell bitcoins. That's the very definition of a paper market. You're selling something you don't own. You don't know much about the very topic you're purporting to be an expert on.

    Let me tell you a secret, the reason there have been attempts to confiscate it, is because it's real money. It's readily available and legal to own in the US now, so that excuse is not applicable.

    LOL that's "our only option" to create a empty digital paper bag and put our trust in it? I'd feel safer owning cans of food or ammo. No central control? Earlier in this thread there was evidence of big bank bitcoin manipulation exposed.
     
  3. smilershouse

    smilershouse Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    This is what I have been thinking. PM markets were replaced with a paper iou to save countries having to ship tons of bullion between debtor and lender. The SLV and GLD was born and this led to the high frequency trading derivative markets that we see today. These trades now dictate the price of actual bullion. As we have seen, a big trader can buy big on Monday, pump the stock and dump on Friday making a 5-10% profit. A govt can leak a rumor to drive up or drive down the price of gold, and then announce a contrary policy later that will affect its paper price. With BTC these swings are becoming massive and I predict, will become even more erratic. We still dont know for sure who started BTC in 2009 when each BTC was basically free?. . Let us assume it was started by a very influential global banking dynasty with 500 trillion net worth working its business out of China. Perhaps it was started as a joke? Or with an outlook for maybe $1-$10 tops. As we are seeing, a frenzy is developing just like the Tulip bubble. The question still remains, what is a BTC really worth? I surmise that just like all HFTS it is extremely vulnerable and is easily tampered with by High frequency trades of buy and sell. Supposing that affluent banking dynasty chose to buy $10 trillion worth of BTC, wait until everyone has invested their faith and hard earned money into its rising price, and then poof, $10trillion +profits is dumped at a click of a mouse, and 90% also choose to also sell in the frenzy? Although the BTC would still be there, the notional value has been very hard hit, and although some people have bought and held BTC, I would haphazard a guess that like all other 'software assets' the urge for the big players to start the process again would be irresistible. But again, if people lose faith in BTC, then no buying at the bottom from the big players will make the slightest piece of difference if everyone else has lost faith in it. The worlds economies are so heavily influenced by computer trading, that the entire financial system smacks of an online casino. Bottom line, is that BTC is of a notional value. It is not a tangible asset. It has no intrinsic value whatsover.

    Sh
     
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  4. Gun Ban Extremist

    Gun Ban Extremist Seeker Seeker

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    Certainly a different "color" today...

    20170105_CMC_01.PNG
     
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  5. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Then by all means go buy some.

    I was talking about Liberty Dollars and how people tried creating an honest money system, but were shutdown prosecuted and vilified.


    I get it. You don't like BTC and that's your Right. I just don't understand why you rail against it so. It seems you are bothered by the fact others do like it and use it or have made substantial gains in holding it. Either that or it's because you got left at the station as the train pulled away from the platform? A $100 bet on BTC in 2010 or even 2011 would be paying off nicely right about now.
    ...and hardly anyone would miss a mere $100 they spent 6 years ago.

    If only the day comes that Au/Ag should perform as well. lol
     
  6. platinumdude

    platinumdude Gold Chaser Platinum Bling

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    Bitcoin is back down to 885.19. Dang is that sucker volatile.
     
  7. Flight2gold

    Flight2gold Silver Member Silver Miner Site Supporter ++

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    It seems the psychological barrier of the high price produced a nice sell off.
    I don't believe that people looking for a temporary place to move their wealth have changed.
    The gold and silver buying lines in China are around the block.
    All these digital currency's will probably just keep going up for a while, unless of course, China completely changes their capital controls.
     
  8. goldielox1

    goldielox1 Silver Miner Seeker

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    Yes and that falls under the reason governments confiscate real money (Ag/Au)....because they are afraid of it. They can't control it. They can't print it out of thin air to fund pet projects and make the sheeple think they are creating prosperity for them.

    Again. I could care less if you or someone else made a million $ on gambling on bitcoin or litecoin or any other coin. If we were friends I'd pat you on the back, congratulate you on your luck, and tell you to cash out. Just like if we were in a casino and you made $1 million playing blackjack or bought a Countrywide put option in 2007.

    If I wanted to make a high risk bet there's other ways i would do it than something that's worth nothing. At least one can argue a penny stock has a potential for some real value if a company in bankruptcy can somehow right its ship. A bitcoin has absolutely no real value and never will. Just one sucker looking for a bigger sucker.
     
