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Don’t fight infections. Learn to live with them

Discussion in 'Alt Medicine/Coll Silver' started by Bottom Feeder, Oct 20, 2017.



  1. Bottom Feeder

    Bottom Feeder Hypophthalmichthys molitrix Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    As her father lay dying of sepsis, Janelle Ayres spent nine agonizing days at his bedside. When he didn’t beat the virulent bloodstream infection, she grieved. Janelle Ayres.jpg
    Janelle Ayres

    She knew there had to be a better way to help patients like her dad. Scientists have focused for decades on how the immune system battles pathogens. Ayres believes other elements of our physiology are at least as important — so she’s hunting for the beneficial bacteria that seem to help some patients maintain a healthy appetite and repair damaged tissue even during bouts of serious disease.

    Her approach, in a nutshell: Stop worrying so much about fighting infections. Instead, help the body tolerate them.

    And no, she’s not spouting some New Age California mumbo jumbo about letting the body heal itself. An associate professor at the Salk Institute in the heart of San Diego’s booming biotech beach, Ayres is harnessing all manner of high-tech tools from the fields of microbiomics, genetics, and immunology — and looking to a menagerie of animals — to sort out why some individuals tolerate infection so much better than others.

    She infected more than 10,000 flies, carrying various genetic mutations, with listeria. “I injured my hand because I had to inject so many flies,” she recalled.

    While many immunologists would look for very specific immune responses, Ayres asked a simpler, but perhaps more important, question: Which flies survived?

    By comparing the mutants that died quickly against the survivors, she found specific sets of genes that played roles in preventing, curbing, and even repairing damage from the listeria infection — regardless of the level of bacteria in the flies’ bodies.

    Ayres described the response of the surviving flies as tolerance. They went on to propose that the immune response to pathogens wasn’t the whole story, and that tolerance — a body’s ability to minimize damage while infected — may play a key role as well.

    “No one says, ‘Why can’t we just live together?’” That’s just what Ayres is asking in her lab.

    More than 700,000 deaths each year worldwide are attributed to infections that our current roster of drugs cannot beat back. The World Health Organization recently released a “most wanted” list of the world’s most dangerous superbugs.

    The public health response, so far, has been to clamor for newer and more effective antibiotics. A public-private partnership in the US and UK, for instance, is investing tens of millions over the next three years in startups working on new drugs.All Ayres can do is sigh.

    She understands bacteria deeply. She respects them and even loves them. And she knows they will always win.

    Society needs drugs that don’t target bacteria, which can so quickly evolve to evade our best medicines, she argues.

    Instead, she thinks we can harness those bacteria — even the ones normally classified as pathogens — to make new drugs that save lives by targeting an infected person’s tissues and organs. That would be an entirely new class of therapeutics, which could lessen our dependence on antibiotics and help save lives in cases, like her father’s, where antibiotics fail.

    https://www.statnews.com/2017/05/18/superbug-new-model-infection/
    More details (if you're so inclined) at site.

    BF
     
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  2. TAEZZAR

    TAEZZAR LADY JUSTICE ISNT BLIND, SHES JUST AFRAID TO WATCH Midas Member Site Supporter

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    I see it even more simple.
    Our lives are a product of three features.
    1. Heredity
    2. Life style
    3. Luck

    We can only control one of these (you figure it out LOL).
    Mrs. T & I try to live a healthy life style & it is working well for us.
    Sure we get sick, but not serious sick.
     
  3. Goldhedge

    Goldhedge Moderator Site Mgr Site Supporter

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    Using drugs to defeat the natural cycle of things dilutes the gene pool.

    Weaker and weaker humans wading through humanity.

    Eventually, we'll all be taken out by some superbug... everyone except those who are predisposed to living through it.

    They'll repopulate the Earth.
     
  4. Thecrensh

    Thecrensh Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    This makes me think of the man who founded the old Miami serpentarium. He used to give himself daily injections of cobra venom and eventually became tolerant of the bites. I think he either then used his blood plasma for antivenin or did this so he could work more safely with the snakes.

