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post from the enemy camp:

Discussion in 'Firearms' started by Scorpio, Jun 15, 2016.



  1. Scorpio

    Scorpio Скорпион Founding Member Board Elder Site Mgr Site Supporter ++

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    Opinion: What America’s gun fanatics won’t tell you
    By Brett Arends
    Published: June 14, 2016 10:50 a.m. ET



    The Second Amendment doesn’t give you the right to own a gun


    [​IMG]


    Alexander Hamilton said a “well-regulated militia” would help safeguard the freedom of the new republic because it would make the creation of a professional, mercenary army “unnecessary.”
    Can we please stop pretending that the Second Amendment contains an unfettered right for everyone to buy a gun? It doesn’t, and it never has. The claims made by the small number of extremists, before and after the Orlando, Fla., massacre, are based on a deliberate lie.

    The Second Amendment of the U.S. Constitution doesn’t just say Congress shall not infringe the right to “keep and bear arms.” It specifically says that right exists in order to maintain “a well-regulated militia.” Even the late conservative Supreme Court Associate Justice Antonin Scalia admitted those words weren’t in there by accident. Oh, and the Constitution doesn’t just say a “militia.” It says a “well-regulated” militia.

    What did the Founding Fathers mean by that? We don’t have to guess because they told us. In Federalist No. 29 of the Federalist Papers, Alexander Hamilton explained at great length precisely what a “well-regulated militia” was, why the Founding Fathers thought we needed one, and why they wanted to protect it from being disarmed by the federal government.

    The Second Amendment is an instrument of government. It’s not about hunting or gun collecting or carrying your pistol into the saloon.

    And there’s a reason absolutely no gun extremist will ever direct you to that 1788 essay because it blows their baloney into a million pieces.

    A “well-regulated militia” didn’t mean guys who read Soldier of Fortune magazine running around in the woods with AK-47s and warpaint on their faces. It basically meant what today we call the National Guard.

    It should be a properly constituted, ordered and drilled (“well-regulated”) military force, organized state by state, explained Hamilton. Each state militia should be a “select corps,” “well-trained” and able to perform all the “operations of an army.” The militia needed “uniformity in … organization and discipline,” wrote Hamilton, so that it could operate like a proper army “in camp and field,” and so that it could gain the “essential … degree of proficiency in military functions.” And although it was organized state by state, it needed to be under the explicit control of the national government. The “well-regulated militia” was under the command of the president. It was “the military arm” of the government.

    The one big difference between this militia and a professional army? It shouldn’t be made up of full-time professional soldiers, said the Founding Fathers. Such soldiers could be used against the people as King George had used his mercenary Redcoats. Instead, the American republic should make up its military force from part-time volunteers drawn from regular citizens. Such men would be less likely to turn on the population.

    And the creation of this “well-regulated militia,” aka the National Guard, would help safeguard the freedom of the new republic because it would make the creation of a professional, mercenary army “unnecessary,” wrote Hamilton. “This appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army, and the best possible security against it,” he wrote.

    That was the point. And that was why they wanted to make sure it couldn’t be disarmed by the federal government: So a future “tyrant” couldn’t disarm the National Guard, and then use a mercenary army to impose martial law.


    0:00 / 0:00
    Deadliest American mass shootings
    (1:57)
    The Founding Fathers didn’t call the republic’s new force an “army” because that term more than two centuries ago called to mind the British army, foreign mercenaries, tyrants and kings. So they said “militia” instead. But they meant a real body. Hamilton was scathing about the idea that the “militia” could just mean every Bob, Billy and Benjamin with his musket. Such amateurs would stand no chance in modern warfare against professionals, he wrote. And requiring every citizen to become a professional would be ridiculous, he said. It would be “a real grievance to the people, and a serious public inconvenience and loss,” he wrote. Taking people away from their work in order to train them “would form an annual deduction from the productive labor of the country.”


    The Second Amendment is an instrument of government. It’s not about hunting or gun collecting or carrying your pistol into the saloon. The Founding Fathers left it up to us to pass sensible laws about all these things. The Constitution is about government.

    Today we have a professional army, anyway. Military matters have become so complex that no part-time soldiers could do it all. So you could argue that makes the Second Amendment null and void, like the parts in the Constitution about slaves and Indians being counted as “three-fifths” of a person in the Census.

    But even if you still want to defend the Second Amendment, it should apply only to those who volunteer to join the “select corps” of their National Guard, undergo rigorous training to attain “proficiency in military functions” and perform the “operations of an army,” serve as ordered under the ultimate command of the president and be subject to military discipline.

