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The Declaration of Independence

Discussion in 'Topical Discussions (In Depth)' started by FoundingFathers, Jul 4, 2013.



  1. FoundingFathers

    FoundingFathers Founder Founding Member Site Mgr Site Supporter

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    The Declaration of Independence

    IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

    The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

    When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

    He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
    He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
    He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
    He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
    He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
    He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
    He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
    He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.
    He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
    He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.
    He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
    He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.
    He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
    For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
    For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
    For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
    For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
    For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
    For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences
    For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:
    For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
    For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
    He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
    He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
    He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
    He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
    He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

    In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

    Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our Brittish brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

    We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

    The 56 signatures on the Declaration appear in the positions indicated:

    Column 1
    Georgia:
    Button Gwinnett
    Lyman Hall
    George Walton

    Column 2
    North Carolina:
    William Hooper
    Joseph Hewes
    John Penn
    South Carolina:
    Edward Rutledge
    Thomas Heyward, Jr.
    Thomas Lynch, Jr.
    Arthur Middleton

    Column 3
    Massachusetts:
    John Hancock
    Maryland:
    Samuel Chase
    William Paca
    Thomas Stone
    Charles Carroll of Carrollton
    Virginia:
    George Wythe
    Richard Henry Lee
    Thomas Jefferson
    Benjamin Harrison
    Thomas Nelson, Jr.
    Francis Lightfoot Lee
    Carter Braxton

    Column 4
    Pennsylvania:
    Robert Morris
    Benjamin Rush
    Benjamin Franklin
    John Morton
    George Clymer
    James Smith
    George Taylor
    James Wilson
    George Ross
    Delaware:
    Caesar Rodney
    George Read
    Thomas McKean

    Column 5
    New York:
    William Floyd
    Philip Livingston
    Francis Lewis
    Lewis Morris
    New Jersey:
    Richard Stockton
    John Witherspoon
    Francis Hopkinson
    John Hart
    Abraham Clark

    Column 6
    New Hampshire:
    Josiah Bartlett
    William Whipple
    Massachusetts:
    Samuel Adams
    John Adams
    Robert Treat Paine
    Elbridge Gerry
    Rhode Island:
    Stephen Hopkins
    William Ellery
    Connecticut:
    Roger Sherman
    Samuel Huntington
    William Williams
    Oliver Wolcott
    New Hampshire:
    Matthew Thornton
     
  2. 917601

    917601 Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men,"

    Truths abound, they were divinely inspired by " the Creator", no other government in the history of man , or devised by man, could come close. May God still bless an America under " attack".
     
  3. Oldmansmith

    Oldmansmith Midas Member Midas Member

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    He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.


    Always my favorite line in the Declaration.
     
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  4. Silver Sayyid

    Silver Sayyid Seeker Seeker

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    Gee, here is a new game. Look at the 26 or so reasons listed and count how many of the same issues can be found today.
     
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  5. phideaux

    phideaux Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    2nd favorite:

    A really long train of abuses.

     
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  6. just n case

    just n case Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    The Founders, purposefully chose he words "Laws of Nature and of Nature's God"




    Highlighted (underlined) below for your understanding if your interested in the "truth"

    The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.
    -- John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" (1787-88),
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, - and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
    -- Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11- (1797), carried unanimously by the Senate and signed into law by John Adams (note- written during Washington's presidency)


    Keep it Real



    When I see throughout this book, called the Bible, a history of the grossest vices and a collection of the most paltry and contemptible tales and stories, I could not so dishonor my Creator by calling it by His name. [Thomas Paine, in Toward The Mystery]
     
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  7. 917601

    917601 Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    I think this about sums it up....in their closing....




    "appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world"......Amen.
     
  8. tranzformer

    tranzformer Seeker Seeker

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    "For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent" = Obamacare.
     
  9. phideaux

    phideaux Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    And the farkin' pathological hypocrite in Chief Emperor Obama has the nerve to say this:

    Obama urges Americans to live up to Declaration

    Published July 04, 2013Associated Press

    President Obama is urging Americans on the Fourth of July to live up to the words of the Declaration of Independence by securing liberty and opportunity for their own children as well as for future generations.

    In his weekly radio and online address, Obama commemorates the Fourth of July by looking back at the day in 1776 that a small band of patriots declared those in the American colonies "a people created equal" -- free to think and worship and live as they please.
    Obama says their declaration was "heard around the world."

