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Do you really believe in private property

Discussion in 'Politics Forum (Local/National/World)' started by Ensoniq, Sep 7, 2017.



?

should "price gouging" be criminalized?

  1. Yes

    7 vote(s)
    23.3%
  2. No

    23 vote(s)
    76.7%
  1. Ensoniq

    Ensoniq Midas Member Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    you may have heard about the coming huricane.

    Is "price gouging" criminalized legitimately? Should the dude who owns that case of water be prohibited or even jailed for selling it at a price more than the government deems fair?

    Or, is the "oh the inhumanity" argument correct? It's an emergency and people's needs should be prioritized (by law) over property rights?

    I can dislike that people want to charge $100 or more per case of water but recognize that I have no say over what they do with what they own.

    Vote the poll please
     
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  2. gringott

    gringott Killed then Resurrected Midas Member Site Supporter

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    How can they make price gouging illegal in Houston when the day after the storm hit all the gas stations here in my area of Kentucky raised the price on the gas in their holding tanks by 40 cents a gallon? Because the price to replace it MIGHT GO UP IN THE FUTURE. If that is ok, than anything goes.

    If a bad wheat harvest is predicted, does the price of bread on the shelf jump by 15%? Didn't think so.

    If you own something and that product becomes scarce, you should be able to raise the price to what the market will bear. Huge quantities of water were falling from the sky in Houston, free for the taking, why are they buying bottled water?

    Stupid people who refuse to take care of themselves.
     
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  3. glockngold

    glockngold Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    I as a seller should be able to charge whatever the market will bear.
    I as a consumer will remember who treats me the best.
    There is no constitutional right to gasoline & bottled water.
     
  4. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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    Voted yes.

    I can understand the "flip side" and even agree with it up to a point. But I would hate to be in a position where I actually needed something to survive and be denied it because I couldn't afford to pay a kings ransom for a bottle of water or a ham sandwich.
     
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  5. glockngold

    glockngold Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    I would hate that too. And if I had a whole hog, I'd never deny you a sandwich.
    But if I have raised pork for a living, & my insurance company has been raising & raising my health coverage rates to where I can barely swing it...
    Suddenly he "needs a sandwich".
     
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  6. Cigarlover

    Cigarlover Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Socialist policies drive me crazy. Where do we draw the line?
    I do understand that people may be hungry and thirsty and I feel for them. In many cases I may just share what I can.
    On the other hand, everyone in these storm areas has or had ample warning to leave. They chose to stay so IMO they can pay for that decision.. They chose to stay and didn't have food and water put up? Now I will be punished for planning ahead. They want to fine me 2500 dollars for selling a bottle of water for 3 bucks? I'll take my chances in court. The punishment has to fit the crime. Anything else is just extortion.
    We also live in a capitalist society where the laws of supply and demand are supposed to be in effect.
    Now if we want to go further on socialist policies and health care is a right.. Is it more of a right than a roof over your head or food and water for life? If healthcare is a right than so are these other items.
     
  7. gringott

    gringott Killed then Resurrected Midas Member Site Supporter

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    I have a right to procreate [have sex]. Where's my free women?
     
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  8. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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    Me personally.............I don't see that as price gouging. Selling needed items at a fair price to people in an emergency situation is to be applauded.

    It's when someone tries to royally rob someone in dire straits that isn't right.

     
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  9. Goldhedge

    Goldhedge Moderator Site Mgr Site Supporter

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    Legislating morality never works.
     
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  10. phoneman

    phoneman Silver Member Silver Miner

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    Sounds like todays medical and drug business. If you want to live come up with the money or die. If you ever get a chance, break down a hospital bill and see the rip off they pull. If you think the medical industry is trying to find a cure for cancer, I've got a couple of countries I can sell you.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2017
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  11. SheepDog68

    SheepDog68 Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Messing with the free market always makes things worse!

    Government control price will mean very little to no stock available regardless of need!

    Free market would mean anyone with a truck driving in with whatever they thought would sale! Prices would drop and there would be stock available the whole time!

