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PCGS SLABS TONING!

Discussion in 'PM's - Coins - Numis - Base Metals' started by michael, Jan 11, 2012.



  1. michael

    michael New Member

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    A few weeks back I asked some questions on this site as to why I had a couple PCGS coins that are toning very rapidly. This has never happened to any of my NGC coins. So I did a little digging and I have seen and heard many complaints about the PCGS holders not being airtight. I understand PCGS grades tougher than NGC and therefore commands higher prices in the secondary market especially First Strike labels. This seems like a major problem and I havnt seen it discussed on this board. I dont know if I should continue to hoard my PCGS coins out of fear more of my coins will tone and ruin my collection. Should I be selling them now? I am fairly new to collecting and this really threw a wrench in my plan to hold my PCGS for the long term and eventually pass them to my children. Seems to me this topic should be more widely discussed if rare and valuable coins have the potential to change color completely. Its surprising that they would command such a high premium with this issue at hand. I havnt heard of this problem with NGC. Like I said I am fairly new to this game and would appreciate if anyone can offer insight. I would be happy to discuss this further with anyone who has an interest.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2012
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  2. Ragnarok

    Ragnarok I'd rather be Midas Member

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    Does your coin grading service guarantee the coins against toning in the slab, or the slabs to be airtight? If the slab is airtight then the toning is being caused by something in the substance of the slab and the coin(s) should be reslabbed by the grader in a proper material imo.

    If the slab is not airtight and is not made of a substance that would cause the coins to tone, you might consider asking the grader to re-slab it anyway, or look further for what is in the local atmosphere that could get into the slabs and cause those coins to tone (hydrogen sulfide, sulfur dioxide, chlorine, etc). You may have to put the whole assembly in an airtight container not made of a substance that would cause the coins to tone, and with minimum free space. Inert gas fill is also an option if you have the means.

    Not all toning is bad. Beautifully toned coins can sometimes be worth more than their untoned counterparts depending on the buyer.

    Just my 2c; please ask an expert.
    R.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2012
  3. michael

    michael New Member

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    The only grading company I have this problem with is PCGS. I have no way of knowing if the slab is airtight or not. I will call them and see what they say about my problem. Thanks for the information. much appreciated.
     
  4. Ragnarok

    Ragnarok I'd rather be Midas Member

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    Well, one could put the slab in a jar of water and look/wait for air bubbles, if one really needed to, I guess, but good luck getting the water back out!

    R.
     
  5. Buck

    Buck Fabian Society Gold Chaser

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    There was a post I read, a while back, where a guy took a certified coin into the bathtub with him (it fell in...whatever...).
    To dry it out he put it into an oven and when he took it out, the slab and coin were in one big blob.
    I suppose his method removed the water...

    If the slab is not sealed tighter than a frogs behind, it is not air tight:flute:
     
  6. Solo

    Solo Midas Member Midas Member

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    Michael I would be VERY INTERESTED in hearing what they tell you. It's interesting you started this thread as this subject has occupied a fair amount of my thoughts of late (yes I am addicted to modern gold :p). I even discussed this with Eric Jordan at the FUN show at length. At some point I intend on starting a thread on this on the pcgs forums about this to watch the fur fly, but I'm not ready to be banned, again, quite yet ;) :p. Here's what I know:

    FACT: PCGS slabs do NOT seem to play well with American gold eagles. At the FUN show this year there was a seller with both a burnished 1/10th 2006 age and the regular age, both in pcgs 70 slabs. The two coins had *wild* multicolor toning, which should be very rare on gold, and the seller was asking a $750 for the pair (which is a premium price due to toning). I have seen similar wild toning one other time on the pcgs forums and it too was on a 1/10th age. Here's the kicker though... Upon looking at hundreds of different dealer booths I noticed that at least one in three pcgs 1/10th burnished gold eagles displayed some amount of toning :eek:. The 2006 examples seemed to have the most, but I did notice a small amount of toning on a 2007 as well.

    Furthermore when you search AGE's on eBay many PCGS sellers now notate, "No haze" or "No toning". I rarely see NGC/Anacs/ICG slabs with such a disclaimer so that tells me others have noticed the pcgs issue as well. I plan on buying a toned example at the next show and cracking it out to see if a simple acetone bath removes it. Right now my best guess is that either the paper grade insert or gasket is off-gassing and it's reacting with the surface of the coin. This is not an issue of the slab being sealed or not IMO as I never see raw toned age's so it's not something in the air. I have a few more thoughts on the matter, but I need to see more coins and start an excel sheet to see if I can determine any trends before I say more. While normally toning on gold is highly prized, at some point I feel that collectors are going to recognize this type of toning as environmental damage and not toning.

