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BitGold Lights Gold's Fire

Discussion in 'Digital Currencies' started by Scorpio, May 15, 2015.



  1. Hunts1980

    Hunts1980 Banned

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    There is nothing there, how can someone prefer nothing to something.

    I prefer gold, there is no middle men in gold. The value is in and of itself.

    Yes there are middlemen in bitgold, but the answer is keep most in physical privately held you can touch and just a little in bitgold for long distance transactions.
     
  2. solarion

    solarion Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    Bitgold isn't gold though, it's gold by proxy. Just hanging the word gold on it doesn't make it trustworthy.

    Bitgold is not something...it's nothing. I prefer something to nothing. Something = private bitcoin keys. Nothing = bitgold and if/when governments decide to turn on bitgold and shut it down, it will be a nice, juicy, centralized target.
     
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  3. motowngold

    motowngold New Member

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    It is not gold by proxy, it is gold stored in a vault, allocated only to you, that you can have delivered to you at anytime. Here is their website for more info.
    https://www.bitgold.com/
     
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  4. solarion

    solarion Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    Thanks. Not interested in trusting others to manage my gold. Rather store my wealth in physical gold/silver/lead etc where I can personally defend it and use something like bitcoin that doesn't require banks or middlemen when absolutely necessary.
     
  5. Scorpio

    Scorpio Скорпион Founding Member Board Elder Site Mgr Site Supporter ++

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    all systems of whatever type are based on trust,

    the fiat dollar or these johnny come lately gold schemes of one type or another,

    does one really trust a corporation with your possessions?

    really?

    does one also post on facebook.gov?

    guess who determines the rules for rightful ownership?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possession_is_nine-tenths_of_the_law
     
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  6. Hunts1980

    Hunts1980 Banned

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    I was a big proponent of bitgold, now my account has just been disabled. Ive asked them Hi why has my account been disabled? no answer yet.

    anybody else had problems?
     
  7. Hunts1980

    Hunts1980 Banned

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    Bitcoin isn't gold though.

    Bitcoin is not something...it's nothing. I prefer something to nothing. Something = private gold in hand or secured vault. Nothing = bitcoin and if/when governments decide to turn on bitcoin and shut it down, it will be a nice, juicy, centralized target


    Hold most of your bullion in private physical possession, if you can buy and live with hand to hand transactions like most of history great. But today, there needs to be a way of digitally transacting with bullion over long distance, this will be required after the fiat system collapses. Yes you need trust and there is risk, so do not keep too much in digital vault storage.
     
  8. Hunts1980

    Hunts1980 Banned

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    Apparently I created too many accounts and got too much free gold. Let this be a warning, you can't just keep creating email addresses to get free gold grams. They are making it harder.
     
  9. solarion

    solarion Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    Right. Bitgold is YOUR gold in someone ELSE'S hand and someone ELSE'S secured vault. This isn't a new concept, it's played out thousands of times throughout history. That's why the rule is "if you don't hold it...you don't own it."

    If you think bitcoin is centralized then plainly your understanding of bitcoin is even less complete than my own.
     
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  10. Hunts1980

    Hunts1980 Banned

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    I know bitcoin is not centralised. I simply said if governments decide to shut it down/make it illegal or confiscate everyone units of bitcoin there is nothing you can do. If they try this with gold, there is something you can do, just keep it secret. This is impossible with bitcoin.

    Yes you will lose any digital gold, this is why you should only keep a minimum amount in there for transactions where you cant physically hand over the bullion.
     
  11. solarion

    solarion Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    WHAT? Sure the government could simply declare bitcoin illegal, just as they've done with specific plants, alcohol, and GOLD in the past but that hasn't stopped any of these things from being utilized. Please explain how government would accomplish the confiscation of everyone's bitcoin or the shutdown of the blockchain. Also please explain why it is impossible to keep bitcoin secret.
     
  12. motowngold

    motowngold New Member

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    You do not have to trust them, you simply buy it, and have it delivered to your bunker it sounds like, lol.
     
