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The Suddenly Poor Life: Millions Will Lose Their Pensions

Discussion in 'Coffee Shack (Daily News/Economy)' started by Goldhedge, Mar 4, 2016.



  1. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    I don't know what YOU should invest in, all I know is that the alternative is to take a huge chance that the ones who do it for you will do nothing but lose it for you.
    At least this way you have some PM's and your own business. (congrats on your success!)Do you really think the managers of GMs pension fund would have done better for you?
     
  2. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    That credit allowed for transactions that would have otherwise not existed and therefor allowed GDP to go up much more than it otherwise would have.
    It's a double edged sword, that while allowing for much more economic activity than would otherwise be possible, it also allowed gov to build debt at a much higher rate than would have otherwise been possible.

    Imagine how much worse our situation will be when/if that extra growth in spending due to credit goes away and all we are left with is the previous debts.
    It'll be a World of hurt like we ain't never seen.
     
  3. FunnyMoney

    FunnyMoney Silver Member Silver Miner

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    Sure, I understand your point and you are correct to a degree. But remember the saying "penny wise, pound foolish?"

    The things you and Duck are talking about are in the hundreds, thousands, even tens of thousands of dollars - not chump change I know. Important points that will definitely make a difference, to a degree, if the right choices are made.

    But the thefts I am talking about are well into the millions, billions and even trillions of dollars - trying to make it all ok, while the system is essentially a half-slavery system on the road to a full slavery system is basically a relative joke, relatively speaking.

    So what about those people like 90RM above, who make the smart decisions? They do ok, or better than most, but if the system was fair and honest, they'd probably be as rich as Trump and running for POTUS.

    So what about those people like woundedduck above, who might make some good and some bad decisions or might just be more unlucky in timing? Not only are things much more difficult to succeed because of the corrupt system but they may find themselves too far gone at some point to be able to get back up.

    You are playing in a rigged casino, whether you believe it or not. If you win, you are among the few and you get only what they allow you to get. If you lose, the safety net that awaits you is the North Korean model. Why do you think NK is treated like a little toddler, like a crazy step child instead of the evil totalitarian nation it is? The reason why the MSM and China and even the West to a large degree, treat them like this is because they are the real living model for where they want the world to go during this century.
     
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  4. GOLD DUCK

    GOLD DUCK Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    QWAK,FunnyMoney,What we are really talking about is the gradgual acceptence of fraud and corruption becoming the accepted norm.:(

    Every one cuting corners and cheating so just to be (NORMAL) one feels justified in doing fraud and finding ways to do it better.
     
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  5. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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    "This Is Going To Be A National Crisis" - One Of The Largest U.S. Pension Funds Set To Cut Retiree Benefits

    [​IMG]
    Submitted by Tyler Durden on 04/20/2016 23:42 -0400


    A dark storm is brewing in the world of private pensions, and all hell could break loose when it finally hits.

    As the Washington Post reports, the Central States Pension Fund, which handles retirement benefits for current and former Teamster union truck drivers across various states including Texas, Michigan, Wisconsin, Missouri, New York, and Minnesota, and is one of the largest pension funds in the nation, has filed an application to cut participant benefits, which would be effective July 1 2016, as it "projects" it will become officially insolvent by 2025. In 2015, the fund returned -0.81%, underperforming the 0.37% return of its benchmark.

    Over a quarter of a million people depend on their pension being handled by the CSPF; for most it is their only source of fixed income.

    [​IMG]

    Pension funds applying to lower promised benefits is a new development, albeit not unexpected (we warned of this mounting issue numerous times in the past). For many years there existed federal protections which shielded pensions from being cut, but that all changed in December 2014, when folded neatly into a $1.1 trillion government spending bill, was a proposal to allow multi employer pension plans to cut pension benefits so long as they are projected to run out of money in the next 10 to 20 years. Between rising benefit payouts as participants become eligible, the global financial crisis, and the current interest rate environment, it was certainly just a matter of time before these steps were taken to allow pension plans to cut benefits to stave off insolvency.

    The Central States Pension Fund is currently paying out $3.46 in pension benefits for every $1 it receives from employers, which has resulted in the fund paying out $2 billion more in benefits than it receives in employer contributions each year.

    As a result, Thomas Nyhan, executive director of the Central States Pension Fund said that the fund could become insolvent by 2025 if nothing is done. The fund currently pays out $2.8 billion a year in benefits according to Nyhan, and if the plan becomes insolvent it would overwhelm the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (designed by the government to absorb insolvent plans and continue paying benefits), who at the end of fiscal 2015 only had $1.9 billion in total assets itself. Incidentally as we also pointed out last month, the PBGC projects that they will also be insolvent by 2025 - it appears there is something very foreboding about that particular year.

    As the Washington Post writes:

    Ava Miller, 64, and her husband, Ed Northrup, 68, could see their combined monthly pension income cut to about $3,000 from the nearly $7,000 they receive now, according to a letter they received from Central States in October.

