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First Spouse Coins

Discussion in 'PM's - Coins - Numis - Base Metals' started by ppius13, Apr 1, 2010.



  1. HistoryStudent

    HistoryStudent Midas Member Midas Member

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    CLSPORTS...


    With all due respect - and you certainly and honestly deserve that for being somewhat cautious...

    Yes, if you take away the INTERNET with common sense mixed with GREED it will be 100 years ---

    However, the INTERNET might not go away...

    And frankly, I sincerely doubt that GREED will also leave human nature...

    Oh, and that 100 years on HC's example mixed with my GREED & INTERNET examples read on...

    A 1995-W American Silver Eagle graded Proof-70 DCAM by Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS) was sold at auction on March 31st for $86,654.70 by GreatCollections. This sale set a new world record price for the popular silver bullion coin series. According to the press release, "The 1995-W is the ultimate key to the series with the lowest mintage and is notorious for imperfections, explaining the low percentage graded at the perfect Proof-70 DCAM grade," said Ian Russell, President/founder of GreatCollections.

    Boy that $300 turned into almost $86,700.00 not a bad profit for a slab cost, EH?

    Greater sucker theory mixed with P.T. Barnum's quote, "there's a sucker born every minute."

    Read below...
     
  2. HistoryStudent

    HistoryStudent Midas Member Midas Member

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    Please see above HC - and MY proverbial HAT IS off to YOU.

    Sometimes one is so busy (meaning me!) they miss the the entire forest counting the
    trees. (Read the 2015s in spouses).

    Your post hit me like a Superman tapping my head with with a fifty-pound mallet re: the 2014s.

    Thanks, in return please watch all the Truman & Eisenhower spouses and the mint. They want to
    assist the Kennedy ones. They've had so many losers in this poorly designed and executed series
    that SHOULDA WOULDA COULDA been excellent with more foresight.
     
  3. HistoryStudent

    HistoryStudent Midas Member Midas Member

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    No "body" loses his keister buying at these prices with the mathematics of fiat on your rear end blowing up a gale toward your sails...

    Chapter seven in Jordan's 1st book Modern Comm. Coins - only two pages 71 & 72
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2015
  4. HistoryStudent

    HistoryStudent Midas Member Midas Member

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    Today MINT news on sales show Harding pf at 2,417 past Roosevelt FDR

    Coolidge pf at 2,368 closing in on Roosevelt FDR

    Hoover pf at 2,167 about 200 off Roosevelt 2,377 pf.


    Interesting times are ahead...

    Kennedy comes out a week from Thursday on 6-25

    Hold on to your undersold undervalued under-loved under-spouses from

    2011 onward...

    Every US Mint State spouse was under 3,000 since then

    Every US Proof State spouse was under 4,000 since then

    Some will be under MS 1,900 and PF 2,400 from now onward...
     
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  5. EO 11110

    EO 11110 He Hate Me Mother Lode

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    bullion, not coins

    they are made to gold bullion specs, not gold coin specs
     
  6. savvydon

    savvydon Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    I don't think that is totally accurate. Many 'numismatic' modern items are minted with bullion specs yet are collected as numismatic items. Take a look at 2008 gold proof Buffalo fractional set, for instance. Try offering the owner of those coins bullion money and see what you get told.
     
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  7. HistoryStudent

    HistoryStudent Midas Member Midas Member

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    Savvydon you are right and have history of the US Mint to prove it.

    This won't make us real popular because after-the-fact the POOR folks feel like they missed the
    golden goose and got a rotten egg. But...

    Eric Jordan covered that whole issue in his book...

    Chapter seven in Jordan's 1st book Modern Comm. Coins - only two pages 71 & 72

    Pages 45 through 48 are worth their weight in gold too.

    Spouses hit most of the major reasons for the MINT FUBARs

    Too expensive

    Dilution of demand by too many per year

    Too ugly

    Production runs cut short

    Mass melting (in 2007 they could of melted half of them)

    Not saved by collectors

    Blank shortage or foul ups

    Too hard to strike

    Recession in the economy

    They were the perfect poster child for Eric Jordan's book...