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  13. Hunts1980

    Hunts1980 Banned

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    All your arguments for how great bitcoin is, can apply to a physically backed crypto currency on the blockchain. But I still think there is more risk than bullion held in your hands, but in the future being able to use blockchain tech to spend or receive grams of bullion will be the next worlds monetary system.

    Number 1 priority is your own bullion you can touch, number 2 will be one of the many physical bullion backed crypto currencies coming out, bitgold is just one. The Real Asset Company are working on something similar, but using blockchain tech, each gram of bullion can be digitally spent or received, or withdrawn and held privately.

    Im sorry but unbacked crypto like bitcoin, litecoin and dogecoin just can not compete with bullion backed crypto. It is the difference between nothing and something.
     
  14. Morpheus

    Morpheus Seeker Seeker

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    So am I to understand that James Turk will no longer be involve in the operations of Goldmoney or the Bitgold/Goldmoney merged company?
     
  15. the_shootist

    the_shootist The war is here on our doorstep! Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    When it comes to my gold and silver, if I don't hold it I don't have it! I trust no one with my PMs as much as I trust myself. That's just me folks....your mileage may vary!
     
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  16. solarion

    solarion Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    Guess we're done here. I never said anything like "how great bitcoin is" and I'll thank you to stop mis-characterizing my words. You ignored every question I asked and again went on to yammer about how much better bullion in hand is than cryptos(which we both agree on), yet you're posting all this on a thread that advocates turning your bullion over to someone else to facilitate payment processing. These guys want to use blockchain(crypto currency) tech while backhandedly bashing on cryptos and encouraging gold bugs to turn possession of their bullion over to them to give blockchain tech legitimacy. It's a circle jerk. The blockchain tech at the core of bitgold is already capable of transferring wealth across the planet virtually cost free without anyone trusting their bullion to a third party.

    ...and once again. Bullion NOT in your hand is nothing. Private crypto keys that ONLY YOU control is something.

    Store your own wealth yourself in bullion and when you have to transfer funds great distances use crypto technology. There's no need to create counter-party risk here.
     
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  17. Hunts1980

    Hunts1980 Banned

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    Firstly I don't think anybody is talking about turning your bullion over to them, you keep most of your bullion privately held. But for accepting payments or putting a bit of fiat into bullion to pay for things, a little held in digital form may prove useful as an alternative to other currencies.

    I'm all for competition in currencies, let Mr market work out which one is used the most, backed or unpacked currencies.

    Secondly, I don't understand what your talking about the block chain tech is perfectly capable of transferring ownership of bullion in vaults? This is what I am saying, yes this is the point I wanted to make.

    It doesn't have to be bitgold, there are others and more coming. If Bitcoin could be backed by bullion then people would be more inclined
     
  18. Scorpio

    Scorpio Скорпион Founding Member Board Elder Site Mgr Site Supporter ++

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    everybody is talking about it as that is the part you do not get, or choose to gloss over

    now quit arguing that point as on their website it clearly states as much,

    it is in their possession, not yours

    we don't party with pumpers around here.

    on another note,

    you put up your gold, then you have use of it digitally which you then relinquish to them unless you replenish

    when you execute a transaction, your gold is sold + a fee, the rest remains in their storage,
     
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  19. Hunts1980

    Hunts1980 Banned

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    The cost and the logistics mean I doubt that will happen much, who on earth would send their actual private bullion to them? Hardly ever.

    What does happen is you send them your fiat and buy new gold that is held in the vault. Or accept gold as payments instead of fiat.

    I actually like the real asset company who have a better version of bitgold coming out soon, this really could be Bitcoin 2.0 it will work exactly like the old unbacked Bitcoin but this one will be backed by either gold grams or silver grams.

    I mean how can anybody value a unit of unbacked currency like Bitcoin or doge coin? There is nothing to go on.

    But grams of monetary precious metal, there are thousands of years history.
     
