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'Fake' Apollo Moon Landing

Discussion in 'Topical Discussions (In Depth)' started by Scorpio, Nov 19, 2017.



  1. solarion

    solarion Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    The US rocket program was also hit or miss early on.



    One of the things that casts doubt upon the moon landings is, for me at least, that prior to Apollo, the Soviets appeared to be well ahead in rocket technology. I mean the first space junk wasn't American made and the first humans in space weren't Americans. I believe technically the first man made object in space was officially made by German NAZIs(vengeance 2). NAZIs that were promptly imported to the US space program...pre-NASA. Obviously your standard issue Amerikan sheeple remain blissfully unaware of nearly all of these facts.

    Perhaps the alien technology recovered at Roswell finally paid dividends or the US project paperclip NAZIs at NASA finally got their heads out of their asses and built a real rocket(saturn v) and we really did make it to the moon, but I tend to doubt it, particularly when some jaggov at NASA tells me they accidentally erased the footage...like a sitcom re-run.
     
  2. DodgebyDave

    DodgebyDave Metal Messiah Midas Member

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    Yep, we tore shit up. Made some tremendous mistakes. Blew up shit. AS you stated......appeared to be in the lead.

    Sputnik was a glorified beep machine. The public and politicians were having cows, the rocket scientists at North American Rockwell and Rocketdyne knew better

    Now then you can say it's splitting hairs but our X-15 program was routinely flying into and back from LEO YEARS before the Soviets
     
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  3. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Agreed. Rocket science has a steep learning curve it does seem.

    Appearances can be deceiving. Especially when dealing with a nation whose failures were kept secret, while ours were on full public display for the World to sometimes see blow up.

    No doubt op paper clip went a long way. It was Von Braun's idea to build a huge rocket that would go directly to the Moon. It ended up being a compromise that went with a kinda big rocket combined with orbital transfers.
    That's the idea put forth in the fore-word of the article @#48Fan posted. Where Von Braun is quoted as saying the "only" way to go is with multiple giant rockets at the same time.
    The reason that quote is included in the article is to plant a seed in the readers mind that that is the only way it could be done.
    ...but that is simply not so. It is in fact one way it could be done, but not the only way it could be done.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2017
  4. DodgebyDave

    DodgebyDave Metal Messiah Midas Member

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    The total lack of high speed research projects are hurting the soviets and many other programs to this day
     
  5. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Good reading here that highlights some of the thinking of the day and what points were made in order to justify going with the space shuttle and ditching the old way.

    The Statement by President Nixon, 5 January 1972.

    I have decided today that the United States should proceed at once with the development of an entirely new type of space transportation system designed to help transform the space frontier of the 1970's into familiar territory, easily accessible for human endeavor in the 1980's and '90's.

    This system will center on a space vehicle that can shuttle repeatedly from Earth to orbit and back. It will revolutionize transportation into near space, by routinizing it. It will take the astronomical costs out of astronautics. In short, it will go a long way toward delivering the rich benefits of practical space utilization and the valuable spinoffs from space efforts into the daily lives of Americans and all people.

    The new year 1972 is a year of conclusion for America's current series of manned flights to the Moon. Much is expected from the two remaining Apollo missions - in fact, their scientific results should exceed the return from all the earlier flights together. Thus they will place a fitting capstone on this vastly successful undertaking. But they also bring us to an important decision point - a point of assessing what our space horizons are as Apollo ends, and of determining where we go from here.

    In the scientific arena, the past decade of experience has taught us that spacecraft are an irreplaceable tool for learning about our near-Earth space environment, the Moon, and the planets, besides being an important aid to our studies of the Sun and stars. In utilizing space to meet needs on Earth, we have seen the tremendous potential of satellites for international communications and world-wide weather forecasting. We are gaining the capability to use satellites as tools in global monitoring and management of nature resources, in agricultural applications, and in pollution control. We can foresee their use in guiding airliners across the oceans and in bringing TV education to wide areas of the world.

    However, all these possibilities, and countless others with direct and dramatic bearing on human betterment, can never be more than fractionally realized so long as every single trip from Earth to orbit remains a matter of special effort and staggering expense. This is why commitment to the Space Shuttle program is the right step for America to take, in moving out from our present beach-head in the sky to achieve a real working presence in space - because the Space Shuttle will give us routine access to space by sharply reducing costs in dollars and preparation time.