    We can't go to the bank yet but it will not take 100 years like the $50 Pan-Ams that sold for $100...

    Nope I figure like MCM founder John Maben said in 2012,
    "someday (HS note: soon after they go dark - 2017) they will be a blatant missed opportunity."
     
  8. EO 11110

    EO 11110 He Hate Me Mother Lode

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    it is correct. as are you. there is collectable bullion.

    US coins are not made to commodity standards with ceremonial face values stamped on them. that is bullion. first spouse is bullion. modern american eagles are bullion.

    coins are made to the legal standard using the purity, weights, and face values representative of actual coins. a $5 commem of today is made of this standard....the same as the $5 gold coin minted in 1900.

    didnt mean to hijack this thread.....just grates on me that coins is in the title
     
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  9. savvydon

    savvydon Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    I understand. There is truth in what you say. For the majority of collectors, though, it probably adds up to semantics. I try not to sweat the small stuff. Besides, whatever you want to call the First Spouse series, it seems to be a market which is starting to awake from a long, deep slumber.
     
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  10. HistoryStudent

    HistoryStudent Midas Member Midas Member

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    NEWS.

    They will NOW make a RONNIE REAGAN gold spouse coin (bullion coin that is accepted by the coin collectors as all modern coins are).

    They will also make a 1916 DIME, QUARTER, and DOLLAR in GOLD BULLION COINS next year too.

    That means that CARTER might still have a chance with BUSH I: depending of course upon their moralities.

    Gold is waking up a bit because of the US Dollar which is falling a tad at the moment.

    SAVVYDON - "I understand. There is truth in what you say. For the majority of collectors, though, it probably adds up to semantics. I try not to sweat the small stuff. Besides, whatever you want to call the First Spouse series, it seems to be a market which is starting to awake from a long, deep slumber. "

    Very nicely put and said. It reminds me of the story in Jordan's book about the modern ASE proof guy who refused to buy the 1995 Gold Set with the only 1995 W ASE in it and making HIM sell off the gold coins (bullion) for TOTAL inconvenience. That way he'd get the ASE bullion coin for only about $200 which recently sold for over $80,000.00 - and sold off his whole ASE proof set in haste and madness. He was mad at the US Mint and missed the forest through the trees.

    I wish I was collecting the modern coins back then in 1995. My bullion store friend showed me the old Saints in an old slab. That was when I started in the gold classics in 1999 ish - they were cheap then: a Saint $20 double Eagle was about $400. I sent them into PCGS all 11 of them and received 4 - 65s, 4 - 64s, and 3 - 63s (all for about $4,400 plus slabbing costs) - as they were all marked 60s on those old huge Blanchard type 1980s slabs. I had passed up so many reasonable deals until then. That woke me up from your deep slumber.

    No matter who we are we sometimes miss the great deals. Eric Jordan's books both are wonderful insight to human nature and gives one common sense.
     
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  11. HistoryStudent

    HistoryStudent Midas Member Midas Member

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    You are not hijacking the thread. If you read Jordan's books you'll see you were the same as the old coin collectors of old. That's what makes for really low mintages. For sales go way down for all the wrong reasons that makes them really hard to find. True rarity is coins you can't find not some fancy label. And if they made only a few thousand of them they will be very hard to find shortly.

    We welcome your opinions. And until I read Jordan's books - dang me! - I felt the same way.

    Now if the US Mint would just cooperate and shut down all the released spouses under 2,000 - many would be in HIGH CLOVER - the 4-leaf kind!
     
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  12. hernancortes

    hernancortes Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    lol... the mint's latest report now shows a re-re-adjustment of the above numbers back upward. In short it is all screwed up and can't be relied upon and most likely the true sales will not be known for years until the final audit. I'm confident the lower numbers are the true numbers. In the meantime the sales report will dictate the market.
     