  20. Scorpio

    Scorpio Скорпион Founding Member Board Elder Site Mgr Site Supporter ++

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    you are arguing semantics to try to pump this pos,

    whether you send them gold or buy it from them, it is still your gold, and you are giving them possession of it,

    please refrain from pumping it just because you buy into the story,

    more power to you, but you are putting out grossly bad information

    bitgold is not backed by gold, it is backed by your own possessions as collateral under their control,

    that is not a currency backed by anything, they are a expeditor, that is all

    anyone can do the same thing that has storage, whether it be JMB, APMEX, PROV, etc.

    If I have it wrong great, but I don't believe I do from the research completed on it
     
  21. motowngold

    motowngold New Member

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    Old, crogetty and unimaginative American gold bugs, a group of which many would say I am closing in on, are not going to be the drivers for a stock like this initially. It will be a younger, and often non American group that uses it because of necessity, convenience, or due to news like the one offered below.

    Many people in this world do not have a local coin shop just around the corner to buy American gold eagles at. This solves that problem and a myriad of others. For those that want to participate in a gold bull market, the use of gold in their portfolio, a new trading vehicle, the ability to buy in more affordable increments, or to lessen paper exposure, this offers a new and viable solution that previously did not exist.

    I will admit, I do not know how to value this company at this time. I am usually pretty good at it, but the value is not intrinsic at this time. If Edison or Ford offered you stock before the company was built, should you have turned it down because of the lack of intrinsic value? Of course the answer is no, the value was in the idea, not the brick and mortar that had not yet been built. J.P Morgan saw this and changed the world by electrifying it with Edison's idea. I am not saying Bitgold will have that kind of impact, just that the idea has value for those that want to take a chance at current prices, the reward may be great. My plan, I took a position, if it drops, I will buy more.

    sinclairs's $50,000 POG may be low
    http://www.silverdoctors.com/jim-sinclairs-50000-gold-call-may-be-laughably-low-bill-holter/
     
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  22. solarion

    solarion Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    Yet somehow fiat currency...backed by NOTHING save the business end of a gun is what the world runs on. Imagine that.

    You're preaching to the choir here dood. Nearly everybody here is a goldbug, a silver whore, or both.

    PMs have one weakness as money, they're not easily digitized and transmitted great distances inexpensively. This is what cryptos absolutely destroy all the competition at doing and they do it while totally eliminating BANKERS and middle men. Until digitization of solid matter for rapid and inexpensive transmission vast distances becomes a reality PMs are not going to be practical for electronic transactions. Rather than transmitting fiat to someone to convert to gold so that THEY can "empower" you to transmit fiat, doesn't it make more sense to convert fiat to bitcoin yourself and transmit that?

    I realize it's a steep learning curve, as I'm just beginning to wrap my head around it myself, but perhaps it would make more sense if you actually studied the blockchain technology at the heart of bitgold.
     
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  23. solarion

    solarion Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    To this old "crogetty and unimaginative Amerikan gold/silver bug" gold(and silver) are money, not an investment. Sending away portions of my wealth to invest in pieces of a company in a thoroughly rigged stock market isn't my cup of tea, but best of luck to you. If you can try to get stock certificates you can hold in your hand.(again good luck)

    Imo these guys at bitgold are just trying to cash in on the attributes of gold and bitcoin without offering much value or innovation. This is the worst of both worlds to my way of thinking. You're hamstringing bitcoin by linking it to something physical that can't be easily transmitted and you're violating the prime reason to own gold. If you don't hold it...you don't own it. I value this company just above where I'd value facebook or twatter.
     
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  24. Hunts1980

    Hunts1980 Banned

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    Let's get something straight I'm not pumping bitgold. I am pumping gold and silver to be used as money again, that's what this forum is all about is it not?

    There will be several options of digitally paying and receiving gold and silver grams in the future, bitgold is one of them.

    Yes there are ETFs and other storage options but you can not have a debit card and pay for things or get someone to pay you. As I have said I like the real asset company who will soon have a competitor to bitgold.