    So if you’re running around waving your AK-47 under the Second Amendment, and you haven’t shown up yet at your local National Guard headquarters, you’re not a “patriot.” You’re a deserter.

    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/what-americas-gun-fanatics-wont-tell-you-2016-06-14?link=MW_popular
     
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  2. the_shootist

    the_shootist I self identify as a black '69 Camaro Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    Come and get them!
     
  3. Unca Walt

    Unca Walt Midas Member Midas Member

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    Meh.

    The guy has no guns, right? (*snork*)
     
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  4. Ragnarok

    Ragnarok I'd rather be Midas Member

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    A well regulated militia would also be one that could be called up on a moment's notice, which requires an armed populace, hence the right applies to the people, not the militia.

    R.
     
  5. AG Stacker

    AG Stacker Silver Member Silver Miner

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    Meh. Just another useless idiot that would tremble in his berkenstocks if he found a spent .22 cartridge on the ground.

    Still waiting for one of these pansies to explain the last 4 words in a concise manner.
     
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  6. Alton

    Alton Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Time for all the phuktards to creep out of the woodwork and display their insanity. Now that they've bloviated they'll slink back into the woodwork and fume some more as normal people get on living their lives. Really need a BIG can of Raid for these creepy crawlers...
     
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  7. the_shootist

    the_shootist I self identify as a black '69 Camaro Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    In the end there will be a crowd hunting down gun owners and a crowd of gun owners shooting back...it's inevitable.

    This isn't Australia
    This isn't the UK
    This isn't Germany


    >300 million firearms in the hands of free Americans says so
     
  8. dozer99

    dozer99 Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    This guy needs to go back to school, and re-read some history.

    The National Guard is not a "well regulated Militia". Nor is it a State Militia anymore. The tug-o-war between the Federal Government and the States for who controls the National Guard all but ended around 2003. How can a States "Guard" be controlled by the National Guard Bureau with orders coming down from the Federal level and still be a State controlled "Guard". The Governors are still allowed some control and usage of the States Guard to maintain the appearance of a "State Militia" but it is really a Reserve of the U.S. Army and Air Force. Everything at the top level of the States National Guard is controlled at the National level, even the promotions, So State officers are beholden to the Feds.

    If anyone for a moment thinks that their States National Guard as a whole will stand against the Federal Troops (read: any federal agency or Active duty component of the armed forces) they are sadly mistaken. Many Guardsmen will desert to stand with their statesmen but there are contingency's for this at the federal level. Some of the more Conservative States will have more desertions then the liberal states will. This is why one States Guard is deployed to another state in a Major crisis. ie.. Katrina, Sandy, this list goes on.
     
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  9. Unca Walt

    Unca Walt Midas Member Midas Member

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    Shit. I din' know this, dozer.

    That sucks.

    HEY. WAITAMINNIT --

    May I humbly point out that in SE Asia games, we had to do the Robin Williams routine:

    CIA Guy: When we see someone, we walk up to them and say, "Are you the en-enemy?"

    If they say, 'Yes.', then we shoot them.

    It worked for 'the enemy' purty dang good, I say.
     
  10. Eyebone

    Eyebone Midas Member Midas Member

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    Hooey.
     
  11. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    The part he's leaving out is that the Right in question that is not to be infringed, is that of the People.

    It says right there whose Right it is.
    "....the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    They're the same "People" as mentioned in the Preamble.
    "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union,..."

     
  12. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    The thing the anti-gunners don't get is that our Right to keep and bear arms doesn't really stem from the 2nd Amendment at all. In fact, you could erase it from the Constitution with no ill effect or change to your Rights on guns or anything else.

    The Bill of Rights simply spelled out and formally declared the Rights that are already apparent with a proper reading of the Constitution itself.
     
  13. Uglytruth

    Uglytruth Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    The "thing" they will not talk about is it's the people's right to simply shoot their asses. No lawyers, no trials, no rope, no arguing, simply put an end to the problem. Let me be clear " THEY ARE THE PROBLEM".
     
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  14. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    If I could have one wish, it would be that from the very beginning, the American people would be and have been as vigilant and un-yielding on their Rights as secured via the Constitution in 1791 as the Muslims are unyielding on anything they even perceive as an afront to their religion.
    It's only because the People EVER yielded that the door becomes opened to all manner of Rights reduction.