    If anyone else has started research on this subject, or knows of threads about this on other forums, please post the information here or PM me as this is a serious issue in my eyes.

    @Michael, can you please post pics if you have them or share more about the coins you're speaking of?
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2012
  7. michael

    michael New Member

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    I have not noticed any toning on my gold eagles but I have some crazy toning on many First Spouse mainly from 2007-2008. I was also speaking to another big guy out of New York and he said he only keeps NGC slabs for long term investment purposes and always sells or trades the PCGS because they command the higher premium and they tone as time goes on. I poseted pictures of a couple first spouse coins I have with toning a few weeks ago but didnt get too many responses. I will bump that thread to the top. I took a ton of pictures to try to capture the toning the best I could. It is very dramatic dark orangey in color. It actually looks really nice if its just one coin out of a collection however I now have it on 3 coins and i fear it is becoming more common.
     
  8. Solo

    Solo Midas Member Midas Member

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    Here is the image Michael uploaded of his spouse coins:
    tonedElizabethMonroe.jpg

    The Monroe has clearly darkened quite a bit and is consistent with what I've seen. The coins I studied this past weekend were all typically darker than the norm with the toning varying from dark to light from the rim to center of the coin. It seems that as the toning deepens it also becomes blotchy as well with shades of purple and probably hints of other colors that I can not see (I'm very colorblind unfortunately). Granted it makes the coins look great once the toning is deep enough, but this is NOT natural and therefore not desirable IMO.

    Come to think of it Michael it was your spouse post last month that caused me to start looking for pcgs toning. After looking at close to dozen or more pcgs AGEs at the show over the weekend it was clear to me this is a MAJOR problem. Unfortunately the fact even the spouse coins tone means that it's not just the Au/Cu alloy of the AGEs that has a problem. I bet the issue may be similar to the milk spot issue. The general consensus is that milk spots develop on ASEs due to the manufacturing process. At some point the planchets are rinsed and it's believed that wherever any of the solution remains that is the are that will probably develop the dreaded milk spot in the future. I wonder if the US mint does something similar with gold planchets. It's possible that the off-gassing inside the pcgs slab is simply interacting with trace amounts of some type of rinse still on the surface of the coin. I just don't know for certain.

    What we do know for certain is that it's not just 22kt US gold, but also 24k US gold. The next logical question to ask is do other gold coins from different mints also display similar toning. Like I said I need to do a lot more research on this, but for starters if anyone has seen any modern toned gold coins than they should post about them here.
     
  9. michael

    michael New Member

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    I also have a 1995(i think mayber 1996) Torchrunner gold commem graded by PCGS MS69 in which the coin is toned it is much darker than my other Unc. coins
     
  10. rodzm

    rodzm Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Well FWIW here is a half sovereign from Isle of Man that developed some toning. Not sure if it was before or after slabbing but its toned in a PCGS holder nonetheless. Maybe it happened before, maybe after.
     

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  11. 1380gu

    1380gu New Member

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    This coin toned well after being slabbed. It looks great in person though. Much better than the photo my iPhone could do.

    IMG_0418.jpg
     
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  12. pianogold

    pianogold New Member

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    I dont believe any of the TPGs state their slabs are airtight?

    Also, there's plenty of chance for coins to be affected before slabbing that would cause them to tone later...
     
  13. Irons

    Irons Deep Sixed Site Supporter Mother Lode

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    This whole slabbed coin fad isn't going to end well, IMO.

    Luck to you all!
     
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  14. Solo

    Solo Midas Member Midas Member

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    In case anyone here hasn't been to a major show and seen pcgs slab toning in person, here, have a look at these :eek::

    99w_toned.JPG 99w_toned2.JPG 5gold1988olympiad.jpg 2008w_tenthEagleToned.jpg 120811c.JPG Consignments42160.jpg Consignments42152.jpg Consignments42077.jpg Consignments42081.jpg
     
  15. HistoryStudent

    HistoryStudent Midas Member Midas Member

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    THIS SUCKS!

    You aught a see my Wright Bros. MS70 - simply awful!
     
  16. Solo

    Solo Midas Member Midas Member

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    HS take a pic and upload it please. If the pic is too big, e-mail it to me and I'll crop/resize it for you :).
     
