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GOLD’S DAYS OF GLORY BEGINNING AS DOLLAR’S ARE ENDING

Discussion in 'Gold Silver (All things Metal)' started by Scorpio, May 31, 2017.



  1. southfork

    southfork Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    hope they had it assayed
     
  2. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    All manipulations end at some point. Time to get prepared for it is now.

    If US debt continues to rise while GDP fails to rise as much or more, it's merely a matter of time until the Dollar is no longer top dog and oil is no longer priced in it. It's easy for the Dollar to be top dog when it represents the #1 economy. When we started this voyage, the US was the #1 creditor nation in the World. Our currency deserved World Reserve status. Times comin' it will no longer deserve that status and IMHO, the longer it keeps that status while no longer deserving it, the bigger the correction will be when it finally happens.


    When what I wrote about above happens, it's all gonna go to the Moon when measured in Dollars. Au, Ag, Pd, Pt, btc, etc etc. It'll be breath taking. Mark my words.


    OMG, here we go again! lol


    Yea, goldie says that it doesn't have to be a gov that decrees something be money for that something to be money. Only that it be an "authority".
    ...and I'd agree if only goldie could offer a legitimate example of what that authority might be if it is not gov. My argument was that the only entity I know of that could do that is gov. I've asked goldie numerous times to provide the name of any authority other than gov that could do so, but goldie always ignores the question and continues to apply an inaccurate definition of the word.

    How can we have a discussion about anything, if some people insist on creating their own definitions to the words they use?
     
  3. solarion

    solarion Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    Plainly said "authority" in question would require a legitimized/legal monopoly on the use of force. Otherwise people would just ignore them and there'd be competition.
     
  4. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    That's exactly how I see it too, but somehow goldie thinks there's is some other authority capable of declaring it to be money, but refuses to say what that authority might be.

    @goldielox1 , shoes back on your foot to explain what authority you are referring to that could declare btc to be money.
     
  5. Irons

    Irons Deep Sixed Site Supporter Mother Lode

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    I haven't been able to buy many Sovereigns and Ducats the past year or so, I have had quite a few vehicle expenses and home improvement projects that needed to be taken care of.
    I actually sold quite a few coins to help get all that done to but hell that's OK, that's what they are there for.

    Now that I'm pretty much done with the improvements and chores I am looking forward to hunting down some coins again!
    Fecking great obsession/hobby folks! . :2 thumbs up:

    .
     
  6. goldielox1

    goldielox1 Silver Miner Seeker

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    I gave you several examples in the bitcoin thread. Either you were too busy spouting off your mouth to read and comprehend or you are playing dumb since having provided examples blows your narrative out of water.
     
  7. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    You did no such thing.


    You must be joking. lol Your examples are a huge stretch, at best, because none of them have any power to make btc be money. By you insisting that it is, the burden is on you to show how it is fiat. Just having it created on a computer is not enough to meet the definition of the word.



    What authority made btc fiat? You say it is, so you must know who decreed it to be such.


    What person or organization in authority declared btc is money? That's the question you can't/won't answer. You insist btc is fiat, who declared it to be that?



    What King declared btc to be money? You insist that it is fiat, so I insist that you explain who made it be that.



    All 3 of your definitions refer to what would be a governing body. What authority made btc fiat?





    So again, what authority made btc be money?
    ....and your examples all consist of types of government.



    Did a prison gang declare btc to be money? I don't think so, and even if he did, it would not be fiat to us on the outside. You are on the outside, right?
    ...and a prison gang is like a government.

    You said btc is fiat. Who or what declared it to be so?



    Did your dad make btc be money? If not, how can it be fiat to you? You said btc IS fiat, so what authority made it so? Either answer the question as to who made it so, or start using the proper definition to describe btc.

    Edited to add: how can we have a logical and intelligent discussion about anything if you insist on using inaccurate definitions for the words you use?
     
