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Government 1933 $20 rehearing involving coins from 'the family of a thief'

Discussion in 'Gold Silver (All things Metal)' started by Krag, Jul 11, 2015.



  1. Krag

    Krag Planet earth Platinum Bling

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    The government contends that it should not be prevented from recovering coins from “the family of a thief” in its latest filing, continuing the ongoing saga of the 10 1933 Saint-Gaudens gold $20 double eagles that turned up in a Philadelphia family’s safe deposit box in 2003.

    Attorneys for the government filed a brief in federal court on July 1, requesting a rehearing of the April 17 decision of a three-judge panel in the Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit who reversed a July 21, 2011, jury verdict and subsequent order from the District Court that held that the coins were government property.

    Writing, “The family of a thief now stands to benefit in the millions of dollars on the basis of property that belongs to the people of the United States,” the government requests that “title to the stolen pieces be confirmed in their rightful owner, the people of the United States.”

    The Langbord family, who found the coins, are descendants of a Philadelphia coin dealer investigated by the Secret Service in the 1940s for selling additional 1933 double eagles into the marketplace.

    In its conclusion, the government’s brief states, “The Langbords suffered no harm at all, having received exactly the procedural protection they sought — a judicial proceeding in which the government bore the burden of proof.” It warns that by ignoring the jury’s unanimous decision that the coins were stolen from the U.S. Mint, “the Langbords stand poised for a staggering windfall based on their ancestor’s crime, at great harm to the United States.”
    http://www.coinworld.com/insights/g...g-on-decision-in-1933-double-eagle-case.html#
     
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  2. Cigarlover

    Cigarlover Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    I'm a people of the US can I have my share of the coins?
     
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  3. the_shootist

    the_shootist The war is here on our doorstep! Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    Yeah me too...I want mine!!!
     
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  4. Mujahideen

    Mujahideen Black Member Midas Member

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    If the govt really wants to screw these people over, they should mint more 1933 gold coins indistinguishable from the original.

    I bet it would be a hit too.
     
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  5. southfork

    southfork Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    Imagine the thieving government having the nerve to call someone a thief.
     
  6. REO 54

    REO 54 Midas Member Midas Member

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    Exactly. How much $ has our goverment wasted/spent since the last...... whatever. If the goverment was successful would we the people recieve the benifiet? Like, would they put that into SS fund or pay of debts? NOT.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2015
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  7. minimus

    minimus Banned

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    The people are the theif and benefactors, the government is simply the collection agent.

    Want social security pension and health services ?

    Want cheap gasoline and low cost heating fuel ?

    Want cradle to the grave care with a state funeral provided ?

    No ?

    You're out numbered.

    All property belongs to "the people".
     
  8. Usc96

    Usc96 Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    So the government recalled all of its citizen's gold in 1933, then gives title to that U.S. Citizen owned gold to a Private entity known as the Fed, and they have they gall to call someone else a thief? Doctrine of unclean hands.
     
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  9. GOLDBRIX

    GOLDBRIX God,Donald Trump,most in GIM2 I Trust. OTHERS-meh Site Supporter Platinum Bling

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    "It takes one to know one." we use to say as kids. :bash01:
     
  10. GOLDBRIX

    GOLDBRIX God,Donald Trump,most in GIM2 I Trust. OTHERS-meh Site Supporter Platinum Bling

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    1). Except for MURDER there are Statues of Limitation. .gov lost interest in those coins DECADES ago. In business it is called a Write-Off.
    2). We have had Health Services thru the Health Department ( again for decades) . There was no need for OBUMMERCARE, and the enrollment is indicating such.
    2a). SS was raided from dam_ near the very beginning or it would be self-sustaining.
    3). We would have even CHEAPER gasoline and heating fuel by eliminating the Federal Excise Taxes on both.
    4). Only Veterans from Vietnam Area back are the only ones I know ( AND THEY and all Vets DESERVE TOP NOTCH) get cradle to grave care.
    4a). All others either pay of their own, or have insurance for care. Poor will get warehoused. So there is LITTLE cradle to grave care. ( Remember ObummerCare has Death Committees for length of care).
    5). "All property belongs to "the people". " Try going to military Ammo Dump / Igloo. That aint gonna fly.