    Edit: Bill Haast. Interesting story...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Haast
     
  5. Goldhedge

    Goldhedge Moderator Site Mgr Site Supporter

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    And it is called 'antivenin' not antivenom as everyone says.
     
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  6. the_shootist

    the_shootist The war is here on our doorstep! Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    Spelling nazi!
    :lashing:
     
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  7. Thecrensh

    Thecrensh Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    That's what I put? Now I'm confused?
     
  8. andial

    andial Sir Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    Agree.
     
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  9. Son of Gloin

    Son of Gloin Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter ++

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    I worked up a tolerance to iocaine powder over a period of years, just in case I ever got into a battle of wits with a Sicilian kidnapper.
     
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  10. southfork

    southfork Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    Odd most of the viruses and diseases around didnt seem to exist until .gov started experimenting with other ones.
     
  11. Bottom Feeder

    Bottom Feeder Hypophthalmichthys molitrix Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    GH is just pointing it out for us 'un-educated'. Like me, I didn't know it was called 'antivenin' it was always 'anti-venom' to me.
    Yer right on there, crensh.
    :oriental:

    BF
     
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  12. Cigarlover

    Cigarlover Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    I try to stay away from people. Seems to keep me healthy most of the time, especially in the winter months. Even shopping I tend to shop at off hours. Late at night the local kroger is open until 1 am. It's not uncommon for me to shop at 11.

    No Dr's for me for many years so no anti biotics messing up the gut bacteria. The gut is where health begins. Remember that old saying, you are what you eat?
    I'm not perfect but try to eat better all the time and so far that seems to be working out fine for me.
     
  13. southfork

    southfork Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    So riddle me this, winter is the season when colds and flus are supposedly spread, but hospitals are freezing cold all the time, why?
     
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  14. Zed

    Zed Size doesn't count! Midas Member

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    Kefir, Kombucha.... Grow your own bacteria and swallow it daily. Combine that with fasting for a week or more 4 times a year and you will not believe how strong your immune system becomes. Daily intermittent fasting is also a good habit to get into. Your gut can and will repair itself, which will greatly improve your immunity, but it doesn't happen while you are continuously eating. Also throw all refined carbohydrate out of your diet! It all stems from the lousy modern diet degrading our gut biome.
     
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  15. Son of Gloin

    Son of Gloin Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter ++

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    That's exactly true. Your physical and mental health all begin in a healthy gut. Sounds crazy, but there is a lot to suggest autism, ADD, OCD, depression, maybe even schizophrenia and altzheimers are related to gut health. Many hormones are made in the gut and if you're a mess in there, the hormones don't get made and all kind of mayhem ensues. Not to mention food will not digest properly and gut flora becomes way imbalanced. I can't even name all the physical ailments that are related to poor gut health. Read up on it.
     
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  16. Son of Gloin

    Son of Gloin Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter ++

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    I'm making kombucha tea and sauerkraut on a regular basis. They're both so easy to make and taste good. I tried homemade pickles, but I put too much garlic in with them and I ruined the batch. I'll do better on them next time.
     
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  17. Zed

    Zed Size doesn't count! Midas Member

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    I'm convinced it's true. While a lot of these bacteria don't directly cause disease when they die they leave a toxic residue. When they die in sufficient quantity you have enough toxin to create a whole range of neurological and mental conditions. The life cycle of the bacteria within your body can generate toxic flushes on a routine basis and they can produce anything from ADD to depression. We have 9 microorganisms for everyone human body cell, we are 10% human so it stands to reason that our health is 90% to do with this micro-organism biome. Get your bugs right, feed and encourage the right one's, and you've got your health largely sorted. IMO it's all about the bugs people!
     
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  18. Zed

    Zed Size doesn't count! Midas Member

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    I tried making sauerkraut but I didn't like the result, but you're on the right path! Ferment everything!
     
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  19. Thecrensh

    Thecrensh Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    I think it's more a factor of shorter days (less UV light) allowing for bacteria/viruses to grow better. UV light kills germs.
     