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  9. goldielox1

    goldielox1 Silver Miner Seeker

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    I believe Dogcoin had a negative earnings report. :dduck:
     
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  10. goldielox1

    goldielox1 Silver Miner Seeker

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    I don't understand why these coinbugs don't get this. I'd have a lot more respect for them if they would just say "I know a bitcoin is an empty paper bag, but I'm confident I can find a sucker to pay more than I did in the future." When they argue on and on about how a bit coin has the same properties as Ag/Au, it makes them look foolish.
     
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  11. smilershouse

    smilershouse Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Joking, you have a valid point. And I confess that when I realized that by exchanging 1000 ounces of the (silver) dog in 2009 and buying BTC,
    I would be a whopping $19, 600, 000 better off, or would own 63 houses outright renting at $20,000 every week I would be a liar if I stated otherwise. Like many here we are all greedy and perhaps begrudge missing out on such a rare opportunity to make a large sum of money. Yes, many were were left at the station, the train has left and many are now thinking differently. For BTC owners the hope is for a high speed train to evolve. However many skeptics here - and I confess to being one of them, are highly suspect of the current mania in BTC and are anticipating a train wreck. These insane prices of a single BTC are in very unstable territories. If I were to exchange 1000 ounces of the dog into BTC today, I would only be able to buy 20.4 BTC. Now that is a huge risk, compared to acquiring 19,600,00 BTC during its embryonic inception of 2009. What troubles me with the theory that many buyers are Chinese, is that only a very small percentage of Chinese gents and ladies can actually afford to buy BTC at the current price. Perhaps 90% + still lives in abject poverty. Or the economic gamblers, are up to their necks in debt with a troubled real estate market and other enterprises, financed by a private, and very shadowy - high IR lending practices. The Chinese miracle is running out of puff. No one around the world is able to borrow money to buy their tat anymore as the West is also up to its neck in debt. So the investment vehicle is now in the S. China sea and the MIC. China is starting to flex its military muscles with Russia tagging along. And this money (investment) has to come from somewhere, namely, Govt spending/borrowing/printing/buying its own debt rah de rah de rah, ................So where is BTC heading now? The global serf, govts,- and so called national banks, are currently swamped in debt. Much of the world peoples are running at a loss. But the SX and BTC are reaching new highs? I am sure many here will thus agree, and indeed beg the question; What an earth is happening and how the heck is this happening? I doubt the same question was ever asked during the Tulip bubble...............................BTC is currently in a frenzy, or is starting to become one.


    Your post Gun Ban Extremist typifies, - as well as confirms what is going on @ BTC HQ. That is, with a click of a mouse people have just lost 16% of their hard earned money buying BTC just a day ago, just by trying to ride the bull and making a quick buck. Or 'influential forces' have made 16% by selling at the right time.

    Is the drop connected to a demand and supply in BTC , or is BTC a casino? If the drop has moved money profits, where did those profits adventure into? Is the 16% drop a bear trap? No one it seems, - except the big boys perhaps, knows the answer to this question. All I wish to point out is, that with all said and done, the PM fondler and groper knows his or her stash/precious, is tangible and is worth something, even if 'software' crashed. In fact if software assets crashed, so would the banking and govt systems. And bullion would be worth a whole lot more.


    SH
     
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  12. Flight2gold

    Flight2gold Silver Member Silver Miner Site Supporter ++

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    @goldielox1

    That's a pretty arrogant statement. I don't believe anyone comes here looking for respect from another member.
    To ease your mind, Gold and silver don't compare to digital currencies.
    BTW, I'll be happy to say it in a more friendly manner.......and I don't need your respect for doing it.
    "I know a bitcoin is just an internet currency, but I'm confident I can find a buyer to pay more than I did in the future."
    Kinda sounds similar to some stocks I know and Govt. Treasuries.
    Like any other investment do your own research and take the risk.
    Bitcoins saving grace is the capped total of 21 million.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2017
  13. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    BTC is a relatively small market driven by S&D. That said, that are many more people involved in BTC than there were 5 years ago. Hence the price difference.
    ...and in another 5 years there will likely be even more involved in it than there is now. If so, the price while going up or down on a day to day basis, will end up much higher than it is today.



    What percent on Ag did people make/lose when it tested $50 a few years ago? Or Au when it hit $1900?
    The same you say about BTC could be said about those too.



    Right there is the answer.
    Imagine what Ag's price would be today if 21million SAE's were all the silver that would ever exist.
    ...and there were millions of people looking to acquire even a portion of one of 'em. What would that mean for your stash?