    Obama says few bet that the Americans would win the revolution that followed. He calls it the first of many times the doubters of America were proven wrong.

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...foxnews/politics+(Internal+-+Politics+-+Text)

     
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  10. newmisty

    newmisty Duppy Conqueror Midas Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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  11. EO 11110

    EO 11110 He Hate Me Mother Lode

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    love the doi! but...

    reading this:

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.


    how did slavery get a foothold? because the northeast pigmen could make a profit importing them?
     
  12. tranzformer

    tranzformer Seeker Seeker

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    FYI, there were free blacks.

    Article 1 Section 2. If you weren't a free person, nor an Indian you were 3/5'ths of a person. How did slavery exist back then? How do a lot of things go on now that won't be viewed as being normal nor right?
     
  13. phideaux

    phideaux Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    3/5ths was a compromise. The Northerners wanted 0, the Southerners wanted 100%.
     
  14. pre-64'

    pre-64' Slaying Debt for Gold Gold Chaser

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  15. pre-64'

    pre-64' Slaying Debt for Gold Gold Chaser

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  16. TRYNEIN

    TRYNEIN Gold Member Gold Chaser

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  17. Goldhedge

    Goldhedge Moderator Site Mgr Site Supporter

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    1776 - The Signing

     
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  18. phideaux

    phideaux Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    Hillsdale is one of the very few independent colleges in the US: they take zero federal funding.

     
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  19. 917601

    917601 Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    Don't cherry pick, walk the halls of DC,....and let me highlight what I post every Thanksgiving....it could not have been said better......how far we have fallen.........May God Bless America.... it is your duty to acknowledge almighty God to receive his protection and favor, good luck to those opposed.

    George Washington's 1789 Thanksgiving Proclamation

    Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor; and Whereas both Houses of Congress have, by their joint committee, requested me to "recommend to the people of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness:"

    Now, therefore, I do recommend and assign Thursday, the 26th day of November next, to be devoted by the people of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be; that we may then all unite in rendering unto Him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people of this country previous to their becoming a nation; for the signal and manifold mercies and the favorable interpositions of His providence in the course and conclusion of the late war; for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty which we have since enjoyed; for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enable to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national one now lately instituted for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed, and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and, in general, for all the great and various favors which He has been pleased to confer upon us.

    And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech Him to pardon our national and other transgressions; to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually; to render our National Government a blessing to all the people by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed; to protect and guide all sovereigns and nations (especially such as have shown kindness to us), and to bless them with good governments, peace, and concord; to promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the increase of science among them and us; and, generally to grant unto all mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as He alone knows to be best.

    Given under my hand, at the city of New York, the 3d day of October, A.D. 1789.
     
  20. Nickelless

    Nickelless If coffee is gold, I own Fort Knox Midas Member

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    "A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people."

    If this isn't Obama, i don't know what is.
     
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  21. 917601

    917601 Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    A hugely different America. My retired military chaplain ( Lt Col) brought up a few interesting facts about our Continental Army, " orders to " pray no less than twice a week", Congress mandated ministers to be appointed in our Army.....interesting to those that care to know what made us great.

    http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel04.html

    The Continental-Confederation Congress, a legislative body that governed the United States from 1774 to 1789, contained an extraordinary number of deeply religious men. The amount of energy that Congress invested in encouraging the practice of religion in the new nation exceeded that expended by any subsequent American national government. Although the Articles of Confederation did not officially authorize Congress to concern itself with religion, the citizenry did not object to such activities. This lack of objection suggests that both the legislators and the public considered it appropriate for the national government to promote a nondenominational, nonpolemical Christianity.

    Congress appointed chaplains for itself and the armed forces, sponsored the publication of a Bible, imposed Christian morality on the armed forces, and granted public lands to promote Christianity among the Indians. National days of thanksgiving and of "humiliation, fasting, and prayer" were proclaimed by Congress at least twice a year throughout the war. Congress was guided by "covenant theology," a Reformation doctrine especially dear to New England Puritans, which held that God bound himself in an agreement with a nation and its people. This agreement stipulated that they "should be prosperous or afflicted, according as their general Obedience or Disobedience thereto appears." Wars and revolutions were, accordingly, considered afflictions, as divine punishments for sin, from which a nation could rescue itself by repentance and reformation.