  8. goldielox1

    goldielox1 Silver Miner Seeker

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    Wow you are really dense. Why would an outsider care what an insider's form of fiat is? e.g. If I lived in America why would I care what Qutar's form of fiat is? By definition, I would care about my own fiat. Let's assume a world where we aren't moving about under different authorities, and exchanging fiat, just a typical person that lives his entire life in one country.
     
  9. solarion

    solarion Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    https://www.google.com/search?q=ety...me..69i57j0.4667j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

    fi·at
    ˈfēˌät,ˈfēət/
    noun
    noun: fiat; plural noun: fiats

    a formal authorization or proposition; a decree.
    "adopting a legislative review program, rather than trying to regulate by fiat"
    synonyms: decree, edict, order, command, commandment, injunction, proclamation, mandate, dictum, diktat

    To the best of my knowledge ^^^THAT is the definition of the word fiat. Could you please explain who is being forced "by decree" to use Bitcoin, what authority is issuing said decree, and what mechanism is being employed to enforce said decree? ...or perhaps provide an alternative definition for the word "fiat" so that I can try to understand why you believe BTC = fiat? As it stands it appears you just dislike fiat currency(with you there) and you also dislike bitcoin so you just lump them together as though there's some overbearing central authority forcing you to pay taxes in bitcoin. There simply is not such an authority to my knowledge...therefore bitcoin is not fiat.

    If one dislikes bitcoin, simply don't use it. I guarantee armed public "servants" will NOT show up at your door and evict you from your own premises for that decision. The same cannot be said of the US dollar however.


     
  10. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    In some cases, perhaps so.
    ...but no where near as dense as you are being on this topic. lol



    You are completely skirting the issue in an attempt to avoid having to admit you're wrong.

    The issue is that you, goldielox1, stated that btc is fiat. I responded by trying to correct you by stating that it cannot be fiat because no authority of any kind anywhere decreed it to be such.
    ...and I believe that we both agree on the definition, as you yourself posted 3 definitions of the word that all include the requirement that an authority is needed to make something be fiat.

    However, you respond by insisting it is fiat.

    So I asked you to name the authority that decreed btc to be fiat and you keep refusing to do that while continuing to inaccurately call btc fiat.

    All you did was to give examples of types of authority that could have it's own fiat, but that wasn't the question. Hence my accusation that you are skirting the issue.



    I actually find this whole thing incredibly funny because you are demonstrating in your lack of an answer that you don't really know what fiat is. Using half of a definition doesn't cut it.
    ....and if we are to have meaningful and logical discussions/debates, it is imperceptive that we use commonly accepted definitions for the words we use. All I'm asking you for is accuracy in the terms you use to label things.
     
  11. Paranoid Android

    Paranoid Android New Member

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    Insert Michael Jackson eating popcorn gif here...
     
  12. solarion

    solarion Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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  13. goldielox1

    goldielox1 Silver Miner Seeker

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    Joe, I am still waiting for your admission that there can be other forms of fiat other than government currencies. I gave you examples but you aren't man enough to admit you were incorrect.

    Now, as I said in the bitcoin thread, strictly speaking, btc is not fiat. Rather it's worse than fiat. Why? As I stated in that thread, at least normal fiats (like the US dollar), have some sort of real assets supposedly backing them. For instance, the US dollar...I think we all know there ain't no gold in fort knox backing it...but supposedly it's backed by the hardworking american people (those that are still around and aren't sponging on the system), and assets such as government owned land, natural resources, possibly privately owned land and property, etc.

    So let's be realistic, unless everyone dies from a north korean nuke and the land has secretly been sold off, the US dollar is always worth something...although magnitudes lower than it currently is due to all the debt and encumberances, but lets assume if it's backed by a penny on the dollar after wiping out the debt and selling off all the US assets and citizens into slavery.

    Now compare that to bitcoin, what is backing a bitcoin? If someone told me, there is a million barrels of oil locked up somewhere that gives a bitcoin value or a million ounces of metal or something then I'd say great, then it does at least have some sort of value floor (like I showed with the US dollar being worth say 1% of its current valuation). So if there's nothing backing it, then what gives is value? People like you argue oh the blockchain is so great, that's why it has value. But as discussed before, the blockchain technology can be applied to any other currency (gold, dollars, etc), so lets say that is done in 3 years, then I ask again what gives btc value now that every form of money uses blockchain? Uh, well it's scarce...well so are my turds but they don't seem to have any value.