    Again, scarcity is the key to anything holding its value. As example, if everyone who wants a house already has one and there is an endless supply of new ones, what's that do to your resale value when it's time for you to sell your house? You better hope there's not enough to go around if you want to get out of it what you think it's worth.
     
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  14. goldielox1

    goldielox1 Silver Miner Seeker

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    I appreciate your honesty.

    There's some problems with your analogy:

    Treasuries are always worth face value if held to maturity. If you own them then you are placing your trust in the dollar. But if you trust the dollar, you can always hold the treasury and the interest payments are known and fixed as is the principal. Treasury value on a day-to-day basis may fluctuate with interest rates but that only matters if you're not holding to redemption. There is no default risk, again, if you trust the dollar.

    Stocks are ownership stakes in a company. So there is a floor on the value which is book value.

    Bitcoin is based on nothing. While the other examples you list can have a speculative portion of their value (As can Ag/Au of course), but bitcoin is 100% speculative since it has no underlying value.
     
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  15. smilershouse

    smilershouse Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Quite true Joe. As stated in post 163 previously, the derivative GLD/SLV markets dictates the price of bullion. No bullion was ever exchanged nor ever will be whilst the contracts of the SLV/GLD change hands.

    SH
     
  16. Poorman

    Poorman Seeker

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    You couldn't be more wrong.

    The Bitcoin hydra has over 600 altcoins which are derivatives of Bitcoin.

    Some have coin caps and some do not.

    Point is if they had to roll on Bitcoin they would just pick another one.

    Furthermore, to them Bitcoin is "the gold" and other cryptos like Ethereum have no coin cap.

    Endless creation for the one they call "just like real currency" as they leave Bitcoin the fixed fools gold.

    It's all fiat as they try and usurp the inevitable economic reset that belongs to real money which is gold and silver.
     
  17. Poorman

    Poorman Seeker

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    Basically what we are seeing with Bitcoin is the entire history of the US dollar squeezed into 8 years.

    One thing that adopters don't understand is that they will not let it hyper inflate like what will happen to the real economy.

    It was a simulation to show the future how the age of ponzi is over and we are going to return to real life no matter how bad it hurts.
     
  18. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    That makes about as much sense as trying to point out problems with the Dollar by explaining what's wrong with the Russian Ruble. lol They are two different types of currency. Same as with BTC and all the other crypto currency's.
    ...and BTC is NOT fiat. To be fiat would require a gov decree. BTC on the other hand is a grass-roots led currency of the People. Ie: completely beyond any .gov decrees that it either be or not be a currency.


    I get it. You don't like it and don't want others to like it, because if they do and BTC truly takes off, you'll end up being forced to participate. That'd be a real doozy, wouldn't it? Kinda like no matter how much I dislike our current monetary system, I'm forced to participate just to be able to purchase the stuff of life. BTC at least offers the potential of a way out of that system we've all been locked into for so long.
    ...and it amazes me that people who supposedly can see the problems with our current system, rail against any possibilty of a way out of it. It's as though misery truly does love company.

    As far as I'm concerned, it wouldn't bother me one bit if BTC should become the ONLY currency. That would get the gov's of the World completely out of the currency creation racket and allow for regular people savings to grow in value over time.
    ...but apparently you like being locked into an inflationary monetary system that eats away at your savings on a continuous basis.
     
  19. MIavatar

    MIavatar Seeker

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    Did they ever find that Japanese dude that made it yet? I am bitter. Coulda made out at $35.00. I just console my self that it's steadily running the beast network decoding hashes for? [CERN?]
     
  20. MIavatar

    MIavatar Seeker

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    So, you need immense computing power to make these "hashes"
    Lame ass computing siphoning techniques to siphon computing power for the beast network. IE TRACKING YOU
     
  21. MIavatar

    MIavatar Seeker

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    What site you trust you "wallet " to? Silk road 1 is gone as far as I know.
     
  22. MIavatar

    MIavatar Seeker

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    My opinion, A bunch of computer programmers got together and figured out how to siphon as much computing power as they could. Hey, might as well make a few millions off it too. We can also power CERN, SETI, ETC.. with the Computing power. Hash based sql basically. Different records and table in SQL. That's what I see.
     
  23. Gun Ban Extremist

    Gun Ban Extremist Seeker Seeker

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    $400 down since last week... it's not looking pretty.

    20170111_CMC.PNG
     
  24. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Yep, it's a volatile market. If one can't stand the heat of it, best to avoid it IMHO.
    ...and like I already said, Au/Ag should have such ups and downs. At least more often than once every 30 years would be nice.
     
  25. goldielox1

    goldielox1 Silver Miner Seeker

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    Didn't you hear? Ethereim Classic had a negative outlook.