    .gov is a CONTROLLING Entity, and collects what it DOES NOT want "We the People" to know or learn about.
     
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  11. chomper

    chomper Purveyor of Filth Silver Miner

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    An unfortunate boating accident, in the middle of the Pacific would solve this problem :D
     
  12. Ragnarok

    Ragnarok I'd rather be Midas Member

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    Is there a statute of limitations on this kind of thing?

    R.
     
  13. latemetal

    latemetal Platinum Bling Platinum Bling

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    Defamation lawsuit coming up, I never seen ANY proof these coins were stolen, the man may well have exchanged paper money for gold coins while it was still legal...xxx34
     
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  14. minimus

    minimus Banned

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    I see no evidence that any member of the family redeemed those coins from the 1933 bankruptcy.

    You make multiple complains about statutory law in ignorance just as the people allowed the banking reform act rob them of their gold in 1933.
     
  15. minimus

    minimus Banned

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    They were the property of the fed after the banking reform act - there is no proof anyone redeemed the coins under 12 U.S. Code § 411

    Again, there is no excuse for ignorance of statutory law and redemption of lawful money.
     
  16. Uglytruth

    Uglytruth Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    ‘A high-stakes dispute over ten pieces of gold’: Court reclaims priceless Double Eagle coins for U.S. government


    By Ben Guarino August 2
    [​IMG]
    The front and reverse of the 1933 Saint Gaudens Double Eagle gold coin. (U.S. Mint/AFP)
    When the coins were struck in 1933, the United States Mint must have understood the golden pieces were the last of a dying breed.

    What the minters could not have foreseen was the saga of thievery and legal limbo that would unfold over the next 90 years, centered on 10 of the gold coins that bore Lady Liberty on the front and a soaring eagle on the reverse.

    At the time they were minted, the gold pieces had a face value of $20. Today, the ’33 Double Eagles are estimated to be worth about $10 million a pop. If you can sell them, which, as evidenced by a ruling Monday by the Third U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, Uncle Sam is loath to let happen.

    ADVERTISING
    The last Double Eagle, so named because it was worth twice the $10 coin also inscribed with an eagle, was the result of a meeting between two American icons. At the dawn of the 20th century, Theodore Roosevelt asked renowned sculptor Augustus Saint-Gaudens to design a new Double Eagle gold coin, inspired by the elaborate currencies from Greek antiquity. It would be one of the final projects for the famous artist. Saint-Gaudens died in 1907, the same year the design headed to the United States Mint.

    To Roosevelt, the Saint-Gaudens design was sheer brilliance. In a pose befitting Athena, Lady Liberty strides atop a mountain wielding a torch and tree branch. To the Mint, the intricacies were a numismatic migraine. The coins were incredibly difficult to produce, and did not stack well on their high edges. Roosevelt ordered the presses to move forward anyway.

    “Begin the new issue,” he reportedly said, “even if it takes you one day to strike one piece!”

    Once in public hands, controversy continued to hound the eagles. Roosevelt and Saint-Gaudens decided to omit the “In God We Trust” motto — Roosevelt because he allegedly believed criminals would want to use the coins, which would tarnish God’s name. Saint-Gaudens cited artistic reasons. The public outcry from the godly omission led Congress to demand the motto on all such coins henceforth.

    By 1933, coins made of gold had lost their luster, at least to the newly elected Franklin D. Roosevelt. “We are now off the gold standard,” he told a group of advisers, as UC Davis historian Eric Rauchway recounted at Bloomberg. The United States Mint was ordered to exterminate the Saint-Gaudens coins.

    But Roosevelt could not call the mint off before 445,000 coins had been pressed. As Jay Brahin, a consultant and coin collector told Bloomberg in 2011, the ’33 Double Eagle was something of a “freak.”

    “The coins shouldn’t have been minted, but they were. They weren’t meant to circulate, but some did,” he said. “And why has the government pursued them so arduously? That’s one of the mysteries.”

    Almost all of the 445,000 coins — 15 tons worth of metal — were stuffed into hundreds of canvas bags and locked behind triple steel doors in a Philadelphia vault, according to Bloomberg. By 1937, they had been melted into gold bars destined for Fort Knox. Two of the eagles found sanctuary at the Smithsonian Institution.