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  13. HistoryStudent

    HistoryStudent Midas Member Midas Member

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    Good for you taking a stand and letting your feelings out.

    I always consider the released numbers massaged like the US C.P.I. to keep the inflation numbers down - only the coins are released upward. They (the bullion dealers) melted thousands and thousands of these 2007 spouses from ALL the empty plastic holders at the main bullion dealer houses between 2008-2009. The mintage numbers are truly off.
    That's why I follow Jordan and his friends that keep a running TAB on coins available to see if they really are so-called rare.


    The competition is keen for the gold coins with Buffalo, AGE varieties, Spouse varieties, and such. Now we can add these next year

    http://www.coinworld.com/news/mint-releases-mock-up-designs-for-gold-2016-centennial-issues.html

    Now that will add PM coins to the 2016 POT.


    https://www.coinworld.com/news/nancy-reagan-first-spouse-coin-designs-reviewed-by-ccac.html
     
  14. b_cahill

    b_cahill Seeker Seeker

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    That is an unusual sales report for the '13 spouses this week!

    Ida McKinley Proof: +81
    Ida McKinley Unc: +7
    Edith Roosevelt Proof: +50
    Edith Roosevelt Unc: +48
    Helen Taft Proof: 0
    Helen Taft Unc: 0
    Ellen Wilson Proof: 0
    Ellen Wilson Unc: 0
    Edith Wilson Proof: 0
    Edith Wilson Unc: 0

    It is not too surprising that there is an adjustment to McKinley and Roosevelt numbers, but no sales for any of the six coins that are still available seems odd.
     
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  15. HistoryStudent

    HistoryStudent Midas Member Midas Member

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    So far they show 365,174 total spouses minted/sold from 2007 (182,587 ounces).
    Compare that to the sales of American Gold Eagles from 2007.

    Jordan's book pages 11 & 12 - in "Modern Commemorative Coins" 2008.

    The BULLION houses melted 10,000 to 25,000 thousand coins in 2008 from the prior spouses never accounted for - but seen by many
    in the thousands of EMPTY SPOUSE special plastic holders that they now charge $12.00 for plus shipping.

    What matters is the available coins for sale at current prices plus premium (if any) not some number given out like an political correct
    INFLATION figure. LOL.

    True rarity is lack of good material at what is a market price.
     
  16. HistoryStudent

    HistoryStudent Midas Member Midas Member

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    It's almost like a ROAD RUNNER CARTOON trying to be (catch the truth) caught by antagonist.
     
  17. hernancortes

    hernancortes Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Exactly those numbers are adjustments, not sales, and they've been fiddling with it back and forth between the XLS and the published report. This stuff ain't my forte' but how hard can it be to stay on top of an inventory that barely changes from week to week. I mean look at the sales for the last few years.
     
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  18. HistoryStudent

    HistoryStudent Midas Member Midas Member

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    Tomorrow the SPOUSE BIG ONE the US Mint has been waiting for - drum roll please - the JFK Jackie Kennedy comes out for sale. They started at many thousands and

    http://www.coinnews.net/2015/06/21/jacqueline-kennedy-gold-coins-popular-news/

    and who knows if they will be a big hit. But 15,000 each is a lot more than the 2,000 MS and 3,000 PF for the last three years have been selling.


    Besides I wonder what the machine they are using to count the sales: I suspect an ancient Chinese one with ten operators and they are all arguing.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suanpan

    With the 2015 gold Kennedy coins issued earlier this year (those almost 73,000 gold proofs of JFK) I wonder about the new spouse
    that arrives tomorrow for sale.
     