    What happened to that Simpleton that was pumping this turd?
     
  26. goldielox1

    goldielox1 Silver Miner Seeker

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    BTW, my paper weights look as shiny as ever.
     
  27. Flight2gold

    Flight2gold Silver Member Silver Miner Site Supporter ++

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    Bitcoin Plummets After China Launches "Market Manipulation" Investigations Of Bitcoin Exchanges
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-...arket-manipulation-investigations-bitcoin-exc

    Anything that stands in the way of helping individuals succeed either gets shutdown or investigated.
    What's the next way for someone in China to somehow maintain your wealth?
    Obviously PM's, but you probably don't want to put 100% of your wealth into pm's and the lines for buying are around the block in Hong Kong.
    You can bet that whatever blockchain currency the banks put out will never be investigated.
     
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  28. Flight2gold

    Flight2gold Silver Member Silver Miner Site Supporter ++

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    @goldielox1
    Since you enjoy my honestly, I have to say that contributing to the conversation is a healthy thing but your comments of late appear very trollish.
    Bragging about the shininess of certain human body parts being one example.
    All in fun and jest.......
     
  29. goldielox1

    goldielox1 Silver Miner Seeker

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    It was a joke. Figured it would lighten up the mood a bit.
     
  30. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Don't know about anyone else, but my mood is just fine. It's you that seems peeved about BTC.
    If you don't like it, don't use it.
    I just hope for your sake that the central banks of the World don't eventually decide to create their own version of it that you then become forced to participate in due to the masses using it. Wouldn't that be a hoot? lol
     
  31. smilershouse

    smilershouse Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    What worries me is the parabolic rise of BTC.......................But then, this time could be different

    SH
     
  32. goldielox1

    goldielox1 Silver Miner Seeker

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    Why are you so angry about BTC crashing? How much are you speculating on it?
     
  33. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    I don't give two shits what it does because I don't care what some people want to put their money into. If you want BTC, use it. If not, don't use it.
    All I'm doing is pointing out why some people like it as there are some merits to it. Is it perfect? No it's not, but what in life is perfect to all people? Nothing I know of. Well, maybe O2 is. lol
     
  34. Poorman

    Poorman Seeker

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    You couldn't be more correct.
     
  35. Flight2gold

    Flight2gold Silver Member Silver Miner Site Supporter ++

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    Right now Bitcoin has a cap around 18 billion $, maybe a little less since the drop.
    Gold's cap, the last I looked was 6.4 trillion $.
    What are we even arguing about ?
    The validity of something that is minuscule in comparison.
     
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  36. Nomis Elpmis

    Nomis Elpmis Minimalist Silver Miner

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    Bitcoin passed it's all time high of $1165 today. 'COIN' ETF approval dicision on the 11th of next month.
    upload_2017-2-23_21-50-39.png
     
  37. Nomis Elpmis

    Nomis Elpmis Minimalist Silver Miner

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    Here's a forecast. However, I have no credibility as a forecaster. Just looking at/for patterns. Approval of the Bitcoin ETF would of maintained the parabolic rise. I think there's a bottom a $950ish. Sold out well above a $1000. Half in Ethereums and half in cash. Waiting for sub $1000 Bitcoin.
    BitCast.jpg
     
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  38. solarion

    solarion Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    I'm glad the ETF got canned. Just another way for banksters to counterfeit and for poorly informed investors(gamblers) to get what they mistakenly believe to be "exposure". Imagine where PM prices would be today without so many twinkies buying "shares" of the pie-in-the-sky bankster scam twinkie funds rather than stacking actual metal in their own safes.

    Bitcoin exposure is really simple...just trade some lame-o fiat for bitcoin.
     
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  39. Silver Art

    Silver Art Silver Art Bar collector Platinum Bling

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    Bitcoin is currently at $1334.51 (Bitpay quote) which I believe is an all-time high. The fact that the Bitcoin ETF got rejected by the SEC did not stop the BTC $ price from breaking $1300 on the upside.

    I think that trading GBTC (Bitcoin Investment Trust) on an online trading account is the only way to play the bitcoin price movement without buying BTC directly.
     
  40. Silver Art

    Silver Art Silver Art Bar collector Platinum Bling

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    With the BTC $ price currently at $1354 (based on Coinbase quote), that makes my small 0.22 BTC investment (currently worth $30.30 according to my Coinbase account) up ~175% since June 9, 2016 (the last time that I converted BTC faucet earnings to silver) when that same .022 BTC investment was worth $11 on June 9, 2016.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2017

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