    All these bullion backed currency systems are far better than unbacked currency like Bitcoin or lite coin or max coin. But even unbacked crypto is better than unbacked fiat.
     
  25. Hunts1980

    Hunts1980 Banned

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    It's not a very steep learning curve it's very simple. There are differences between currency and money. Lot of things have been used as currency shells sticks, paper notes and more recently digital ones and zeros on computers. There are only two things that have been money that hold their value over long period of time... Gold and silver.

    Bitcoin and all unbacked currency systems like fiat are just currency, not money.

    Only gold and silver are money. If there are ways of digitally changing ownership of serial numbered physical bullion grams in a vault then this could be a monetary system for the modern age. There will need to be trust but this can not be avoided with any system. Bitcoin needs trust, I for one trust backed units rather than unbacked units on a competed block chain.
     
  26. solarion

    solarion Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    Thanks, this explains a whole lot. Seems you failed to follow my request for clarification when you made broad(WRONG) claims about government's ability to attack bitcoin because you don't actually know anything about bitcoin and it seems you're unwilling to look into it further. Given that apparent fact, why would you want to do business with a company that's offering a product built around bitcoin?

    I'll refresh your memory on the off chance that it'll help:

    Money
    [muhn-ee]

    noun, plural moneys, monies.

    1. any circulating medium of exchange, including coins, paper money, and demand deposits.
    2. paper money.
    3. gold, silver, or other metal in pieces of convenient form stamped by public authority and issued as a medium of exchange and measure of value.
    4. any article or substance used as a medium of exchange, measure of wealth, or means of payment, as checks on demand deposit or cowrie.
    5. a particular form or denomination of currency.
    6. money of account.
    7. capital to be borrowed, loaned, or invested: mortgage money.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/money?s=t

    While I would agree that gold and silver are the best forms of money thus far used by humans they need not be the only forms of money. Copper could be, and has been money, for instance.

    If you open your mind for a moment and articulate what makes Au & Ag such exceptional candidates to serve as money, I think you'll come up with a list similar to this one:

    1. portable
    2. durable
    3. divisible
    4. fungible
    5. store of value

    While bitcoin certainly has some shortcomings it meets the majority of these requirements quite well, better than gold in some and worse in others. It's certainly more portable and divisible than PMs.

    I'm not suggesting people dump gold and silver for bitcoin or store their life savings in the stuff, I just don't understand why it has to be "GOLD AND SILVER ARE THE ONLY MONEY", when clearly gold and silver have some short comings that make them difficult to use as a method of payment over vast distances. Federal Reserve Notes also suck as a payment system for use over vast distances, that's why we convert them to digital "dollars" bank credits and use those. I would argue that bitcoin is infinitely superior to bank credits for this purpose.
     
  27. Hunts1980

    Hunts1980 Banned

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    Bitcoin is not a store of value over long periods of time, it is a currency. Stop pumping Bitcoin.

    Only gold and silver fill all the requirements of currency and money and are a long term store of value.

    Let's agree to disagree, but I maintain governments could shut down Bitcoin or make it illegal to use. If this happens with gold and silver it just goes underground on the black market, this can't happen with Bitcoin because it's tracible. Disagree with me all you want but the ptb could stop Bitcoin in more ways than you can imagine.
     
  28. Mujahideen

    Mujahideen Black Member Midas Member

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    This shit is retarded.

    The best gold backed currency is physical Au.
     
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  29. solarion

    solarion Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    Done.
     
  30. Hunts1980

    Hunts1980 Banned

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    And there will be ways of transferring ownership of serial numbered physical AU and AG digitally over long distances. This will be the next worlds monetary system, none of these retarded unbacked crypto.
     
  31. Mujahideen

    Mujahideen Black Member Midas Member

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    If I want to send gold to someone in the middle of Africa, will they be able to get delivery for $25?
     