  17. Kingfisher

    Kingfisher Silver Member Silver Miner

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    I am not a collector and this is another con, IMO. The toning added value thing strikes me as another version of the Emperor's New Clothes.
     
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  18. HistoryStudent

    HistoryStudent Midas Member Midas Member

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    Take your PICK guess who is the WORST!

    Same EXACT coin same exact grade BUT one FUBAR has a LEAKY slab. (Hint Company begins with a "P" for PHUCKED)

    Toning is really UGLY!
     

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  19. HistoryStudent

    HistoryStudent Midas Member Midas Member

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    PIA but I did it for you. That lake is so deep. And the metal detector got lucky. ~ HS
     
  20. newmisty

    newmisty Duppy Conqueror Midas Member

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    I had a Jamestown twice as bad as that (69 though). Same edge toning too. Looked almost exactly like that but much worse. Got rid of it for a bit over spot after fees.
     
  21. EO 11110

    EO 11110 He Hate Me Mother Lode

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    i have the same issue on my pcgs bu 1995 torch runner $5 gold

    it is attractive toning (so far)

    i'm an ngc guy mostly...but when i can get a good deal i'll take pcgs too
     
  22. badhop55

    badhop55 Silver Member Silver Miner

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    Has anyone seen/had any problems with their 5 oz ATBs? I've check mine (both TPGs) and raw and see no problems. If it comes back that these are not having problems then I would have to wonder why some products and not others?
     
  23. Solo

    Solo Midas Member Midas Member

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    I have slabbed ATBs from both NGC and PCGS and will have to give them a look at some point soon. I know when I was inspecting a few P pucks last month roughly 1 in 3 raw coins had developed milk spots already.
     
  24. Mr Paradise

    Mr Paradise Midas Member Midas Member

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    Reminds me of the star wars guys that spend big bucks having their old action figures still on the card graded by AFA. Five years later the bubbles yellow and your stuck with a slabbed piece of junk.
     
  25. southfork

    southfork Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    Wouldnt they have to have a vacum in order not to tone? Could be they switched their plastic material or maybe a Chicom fake.
     
  26. Irons

    Irons Deep Sixed Site Supporter Mother Lode

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    DING DING DING!!!!
     
  27. HistoryStudent

    HistoryStudent Midas Member Midas Member

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    I think they eat too much Mexican Food (beans and tortillas) in Irvine/Newport Beach (PCGS) and the GAS gets into the (lunch time) slabs.

    :36_11_6::36_11_6::36_11_6:

    Ding Ding Ding is a train stopper. We once had an employee that was a Ding Ding Ding who complained she was late for
    work because a TRAIN stopped her on the Santa Ana Freeway coming to work. Only problem is that there never are any trains crossing any freeways
    in So. Cal.

    HA HA HA
     
  28. macrohedge

    macrohedge New Member

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  29. badhop55

    badhop55 Silver Member Silver Miner

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    Looked at my 2010 5 oz ATB sets, 4 raw, 4 PCGS slabbed. 2 of the raw coins each had one small spot. None of the slabbed showed any spotting.
     
  30. SirOzzyyzzO

    SirOzzyyzzO Seeker Seeker

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    Hello All and Merry Christmas to you all, as well - your families too,

    Some of you know, I suffered a lot due to Hurricane Sandy. At this present moment, I have 37 coins at NGC "Scheduled For Grading", that first went to NCS to be conserved.

    First, I want and feel the need to say, NCS called me upon inspection of my coins and offered me their condolences, because I described why they were wet and some turning green. Then, the gentleman on the phone said something like, I am not sure we can guarantee you any of the same grades, however, we are going to do our best, and we will extend to you the lowest conservation fee across the board and the same for the slab fees. I sent them some nicely graded coins and some highly sought after ones too... I heard the sadness in his voice... ANYWAY, I thought that was a beautiful & kind gesture - they didn't have to do that! I've only ever had great experiences with NCS or now NGC's conservation service. When I was down in Sarasota NCS was not officially part of NGC, and I am glad they partnered up. Again, my hat is off to them...