    The first national government of the United States, was convinced that the "public prosperity" of a society depended on the vitality of its religion. Nothing less than a "spirit of universal reformation among all ranks and degrees of our citizens," Congress declared to the American people, would "make us a holy, that so we may be a happy people."...


    Congressional Fast Day Proclamation
    Congress proclaimed days of fasting and of thanksgiving annually throughout the Revolutionary War. This proclamation by Congress set May 17, 1776, as a "day of Humiliation, Fasting and Prayer" throughout the colonies. Congress urges its fellow citizens to "confess and bewail our manifold sins and transgressions, and by a sincere repentance and amendment of life, appease his [God's] righteous displeasure, and through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ, obtain his pardon and forgiveness." Massachusetts ordered a "suitable Number" of these proclamations be printed so "that each of the religious Assemblies in this Colony, may be furnished with a Copy of the same" and added the motto "God Save This People" as a substitute for "God Save the King."....

    As for the " infamous" diplomatic letter by Adams, it was Americas response to the Islamic Barbary pirate wars, our first " Appeasement" to ..... our very first Islamic terrorist, who captured and held hostage our Embassy in Tripoli...The Marine Corps has their roots, from the halls of Montazuma to the shores of Tripoli.....in fighting Islam terrorism, even today, how strange is that?
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2013
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  22. Aurumag

    Aurumag Dimly lit. Highly reflective Midas Member Site Supporter

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    1.He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
    2.He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.
    3.He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
    4.He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.
    5.He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
    6.For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
    For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
    7.For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
    8.For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
    9.For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences
    10.For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:
    11.For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
    12.For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
    13.He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
    14.He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
    15.He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
     
  23. just n case

    just n case Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Read the above proclamation with the realization that George Washington subscribed to the religious faith of the Enlightenment. He was (most likely) a Deist that spoke prominently of providence. He also made great efforts to be inclusive and encouraging to the citizens of all faiths. Of all the Founders, his personal religious views were for the most part, wisely kept under his hat as he was our first politician after all. ;)
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2013
  24. 917601

    917601 Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    Well, if you don't like the 1789 proclamation, ( I agree,it is watered down, he left out Jesus Christ and the holy ghost), read the Congressional Decree of Nov 1777. Please do not spread lies that our Founding Fathers and Congress were Athiests, agnostics, .....they were spirit filled leaders, our Congress held daily prayer meetings, invoked the powerful name of Jesus Christ,.....and today?


    Congressional Thanksgiving Day Proclamation
    Congress set December 18, 1777, as a day of thanksgiving on which the American people "may express the grateful feelings of their hearts and consecrate themselves to the service of their divine benefactor" and on which they might "join the penitent confession of their manifold sins . . . that it may please God, through the merits of Jesus Christ, mercifully to forgive and blot them out of remembrance." Congress also recommends that Americans petition God "to prosper the means of religion for the promotion and enlargement of that kingdom which consisteth in righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost.'"


    The original proclamation can be seen here.

    http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/vc006494.jpg

    Amen.

    Are you perhaps a " youngster", a product of today's education system? I suspect so.
     
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  25. Silver

    Silver Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    'At the time of the Declaration of Independence every world power was deeply aligned with some Church. Whether it was the RCC in France, or the Church of England, every major world power had deep alignment with a religious affiliation. In fact, most of those that came to America came to be free of any government that had an association in which “God” was a part, as they had all felt the dismal effect of religiosity on secular life.

    That may be why the Declaration of Independence uses the terms “Creator” and “Nature’s God” rather than the very simple three letter “God”. It is also why the Constitution only mentions God in reference to there being no religious test for office. It is why the Bill of Rights stipulates that the government shall have nothing to do with religions, ensuring the freedom of all the people to believe, or not believe what they will. And George Washington was President when the Treaty of Tripoli was negotiated, signed by John Adams and ratified by a Congress that contained many of the Founding Fathers that opens with the clear statement that the United States is NOT a Christian Country.

    From Thomas Paine to Jefferson and Madison we see in the writings of the Founding Fathers a strong belief that government is secular. That government is NOT in the God business and in fact takes no stand on if there is one God, many Gods or no God at all.