    The new system will differ radically from all existing booster systems, in that most of this new system will be recovered and used again and again - up to 100 times. The resulting economies may bring operating costs down as low as one-tenth of those present launch vehicles.

    The resulting changes in modes of flight and re-entry will make the ride safer, and less demanding for the passengers, so that men and women with work to do in space can "commute" aloft, without having to spend years in training for the skills and rigors of old-style space flight. As scientists and technicians are actually able to accompany their instruments into space, limiting boundaries between our manned and unmanned space programmes will disappear. Development of new space applications will be able to proceed much faster. Repair or servicing of satellites in space will become possible, as will delivery of valuable payloads from orbit back to Earth.

    The general reliability and versatility which the Shuttle system offers seems likely to establish it quickly as the workhorse of our whole space effort, taking the place of all present launch vehicles except the very smallest and very largest.

    NASA and many aerospace companies have carried out extensive design studies for the Shuttle. Congress has reviewed and approved this effort. Preparation is now sufficient for us to commence the actual work of construction with full confidence of success. In order to minimize technical and economic risks, the space agency will continue to take a cautious evolutionary approach in the development of this new system. Even so, by moving ahead at this time, we can have the Shuttle in manned flight by 1978, and operational a short time later.

    It is also significant that this major new national enterprise will engage the best efforts of thousands of highly skilled workers and hundreds of contractor firms over the next several years. The amazing 'technology explosion' that has swept this country in the years since we ventured into space should remind us that robust activity in the aerospace industry is healthy for everyone - not just in jobs and income, but in the extension of our capabilities in every direction. The continued pre-eminence of America and American industry in the aerospace field will be an important part of the Shuttle's 'payload'.

    Views of the Earth from space have shown us how small and fragile our home planet truly is. We are learning the imperatives of universal brotherhood and global ecology learning to think and act as guardians of one tiny blue and green island in the trackless oceans of the Universe. This new program will give more people more access to the liberating perspectives of space, even as it extends our ability to cope with physical challenges of Earth and broadens our opportunities for international cooperation in low-cost, multi-purpose space missions.

    'We must sail sometimes with the wind and sometimes against it', said Oliver Wendell Holmes, 'but we must sail, and not drift, nor lie at anchor'. So with man's epic voyage into space - a voyage the United States of America has led and still shall lead.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2017
  6. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    From another page,

    How Richard Nixon Changed NASA
    John Logsdon's new book shows how the post-Apollo era was defined by Richard Nixon


    ....three key decisions Nixon made regarding the U.S. space program, which had long-term consequences for NASA. The three decisions were:

    • To treat the space program as one area of domestic policy competing with other concerns, not as a privileged activity
    • To lower U.S. ambitions in space by ending human spaceflight beyond low Earth orbit for the foreseeable future and not embark on another space goal requiring a massive investment similar to Apollo
    • To build NASA’s post-Apollo program around the space shuttle without establishing a specific goal or long-term strategy the shuttle would support

    Edited to add: we can all thank Tricky Dicky for the lowering US ambitions towards space over the following decades.
    IMHO, that was because there was no foreseeable economic use of anything beyond Earth orbit and going further eats up resources that could be better spent elsewhere.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2017
  7. solarion

    solarion Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    The US federal regime isn't open or honest about much of anything. They're incredibly effective liars/propagandists, but they're almost never honest...or open. The Apollo missions are held up as a crown jewel of Amerikan know how and exceptionalism, yet the very guy heading up NASA spent years learning to hide his German accent because he was quite literally the guy that built the V2 that was used to slaughter British civilians. That technology is the forerunner of the Saturn V...and that's the real legacy of the US space program of the 60s and 70s...not the silly propaganda we're taught in skools.

    The federal regime deserves marks for royally screwing the Soviets...hardcore, I mean it was the Soviets that paid the heaviest price by a mile for WWII and America that reaped the bulk of the spoils.