    And a handful slipped into the sticky fingers of the American public.

    [Driven by gold and silver prices, thieves target coin collections]

    In 1944, the Secret Service caught wind of the purloined coins after one was successfully sold to Egypt’s King Farouk. The agents determined that a Mint cashier by the name of George McCann had stolen several coins in 1934. A few were traced to a merchant in Philadelphia, one Israel Switt. There, the trail went cold.

    Half a century would pass before the Double Eagles surfaced again.

    First, King Faurok’s coin was sold at auction for a record price in 2002. U.S. government officials objected, but settled on splitting the $7.59 million it fetched between the seller and the Mint.

    And a short time thereafter, Switt’s coins reappeared. Joan S. Langbord, daughter of Switt, said she found 10 Double Eagles in a family safe-deposit box in 2003. Langbord, along with her children Roy and David, notified the Mint of the coins in September 2004. The family gave the coins over to the Secret Service for authentication.

    The Mint did not hand them back.

    “These Double Eagles were never lawfully issued, but instead, were taken from the United States Mint at Philadelphia in an unlawful manner more than 70 years ago,” said David Lebryk, acting director of the Mint, in a 2005 news release. As Reuters noted, Switt’s descendants were “the family of a thief” in the eyes of the government.

    The Langbords sued. According to the Third Circuit ruling, the Mint wrote to the Langbords that, “The United States Mint has no intention of seeking forfeiture of these ten Double Eagles because they are, and always have been, property belonging to the United States; this makes forfeiture proceedings entirely unnecessary.”

    It would spark a legal battle that lasted for more than a decade. The initial 2011 jury ruling favored the Mint. But in 2015, Langbords appeared to score a victory. Because the government had taken so long to respond to the Langbords’ claim — too long, in the view of a Philadelphia federal appeals court — the Double Eagles had to be returned.

    [U.S. government ordered to return very rare gold coins seized from jeweler’s family]

    “The Court’s decision upholds the rule of law and makes clear that the government will be held accountable when it violates the rights of its citizens and the clear mandate of Congress,” the family’s attorney, Barry Berke, emailed The Washington Post at the time.

    The fight over the coins was not over yet. Federal officials, who had been “weighing our options” since 2015, as The Post noted, scored a win in Philadelphia on Monday. In a 9-3 vote, the appeals court ruled in favor of the United States once again.

    The majority opinion begins with promise: “This appeal presents a high-stakes dispute over ten pieces of gold.” But like many legal skirmishes, the most recent argument does not shy away from the esoteric. (Such minutiae as whether or not the 1933 Double Eagles could be defined as coins became a point of contention between the Langbords and the government. The Langbords said yes. The government demurred, as the gold pieces had never been circulated. The judges decided “coins” was okay, simply because coin is easier to parse than “piece of gold.”)

    More crucially, Judge Thomas Hardiman, writing for the majority, concluded in the opinion that the coins had been U.S. property all along. Therefore the 90-day deadline that normally pertains to forfeited items did not apply to the coins — the Langbords could not have forfeited U.S. property, the government argued, only surrendered it.

    In a dissenting opinion, Judge Marjorie Rendell said the majority based its decision “mainly on its buy-in to the Government’s audacity—the Government’s say-so that it owned the 1933 Double Eagles and had no intention of forfeiting them.” The Civil Asset Forfeiture Reform Act was designed to prevent such seizures of civilian property, she said, saying the majority had set an “incorrect and dangerous precedent.”

    For the Double Eagles it seems the the only judicial place left to go is up. “The Langbord family fully intends to seek review by the Supreme Court,” Berke told Reuters on Monday, “of the important issue of the unbridled power of the government to take and keep a citizen’s property.”
     
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  17. southfork

    southfork Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    The court is .gov there is no difference is there.
     
  18. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Apparently they think it takes one to know one?
     
  19. <SLV>

    <SLV> Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    I have a letter from the head attorney at the US Mint explaining to me that I do not own the coins in my pocket; I am merely "entitled to the value they convey."
     