    The Fourth of July is not a holiday to give thanks to God, the armed forces, those that fought and died to protect America through the years, etc. But it should be a time for us to reflect on the Founding Fathers who had the wisdom to know that the failed government from which these Colonists fled all shared a common thread, one where God and Country were mixed, and they were wise enough to ensure that they avoided the mistakes of those other countries and ensured that the government would be secular, protecting all rights for personal faith, including non-belief, equally.

    If there is anything that we as a people should think on at this point in time it is the wisdom of those Founding Fathers, and the lack of wisdom by those that followed who have inserted their personal faith as part of our Countries identity. We should take the time to re-commit ourselves to ensuring personal liberty, like those Founding Fathers did, by doing all we can to keep the government secular, and not letting the will of the majority use their personal faith to trample on the minorities right to enjoy the fruits of a government that endorses no faith.'
     
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  26. 917601

    917601 Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    Hogwash, the Puritans came to America to start a spirit led nation, a Puritan government civil magistrate was required to swear an oath of allegiance to govern in submission to God and the Bible. Take a trip to Washington DC, look around at all the marble inscriptions, from the Ten Commandments to all the proclamations, heck, Ben Franklin suggested the Great US Seal should depict Moses parting of the Red Sea, Jefferson's idea of a seal should be Children of Israel in the Wilderness, led by a Cloud by Day, and a Pillar of Fire by night. . . You can view those Seals in the Library of Congress. The " intent" of our founding fathers was a civil government formally committed to God and his law and not have a "state church." A big difference.
     
  27. Silver

    Silver Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    The Founding Fathers were not puritans ;) You need more study, numbers. You seem to have the Achilles Heal of a follower of hierarchical power structures - might does not make right.

    http://press.princeton.edu/chapters/i7500.html

    Introduction

    IN 1639, a group of New England Puritans drafted a constitution affirming their faith in God and their intention to organize a Christian Nation. Delegates from the towns of Windsor, Hartford, and Wethersfield drew up the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut, which made clear that their government rested on divine authority and pursued godly purposes. The opening lines express the framers' trust in God and their dependence on his guidance: "Forasmuch as it hath pleased the All-mighty God by the wise disposition of his divyne providence so to Order and dispose of things, . . . [and] well knowing where a people are gathered togather the word of God requires that to mayntayne the peace and vnion of such a people there should be an orderly and decent Government established according to God, to order and dispose of the affayres of the people." Moreover, the aim of the government so instituted was religious: "to mayntayne and presearue the liberty and purity of the gospell of our Lord Jesus which we now professe, as also the disciplyne of the Churches, which according to the truth of the said gospell is now practised amongst vs."1 Like their neighbors in Massachusetts Bay, the Connecticut Puritans determined to plant a "Christian Commonwealth," what Governor John Winthrop hoped would become a "City upon a Hill" that would inspire believers everywhere as a model Christian Nation.2

    Those Puritan Fathers exemplify two of the most enduring views of colonial America: America as a haven of religious freedom, and America as a Christian Nation. First, the Puritan settlers had fled England, where Archbishop William Laud had persecuted them because they refused to subscribe to religious beliefs and practices that they deemed to be unscriptural. Now in the American wilderness, they were free to worship according to the dictates of their consciences, governed only by the rule of God's word. And, second, those Puritan Fathers organized a Christian State. They established their Congregational churches as the official religion of Connecticut, supported by tax revenues and defended by the coercive arm of government. The churches defined "heretics," and the state punished them, even to the point of executing those found guilty of "direct, express, presumptuous, or high-minded blasphemy." Moreover, citizenship in the state was directly tied to one's religious faith. The authors of the Fundamental Orders meant for only godly Christians to rule, an intention embodied in the oath of the governor, which committed the chief magistrate to govern "according to the rule of the word of God."3

    One hundred and fifty years later, George Washington took another oath, swearing to "faithfully execute the office of the President of the United States" and pledging to the best of his ability to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States." The constitution that he swore to uphold was the work of another group of America's progenitors, commonly known as the "Founding Fathers," who in 1787 drafted a constitution for the new nation. But unlike the work of the Puritan Fathers, the federal constitution made no reference whatever to God or divine providence, citing as its sole authority "the people of the United States." Further, its stated purposes were secular, political ends: "to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty." Instead of building a "Christian Commonwealth," the supreme law of the land established a secular state. The opening clause of its first amendment introduced the radical notion that the state had no voice concerning matters of conscience: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."4 In debating the language of that amendment, the first House of Representatives rejected a Senate proposal that would have made possible the establishment of the Christian religion or of some aspect of Christian orthodoxy.5 There would be no Church of the United States. Nor would America represent itself to the world as a Christian Republic.
     