    On a Federal level, had the People not gone for the National Firearms Act of 1938 and allowed the slippery slide to begin, we might not be at this point where half the nation is pushing for an all-out ban.
    ...and the reason they went for it was because of the bloodshed prohibition brought.

    If everyone had just STFU and minded their own damn business, none of that stuff would have ever happened. If you'll buy one excuse to limit/remove someone else's Right(s), don't be surprised when they remove some of yours and we all end up Right-less.
     
  15. Drooling Idiot

    Drooling Idiot New Member

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    " Little more can reasonably be aimed at, with respect to the people at large, than to have them properly armed and equipped; and in order to see that this be not neglected, it will be necessary to assemble them once or twice in the course of a year." - Alexander Hamilton / Federalist No. 29

    Seems Brett over looked some of the words in his rush to push his propaganda.

     
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  16. nickndfl

    nickndfl Midas Member Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/gun-quotations-founding-fathers


    "The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
    - Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776
     
  17. Stinger

    Stinger New Member

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    Why is everyone so upset? Alexander Hamilton was married to the sister of one of the wealthiest British bankers in America; and he had a strong personal interest in maintaining that wealth. It took over 100 years; but Hamilton - who was always highly publicity conscious and a real, 'sympathy hound' - is now known to have attempted to cheat and set Arron Burr up to be (in effect) murdered during their famous 1804 duel.

    Hamilton brought the pistols to the field-of-honor; but he deliberately neglected to tell Burr how the horrific 14 - 15 lb triggers could be preset to fire with only 2 or 3 lb of pressure. He knew; but Burr didn't!

    Neither does it matter what Alexander Hamilton thought about the Second Amendment - It doesn't matter! His opinion is NOT the opinion of this nation's Founding Fathers. There are numerous historical documents that show our Founding Fathers did NOT agree with Hamilton's stated opinion. Hamilton was also extremely disliked by none other than Thomas Jefferson, himself! Jefferson, and Hamilton only rarely agreed about anything.

    FRANKLY, I DON'T GIVE A DAMN WHAT ALEXANDER HAMILTON THOUGHT; AND, IN MY CONSIDERED OPINION, NEITHER SHOULD ANY OTHER FREEDOM-LOVING AMERICAN.

    Hamilton and his father-in-law, Philip Schuyler, were elitists; and due to Schuyler's money and newspaper connections Hamilton usually received far more favorable publicity than he actually deserved. (So did his often too loudly stated personal opinions.) Schuyler and Hamilton always took care of themselves first. Social and civic freedoms were not high on either man's list of things-to-do. Like most extremely wealthy people the both of them didn't relish the thought of having to maintain their fortunes from within an armed democracy.
     
  18. Eyebone

    Eyebone Midas Member Midas Member

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    Hamilton was not an American, he was a banker.
     
  19. the_shootist

    the_shootist I self identify as a black '69 Camaro Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    Not for nothing but I wouldn't want to be in charge of disarming 100 million people with guns and an attitude
     
  20. 917601

    917601 Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    ....lots of comments, but what matters is how our corrupted Supreme Court will rule on the inevitable " militia" and right to own question which is changing since Scalia's departure. Fact is, should a corrupt Supreme Court rule against private ownership, extreme backlash and inevitable blood shed will occur. Suddenly changing gun ownership " rules" which have been in place for two hundred years is called stealing and theft. Very few things are worth dying for....the right to bear arms is one of those things.
     
  21. <SLV>

    <SLV> Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    The Bill of Rights are individual rights. Governments do not need to give themselves the right to have a military. It is assumed.
     
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  22. mayhem

    mayhem Другая перспектива Silver Miner Site Supporter

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    Indeed.... I will carry my handgun no matter what law they pass. And if they show up at my door I'll no doubt wind up dead. Hopefully I will get to take a scumbag or two with me.
     
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  23. 90%RealMoney

    90%RealMoney Midas Member Midas Member

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    I have to assume that most, if not all fellow Patriot Gun Owners feel the same as I do. No one wants to be the one to start shooting first. But, with so much tension built up over the years, with all of the BS we've been putting up with, If they try something as stupid as gun confiscation, all bloody hell is going to break loose, once the first shots are fired. It's like the thing at the Bundy Ranch. You could tell if someone were to fire a shot accidentally, that was a powder keg ready to go off. Sorta why the Chicken Shit Feds ambushed those guys up in the snow in Oregon. They knew what would happen to them with an equal number of opposition. They want fish in a barrel, or a turkey shoot. They're gonna lose this one if they try it.
     