    Bottom line is btc is an empty bag with no real intrinsic value. The only thing giving it value is the hope that there's another sucker out there that some time in the future will give you more fiat than you paid the previous bag holder.

    So technically it's not fiat, it's worse than fiat. So I propose we call btc "SUB-FIAT". I hope this will end this silly discussion of it not meeting the defintion of fiat...as I will try to remember to use that new term for btc and other unbacked intrinsically worthless cryptos.
     
  14. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    The point is that none of your examples were of any authority that caused btc to be fiat money.
    ...and that was the question. Ie: who/what made btc be fiat? After all, you were the one insisting it was fiat.


    Glad you finally admit you were using an incomplete definition.


    If the people would actually use btc, the same thing would back it as does the dollar. Ie hardworking Americans willing to exchange their labor for it.



    If that happens, btc will really soar to new heights.



    If it were backed in that manner, it would be shut down by gov. Anytime there is a central location that can be attacked, it will be attacked.
    Look at what happened to Liberty Dollar. Look at how napster, Kazaa, and all the other file sharing services were treated. That's why we have torrent files now. It can't be attacked at a central location and is therefor still a "thing".

    If btc were backed as you suggest, the gov would swoop in and steal it all. Would I prefer btc to have some tangible value in and of itself? Sure, but the sad reality is that doing it that way would keep iut from being a "thing" and we'd be that much more locked-in to fed system.

    So many here rail against the fed system, but when faced with an open source "Peoples money", they react in anger and horror as they cling to the very system they previously denounced. Weird.
    ...and he reason people want btc is twofold. One, they can get things they need in exchange for it and two, it generally increases in purchasing power. The dollar is good at the first thing, not the second. So in that case it is better than fiat.



    If it's only intrinsic value you are concerned with, what use do you plan on using your gold for? If you're only holding it in the hopes it will go up in value, then it only has extrinsic value to you. That'd make it the same as btc at that point.



    You can think whatever you want about somethings worth or lack thereof. I'm just glad you finally realized that words have meaning.


    No, as I explained above, btc is better than fiat because it appreciates in value over the course of time. Fiat does exactly the opposite.
    So in that regard it is in fact better than fiat money.
    ....and again, if only things that have intrinsic value are important to you, what use are you planning on using your PM's for? Are you making gold foil, or little figurines, or using it to make electrical contacts?

    If you only hold them in the hopes someone will pay you more for them later, you're doing the same thing with them as I do with btc. Ie: you are counting on its extrinsic value.
     
  15. goldielox1

    goldielox1 Silver Miner Seeker

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    I already gave you a couple examples of people that weren't governments that could make fiat currencies. Again I think your brain misfired as you can't remember that 5 minutes later.

    Wrong the US government siezed the Liberty Dollar because it was held within the US. Had it been held in country such as Switzerland, it would be doing just fine I would imagine.

    "If you're only holding it in the hopes it will go up in value, then it only has extrinsic value to you. That'd make it the same as btc at that point."

    Uh no, gold is a "store of value" which is one of the requirements of being money. btc is not a store of value anymore than a penny stock is a "store of value". If you're lucky it may still be worth something tomorrow but it wouldn't surprise many people if it returned to its intrinsic value of $0.

    "No, as I explained above, btc is better than fiat because it appreciates in value over the course of time. Fiat does exactly the opposite."

    Wrong, fiats move up and down daily relative to each other. Wake up and look at financial markets. The fiat US dollar has been gaining on most other fiat currencies for several years now. btc has been moving down against the fiat dollar the last week...15% actually, and was moving up against fiat dollars before that. That's what fiats and sub-fiats do.