    SD
     
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  12. Thecrensh

    Thecrensh Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    I'm torn on this. There is market stresses, then there is pure dickheadsmanship. In most cases, the water has already been bought and paid for at that store...they are merely jacking up the price to take advantage of an opportunity for short-term profit. If they order replacement water and a truck brings them the new shipment and has to drive through blocked roads where the driver had to get out and remove trees from the road, THEN I can see jacking the price up (because the drive is going to require more time and effort to get the goods to market. Otherwise, the stuff they are selling has already been invoiced.
     
  13. arminius

    arminius Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter ++

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    This is very true, but beside the point. The point being can gov mandate someone what to charge for personal property. It's that simple. Those who purposely overcharge in emergency situations are obviously cretins, and are to be avoided if at all possible. If he's a local business man people will take note and remember.
     
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  14. D-FENZ

    D-FENZ Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter ++

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    Sure there is pure dickheadsmanship involved. Lots of stupidity too. But how do you legislate that? Do you want the preps or not? Meanwhile they are still there manning the store with the goods while everyone else is scrambling to get out of Dodge.

    And what is it with everyone's faucets with almost unlimited and virtually free potable water? Don't they work?
     
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  15. Thecrensh

    Thecrensh Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    i think it's more an issue of containers for the potable water. Most people probably don't have containers to hold all that water...and they may/may not want to risk filling their tub with water only to have to evacuate their house and leave it all behind. It's all about preparations...though they should have made some before hurricane season.
     
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  16. edsl48

    edsl48 Silver Member Silver Miner

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    I see no need why the people that sat on facebook, I phones, texting devices and other social media that did not go out and prepare for the situation should be bailed out. One might even opine that the "thinning of the heard" via a natural selection process of the generalized dumbos just might be in order for humanity's overall survival.
    Think about it
     
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  17. hammerhead

    hammerhead Not just a screen name Gold Chaser

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    What I have learnt from following this forum is that a person needs to prepare for life and not to fall for the we need the .gov or expect anybody to provide for us. Don't care if it is a disaster situation or not. Sometimes SHTF. Given that as my reason to say charge what you want and if people will pay it, it is of no concern to the the ruling elite.
     
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  18. Mujahideen

    Mujahideen Black Member Midas Member

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    I believe society will take care of mostly all the problems.

    If you charge $1000 for a bottle of water someone might shoot you or people will remember that when times are not so tough.

    The government is supposed to protect our rights, not legislate morality.
     
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  19. anywoundedduck

    anywoundedduck Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Why, there are free women all over the place, as long as your willing to go along with her agenda. If not, you will end up in divorce court, and you will find the free woman very costly indeed.
     
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  20. spinalcracker

    spinalcracker On a mail train. Silver Miner Site Supporter

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    Maybe you just need to change jobs?..appliance business comes to mind.

     
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  21. Garyw

    Garyw The Military gave me Defoliant Exposure Silver Miner

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    When a vendor sells a case of water for $100 I have the option to buy it or pass on it. If they make the same offer to someone else I do not know I think wow that sucks but go on about what I was doing and could care less. (bottom Line if it happens to me I am pissed) That my friends is human nature.
     
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  22. michael59

    michael59 heads up-butts down Site Supporter ++ Platinum Bling

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    well sad to say but if you registered your bizie-ness with the corporation then they can tell you what to do. It's why there is a war on drugs, not drug dealers; drugs.

    But I still do not believe one should be charged for price gouging. I mean darn...if there wasn't price gouging we would not have "Road Warrior."
     
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  23. Ensoniq

    Ensoniq Midas Member Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    I find it disgusting that a $20 cost (my estimate) epipen can get sold for $700. Outside the reach of uninsured who have kids with critical allergies

    Still, I'd rather have the epipen exist as opposed to it never being developed.

    Or have the next best thing since the epipen fail to come to fruition because the inventor decides it's not worth his time.

    On another note, if the government wants inexpensive water during a Huricane, maybe the government should hire some trucks, buy some water, and head south.
     
  24. Rollie Free

    Rollie Free Midas Member Midas Member

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    No offense Gold hedge but in my opinion almost all law is legislating morality.

    My father always told us life should be balanced. I believe that but it's hard to come by sometimes.