  32. Gun Ban Extremist

    Gun Ban Extremist Seeker Seeker

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    Not likely. I doubt $25 would be enough for any delivery service to hazard steaming jungles, bloodthirsty lions, and pygmies with poisonous blowdarts. That's precisely one of the motivations for gold-backed cryptocurrencies.
     
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  33. Hunts1980

    Hunts1980 Banned

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    Exactly right, there will be a need for block chain tech way of transferring ownership of physical bullion in vaults.

    You need to be able to take delivery and withdraw if you so wish, this will prevent someone creating more promises of physical than they actually hold physical. With the possibility of withdrawing, there should not be more promises created than exist. There should be periodic runs on the depositories, keep them honest.

    This will be the next worlds monetary system, non of this unbacked Bitcoin nonsense.
     
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  34. Scorpio

    Scorpio Скорпион Founding Member Board Elder Site Mgr Site Supporter ++

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    'yer right, lets get something straight,

    it is not backed by gold,
    these are your opinions, existing without any backup documentation

    ----------------

    I could clearly see where the rest of the world needs something other than the US dollar to work with. Many countries being more technically advanced with infrastructure than we are whether it be wifi or? One of these (bitcoin/bitgold/whatever) is going to go and go big when it hits critical mass of acceptance.

    and I also would surmise that there are going to be a lot of people making a lot of dough off of this just as some did with bitcoin,
    buying at a buck to 10 bucks and now it is at about 235 after having been to 900 or whatever,

    good for them,
     
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  35. Hunts1980

    Hunts1980 Banned

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    We are in agreement Scorpio the current international monetary system from 1971 will be replaced by something.

    My reasons for not liking Bitcoin or any unbacked currency is because there is no measuring stick, how can little old ladies like my grandmother work out how many satoshis a pint of milk is worth? How many turnips can you buy with one satoshi? It could be one or one hundred, there is no measuring stick.

    But with gold or silver backed block chain crypto currency there is a measuring stick. My grandmother can understand this many grams of gold or silver are the price of her groceries.

    The free market works out the value with supply and demand.
     
  36. solarion

    solarion Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    Huh? Bitcoin doesn't conform to the laws of supply and demand but silver and gold do? Tell me...is it possible to naked short sell gold and silver by counterfeiting it with paper contracts? Can you do this with bitcoin at this time?

    You say bitcoin is a currency and cannot be money because it isn't a stable store of value over long periods of time like gold and silver, but this comment ignores the fact that bitcoin is 8 years old. Gold and silver are billions of years old. Not to mention the fact that your idea of "value" is "dollars" and gold and silver too can be quite volatile at times in "dollar" terms as evidenced by the rise in silver's "value" relative to "dollars" from 2000 - 2011 and the collapse in "value" relative to "dollars" since that time. Doesn't seem all that stable to me in "dollar" terms.

    PLEASE don't just ignore these questions as you have every other time I've asked for clarification following one of your wild assertions.
     
  37. Scorpio

    Scorpio Скорпион Founding Member Board Elder Site Mgr Site Supporter ++

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    this is a pic of bitcoin/bitgold and so on holders,


    1.jpg


    while I stated people can and do make dough off these things, doesn't mean I agree with it or will participate,

    I will go old school and stick to tangible stuff where your word is good, a handshake means something, and your money isn't some kibbles and bits

    Not going to be doing any business with china anytime so have no need for 'international' transactions,
    and if I did they have these little things called 'wire transfers' that suffice,
    Don't deal drugs, so no need to launder anything,
    Not going to Mars anytime soon, so don't need any space money capability
    etc.

    So here are a couple of questions:

    -do the bit currencies increase security? No, not even a little, proven time and again hackers bring 'em down

    -do the bit currencies protect you from .gov? Many instances of .gov taking over a persons kibbles accts

    -what advantages does a kibbles acct have over a standard acct? The word is that kibbles accts operate with a identity cloak. Is that true or does it get broken in time?

    -do kibbles accts make international transfers easier? Very possibly so should you need such capability.


    as for bitgold and how completely ridiculous that one is,

    I am not going to put up my gold, entrust it with some pos corporation, to go down to the store and swipe their card for groceries.
    All this while adding market fluctuation risk to your acct entrusted with them.