  20. Zed

    Zed Size doesn't count! Midas Member

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    In winter people tend to congregate indoors more, they spend more time closer to each other and the opportunity to spread bugs is greater. It's not the cold weather directly it's just that we're all on top of each other in enclosed space far more often! Disease loves the opportunity to spread this is why school are more a disease exchange program than an educational facility! In summer we spend more time outside and the resulting reduced opportunity for disease to spread massively reduces the odds that you are going to catch anything.

    When I use to work in an office it didn't seem to make much difference what the season was, too many people in too small a space with air conditioning made for a constant round of disease.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2017
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  21. Cigarlover

    Cigarlover Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    I fast everyday for 18-20 hrs. All of my meals are consumed in a very short period of time. I'm on a ketogenic diet so no hunger or cravings. There's been days where I just forgot to eat until very late at night and then just have some water and go to bed. No big deal and the next day the scale looks good too. :).

    Refined carbs and sugar should be against the law IMO. Get rid of them and energy levels spike as well as mental clarity.
    I love pizza and pasta but will enjoy them even more on a rare special occasion instead of a daily allowance of them. :).
     
  22. TAEZZAR

    TAEZZAR LADY JUSTICE ISNT BLIND, SHES JUST AFRAID TO WATCH Midas Member Site Supporter

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    It goes like this:

    You are what you eat,
    Said a wise old man.
    Yee gawds,
    If that's true,
    I'm a garbage can !!!
     
  23. Goldhedge

    Goldhedge Moderator Site Mgr Site Supporter

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    You ARE correct. It is antivenin...

    As for infections, I always let my body take care of cuts and scratches that get infected - at least for a few days.
    Then I pull out Neosporin and help it a bit.
     
  24. Zed

    Zed Size doesn't count! Midas Member

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    It works doesn't it! I'm not so sure about keto long term but IMO as you get your gut straight you can be less strict about that, I'm more in the 'don't worry about vege carbs' camp now.... save maybe the high GI ones like baked sweet potato and white potato. I have my off plan weeks and while it is nice to have a pizza etc I end up feeling like crap! I normally fast for around 14 days after, depending on weight and how evil my eating was. Not that I do it often, twice a year around holidays, xmas etc.
     
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  25. Goldhedge

    Goldhedge Moderator Site Mgr Site Supporter

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    I have to eat regularly. For me it's easy to forget to eat. My blood sugar goes in the tank and me along with it.

    If I eat a piece of candy, it fools me into thinking I'm ok, until it wears off and then I really drop like a rock.

    If I do drop, once I eat, it takes me over an hour to come back up. It's like I'm under water. My thinking is impaired.

    I have learned to listen to my body. EAT!

    I don't eat junk food as a rule.
     
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  26. Someone_else

    Someone_else Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    For me, any cut or scratch gets a coating of Lugol's iodine. It kills germs, but since it does not have alcohol, it does not hurt cells (by dehydration). Germs just can't build a resistance to iodine.
     
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  27. Cigarlover

    Cigarlover Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    It works great. My longest fast is only 3 days. I'm only on week 3 of it right now.. I did it last year for several months and dropped over 40 lbs pretty easy. 3-4 lbs a week is very realistic. The first week is a lot more then the 2nd week is a little less. For example
    for me week 1 was 8 lbs weight loss and week 2 was only 5. This week looks like 4 will be the magic number.
    Once I am going on this strong I don't eat on Saturdays and will probably try to incorporate a 3 day fast every month.
    I'll go longer if I ever run into any major health issues.
    I've also noticed with animals that if they are sick they don't eat. Just drink water. They seem to have this natural ability to heal themselves. Humans aren't any different.

    What I di see is man made disease or conditions that the body cant do anything about, like radiation sickness. The US food industry is constantly trying to make things taste better to create this mini addiction, like sweets and sugar, carbs and all the processed foods that basically leave you hungry. They have figured out how to sell you the least healthy food and make it so addicting you keep wanting more. You can eat a boatload of it and still feel hungry even though your stomach is ready to explode.
    In contrast a few days on a keto diet and you have no cravings for anything. However after 4 months of it I hit the Keto crash. From what I read you could overcome this by loading up on carbs for a weekend and then right back on Keto. I loaded up on carbs for a weekend and I was hooked right back on crap food.
    Anyway, back on keto now and once i hit my weight loss goal or close to it I will transition over to a mostly vegan diet with an occasional cheeseburger. :).
     