    Sometimes society is better served by laws although intrusive. You just need to keep it to safe levels.
     
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  25. Thecrensh

    Thecrensh Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    I'm libertarian-leaning...but I also know that without SOME government regulations, you'd have corporations dumping mercury and chlorine into children's playgrounds in order to maximize profit. We can't go true libertarian...but we can't go total government either. It's a balance...hopefully leaning more the side of less government and more personal responsibility.
     
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  26. Rollie Free

    Rollie Free Midas Member Midas Member

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    Agreed Crensh,

    I don't believe a libertarian society has ever or could ever exist. Human nature precludes it. Even if one could be formulated and put into existence it would immediately be sucked dry by power vacuums.
    What is possible is a society that values libertarian ideals. But even that would require a tremendous amount of buy in. The populace would need to be somewhat highly educated and I don't mean the leftie, liberal, loony type we have today.

    But so many roadblocks to that ideal, I don't know how you get there. No one wants a peaceful balance, not anymore. They want their $÷@÷!@$ way to the point of jailing or harming the opposition. We've really lost our way.
     
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  27. TAEZZAR

    TAEZZAR LADY JUSTICE ISNT BLIND, SHES JUST AFRAID TO WATCH Midas Member Site Supporter

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    “A republic, if you can keep it.” (Benjamin Franklin) ...
     
  28. Garyw

    Garyw The Military gave me Defoliant Exposure Silver Miner

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    I do understand both sides however this country was formed by people that left Europe to get away from socialism and formed an economy that right or wrong and no matter which side of the arguement you are on You have the choice to purchase the product or turn it down. Socialism is proven not to work over and over. We were not designed by God to look alike or have the same views. If the seller cannot sell his items he will be forced to barter to get what he needs himself. That is one part of Libratarianism I do agree with. Like it or not Free market system does work.
     
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  29. TAEZZAR

    TAEZZAR LADY JUSTICE ISNT BLIND, SHES JUST AFRAID TO WATCH Midas Member Site Supporter

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    These people chose to live in hurricane prone area's because they like the otherwise peaceful times there & are obviously willing to take a chance.
    Let them pay for their pleasures !
     
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  30. tom baxter

    tom baxter back from 2004

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    If you pay for bulk water in bottles you deserve to get ripped off
    If you don't have a reserve of gas on hand or keep your tank full at least, you deserve to get ripped off.
    They say you can "Grow" wealth, but that's not true unless you're on a farm. In our society wealth only comes to you by coming out of someone else's pocket, and since I like to be wealthy, I have no problem with idiots get ripped off. better them than me.
     
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  31. keef

    keef Пальто Crude Platinum Bling

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    The only thing you own is YOUR TIME, gentleman. Hope u use it 'wisely'. :godfather {note to mod? maybe we need an updated 'wiseguy' icon. }

    [​IMG] {So, I amuse you????} I'm here to AMUSE YOU?

    yeah,, yeah,, we know how to amuse.:funky:

    Let's get serious gentleman. If YOU DONT HOLD IT?? Well, u know the routine by now.....

    RIP PONCE. We never forget a fallen brother. NEVER ever not gonna happen on my watch.

    f u bb
     
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  32. TAEZZAR

    TAEZZAR LADY JUSTICE ISNT BLIND, SHES JUST AFRAID TO WATCH Midas Member Site Supporter

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    YUP, we ALL have the same 24 hours in a day.
    It is how we choose to use them, that makes the difference !
     
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  33. nickndfl

    nickndfl Midas Member Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    In times of emergency it is a crime in Florida. It should be because distribution can be sporadic and it's not a time for unscrupulous windfall profits. There are still significant markups sometimes, but not $40 for a $5 case of water.

    In fact, I got back to town on Thursday and noted in another thread that Wawa ran out of regular gas and dropped the price of their ethanol free to regular. I always go to Wawa throughout the state and that just reinforced my loyalty.
     
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  34. mayhem

    mayhem Silver Member Silver Miner Site Supporter

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    Let me tell ya a story. Back in 1969 my BIL and sons Godfather, went into the service station business. We leased the stations, there were two and both became successful. My son own's them now plus a small used car business, a company that specializes in auto racing motors, and tuning.