    It is so retarded it boggles the mind that persons would buy into this pos.
     
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  38. solarion

    solarion Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    While I understand the reservations with regard to cryptos...as I have some of my own reservations. There is however a massive pile of misinformation that regularly circulates regarding them and it's generally perpetuated by people that don't understand cryptos and won't do much of anything to further their understanding, yet seemingly have no problem with pretending as though they understand what they're talking about. Hunts1980 appears to be one such individual and the fact that he keeps making wild claims that he refuses to back up isn't doing anything for his credibility.

    Some of the things you yourself just posted Scorp are very easily debated. For instance:

    Disagree completely. Cryptos should rightly be thought of as cash in hand. Cash that can be transmitted anywhere in the world instantly for nearly zero cost and without any middle-men needed to facilitate. Cash that is very very well secured if the holder wishes to utilize the security measures that it incorporates. YES websites that deal in cryptos have been hacked many times(sometimes by the operators of the website themselves) and cryptos have been stolen, but blaming the crypto itself for being stolen is akin to blaming bars of gold for being physical. The bitcoin algorithm itself has never been hackedand the people that lost bitcoin because someone hacked a website and stole them lost their bitcoin because they trusted someone else to store their wealth. This is PRECISELY the problem I have with bitgold. If you don't hold it...you don't own it.

    Yes, bit currencies do protect you from .gov in some crucial ways. They protect you from inflation, and they eliminate the necessity of dealing with banksters. Sure .gov mobsters have kidnapped individuals, put them in cages, stolen their computer equipment, and extorted passwords at gunpoint to enable the theft of cryptos, but that's because gangsters are going to behave like gangsters. Mobsters can and have stolen gold and silver utilizing the very same methods.

    Crypto transactions are public record. However, the only information stored about the originator of the transaction is a string of characters known as an address, this address can only be linked to an individual if that individual links themself to it. Many privacy minded crypto enthusiasts refuse to use the same address more than once and simply discard them after every transaction.
     
  39. Hunts1980

    Hunts1980 Banned

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    You answers it yourself, Bitcoin can't be a store of value over long periods because it hasn't been around for long periods of time. Only if it stands the test of time and holds its value can it be truly a store of value. Time will tell, but I think Bitcoin liteoin and all the other unbacked currencies will go the way of the dogecoin. Backed currencies, actually backed and redeemable for something real that is a store of value will be what the free market chooses.

    I don't look at short term dollar price, it means nothing, value is everything.
     
  40. solarion

    solarion Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    You've said "only gold and silver can be money", plainly excluding everything not gold and silver from being money, so in your opinion, bitcoin can never be money regardless of it's properties as a store of value. Neither can, according to you, copper be money.

    I too prefer gold and silver to store my wealth, but gold and silver are useless for online payment purposes. The differences we seem to have is that I'm intrigued with the idea of using cryptos for facilitating online payments and you favor bitgold. However bitgold is merely a front end for bank credits as a means of facilitating online payments and bank credits are, IMO, grotesquely inferior to bitcoin for this purpose. The inclusion of gold in the bitgold equation is irrelevant as the payment system in use is still bank credit or digital "dollars". I can use that system without introducing bitgold as a middleman. I already have a debit card.

    Where do you think dogecoin went? The global supply of dogecoins are worth 12,933 ounces of gold($15m) they're not going anywhere anytime soon. Holders of dogecoin can convert them to silver or gold at anytime and have that physical bullion shipped directly to them. The global supply of bitcoin is worth roughly 212 times as much and it too is not going anywhere anytime soon. With every post you reveal a profound lack of knowledge about cryptos, yet you seem to want to invest in and utilize a system that combines crypto technology with commodities. This is a horrible idea, because as I've already stated it hamstrings both cryptos and commodity money.

    Can you tell me why you seem to think the laws of supply and demand don't apply to bitcoin?
     

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