    However, and mostly pertaining to the theme of this thread, ALL the coins sent to them were either PCGS or NGC coins - nothing raw or any other third grade service, and ALL that were sent in had gotten wet inside! Initially, some of the PCGS coins appeared to be perfectly OK the first few days, but what I, initially, missed was that the blue paper, where the grade is printed on itself, was actually saturated on each and every PCGS coin that was partially submerged. I didn't notice that until I had time to inspect them all and closer. At first, I even thought they were perfectly fine! As for the NGC coins that were partially submerged, also - it was hit or miss, but the ones that were wet, were wet all over the coin and especially the stuff that surrounds the coin inside the holder (The white part)... FWIW, all of these coins were coins in a box, atop of my 6ft. shelf, that gave way once the level got too high in my basement and jostled everything around and toppled things. This box was half in the water by the time I retrieved it, so it may have been fully submerged at one point, because I didn't get to it until some water had receded already.

    Third, I had 80 1996 PCGS MS68 and or MS67 SAE coins that I submitted back in 2005. Some assorted Pandas and other foreign NGC slabbed silver coins - believe it or not, some MS-66/67 Kennedy halves too - all sitting on the floor in my boiler room, in a safe, before the storm, so ultimately they were ground level and sitting in Salt water the longest, ALL COMPLETELY CORRODED & PITTED by the time I got to them. In addition, the salt water ate away at the holograms on their backs. I was holding them there, not occupying precious bank vault space where my better coins were/are, because these were mostly all crud numismatic coins that I took chances on years ago & was hoping to hold and make my slab fees back on when silver rose to $60/$70 one day... Now, I am twice as Ph-Uh-K'd with them... I cannot even keep and or sell them in their holders because the holograms are gone, makes them look like BOGUS slabbed, non-collectable, green pitted silver dollars!

    Moreover, aside from a few other things, I think my Hurricane lesson/experiment using both NGC & PCGS slabs as water and or air-tight Guinea pigs seems to have proven that they in-deed are not all waterproof - lol - So, does that make them Not Air Tight too I dare to guess???? I have yet to get to my bank vault, because the bank was hit hard and is still closed... Yet, I think I may be lucky since my boxes are chest level. But, they have yet to call me and I just think that is bad business on their part, but - nobody expected this amount of damage/carnage. So, I am sweating it out day by day to find out if those PCGS and NGC slabs shielded them or not???? I wish PCGS and or NGC made an airtight or water tight guarantee, but they don't cause they ain't, but, then again, this is not a perfect world... Lastly, I ran a small coin business from my basement. I lost all my empty OGPing, all my empty UHR boxes, all my pennies, all my 2009 silver proof sets... On and on, and, my biggest client called the day before the storm and asked what I had, so that is why I even had more coins then usual there... FWIW - I have two German Shepherds and one Shotgun that all resided down there until the Bitch sandy came along...

    Just as a side note, regarding the pics posted within this thread, I've always thought that toning on PCGS GAE's is a gorgeous aspect of them! It breathes life into a monotonous looking series. However, that is simply my opinion and I'd tell ya I hate toning if I were trying to buy it from ya... lol Good night all and, again, Merry Christmas!
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2012
  31. lightcycler

    lightcycler Silver Member Silver Miner

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    At this point I have lots of slabbed coins and no toning because I"m too afraid too look. I do know that I bought 5 SSB gold uncircs and sent straight to PCGS without opening the box. I still have 3 of the 5 and all are toning rapidly. This whole deal has caused me to be out of buying anything new to slab. As I can I plan to get as much as I can to bullion asap. Good thing is much of my collection even slabbed was bought close to spot. Not much downside there. The only exception is the 6 sets of PCGS MS 70 2011 25th silver sets. I have never opened the box I got them in from a guy on the PCGS forums. There will come a day when I have to look lol.
     
  32. HistoryStudent

    HistoryStudent Midas Member Midas Member

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    Best wishes to you that it all works out all right in the long run.

    You sure taught me a thing or two - YOU DID.

    GOD Bless you for a quick solution.


    ~ HS
     
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  33. SirOzzyyzzO

    SirOzzyyzzO Seeker Seeker

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    Thanks HS. You know I like and appreciate you... And, like you, I would like others to learn by offering up my coin-experiences, yet not all my coin tricks, a few have to remain unto myself. And, anyone that read my post, I am thoroughly embarrassed. Never saw this coming...

    It really hurt giving up my Three PCGS, First Strike, MS69 PL's and my several 70's 25th anniversary SAE's... I lost the 1st strike designations for sure... and I am dying to know if I lost the PL designations on the UHR's, too... Yet, one of them was significantly dryer than the others... Imagine that crossed as a 70, after the conservation???? lololol............... In the end, I'll be happy with any NGC grade and other than one with a Details in it's description... But, I am sure two of them will... But, what was I really to do?