    That was certainly a neat trick, but I suspect if your standard issue Amerikan tax farm animal knew the entire history of NASA they'd not be so anxious to hold up these, likely faked, landings as evidence of how great it is to be American.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2017
  8. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    THE NIXON SPACE DOCTRINE

    -Bold exploration of the planets and the universe. <--- more probes, less people. Ie: cheaper
    -Seek to extend man’s capability to live and work in space <---easier and cheaper to do in LEO than on the Moon
    -Continued exploration of the moon, but spaced so as to maximize scientific return for each mission. <--- no big costly programs that do the same thing over and over in a short time span.
    -Hasten and expand the practical applications of space technology. <--- the closer you do this to Earth, the cheaper it is.
    -Encourage greater international cooperation in space. <--- get others to share in the costs making it cheaper for us.
    -Reduce substantially the cost of space operations. <--- and spend money in R&D to make it all even cheaper.

    With these initiatives, President Nixon influenced the greatest lasting impact on America’s space program. His redefinition of space priorities, in line with the pragmatic needs of the public, guided the tenets of NASA policy for the next 40 years. What had once been a race to the moon by all means necessary became a more reliable mechanism for technological innovation and perhaps more importantly, international cooperation.
     
  9. DodgebyDave

    DodgebyDave Metal Messiah Midas Member

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    At the same time Watchingtown actively deflected from The Soviet Gulag and other horrors of that system. What's the difference between National Socialists and Global Communists?

    100m dead and a NYC pr firm!

    Would you rather had the Peenemunde team gone to the Soviets? Men build weapons, They built rockets. We built the Atomic Bomb.

    Regardless, many of those vile scientist were actively sabotaging the German programs in nasty little ways, among those pissing in the guidance systems

    Tell the whole story. Don't cherry pick.
     
  10. #48Fan

    #48Fan Silver Member Silver Miner

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    When I was a kid, I lived next to Beale AFB for a couple years. Used to love seeing the Blackbird flying overhead.
     
  11. solarion

    solarion Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    I'd rather those scientists were tried for war crimes...just as Truman probably should have been for nuking so many of his fellow humans. The US remains the only nation to ever use atomic weapons in anger...and I think that's something we all have to live with. That Amerikans live with it so easily while accepting the ridiculous notion that we have the morale authority to run around the globe preventing "rogue states" from getting nukes themselves has to be among the greatest examples of cognitive dissonance ever. I've heard all the "...but but but...we had to" crap, but it doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

    Don't think that just because I'm rightly critical of the US federal regime that it means that I romanticize about socialism. Statists/collectivists are short sighted ignorant assholes, I don't care if they cherish twisted crosses or hammers and sickles.
     
  12. DodgebyDave

    DodgebyDave Metal Messiah Midas Member

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    Should Chuck Yeager have been tried for flying CAP over Dresden?
     
  13. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Granted, but every rocket launch was done in the public eye. Soviets got to launch theirs literally in the middle of knowhere and controlled all access to the launches by any media. If they were allowed there at all. Our failures blew up in front of millions of people and cameras of the press.

    Yes, what you're saying here is true. op paper clip was a real thing.
    ...but even if Saturn V was built on V2 technology, that doesn't prove it didn't go to the Moon. It just further shows that there are in fact distasteful happenings in our national past.


    The Soviets got their share of scientists too. They also got territory and all their satellite nations as part of their spoils of war.
    ...and it wouldn't surprise me if how all of it was going to be divided up, had been discussed ahead of time at Yalta.


    Also, if these really were Stalin's goals for after WW2, I'd say that he pretty well succeeded.

    What were the goals Stalin and the Soviet Union in the aftermath of the Second World War?
    The Soviet Supreme leader was an incredibly ambitious man and hoped to expand the Soviet Empire, after the defeat of the Third Reich and the Empire of Japan. Stalin sought to achieve four specific objectives. After the calamnity of World War Two, he wanted ensure the security of the Soviet Union, the expand of Communism beyond the Soviet Union, secure his position in world affairs and create of a Soviet empire.
     
  14. solarion

    solarion Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    Not in my opinion.
    Nope, but it does go to motive. The federal regime had recently murdered its own duly elected figurehead in the most public and gruesome way remember. Remember too that it was that same figurehead(JFK) that committed us to going to the moon. The whole thing just stinks.
    Yeah Stalin made out fine. The Soviet people however? ...uh not so much. What was the overall Soviet death count? ...30,000,000 military and civilian dead by some counts.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2017
  15. DodgebyDave

    DodgebyDave Metal Messiah Midas Member

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    I grew up pretty much at Weir Cook in Indianapolis, even though my da was long out of the airforce he was called up quite a bit by the Air Force to go to Grissom to work on the B-58 Hustlers, they used basically the same engine as the Convair 880, my dad was a wizard on those.