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  28. Libertaurum

    Libertaurum Gold Chaser Platinum Bling

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    Happy Birthday, United States.

    May the principles that originally inspired you revive in the spirits of those who inherited you. May the memory of the love of liberty you once had save you from the clutches of socialist tyranny, which so many of your current inhabitants seem so eager to embrace.

    Here's to liberty!!

    :beerglass:
     
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  29. just n case

    just n case Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Wrong Again!
     
  30. honu5050

    honu5050 Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    In god we trust .... all others pay cash ! :cake:
     
  31. phideaux

    phideaux Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    In god we trust... all others pay with metals.:cool1:
     
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  32. 917601

    917601 Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    The phrase 'separation of church and state' does not appear in the Constitution. Do remember, the US Supreme Court in 1947 coined the phrase.

    David Barton has commentary, good reading to realize how the Supreme Court hoodwinked the public once again. This debate continues.....


    "One further note should be made about the now infamous "separation" dogma. The Congressional Records from June 7 to September 25, 1789, record the months of discussions and debates of the ninety Founding Fathers who framed the First Amendment. Significantly, not only was Thomas Jefferson not one of those ninety who framed the First Amendment, but also, during those debates not one of those ninety Framers ever mentioned the phrase "separation of church and state." It seems logical that if this had been the intent for the First Amendment – as is so frequently asserted-then at least one of those ninety who framed the Amendment would have mentioned that phrase; none did.

    In summary, the "separation" phrase so frequently invoked today was rarely mentioned by any of the Founders; and even Jefferson's explanation of his phrase is diametrically opposed to the manner in which courts apply it today. "Separation of church and state" currently means almost exactly the opposite of what it originally meant.

    http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=123

    I have read all of Barton's research papers, and books, he makes a powerful case, believe what you want to, there is room for both sides of the argument. Trying to analyze " intent" , goes both ways, and the US Supreme Court, Mammon's court blew in many times....
     
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  33. just n case

    just n case Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Not coined in 1947, but by Thomas Jefferson in 1808.

    "Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. Religious institutions that use government power in support of themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths, or of no faith, undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of an established religion tends to make the clergy unresponsive to their own people, and leads to corruption within religion itself. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.
    We have solved, by fair experiment, the great and interesting question whether freedom of religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the laws. And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort which results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly those principles of religion which are the inductions of his own reason and the serious convictions of his own inquiries."
    -- Thomas Jefferson, to the Virginia Baptists (1808)







    Perhaps you aren't aware that David Barton is a known unreliable source of historical information. He has been known to make up and publish false quotes and claim the are the words of men that cannot defend themselves (our long dead Founders). Can we agree that this is despicable?

    Here are a few links about David Barton and his past willingness to make up false quotes and attribute them to the founders.

    http://http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=David_Barton
    http://http://www.publiceye.org/ifas/fw/9606/barton.html
    http://http://home.comcast.net/~pobrien48/Lies%20for%20Jesus%20and%20Christiaity.htm
    http://http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/founding.htm#MYTHING

    Excerpt from- http://www.michiganatheists.org/quotes2.html
    David Barton is a Christian fundamentalist from the WallBuilders group. He wrote a book full of quotes from the Founding Fathers that really took the Atheist's take on the foundation of this country to task. Many people jumped to do the research to find out the validity of these quotes. Firms devoted to Madison and Jefferson became involved, universities got involved and ultimately the Library of Congress was the final resting place for these quotes.

    David Barton was cornered and he admitted to fabricating the quotes, okay he actually called them "spurious," but we all know that means he made them up. He was ordered to create a pamphlet that listed all his bogus quotes. Unfortunate that pamphlet has had almost zero impact on those use the quotes daily in newspapers around the United States.

    Here are some of the BOGUS quotes that you should immediately refute if you see them used in a letter to the editor, in an online forum, or anywhere else for that matter.