    And I find it fascinating that you're basing your entire trust that this sub-fiat will appreciate in value against other fiats in the future based on what a 6-12 month bubble. You're comparing that to what gold has done for 6000 years or what even the fiat dollar has done for 100 years? That's like saying "the Astros will win the world series every year from now until eternity because look they were the best team for 6 months!"You really are myopic.

    "If you only hold them in the hopes someone will pay you more for them later, you're doing the same thing with them as I do with btc. Ie: you are counting on its extrinsic value."

    Again and this is money 101. Money is a store of value. I'm not holding money in the hopes of it going up or down. Money is repeat after me "a store of value". It's a store of my labor in the past and I can spend it in the future. Meaning 100 years ago an ounce of gold bought a great mens suit. I could bury that gold coin and find it today and assuming I didn't sell it for numismatic value, the gold would still buy a great suit.
     
  16. solarion

    solarion Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    You realize, of course, you're doing little for your case right? Comparing fiat currencies to one another is meaningless to anyone not conducting forex trades, that's what fiat indexes do to make it look like inflation doesn't exist. All the fiat crap returns to intrinsic value(zero) the US dollar is just doing so more slowly than most. Big whoop. When you compare the US dollar to tangible goods it hasn't done squat, but bitcoin has appreciated dramatically by any measure. Yet another flaw in your "bitcoin is fiat" position.

    Better make that an 8 year "bubble". Bitcoin has been appreciating vs both fiat and real assets for the majority of the past decade, but don't let facts get in the way of your narrative. I like how you dismiss a 220% gain in 5 months offhandedly as "was moving up against fiat dollars before that" but chose to precisely quantify the few days of pullback that followed. lol Thanks for the chuckle.
     
  17. michael59

    michael59 heads up-butts down Site Supporter ++ Platinum Bling

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    oh darn do I have to read all of that? Look; they are trading paper. Paper goes down to about 1250 and bounces back up. The (and, I hate myself for this) the seven sisters are inviting you into an orgy and when you get there is a buffalo party.

    full faith and credit strong = diminished earrings.

    edit: I'm just gona have to read this thread.
     
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  18. michael59

    michael59 heads up-butts down Site Supporter ++ Platinum Bling

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    who has a name of E-gone? E-gone the Grey-er-z....WTF over?

    does anyone not watch the current media-tv-crap BS?
     
  19. solarion

    solarion Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    Don't you dare dis Harold Ramis mang! He was worth 10k Hillary Killingtons. ...a million!
     
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  20. michael59

    michael59 heads up-butts down Site Supporter ++ Platinum Bling

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    yeah baby....
     
  21. michael59

    michael59 heads up-butts down Site Supporter ++ Platinum Bling

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    No he is only worth what whinner-stine wants to pay him. Hillary has the full backing of a bunch of re-tards. I know, I know......hill-a-re and a bunch of tards..... sounds like a bakery that I will never visit....*gags*.....
     
  22. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    It's your brain thats misfired because (again) none of your examples can make btc be money for us. (you and me)


    If it had been held in another country, then that country would have seized it at the behest of the US gov. Holding it in another country would also negate the main point of Liberty Dollar in that it would have been impossible to convert it back to Ag on demand. Based on your comment about it, you are demonstrating that you don't even know how Liberty Dollar worked.
    ...and Switzerland? lol In case you hadn't heard, the US gov strong armed the Swiss banks into rolling over for them. (Do you get out much?)

    Also, btc is something for all nations, not just US. If btc's "backing" were held anywhere, it would be seized. Its non-centralized peer-to-peer nature is its strongest point.


    Au has not done well holding value in the years since btc has been around. Since 2011 Au has been a dog. BTC on the other hand has gone from less than a penny to ~$7000 . There's no comparison on the amount of "stored value" between the two.


    It's stored the value I've put into it quite well.
    ....and then some.



    US fiat dollar has gained 10 points in 4 years. Wow, not.
    ....and cryptos go up and down relative to each other too. What's your point? That btc has greatly outperformed all of them? If so, good point!



    No, I'm basing it on it's entire history and the fact that every time there's even a small pullback on its price, there are plenty of buyers waiting on the sidelines for their chance to get in.