    Any way back on topic. When Shell ever decided to raise/lower the price the phone would ring and the area rep would tell you to stick the tanks. You suddenly paid more on the gas you already paid for that was in the ground. Granted there are way more independents now days, but I would assume the big oil company's still use this practice.

    It is more complicated than the silple example today, but you get the jist.
     
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  35. gringott

    gringott Killed then Resurrected Midas Member Site Supporter

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    I don't doubt your story. Poor business practice IMHO. I'm not privy to what goes on, but I watch as almost all the stations jacked up the price about the same amount at the same time, long before the weather could have any impact at all on local prices. I have taken note of those companies that did not go with the flow.
     
  36. Ensoniq

    Ensoniq Midas Member Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    Who decides how much mark up is too much? If it's not the buyer/seller and it is a third party, regardless of the moral relativism argument, then property isn't private

    In my view "C" doesn't get to involve himself in the business that "A" & "B" are contemplating

    This doesn't mean that C can't call A an asshole or organize a boycott against him. He just can use the criminal justice system to incarcerate him

    Just my opinion and best wishes to all our members in the storm's path.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2017
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  37. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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    Price gouging and the generous free market


    -- Published: Sunday, 10 September 2017

    By George Smith

    Gary North published members-only articles recently (here and here) discussing how Hurricane Harvey has affected economic life in Houston. He makes an important point about prices and customers that I have not seen elsewhere.

    Other things equal we know scarcity or high demand will drive prices higher. Sellers of diamonds are rarely accused of price gouging but when prices for everyday commodities take a big leap in a crisis almost everyone calls it price gouging. It’s an easy call: People are in desperate need of critical commodities, while certain suppliers are charging scalper prices. Conclusion: The suppliers are craven profiteers.

    Wikipedia defines price gouging as “a pejorative term referring to when a seller spikes the prices of goods, services or commodities to a level much higher than is considered reasonable or fair, and is considered exploitative, potentially to an unethical extent.” Merriam-Webster says price gouging is “charging customers too much money.” How much is “too much”? What is “reasonable or fair”?

    People don’t know, exactly, but they pass laws against it anyway. The fine for gouging a senior citizen in Texas is $250,000; gouging someone younger is only $20,000. Amazon has algorithms that suspend the accounts of sellers charging high prices relative to other sellers. During Harvey’s onslaught in Houston, a photo on gritpost showed a Best Buy store posting $42.96 for a case of bottled water; Best Buy later issued an apology on behalf of the store.

    By the way, do we ever get apologies from government?

    As they do during every emergency, free-market commentators have rushed to the scene to correct the public’s misunderstanding about price gouging. Though their arguments are available to the public, the public never reads them. Later, during the rebuilding, they’ll correct similar fallacies that sees economic windfalls in broken windows. Once again the public remains pristine in its ignorance.

    Customer Loyalty

    Rather than make the case for gouging, North took a different approach.

    When we go to a supermarket, we do not argue over price. Everything is programmed into a computer, and it is all run by barcodes. When a hurricane comes, a supermarket is not in a position to raise prices. In any case, a supermarket would not raise prices. It would make great profits for one day, and then it would lose customers on a permanent basis on the day after the hurricane blows through and blows out. People remember being gouged. . . .State governments have laws against gouging. These laws are irrelevant. A seller knows not to gouge. He does not want to appear to be a bad guy. He knows that he will lose customers after the crisis. So, he sells at what the price was the day before the hurricane. He thinks long-term. He doesn't want to alienate people.In rare cases, a seller may put up a sign: only one to a customer. Customers are generally in favor of this policy. . . .Where there is no brand loyalty, you will see high prices immediately prior to a hurricane. This takes place, for example, in gasoline sales. There is no brand loyalty any longer for gasoline. . . They compete exclusively in terms of price. So, the day before the hurricane, some of them will raise prices unless there is a state law against it. They won't alienate long-term customers because they don't have any.

    So what might a supermarket do during a crisis to keep its customers happy?