    1) "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ!" - Patrick Henry

    2) "The only assurance of our nation's safety is to lay our foundation in morality and religion." - Abraham Lincoln

    3) "It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible." - George Washington

    4) "Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise. In this sense and to this extent, our civilizations and our institutions are emphatically Christian." - Holy Trinity v. U. S. (Supreme Court case)

    5) "The principles of all genuine liberty, and of wise laws and administrations are to be drown from the Bible and sustained by its authority. The man therefore who weakens or destroys the divine authority of that book may be assessory [sic] to all the public disorders which society is doomed to suffer." - Noah Webster

    6) "A general dissolution of principles and manners will more surely overthrow the liberties of America than the whole force of the common enemy. While the people are virtuous they cannot be subdued; but when once they lose their virtue they will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first external or eternal invader." - Samuel Adams

    7) "We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves ... according to the Ten Commandments of God." - James Madison

    8) "There are two powers only which are sufficient to control men, and secure the rights of individuals and a peaceable administration; these are the combined force of religion and law, and the force or fear of the bayonet." - Noah Webster

    9) "Whosoever shall introduce into the public affairs the principles of primitive Christianity will change the face of the world." - Benjamin Franklin

    10) "The philosophy of the school room in one generation will be the philosophy of government in the next." - Abraham Lincoln

    11) "I have always said and always will say that the studious perusal of the Sacred Volume will make us better citizens." - Thomas Jefferson




    The fact that Mr. Barton found it necessary to make up false quotes to support his platform is telling, and Barton’s deliberately rewriting history with lies is unconscionable.



    As a homeschooling parent, it really bothers me that Barton and his Wallbuilders are a popular source of American history curriculum for homeschooled children.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2013
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  34. 917601

    917601 Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    Fact is, " a separation of church and state" is never mentioned in the Constitution. "Intent" can be argued all day long, especially when interpreted by one man or the Supreme Court. It is obvious we will not agree, so we have what we have, and I put my trust in no man, none.,especially atheist web sites. I am sure you can agree to that.

    You will find interesting this library of Congress discussion, ....FBI?.....


    http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danbury.html


    Thomas Jefferson's reply on Jan. 1, 1802, to an address from the Danbury (Conn.) Baptist Association, congratulating him upon his election as president, contains a phrase that is as familiar in today's political and judicial circles as the lyrics of a hit tune: "a wall of separation between church and state." This phrase has become well known because it is considered to explain (many would say, distort) the "religion clause" of the First Amendment to the Constitution: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion ...," a clause whose meaning has been the subject of passionate dispute for the past 50 years.
    During his lifetime, Jefferson could not have predicted that the language in his Danbury Baptist letter would have endured as long as some of his other arresting phrases. The letter was published in a Massachusetts newspaper a month after Jefferson wrote it and then was more or less forgotten for half a century. It was put back into circulation in an edition of Jefferson's writings, published in 1853, and reprinted in 1868 and 1871.
    The Supreme Court turned the spotlight on the "wall of separation" phrase in 1878 by declaring in Reynolds v. United States "that it may be accepted almost as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the [first] amendment."
    The high court took the same position in widely publicized decisions in 1947 and 1948, asserting in the latter case, McCollum v. Board of Education, that, "in the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect 'a wall of separation between church and state.'" Since McCollum forbade religious instruction in public schools, it appeared that the court had used Jefferson's "wall" metaphor as a sword to sever religion from public life, a result that was and still is intolerable to many Americans.
    Some Supreme Court justices did not like what their colleagues had done. In 1962, Justice Potter Stewart complained that jurisprudence was not "aided by the uncritical invocation of metaphors like the 'wall of separation,' a phrase nowhere to be found in the Constitution." Addressing the issue in 1985, Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist lamented that "unfortunately the Establishment Clause has been expressly freighted with Jefferson's misleading metaphor for nearly 40 years." Defenders of the metaphor responded immediately: "despite its detractors and despite its leaks, cracks and its archways, the wall ranks as one of the mightiest monuments of constitutional government in this nation."
    Given the gravity of the issues involved in the debate over the wall metaphor, it is surprising that so little effort has been made to go behind the printed text of the Danbury Baptist letter to unlock its secrets. Jefferson's handwritten draft of the letter is held by the Library's Manuscript Division. Inspection reveals that nearly 30 percent of the draft -- seven of 25 lines -- was deleted by the president prior to publication. Jefferson indicated his deletions by circling several lines and noting in the left margin that they were to be excised. He inked out several words in the circled section and a few words elsewhere in the draft. He also inked out three entire lines following the circled section. Click here to see the text of the final letter.
    Since the Library plans to display Jefferson's handwritten draft of the Danbury Baptist letter in its forthcoming exhibition "Religion and the Founding of the American Republic," the question was raised whether modern computer technology could be used to uncover Jefferson's inked-out words, so that the unedited copy of the letter might be shown to viewers alongside Jefferson's corrected draft. The Library requested the assistance of FBI Director Louis Freeh, who generously permitted the FBI Laboratory to apply its state-of-the-art technology to the task of restoring Jefferson's obliterated words. The FBI was successful, with the result that the entire draft of the Danbury Baptist letter is now legible (below). This fully legible copy will be seen in the exhibition in the company of its handwritten, edited companion draft. Click here to see Jefferson's unedited text. By examining both documents, viewers will be able to discern Jefferson's true intentions in writing the celebrated Danbury Baptist letter.
     