    BTC seems to be holding value quite well IMHO.
    ...and I don't really care if someone 100 years from now can use my btc to buy a suit. I'm concerned about what it can do for me today and going forward in my lifetime.


    Look goldie, I get it. You don't like btc. That's ok. You are within your Right to not like it.
    ....but your arguments against it aren't very good ones and you come across as having sour grapes for those who do like it.
     
  23. goldielox1

    goldielox1 Silver Miner Seeker

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    You're so wrong it's not even worth responding to you. You'll wake up eventually. Keep trusting in your sub-fiat and good luck.
     
  24. solarion

    solarion Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    So yeah...ummm...take *THAT* Joe!
     
  25. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Feelings mutual. Although I don't really see why you even post about cryptos to begin with. We all know you don't like them, and that's fine. I have no problem with that at all. To each their own and I wish you well on whatever you do like.
    ....but you sure seem to be bothered that other people like cryptos. Everyone here who I've seen post about owning some appear to be happy with their decision, so I really have to say that your arguments against it seem to fall on deaf ears anyways.



    I'd say you're the one who's been sleeping. Certainly missed out on 1,000's of % gains. Oh well, your choice.
     
  26. goldielox1

    goldielox1 Silver Miner Seeker

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    I guess by that metric I also missed out on a bunch of penny stocks, lottery tickets, sport book, and other misc sucker bets.
     
  27. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Some people do those things, some don't. It's called different strokes for different folks.
    ...and what exactly is your point? You've made it abundantly clear you're not a btc fan, and that's ok with me. So what else is there? You come across as being upset about the whole thing and that other people do like it.


    BTW, I bought a lottery tic once myself. Wasn't planning on it, it was just a whim while I was in the store paying for gas. Spent a buck and won $50.
    ....and it's only extremely rarely I'll buy a lottery tix, like almost never, but something told me to buy that one. So sometimes a high risk long shot pays off handsomely. If you want to make money, you gotta be willing to take a chance sometimes. Nothing ventured nothing gained.
     
  28. goldielox1

    goldielox1 Silver Miner Seeker

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    Agreed. But to act like bitcoin is an "investment" is a joke. I think it's fair to compare it to the items I did. Thus I wouldn't tell someone that didn't buy a lottery ticket or a sports gamble having "missed out on an investment".
     
  29. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    I agree too that a lottery tix isn't an investment, but if you buy the right one it becomes that after the fact. Ie: like me being $49 up.
    ....but btc can IMHO be an investment in that it has shown enough growth and has enough ups and downs for money to be made trading it or holding it. If you don't think it is, that's your prerogative.
     
  30. goldielox1

    goldielox1 Silver Miner Seeker

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    I would consider something I can do a financial analysis of "an investment". e.g. The value of a company (PE ratio, dividends, debt to income, etc.); a bond (I can investigate the credit worthiness, vs interest rate, duration, etc). I can buy if a stock is undervalued and even though it may go up or down, at least I made a decision based on the underlying fundametals. Granted a lot of people don't do this, but my point is an investment is something that at least someone could make a determination of its value.

    Something that is a shot in the dark or based on a lucky guess I certainly wouldn't call an investment: Throwing $5 on 22 on the roulette table. Being correct and seeing that it landed on 22, doesn't make it an investment after the fact (such as you claim with your lottery example). It just means you got lucky.

    Same goes for bitcoin. Even you would admit (I think) you can't tell us if it will go up or down tomorrow. You can randomly guess and can be right. There's no financial data to analyze. E.g. what is the underlying value of a bitcoin? Well $0, so you can't say I crunched the numbers and bitcoin is undervalued and should be $5000 or $10,000. It's the same as a true penny stock...the company financials say the company is bankrupt and even the bondholders have taken a haircut, yet people buy and sell these penny stocks thinking it will double from $.01 to $.02, and 1 in 10,000 might find a huge safe filled with cash in the basement and thus the penny stock may go up 10,000 fold (just like bitcoin did). However, again this is just gambling and random good luck.
     