  24. <SLV>

    <SLV> Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    An armed citizenry "regulates" (checks) the state military.
     
  25. Stinger

    Stinger New Member

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    I wish - I genuinely wish - that the above statement were true; but, ....... anyone who's familiar with modern warfare knows that: (1) A populus that's armed only with small arms and mostly commercial (Think, 'WalMart') ammunition; and (2) severely lacking in all different sorts of: food stuffs, medical supplies, medical care, hospice facilities, as well as all of the other vital military equipment that any successful resistance effort to a modern military attack would absolutely require is, NO MATCH for one of today's, 'MOUT' assaults by well trained and well equipped troops.

    Think about it! The military forces you'd be confronting will quickly take full 100% control of the airspace overhead. Then the tanks, assault vehicles, and support troops will begin to move in to, 'button up' and secure the neighborhood. More civilians with guns will accomplish little more than to provide an interesting array of different moving targets for the, 'peacekeepers in the blue helmets' to shoot at!

    Then, in the extremely unlikely event that some certain neighbor might prevail and successfully hold off a coordinated military incursion, guess what will happen next? No food, no real access to medical treatment or facilities, little or no drinkable water, and guaranteed exposure to the full array of the military's ancillary: chemical, biological, and radiation weapons!

    In the event of a military assault on your neighborhood none of the area's residents are going to be able to move - not even move - without becoming targets-of-opportunity: You, your wife, and your children as well! Everybody's going to have to immediately, 'hunker on down' and remain fixed in position for an extended period of time, or die!

    Sure, a gun in your home might - MIGHT - protect you from being ravaged by your hungry and out-of-control neighbors; but, no amount of small arms will protect you and yours from a full blown modern urban assault by either the United States, and/or United Nations military forces.

    The real reason - the real reason - 'Why' Hillary Clinton keeps pointing out to voters that (in her opinion) Donald Trump shouldn't be allowed to take control of the, 'nuclear button' is because she doesn't want YOU stop to think about what it will mean for YOU AND YOUR FAMILY if she is the one who gains 100% control over all of America's military options!

    (Say goodbye to the hard-won American Constitution and the Bill Of Rights; and say hello to America's, overpriced, and extraordinarily exclusionary Affordable Healthcare Act! 'Why?' Because Obamacare along with all of its additional costs and hidden exclusions will be here to stay!)

    ONE LAST THOUGHT: A little heterosexual, 'womanizing' I can live with. After all let's not turn a completely, 'blind eye' to former President John F. Kennedy's own sexual shenanigans! (You know, 'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone!' Historically speaking, however, Hillary Rodham Clinton is very well known to be NOT such a, 'nice lady' - Got it?

    Another thing, too: Please don't kill the messenger - OK, guys! :D
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2016
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  26. anywoundedduck

    anywoundedduck Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Hmmmmm
    They were reporting last night that Obamacare is all but dead, and has collapsed on itself for lack of participation from healthy Americans, and the Insurance Companies.
    Nicht wahr?
     
  27. Stinger

    Stinger New Member

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    Not so fast! That's an old rumor; one that I'll believe when I finally see it come true - Which, as of right now, very well might not ever happen.
     
  28. CrimsonGuardJay

    CrimsonGuardJay Silver Member Silver Miner

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    I don't know what this assholes case is, "you need to join the national guard" etc, he clearly doesn't know how effective a group of 300-500 civilian marksmen (CMP) are working in pairs and triples, taking one good shot at the enemy, and then moving on.
     
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  29. GOLDBRIX

    GOLDBRIX God,Donald Trump,most in GIM2 I Trust. OTHERS-meh Site Supporter Platinum Bling

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    Stinger, I remember the Vietcong pretty much fit your description and kept the DC politicians and generals "tit in the proverbial ringer". Long enough for the TPTB to puke out of the "police action".

    Men with conviction are far more dangerous than men on a paycheck.
    Remember the Three Percent ( Revolutionary War)
    Oath Keepers
    Sovereign Citizen groups
    Militias ( 1,000 men showed up in Nevada on the Bundy Ranch and caused .gov to back down)
    .gov & SPLC estimates over 1,200 various groups within the Patriot Movement.
    Then there are:
    Lone Wolfs
    AWOL service men
    Some Elected Sheriffs
    and
    local / neighborhood groups
     
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  30. Stinger

    Stinger New Member

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    First, I'm not looking for an argument. Second, there is a huge difference between 'Nam in the late 60's and early 70's, and America in 2017. There hasn't been an internal (shooting) war fought on American soil since 1815; and the world along with military technology and weaponry has radically changed since then.