    It was an awesome time to be a kid!
     
  16. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    I'll bet. I'd have loved to seen that.
    Edited to add: about the best I got to see was the GoodYear blimp a few times. lol
     
  17. DodgebyDave

    DodgebyDave Metal Messiah Midas Member

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    Why not? He was involved in an operation that killed more civilians in 3 nights than all of the V1 and V2's combined. The V1's and the V2's were a tactical and a strategic failures that rarely killed anything besides cows and fish

     
  18. solarion

    solarion Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    You answered it for me. We could debate about whether it was an unConstitutional order he should have been expected to refuse, but you asked my opinion and my opinion is that I do not fault General Yeager.

    ...and so we're crystal clear, it's not like I'm saying Von Braun was a maggot on the same level as Mengele, Himmler, Göring, Speer, etc. My issue lies with the US federal regime whitewashing his background and sticking him at the head of their crappy military agency. An agency, btw, which most Amerikans still mistakenly believe is a civilian operation.
     
  19. DodgebyDave

    DodgebyDave Metal Messiah Midas Member

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    constitutional is irrelevant. Chuck Yeager willfully obeyed a direct order to commit a war crime.

    Whitewashing his background?

     
  20. solarion

    solarion Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    Yes, he did...and no I would not prefer he be prosecuted. I'm a little surprised you can accuse me of "cherry picking" and then get caught up discussing Chuck Yeager for awhile. lol There were other guys in the skies over Germany, shall we try to find each of their names so you can ask me my opinion on whether they should face prosecution for their transgressions?

    I've really no idea why you posted that video.
     
  21. DodgebyDave

    DodgebyDave Metal Messiah Midas Member

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    Lets just cut right to the chase

     
  22. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Granted, but it's still not any proof that Apollo missions were faked. In fact, I'd say it bolsters the claim we did go, because look at the lengths they were willing to go to get guys with rocketry know how.


    Whitewashing they in fact did. Still doesn't prove anything was faked though. Just more distasteful stuff.
     
  23. solarion

    solarion Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    It's nearly 59 minutes. Is there a particular timeframe I should be looking at?
    lol ...can't tell if serious. Are you suggesting the DOD wanted rockets so they could go to the moon? Pretty sure they were, and ARE a great deal more concerned with how many megatons they can transport and how quickly they can vaporize x number of square miles.

    Edit: So we're clear DOD = Department of WAR.
     
  24. DodgebyDave

    DodgebyDave Metal Messiah Midas Member

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    You said von Braun was a war criminal. I provided an example of another war criminal. You don't like it.

    Regardless of the covert efforts by the entire Peenemunde team to sabotage the V1 and V2s, in effect resulting in on pad failures, misfires, explosions

    Tell the whole story. If you don't know the whole story, do more research

    In your opinion.....lol.....you really should work on a better opinion!

    Yes, it's 59 minutes. that's irrelevant. In order to actually have an educated opinion you need to spend YEARS studying this stuff. After all, it is rocket science!
     
  25. solarion

    solarion Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    I didn't actually...

    I said this:
    You've both removed context and mis-characterized my comments.
    Thanks, that was very telling. BTW...blow me.
     
  26. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Says the guy who earlier posted a two hour vid in post #99

    Just funnin' ya Sol.
     
  27. solarion

    solarion Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    lol Had I led with "let's cut to the chase" that would have been somewhat deserved.

    "hey let's cut to the chase! ...and to do that we'll use this melted plastic KFC knife!"

    I did watch the brief music video posted prior to that, just didn't see how it was the least bit relevant.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2017
  28. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Speaking of the V2's, I always wondered why Hitler never used them against troops he was fighting on the two fronts. Seems to me that V2's raining down upon the Soviets and Americans and other Allies he was fighting would have helped his side considerably.
    ...but let's not get too far off the subject of the faked or not Moon landings. I've been enjoying the debate.
     
  29. solarion

    solarion Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    My own understanding...and apologies in advance to Dave the self proclaimed expert on apparently...everything if I'm off a bit, was that there weren't enough V2s to go around and that they(the NAZIs) determined that they'd have a greater effect on a civilian population. Probably true particularly given the limited accuracy of the weapons.
     