  19. tradeshack

    tradeshack Seeker Seeker

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    Quality and rarity are offered with all spouse coins presently on sale but, they will never earn more than a small premium without the appreciation of popular demand. Buyers for the 2013-W Reverse Proof Gold Buffalo were satisfied with 47,836 units. In comparison, I’m interested to see if 30,000 Jacqueline’s are enough as it will be the one and only first spouse some Kennedy collectors ever own. PCGS grading for the commercial dealers? I expect secondary market prices will escalate after the first backorder even though another strike is sure to follow. This could get hot!
     
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  20. HistoryStudent

    HistoryStudent Midas Member Midas Member

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    The Kennedy spouse may not deliver high sales because of the DILUTION OF COLLECTOR coins available.

    I'm more interested if the US Mint quietly backs off selling all their LOSERS form 2013.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2015
  21. angryhippy

    angryhippy Seeker Seeker

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  22. tradeshack

    tradeshack Seeker Seeker

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    Would of been more had the mint not ran out.

    And the question develops, "to who were the 7,102 proofs sold when the mint showed 'Backorder' the same minute sales were to start?"
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2015
  23. gold4278

    gold4278 Silver Member Silver Miner

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    Subscription sales and retail stores like APMEX, etc I would imagine.
     
  24. savvydon

    savvydon Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Guess we will find out by who is offering them. I got my order in by 12:15. We will see when the coin arrives.
     
  25. hernancortes

    hernancortes Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    My Jackie unc shipped today for an order placed about 12:15 also.

    The mint's XLS sheet for the week has the Jackie at 4072 unc / 7936 PR as of 6/28. But again the XLS vs. the official report doesn't always agree; the XLS is showing 2364 Harding PR's while the shop shows just 5 left in stock.
     
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  26. savvydon

    savvydon Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    I have not even received notice of shipment yet, but I just got an email from MCM that they are selling the Jackie proof and unc already slabbed! It seems the playing field is not quite level. :angry_smile:
     
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  27. b_cahill

    b_cahill Seeker Seeker

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    This week's sales report is stranger still! A whole lot of negative numbers for the '13s & '14s.

    A few years ago, I had placed an order for a couple of 1/10 oz. gold eagles on the Mint website. About a week and a half later, they were listed as sold out. Several months later after getting 5 or 6 e-mails with changing shipping dates, I received a notice that my order had been cancelled. I called the 800 number for the mint to complain. The young lady told me that the number of orders had exceeded the number of available coins. I explained to her that the website had the coins listed for sale well after I placed my order. She hemmed and hawed about phone orders and anticipated cancellation projections not always being accurate. I told her that any of several relatively inexpensive accounting software products could fix their inventory issues. She vaguely acknowledged that the system could be improved, but her basic message was that she only could take phone orders and track existing orders. The conversation went in circles.

    I remember thinking to myself, this girl is probably a newly-hired GS-3 who could continue this conversation all day. I would get increasingly frustrated and annoyed as she did her job as she was trained to do. I've had to remind myself a couple of times since then that the only thing that you usually get when you complain to someone manning a government customer phone line is a rise in blood pressure.
     
  28. hernancortes

    hernancortes Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    I wouldn't say this week's report is much stranger... they merely published the XLS report numbers again, which have lower totals in general. I believe the XLS numbers are much closer to the true sales because I watch it every week.
     
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  29. HistoryStudent

    HistoryStudent Midas Member Midas Member

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    With all the xxx15 DRAMA in the presidential coins and sets I noticed that the


    Out only in two months the 2015s Spouses (18,586 total) have already OUTSOLD the 2014s Spouses (15,905)

    and the 2014s have been out almost a year already. :applause_smiley: (a positive)


    The 2013s (22,868 total) have an extra two coins for the Wilson's extra spouse.
    They have been selling since November 2013. :turtle:

    Now if they could RE-release the 2013 Proof Platinum (5,700 mintage)
    or the 2013 5-star UNC $5 gold generals (5,700 mintage) that would even the
    crooked Nixon type playing field... who is Obama hiring? just saying... xxx36
     
  30. HistoryStudent

    HistoryStudent Midas Member Midas Member

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    Well KINDA!