  35. Libertaurum

    Libertaurum Gold Chaser Platinum Bling

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    Freedom of religion must indeed include freedom from religion, if one so chooses. Nobody has any right to impose their religious beliefs on others, particularly through government and laws.

    Now, if we could get past that, perhaps we could arrive at the next wall that must be erected: a wall of separation between economy and State. Maybe in the next 237 years.
     
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  36. just n case

    just n case Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    perhaps a source from, your (bible believing) side?

    From the Baptist Joint Committee

    A Critique of David Barton's Views on Church and State
    Written by J. Brent Walker
    Friday, 01 April 2005
    In 1995 I wrote a critique of "America's Godly Heritage," a video by David Barton. At that time, Barton's views were little-known beyond his native Texas. I prepared my critique in response to occasional inquiries from friends of the BJC who rightly questioned Barton's claim that America is "a Christian nation."

    Since then Barton's reputation and influence have steadily grown. He has written several books, founded an organization to advance his ideas and become a central figure in some religious circles, as well as an operative of the Republican Party. He has served as the Vice Chair of the Texas GOP and was named one of the nation's "25 Most Influential Evangelicals" by Time magazine in 2005.

    While the avenues for his message have multiplied, the themes of Barton's work are the same today as they were in 1995. Barton peddles the proposition that America is a Christian nation, legally and historically. He asserts that the principle of church-state separation, while not in the Constitution, has systematically been used to rule religion out of the public arena, particularly the public school system. His presentation has just enough ring of truth to make him credible to many people. His work, however, is laced with exaggerations, half-truths and misstatements of fact.

    As more individuals, congregations and elected officials are influenced by Barton's claims, the threat of his campaign becomes more real. In an effort to counter Barton's misguided mission, and still using "America's Godly Heritage" as an outline, I have updated and revised my critique of some of Barton's most prominent and problematic claims.

    J. Brent Walker, Executive Director
    Baptist Joint Committee
    April 2005

    critique here - http://http://www.bjconline.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2377&Itemid=110
     
  37. newmisty

    newmisty Duppy Conqueror Midas Member

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    We could certainly stand a separation between state and state and between state and stupidity.
     
  38. phideaux

    phideaux Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    And separation of education and state.

    And healthcare and state.

    And energy and state.

    And on and on...
     
  39. 917601

    917601 Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    Again , one man's opinion . Barton's books are loaded full of pictures of original manuscripts, "the real thing". Pictures speak more fact than words. You can read them yourselves. For instance, the Great Seal propositioned by Franklin, and various others. He tracked down the original manuscripts in the Library of Congress, ...etc... It is evident you ( and I ) will believe what we want to believe, and we will not be changed. The whole " separation of Church and State" debate, in the end, means little. It just further confirms Biblicla truth, Remember way back when the Israelites demanded they wanted a human king ? God as their King wasn't good enough? They were rewarded with King Saul, and you know how that ended, we find ourselves in the same spot....centuries later, wash, rinse, repeat.
     
  40. Silver

    Silver Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Classic. :headsand:
     

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