  31. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Btc can be analyzed. Why couldn't it be?


    Can you tell me when Au will start going up? Or down?


    The value of btc is determined by the number of buyers vs number of sellers. Au works the same unless you are an actual consumer of Au. Ie: unless you use it as a raw material to make other things out of.


    Can you tell me for certain if Au is over priced or under priced? When will it hit $2k? What does your analyse tell you?


    It still comes down to what level of risk a particular person has. I get it. You have low appetite for risk, and that's ok.
     
  32. goldielox1

    goldielox1 Silver Miner Seeker

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    Cool why don't you share some analytics you crunched on some bitcoin financial metrics like i would do on a stock (PE ratio, debt-to-income, dividends, etc).
     
  33. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    There is no P/E ratio because btc is not something that has that. BTC also doesn't have a debt to income ratio as it does not have a product it sells.
    ....and dividends are something you earn on stock, but btc is not a stock.

    Does your gold have any of those things? It pays you dividends? Does it have a P/E ratio? What is your lump of gold's debt to income ratio?



    Seeing as you compare btc to stocks, you obviously don't understand that btc is a currency. So you'd look at it in a manner similar to what you'd look at in currency trading, not stocks. Try to keep up goldie. lol
     
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  34. goldielox1

    goldielox1 Silver Miner Seeker

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    Einstein, I was stating that btc could not be analyzed like a real financial instrument and you replied with "sure it can be".
    Let me repost since your brain seems to have reset like a goldfish.

    goldielox1 said:
    "I would consider something I can do a financial analysis of "an investment". e.g. The value of a company (PE ratio, dividends, debt to income, etc.); a bond (I can investigate the credit worthiness, vs interest rate, duration, etc). I can buy if a stock is undervalued and even though it may go up or down, at least I made a decision based on the underlying fundamentals. Granted a lot of people don't do this, but my point is an investment is something that at least someone could make a determination of its value."
    Joe King said: "Btc can be analyzed. Why couldn't it be?"

    Then I called you on it. Now you're saying it can't be. Surely you can't be this dumb to contradict yourself with every other post.
     
  35. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    You'd look at it in a similar fashion as any other currency trading. Surely you can't be that dumb either. Currency trading is a legitimate thing ya know. Or maybe you don't? You took awhile to understand what "fiat" means, so who knows. lol
     
  36. goldielox1

    goldielox1 Silver Miner Seeker

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    So now it's a currency trade and not an investment. Well at least you're slowly waking up.
     
  37. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Yet again it is you who needs to wake up. Currency trading is in fact a form of investment.

    We all realize that you have issues with words and their definitions, so I'll try to help you.

    Invest 1.PNG

    Invest 2.PNG


    So you see, currency trading is in fact an investment if it is done with the intention of increasing ones wealth. Remember, words have meaning.
    ...and how much longer are you going to keep forcing me to correct you?
     
  38. goldielox1

    goldielox1 Silver Miner Seeker

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    Well I suppose with that broad definition, buying beanie babies is also an investment as is an insane man gathering blades of grass or garbage for his homeless shanty (as long as in his mind those increase his wealth). Unfortunately when a definition is so broad it becomes useless...kinda like your endless dribble.
     
  39. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Seeing as you have issues with so many words and their accepted definitions, perhaps you should invest in a publishing company. That way you could publish your own dictionary and compete with Websters. lol


    Anyone reading can see that you're the only one dribbling anything, seeing as you don't seem to know the definitions of the words you use. lol

    How many more times are we gonna do this? Are you just a glutton for punishment, or what? lol

    This thread used to be about gold and the dollar but you've turned it into a btc thread. All I did was respond to you by saying, "OMG, here we go again" and you've been on me ever since. Why are you seemingly so obsessed with btc? I support your Right to not like it. Why can't you support the Right of others to like it if they want to?
     
  40. skyvike

    skyvike Gold Chaser Platinum Bling

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    So this is a familiar headline.

    Not nearly as reliable as the old adage,

    "The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent."

    ;-)
     
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