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  20. Argent Dragon

    Argent Dragon Site Support Site Mgr Site Supporter

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    Yup,

    A federal appeals court on Monday said a cache of exceptionally rare gold coins stolen from the U.S. Mint in the 1930s belongs to the U.S. government, not the Pennsylvania family that possessed it for decades.

    By a 9-3 vote, the 3rd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Philadelphia said Joan Langbord and her sons Roy and David cannot keep the 10 "double eagle" 1933 $20 gold pieces, estimated to be worth several million dollars each.


    Monday's decision could end a decade-long battle that began after the Langbords, heirs to late Philadelphia jeweler Israel Switt, found the coins in a safe deposit box and asked the Mint to authenticate them, only to have them seized in 2004.

    "The Langbord family fully intends to seek review by the Supreme Court of the important issue of the unbridled power of the government to take and keep a citizen's property," its lawyer Barry Berke said.

    First Assistant U.S. Attorney Louis Lappen said: "This ruling properly establishes that the United States is the lawful owner of the 1933 Double Eagle gold coins."

    The coins were among 445,500 double eagles struck by the Philadelphia Mint, but never circulated as President Franklin Roosevelt took the United States off the gold standard.

    Most were melted down but some were smuggled out, including one sold to Egypt's King Farouk and later in a 2002 auction for $7.6 million.

    The government said some coins were stolen by the Mint's cashier with help from Switt, the father of Joan Langbord.

    Though Switt was not charged, the government said the Langbords were "the family of a thief" and should not benefit.

    In July 2011, a jury said the government could keep the coins, and in August 2012 the trial judge agreed.

    But in April 2015, a three-judge appeals court panel ruled for the Langbords, saying the government missed a 90-day deadline after they formally claimed the coins to seek a forfeiture under the Civil Asset Forfeiture Reform Act.

    In Monday's decision, however, Circuit Judge Thomas Hardiman said that deadline did not apply, and the government was trying merely to repossess its own property.

    "A seizure alone does not initiate a forfeiture proceeding because it does not implicate a transfer of legal title," he wrote.

    The full appeals court also refused to grant a new trial, saying errors at the 2011 trial were harmless.

    Circuit Judge Marjorie Rendell, who wrote the April 2015 decision, dissented.

    She said the majority rendered CAFRA's protections "largely meaningless" by accepting the government's "say-so" that it owned the Double Eagles and had no intention of forfeiting them.

    The case is Langbord et al v. U.S. Department of the Treasury et al, 3rd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, No. 12-4574.

    Source >> http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-doubleeagle-coins-idUSKCN10C33S
     
  21. GOLDZILLA

    GOLDZILLA Harvurd Koleej Jeenyus Midas Member

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    I still cannot believe they didn't get out of the country with them before selling.
     
  22. michael59

    michael59 heads up-butts down Platinum Bling

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    I inadvertently posted in another thread my reply to this one. While looking for this thread I could not find it, now here it is. This Mandela effect is kicking my donkey I tell you, surely is as now I can't find that one.

    Or I have a bad case of CRS....because I found it....

    The limitation statute only works if the state don't know who took the coins. As the never alive fiction can never die and had deduced who deprived it of its property then essentially it has the right to pursue the original claim against the estate of the thief.

    Now.....where in the hell does the state have the right to claim it is acting in behalf of "we the people?"

    I'm thinking of filing a defamation of character suit.....man oh man the idiocy of the STATE....humpf we the people.....HAHA....The limitation statute only works if the state don't know who took the coins. As the never alive fiction can never die and had deduced who deprived it of its property then essentially it has the right to pursue the original claim against the estate of the thief.

    Now.....where in the hell does the state have the right to claim it is acting in behalf of "we the people?"

    I'm thinking of filing a defamation of character suit.....man oh man the idiocy of the STATE....humpf we the people.....HAHA....
     
  23. michael59

    michael59 heads up-butts down Platinum Bling

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    Edit to the above post.....don't ask because even I don't know what happened.
     
  24. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    The only problem with that line of reason is a little thing called, presumption of innocence until proven guilty. Uncle sugar has failed to do that. Therefore they can't really say they are pursuing a claim against the family of a thief.