    In 1812 both sides were more or less evenly matched and they USED THE SAME WEAPONS. If fighting were to break out inside America, now, that would DEFINITELY NOT be the case! I'm not going to argue. Some people need their tough guy illusions in order to feel comfortable with themselves. You guys will do whatever you're going to do. I've had enough consideration for you to try to point out that if ANY SIZE GROUP OF CIVILIANS becomes violent then that violent response is going to FAIL - Period!

    If you don't understand the ultimate complete futility of any sort of violent reaction to the future policies or decisions of a newly elected United States government then nothing I say will be believable to you. SMALL ARMS AND WALMART AMMUNITION are NOT going to work for ya. I know you think you're tough; but what's going to be coming at you will, literally, plow you under. STUPID PEOPLE DIE STUPID DEATHS!

    I'm done with this, now.
     
  31. CrimsonGuardJay

    CrimsonGuardJay Silver Member Silver Miner

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    This is absolute truth, a group of men skilled with scoped rifles can be he only thing standing in between freedom and tyrany.
     
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  32. CrimsonGuardJay

    CrimsonGuardJay Silver Member Silver Miner

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    I can add a lot to this conversation, regarding that. At this point, renewal notices are coming out with new 2017 prices, and there are substantial increases, some in the 20-30% category.

    For people on individual health plans that aren't getting a subsidy, they're pretty much screwed, plain and simple.

    For people on exchanges that get those plans with subsidies are just receiving larger subsidies next year to compensate for the increase. I have one family of three paid $390 this year. Next year the rates are going up $300 for them, BUT, so is the subsidy, and they actually will pay just a few dollars LESS per month.

    Now there's just the little problem of running out of money to pay for all this. That's always been the problem.
     
  33. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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    Just a little food for thought..............

    Is it possible that if a nations currency were to basically become worthless (think Weimar Republic) and food was very scarce and expensive, health care out of the reach of most people and crime was rampant if people wouldn't be willing to give up their firearms (and liberty) in exchange for food, safety and a little prosperity? Especially if someone were to come along who had the endorsement of the government and the blessing of religious leaders?
     
  34. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Hasn't that always been the problem with socialism? Running out of other peoples money?


    Been lookin' in the crystal ball, eh'?
     
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  35. <SLV>

    <SLV> Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    Stinger, 250 years ago when the second amendment was conceived it was reasonable to think that an armed citizenry could match the official military.

    Today the citizen is prohibited from possessing firearm technologies developed since WW1.
     
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  36. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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    lol.....................

    Nah. I just read history and know a (little) bit about human nature.
     
  37. GOLDBRIX

    GOLDBRIX God,Donald Trump,most in GIM2 I Trust. OTHERS-meh Site Supporter Platinum Bling

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    You almost had me STINGER until you left out the War of Northern Aggression aka The Civil War.
    Gorilla tactics are a viable strategy. It doesn't have to be force on force. "He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day".
    Let .gov try to control the urban areas hell they can not do it now, and those citizens will be demanding food and healthcare, so-called security, etc. all leaching time, personnel, and money.

    1st tactic is to start shooting out all cameras, and signal repeater sites. Destroy their surveillance toys.
     
  38. anywoundedduck

    anywoundedduck Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Not unless they plan to eliminate part of a high crime area to use as an example for others.
    If they have the balls to take down the Twin Towers, they would not have qualms using one small nuke to evaporate South Chicago. They (TPTB) do have access, obviously.
    They are capable of anything, including shifting blame so don,'t be surprised.
     
  39. 917601

    917601 Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    You greatly over estimate our military. Fact is our " civilian" population consists of many more vets, much older, wiser, more experienced, better prior service training and vastly outnumbering the youngsters in service and not obligated to follow " rules of engagement" ( very, very few are enlisted in combat arms, even many fewer in the 11B MOS)....today's army of young computer geeks, supply techs, MP's, track heads, females, drone operators, cooks, linguistic specialists, etc...etc...are no match for enraged seperated/ retired vets whose experience runs from Vietnam to Iraq....and many of whom have " been there and done that"......
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2016
    Son of Gloin, Scorpio, mayhem and 3 others like this.
  40. Agavegirl1

    Agavegirl1 Silver Miner Site Supporter ++ Platinum Bling

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    I own a lovely, leather bound copy of the "Federalist Papers" so I have my reading assignment. This is a great discussion.
     

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