    H-E-B is the largest grocer in Texas. Shortly after Harvey “slammed into Texas as a Category 4 storm,” it managed to open 60 of its 83 stores in Houston.

    According to Scott McClelland, president of the chain’s Houston division, one of the stores had only five employees — “one stationed at the door as crowd control and four working the registers, trying to get people out as quickly as possible.”

    A whirlwind of improvised and exhausting activity went on behind the scenes to maintain some semblance of normality. What should the distribution centers ship immediately after a storm hits? Bread and water. A little later milk, bread, and water. Then canned meat. And batteries and tuna.

    Local employees were fighting the hurricane, so where do you get people to run the stores? From nearby cities not affected by the storm. “They hopped into cars and they just drove to Houston. They said, we're here to help.” And they helped for 18 hours a day then slept at someone’s house.

    H-E-B called suppliers and told them to ship toilet paper directly to the stores and bypass the warehouses. They called Frito-Lay and told them to ship only their bestsellers. H-E-B normally produces 50 varieties of bread; during the storm they cut it to three: white, wheat, and hotdog buns. They did this and much more while working on relief efforts. They sent mobile kitchens into the hurricane area to feed first responders and evacuees.

    This is how capitalism works, North tells us.

    Profits come from efficient service of customers. The hardest sale to get is the first one. The money is made through repeat sales.
    Repeat sales will continue long after Houston dries out. Loyalty will run the gamut from customers, to employees, to employer, to suppliers.

    The owners of the store have established their reputation. Having a good reputation is basic to establishing the long-term profitability of any enterprise. . . .This is how the free market works when it works profitably. There are business people who do not understand fundamental principles, but they are rarely rich and successful. They go for the short-term profit, and they do not survive in the long term.Reputation is crucial. Short-term profits are not. Charging people 30% or 40% more because of a hurricane is an unwise policy for a store that expects to be in business a week after the hurricane. This is not just theory. This is economic reality. The senior managers in this company understood how the free market works. They took advantage of an opportunity. They did not take advantage of customers. They will wind up with lots more opportunities and lots more customers.

    Response to Irma

    As Hurricane Irma bears down on Florida and the southeast at the time of this writing, we’re seeing companies as well as private Americans providing disaster relief for the millions of evacuees.

    Comcast has opened “137,000 Xfinity WiFi hot spots free of charge to Florida residents, including non-Xfinity customers. . . . Non-customers will be able to renew their complimentary sessions every two hours through Sept. 15.”

    U-Haul is offering “30 days of free self-storage and U-Box container usage to residents who stand to be impacted by” Irma. Check the link for more details.

    Airbnb is encouraging hosts to open their homes free to evacuees and is waiving the normal booking fees.

    The major airlines capped prices for evacuees. JetBlue is increasing the number of flights out of affected cities and is “waiving cancellation and change fees for existing reservations.”

    Finally, the nonprofit SPCA “is offering veterinary care and basic pet supplies at no cost” to evacuees with pets who are are in New Orleans.

    http://barbarous-relic.blogspot.com/

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  38. Thecrensh

    Thecrensh Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    In 1989, I was stationed in Dam Neck, VA. The morning AFTER the Exxon Valdez ran aground, the price of gas at the Exxon station at the end of Dam Neck road was $0.10 higher a gallon. This was in 1988 so that was significant...approximately $.78 to $.88 overnight. Over 10% jump for gas that had already been purchased.
     
  39. keef

    keef Пальто Crude Platinum Bling

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    Man, I hate it when someone throws my own advice back in me face.

    Now I feel guilty for hangin around a keyboard when it is absolutely beautiful outside and I can still climb on my mule to Shambala.


    fuggggg. later mule.
     
  40. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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    Happiest place on earth? Disney accused of price-gouging water and food for residents stuck at their hotels while the park is closed
    • Park was closed for fifth time in its history to prepare for hurricane this weekend
    • Jennifer Bruns from Illinois lashed out at owners of Walt Disney World in Florida
    • She said drinks prices for people stranded by Hurricane Irma were exploitative


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4872878/Disney-price-gouges-food-people-trapped-hurricane.html#ixzz4sQMgX3a2
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