    Personally speaking, I can't believe the people who found 'em were so naive as to turn them over to the gov for authentication. I mean, if they were fakes the gov obviously wouldn't give them back and if they were real they should have known they certainly wouldn't give them back. It doesn't take much research to deduce that them there coins aren't supposed to even exist.
    ...and the sad thing is that if the gov gets to keep them, they'll prolly melt 'em down. What a shame that would be.
     
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  25. michael59

    michael59 heads up-butts down Platinum Bling

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    Need I say more?
     
  26. michael59

    michael59 heads up-butts down Platinum Bling

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    And remember this.... an estate is a thing and in court a judge determines what things are .... So the fiction controls a fiction because the living being cannot defend itself due to death, after death one's name becomes an estate. A estate is a thing.
     
  27. Argent Dragon

    Argent Dragon Site Support Site Mgr Site Supporter

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    The US .Gov (the state) is defined as a corporation so there's no representation for acting on behalf of anyone including the people.

    The whole "we the people" mantra is a façade.
     
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  28. michael59

    michael59 heads up-butts down Platinum Bling

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    Yep, you got that right and this corporation is made up of fictional characters called person......So no humanity in the people exists in it....
     
  29. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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    GOLDBRIX and Son of Gloin like this.
  30. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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  31. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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  32. edsl48

    edsl48 Silver Member Silver Miner

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    That is exactly what the Government did with a stamp in 1962

    [​IMG]

    The Dag Hammarskjöld invert is a 4 cent value postage stamp error issued on 23 October 1962 by the United States Postal Service (then known as the Post Office Department) one year after the death of Dag Hammarskjöld, Secretary-General of the United Nations, in an airplane crash. The stamp, showing the yellow background inverted relative to the image and text, is also known as the Day's Folly after Postmaster General J. Edward Day who ordered the intentional reprinting of the yellow invert commenting, "The Post Office Department is not running a jackpot operation."

    The stamp reprint was in effect a deliberate error produced by the Post Office Department to avoid creating a rarity. It was decided to reprint 40 million of the inverted stamps after the discovery of the error so there would be no rarity factor in the inverted stamp and to prevent people profiting from the Postal Service's mistake.[1] The reprints were issued to the public on 16 November and described as a Special Printing.[2]

    The black, brown and yellow commemorative stamp with yellow background correctly printed has a Scott catalogue number of 1203 but the inverted error is numbered 1204. The catalogue value of the invert is worth little more than the normal. The stamp, printed on Giori press in plates of 200, was designed by Herbert Sanborn and engraved by C. A. Brooks. 121,440,000 normal stamps were printed and 40,270,000 of the inverted reprint were produced.[3]
     
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  33. GOLDBRIX

    GOLDBRIX God,Donald Trump,most in GIM2 I Trust. OTHERS-meh Site Supporter Platinum Bling

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    Family does not even get melt value. Shame, Shame
     
  34. Buck

    Buck Fabian Society Gold Chaser

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    I'm living by the ideology that if it says any variant of United States of America, it'll be subject to recall at any time
     
  35. Bottom Feeder

    Bottom Feeder Hypophthalmichthys molitrix Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    I don’t know what everyone’s whining about. Indisputably the 1933 coins were stolen property. Take, for instance, you buy a stolen gun. The cops see it. Do you get to keep it? Or are you compensated for it when they return it to the rightful owner? (no snide remarks about the cops returning a gun to the rightful owner now).

    It don’t matter who stole the coins. They don’t belong to the people who possess them.

    BF
     
  36. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Yep, that's pretty much it. I can't imagine how they ever thought it wouldn't end up like this. The simple fact that no '33 double eagles were released for circulation says that they must have been taken out of the mint under less than legal means.

    If I had found those and a quick google search told me that none were ever released for circulation, I'd have taken a hammer to them until the dates were illegible and sold them for scrap. Would've been money for nothin' for them, but they wanted to get the big payday and thought uncle sugar would just let them reap the windfall. Not!
    Now they're just out.


    Edited to add:....and this may be a dumb question, but why are they called Double Eagles? There's only one Eagle on it that I see. Or am I not seeing it right? Wouldn't be the first time, from time to time I don't get the memo. lol
     
  37. Bottom Feeder

    Bottom Feeder Hypophthalmichthys molitrix Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    Eagles were $10 gold pieces

    BF
     
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