    Remember the last weeks Supreme Court case?

    Off topic but EXTREMELY interesting if you are not brain dead.
    http://www.historynet.com/dred-scott

    Well, the US Govy has the power of APPEAL and they will use it on your tax dollar.

    And with DEEP POCKETS of those tax dollars will file an appeal in the US SUPREME COURT
    which will probably hear the case and select to prove that the GOVY has the power to _______?

    Remember when Sandra Day O'Connor left the Us Supreme Court over the GOVY POWER to grab private property? Just saying...
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2015
  31. savvydon

    savvydon Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Well, I just received notice that my Jackie's have shipped from the mint. Kind of amazing that this is happening after MCM has their slabs already back from NGC and on sale at ebay, but what's a poor boy to do?
     
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  32. tradeshack

    tradeshack Seeker Seeker

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    MCM has offered Jackie's on eBay a dollar cheaper than the mint.

    Are they selling rejects or minting their own? :wink:
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2015
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  33. HistoryStudent

    HistoryStudent Midas Member Midas Member

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    Big guess, but with over 50 years of business experience.

    I suspect that certain OVERLOADED re-sellers might not want to have 100s or 1,000s of JACKIE coins in boxes when they know
    EXACTLY right now - how many were ordered by their regular clients.

    They also know from common sense and experience as a private company;
    and not the devil-may-care foolish deep pockets of mint govy management what would be prudent right now.
     
  34. savvydon

    savvydon Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    They are not minting their own. First, they get a small discount from the US Mint as a bulk purchaser, so they are not losing money on the sale. Second, these are probably grading rejects - another words coins that did not get a 70 grade. MCM probably makes most of their margin off the 70s they get from grading services.
     
  35. HistoryStudent

    HistoryStudent Midas Member Midas Member

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    They still did not grade them to sell even though they sell LOTS of MS69s and PF69s, right?

    Again they are getting gun shy - and thanks for your post because it was 100% on target - PLUS!
     
  36. savvydon

    savvydon Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Other than coins with obvious blemishes it can be very difficult to determine which modern one submits will receive a 70 and which a 69. My guess is that they submit most of what they purchase. Either they crack out some of the 69s they get an put them back with the OGP, or they have an arrangement with the third party graders whereby the 69s on some submissions are not slabbed. Probably the latter.
     
  37. Foxwoods Man

    Foxwoods Man Silver Member Silver Miner

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    They (or anyone) can set a minimum grade for slabbing...otherwise they are returned
     
  38. savvydon

    savvydon Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Right. Couldn't remember if you could ask for a minimum grade of 70.
     
  39. HistoryStudent

    HistoryStudent Midas Member Midas Member

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    You were very astute to see the motive behind the sales. I just sat down today to study the NGC & PCGS populations of the spouses.
    SINCE a few years ago they have halved their total populations from being slabbed; compared to what they used to slab.

    These spouses remind me in some ways like the old 1930s at Newport Beach, CA. A sub divider bought Balboa Island and dredged the place to make it an island. Then sold off lots rather cheaply. They were overlooked and undervalued.

    Contrary investing is always that - just finding something overlooked, undervalued and hated. Like gold and silver in 2001.
    Like gold and silver in 2015.
     
  40. HistoryStudent

    HistoryStudent Midas Member Midas Member

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    I might be wrong BUT:

    I can not find the TAFT PROOF spouse around 2,550 mintage on the US Mint site.

    Nor can I find the TRUMAN PROOF spouse around 2,000 mintage on the US Mint site.

    Boy things are strange or I am...

    On a search I see that Bess Truman is UNAVAILABE.
    They can make more because it is a 2015 coin unlike the FDR's SPOUSE when they sold out in 2015 and they were a 2014 coin.

    Taft PROOF spouse looks long gone in stealth mode and the GALs are all mixed up so one has to go from top to bottom with a pencil
    LISTING.

    Like a constipated mathmatician who used a pencil to solve his problem. LOL
     

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