  28. Zed

    Zed Size doesn't count! Midas Member

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    Frankly you sound prediabetic, low carb, keto and fasting will fix it. Go to YouTube look up Dr Jason Fung and listen to him talk about fasting and diabetes. There's a high probability you're insulin resistant. Eric Berg is another good YouTube source for information surrounding the subject.
     
  29. Zed

    Zed Size doesn't count! Midas Member

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    Maximum I've done is 21 days, the first 4/5 days is water and food loss as your body changes to ketones as an energy source, you tend to put most of that weight back on when you stop fasting. When your body is running on ketones you retain a lot less water, when you raise your glucose levels again your water levels rise again. The weight loss Beyond the 4th to 5th day is pure fat burn. It's quite normal to burn a pound or 450 g a day to keep your body going. You certainly don't lose muscle and your metabolism actually speeds up. Thought processes and activity are often clearer and better while in fasted state. I find the first four days the hardest to get through then it's easy, basically I go until I get hungry again. You don't tend to get hungry again until you've run your fat stores right down. The trick is running insulin right out of your system then the need to eat falls right away, you must run your blood sugars, liver sugar and muscle glucose right down. Many people consider ketones as a superior fuel to glucose to run your body on.

    Essentially your body is a two way system, it is designed to store energy in the form of fat and it is designed to use that fat as energy when required. Modern man jams that system into a one-way mode by never missing out on food, we are always in storage mode! That has consequences, obesity and diabetes are chief among them! The key hormone here is insulin, it stores fat, it drives hunger, it suppresses human growth hormone and if you never do without food you develop a resistance to it which causes other issues.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2017
  30. Juristic Person

    Juristic Person They drew first blood Platinum Bling

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    People tend to gather inside in close quarters together for longer hours which allows virus to spread more easily. There is also less sunlight exposure in the winter months which means a great vitamin D deficiency for most people.

    Getting sick is not caused by cold temperature exposure....actually the opposite is true. Prolonged cold exposure actually boosts your immune system.
     
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  31. Son of Gloin

    Son of Gloin Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter ++

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    Dammit, Zed! You have me jazzed up to do some serious fasting, now. I'm on a one meal a day plan, right now and I've got to say that it's pretty easy. I tried a multiday fast, a few weeks ago, but ended up cutting it short at about 44 hours. I can't really say why, except maybe I just felt weird not eating at all. I think it was entirely a mental thing.

    Anyway, I certainly have the fat stores to do a long term fast. I'm diabetic, but have managed to get my blood sugar down under 200, but that's hardly good enough. And my blood pressure is better, but not optimal, yet. I would really, really like to get to a place where I don't need meds anymore, too. Maybe I just need to buckle down and get into serious, long term fasting to get all this stuff under control.
     
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  32. Zed

    Zed Size doesn't count! Midas Member

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    At 44 hours you were just getting into the hardest section. Day 1 and 2 aren't too bad, day 3 it's a little harder and day 4 is probably the hardest. Once you're past that you have no more than a slight hunger and usually that's more thirst than hunger so if you keep drinking water there's no problem at all. If you've not run on ketones before you might run into the keto flu. Normally that's not too hard to get past with the right supplements personally I need vitamin B5. YouTube has heaps of info about keto flu and strategies to help you out with it. If you've done keto diet and you are intermittent fasting then I wouldn't think you'd have an issue with this at all. I hear of people doing 3 4 5 day fasts all the time and then stopping. They don't seem to realise that they've done all the hard work at 5 days and that really they should just keep going until their body tells them they really, really need food again. Estimate the number of pounds you could lose, add 5 and that's the approximate number of days you can most probably easily do. One guy did a 365 day fast with no ill effect.

    Dr Jason Fung, the guy on YouTube, routinely cures type 1 diabetes. Within one or two weeks of fasting and then intermittent fasting with the right diet he has them off insulin. So long as they don't go back to the diet that lead to the problem in the first place they tend to stay well. He has a good video explaining why exogenous insulin is a part of the diabetic problem and not the cure.