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  30. DodgebyDave

    DodgebyDave Metal Messiah Midas Member

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    Like I said, the V1's and the V2's were tactical and strategic failures. They would have been useless against troops, they were area weapons with no accuracy. They were terror weapons, not strategic or tactical in any way.
     
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  31. DodgebyDave

    DodgebyDave Metal Messiah Midas Member

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    The Chinese say we went there, The India Space people found the same things. NASA showed their pics.

    Yes I know about this stuff. I've been studying and flying airplanes and rockets since I was 5 years old. I designed and built a 3 stage mach 2 15000 ft apogee model and got a visit from the FBI when I was 12

    Some don't like my style. I don't care. That's what you get.
     
  32. DodgebyDave

    DodgebyDave Metal Messiah Midas Member

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    from the horses mouth, horses ass

     
  33. solarion

    solarion Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    Kewl story. No sorry, after the last two video selections I'm not bothering with this 1.5 hour romp. You may be a genius in your own mind, but your video selections suck ballz bro.

    Actually, NASA said they accidentally deleted the best pics. They had to be degaussed and recycled to save space on their video shelf.

    China is hoping to get some guys out there...possibly a mere 5 decades after NASA...if they hurry. India? For realz? I thought they only aimed rockets at Pakistan.

    Jeebus, it really bugs you that I picked on Wernher doesn't it? 2.5 hours of video...plus a propaganda music selection already! lol Try not to take it so personally Dave.
     
  34. DodgebyDave

    DodgebyDave Metal Messiah Midas Member

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    Ahhahahahahahahahaha did you even watch the Tom Leher video? He makes fun of Von Braun!

    Hey, It isn't my fault this stuff is over your head.

    Stop thinking, meat, it can only hurt the team!
     
  35. #48Fan

    #48Fan Silver Member Silver Miner

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    I actually grew up about an hour from Edwards AFB (living near Beale was about a two year stint). I remember hearing when the space shuttle was about to land every so often (the sonic boom). Once, I thought I saw a glimpse of it in the clouds, but can't say for certain. I had several opportunities to go and watch it land, however I guess I was too busy (or something) as I have always been very interested in anything having to do with flight. Sure wish I would have went, at least once.
     
  36. DodgebyDave

    DodgebyDave Metal Messiah Midas Member

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  37. RealJack

    RealJack Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    The intro to this video reminds me of the intro to The Twilight Zone.
     
  38. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Here's short one about NASA's proposed plan to send a manned mission to Venus. It wouldn't have landed, just looped around and came back.
    ...but had Tricky Dicky not slashed their budget, it might have actually happened. Instead they used that money for the




    Yea, prolly should have made the time to go see it. Nothing like being able to experience things first hand. I've seen the space shuttle re-entering several times, most always at night. The trail it leaves looks awesome. Could hardly ever get anyone else interested in going to watch for it. First time I saw one during the day, was Columbia as it was burning up.
    Then they quit re-entering on that trajectory. Which I always thought was stupid, because the only reason they were able to recover and examine the wreckage to fully understand what happened, is because it happened over land. The other orbits they re-enter off of took it over the East Pacific across Mexico and the Gulf.
    Had it crashed into the Gulf, good luck finding it.
     
  39. solarion

    solarion Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    That's the only one I did watch in its entirety and as I have stated previously it's irrelevant to the topic at hand. I did watch a bit of the "cut to the chase" video your posted. Unfortunately half a dozen minutes in they were still gabbing about WWI. Cutting to the chase seemed to be far from the intent.

    ...and yes I think your arrogance has been adequately displayed for one day bud. I've yet to see any justification for your arrogance, but we've all seen the plumage little peacock.
    Interesting idea, though I'm not sure the risk/reward was there. I mean it seems a shame to risk men's lives just to drive around the planet and from what I learned in public skool Venus is entirely too hostile an environment to consider landing upon...particularly in the 70s.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2017
  40. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    The point is that NASA had higher sights in mind than low Earth orbit. The Venus mission also shows they were trying to find more things to do with existing hardware. Ie: they were being cost conscious while still trying to push boundaries.

    Very true, Venus is un-landable by manned missions. The best idea for Venus would be the "floating city" concept.

     

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