    I am sorry to say, I will not post my UHR grades - you can interpret that anyway you'd like, but it's simply personal. However, there are a select few that I would/will tell if they PM me - I mean no disrespect to anyone. It's just my opinion that, sometimes, long-term membership counts and pays off when you are down and out.

    But, really, since this happened... I am eager to think/wonder if we - the consumers - push for a slab that is guaranteed water/air-proof - of course it would cost more, but really, it would offer a great deal of peace of mind... As in my case, maybe they say, OK we give you back x amount of numismatic value, since we guaranteed it to be water tight, yet that might open them up to people trying to sabotage coins that loose numismatic value, yet if the slab and guarantee cost more initially, maybe that wouldn't matter... The extra insurance, in my opinion matters... Like, I should have had flood insurance, yet like everyone else near and around me, nooooo I/we don't need it - nothing is ever gonna happen here - to us... Get Flood Insurance - wherever you are... It's worth the $500 bucks a year... And, PCGS and NGC create a slab that is air/water proof - I will pay the extra fee for a coin that is worthwhile to keep, protect, and savor... It would prove and end the tone debate... If a coin toned in an airtight holder - means they are either compromised and/or it's a natural process... It would somehow force an answer to the age old question/concern, and help me keep my MS70 First Strike PL designation... My PCGS MS70 PL 1st Strike UHR is the one coin I am most concerned about that is in my bank vault... What do I do if that is swamped like my other coins... Return it to PCGS? I mean, I think I just got an e-mail from PCGS regarding a cleaning service they offer, but haven't had time to follow-up on it and if it had an air/water tight guarantee, then maybe I could at least re-coupe some numismatic value, but then I guess PCGS would be more like an insurance company at that point... Again, personally, I like a toned coin - no matter what it is. But, I would love to know why my PCGS slabbed coins turn that gorgeous wet orange more so than my similarly slabbed NGC coins...
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2012
  34. southfork

    southfork Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    Stopped by the Lcs today and he got in a few of the commerative gold coins pictured above, they exibit definitive toning and discoloration and they are not in slabs, perhaps the mint started using tungsten in gold coins long before our chicom friends.
     
  35. Gcubed

    Gcubed Banned

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    I wonder if the other metals in the alloy have anything to do with this? :boring:
     
  36. southfork

    southfork Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    Killjoy, always someone trying to kill a good conspiracy theory.
     
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  37. Gcubed

    Gcubed Banned

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    Someone has to keep ya all kinda honest! :cheerful:
     
  38. steve1942

    steve1942 New Member

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    Just bought a MS69 PCGS Civil War, uncirculated. It is extremelu toned, medium dark around rim on the obverse. I actually like toned coins, this one is quite attractive. One thing that toning does, though, is accenuate some of the defects. This one has found a scrach in the field and it now shows up with the naked eye. If the rest of the toning wasn't so attractive, I'd return it. However, it is one of the nicest $5 gold coins I own, I hope it continues to darken. This is a case where the scratch will lose me some money down the road but it's a lose I'll accept because it's so darned nice. If I live long enough, it may even increase in value if the toning patterns make it attractive to those of us that like these coins. Same with silver. I can't believe anyone would prefer a bright white to a rainbow. We all have our tastes, I guess.
     
  39. Dude

    Dude Midas Member Midas Member

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    I did a little research because I just had an idea about averting Ozzy's situation....my foodsaver sealer.
    Seems some do it. Nobody seems to say if PVC is involved or not.
    Any thoughts or experiences from anyone?
    ...and so sorry Ozzy...it really sucks when you lose 1K, 10K, 100K...I've felt it myself.
     
    SirOzzyyzzO likes this.
  40. tradeshack

    tradeshack Seeker Seeker

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    I've used the Food Saver products for shipping, but not long-term storage. The material is hard and brittle compared to vinyl so my guess is that it doesn't decompose as quickly, but I don't know. I did have one bad experience when I shipped 4 PCGS slabbed ASE's in a vacuum. The contraction was too tight and caused two of the slabs to crush each other during their travel. Fortunately the coins were common and I could satisfy the buyer with a monetary adjustment. The risk can be eliminated with better padding between slabs.

    I also would consider that the bags often do leak over time. If the storage is in a polluted environment then contaminates would be sucked in as the vacuum is released. Since Ozzy's experience was a short-term condition, I think a vacuum seal could have served him extremely well.
     

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