    I was almost certainly pre-diabetic but now I'm absolutely fine. All I can say is this stuff works, I've lost a heap of weight, I'm a lot fitter, I eat in a 6 hour window everyday (intermittent fasting) and I have energy all through the day and I'm not on the blood sugar roller coaster that I used to be on! I can't say enough about the revelation that keto low carb and fasting has been over the last couple of years! Our standard dietary advice is pretty stuffed up. JMO

    The thing I love is that for the first time in my life I am in complete control of my weight. I now have a maximum 30 inch waist and often I'm 28 inches, what's more if that strays I just fast and I get right back there again. On top of that everytime I fast the weight seems to stay off more easily. I feel great doing it, it is the cheapest diet under the sun with the least work, you simply do nothing! It's nowhere near as hard as calorie restriction diets that slow your metabolism and do damage! Simple, elegant, effective and good for you, it's the type of solution I just love!
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2017
  33. Zed

    Zed Size doesn't count! Midas Member

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    Oh yeah I haven't completely given up chocolate or wine either! I was determined not to be completely uncivilised about this! As one Gimmer said it's feast then famine! Not that I don't eat mostly very healthily, just that I don't completely deprive myself either.
     
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  34. ErrosionOfAccord

    ErrosionOfAccord #1 Global Warmer Gold Chaser Site Supporter ++

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    The OR's are exceptionally cold too. It's to inhibit germ growth. They are cold during the summer too you just don't notice it as much.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2017
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  35. Thecrensh

    Thecrensh Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    I did a lot of fasting several years ago; the longest I did was 7 days. You're spot on; after day 3 it gets easier. I actually ran 3 miles on day 4 of a fast without much problem.
     
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  36. Goldhedge

    Goldhedge Moderator Site Mgr Site Supporter

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    I'll check it out. I don't need to lose weight though. 160lbs 5' 8.75" or 174.625cm. I'm in great shape.
     
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  37. Zed

    Zed Size doesn't count! Midas Member

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    Maybe then it's just insulin resistance? You are near the upper end of the normal BMI range, which I used to think meant everybody was overweight because getting within that normal range seemed impossible. Now I understand that I was just carrying a hell of a lot more fat weight than I realised! Even within that normal range it all depends on how much muscle you're carrying and how much fat, there still may be room for fasting. My BMI is now around the 23 level and I can still easily do two week fast. I was on that blood sugar roller coaster for quite a while, I know how that feels. All I can tell you is that doesn't happen now and the only thing I've changed is this style of eating and fasting thing.

    You are to be congratulated though it's a small percentage of the population that is under that 24.9 BMI level!
     
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  38. Zed

    Zed Size doesn't count! Midas Member

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    I found in my first fast that light exercise helped improve my energy levels, even though I never really felt like doing it. Now I can do moderate to heavy exercise while fasting without too much effort. Something has definitely changed in my body chemistry?! They say you need to, for want of a better way of putting it, build the infrastructure to utilise fat as a fuel. Once that's done it becomes easier to burn fat for energy on a routine basis. I forget what I learnt it involves hormones and stuff!
     
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  39. Zed

    Zed Size doesn't count! Midas Member

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    A teaser from Dr Jason Fung...

     
  40. Zed

    Zed Size doesn't count! Midas Member

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    This is kinda covers my concern about Keto. In the short to mid term I think it's a great way to help control weight and reduce fat to healthy levels but as a long term eating plan goes I think it's far too extreme.



    Eric Berg on YouTube covers it well in my opinion, basically he says eat Keto but don't count the carbs in veggies. I know that's not Keto but it's not quite low carb either, is more to do with controlling where you're getting the complex carbs you are getting. Keto banishes virtually all carbs and low carb is not that discriminate about where the carbs you do get come from. Berg more about eating complex nutrient dense carbohydrates, not worrying about fat levels but going for better fats and not over doing the protein. Once you hit your ideal weight I think this is probably the best way to go, intuitively staying away from the extremes makes sense to me at least for the longer term. Short-term these things are tools to help us get to our goals.
     
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