    If the cuts go through, Miller, who worked as a dispatcher in Flint, Mich., said they will need to dip into their savings to help cover their $1,300 mortgage payment, heating bills and trips to visit her 84-year old mother. Northrup, a retired car hauler, has started applying for truck driving jobs that could supplement their potentially smaller pension payments.

    What makes the cuts more painful, Miller said, is that she took pay cuts so that the company could continue making contributions to the pension.

    "I did everything I was supposed to," Miller said, adding that she and her husband made extra payments on their car loan to cut down on their monthly bills after they received letters in October informing them of the potential cuts.

    All hope is not lost, however.

    Democratic candidate Bernie Sanders has proposed a bill that would repeal the measure allowing cuts, and instead calls for the government to provide assistance to troubled pension funds.

    In other words, another bailout.

    Which brings us to the current juncture, where we remind everyone that the governments own safety net, the PBGC has itself become insolvent, and according to CNN, projects that more than 10% of the roughly 1,400 multiemployer plans, covering more than 1 million workers fits the current criteria to be able to apply for benefit cuts for participants.

    "This is going to be a national crisis for hundreds of thousands, and eventually millions, of retirees and their families. It's going to open the floodgates for other cuts." said Karen Friedman, executive president of the Pension Rights Center.

    [​IMG]

    We can't help but wonder that as more pension funds become insolvent, and more and more participants are forced to take reductions in benefits, whether helicopter money won't soon become a reality for the United States, even before it becomes one in Japan. Especially if it is spun by some opportunistic politicans as the "only hope" for America's workers to preserve some of their retirement savings.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-...est-us-pension-funds-set-cut-retiree-benefits
     
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  6. the_shootist

    the_shootist The war is here on our doorstep! Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    It's very sad that so many people who worked hard for decades and sold a bill of goods around a pension are going to get nothing. From the most modest pension to insanely stupid ones....they'll all be affected. Sad really!
     
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  7. GOLD DUCK

    GOLD DUCK Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    QWAK,When you trust your future to others they will rob you because of your choice to trust blindly!:thumbs down:

    The same will happen with SS!:thumbs down:

    the DUCK:winks2:
     
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  8. the_shootist

    the_shootist The war is here on our doorstep! Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    I have a comprehensive plan to get my SS...

    Paint my skin brown and put my hands out!
     
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  9. edsl48

    edsl48 Silver Member Silver Miner

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    When I graduated from College in ancient times with a degree in Accounting and had passed the CPA exam my salary was 10,000.00 per annum. At that time union teamster drivers would routinely make 20,000.00 per annum. They had a retirement and health care plan that covered literally everything while I had to suffer with deductibles and co-pays and no retirement plan. Not even a 401K. So now those so called "knights of the road" are waking up to the reality that their pension, that was a union plan, just can't do what it promised and think that those of us that received none of the goodies that they did should now pay for their retirement that their union squandered.
    I say tough to them on this. I hate to sound uncaring but I had a much rougher time seeing to it that my retirement and health were and are provided for and I still run a business while they complain they might not be able to go to the fishing cabin a few times less next year.
     
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  10. the_shootist

    the_shootist The war is here on our doorstep! Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    Karma's a bitch :)
     
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  11. southfork

    southfork Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    So good thing the big union dogs and the politicians don't have to worry about theirs getting cut, only joe6pk as usual.
     
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  12. GOLD DUCK

    GOLD DUCK Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    QWAK,We learn to trust others more than our selves because that is what our parents and teachers were tought and that was/is SOoooooooooooooooooooooo wrong!:thumbs down:

    Even if you screw up most likely it will not be as bad as trusting others with your $$$$!

    the DUCK :winks2:
     
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  13. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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  14. Uglytruth

    Uglytruth Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Think about the time frame of all that. It was cutting edge at the time...... security, retirement, was all just a dream in the early / mid 1900's. Now it has been exposed as a giant pyramid scheme........ just like Socialised Security. Why do you think govt has their own pension system....... us workers ........ they knew it would fail. Darn people living to long and we can't kick the can much further. See the thread on IL not paying the fighting children in govt. 3-4 months might get them behind on their Mercedes lease.
     
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  15. southfork

    southfork Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    Getting 7k a month, most people don't get that much working, no tears here
     
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  16. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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    Here Come A Lot Of Angry Teamsters: One Of America's Largest Pension Funds Demands A Taxpayer Bailout

    [​IMG]
    Submitted by Tyler Durden on 05/12/2016 22:27 -0400

    Over the past few months, we have covered the unfolding saga (here and here) of the Central States Pension Fund, which handles retirement benefits for current and former Teamster union truck drivers across various states including Texas, Michigan, Wisconsin, Missouri, New York, and Minnesota, and is one of the largest pension funds in the nation, all the way through Kenneth Feinberg's rejection of the proposal to cut benefits on behalf of the Treasury.

    [​IMG]

    When the proposal was rejected, we said that the final resolution will be in the form of an inevitable taxpayer-funded bailout

    If the Treasury won't allow any pension cuts, and the government created safety net won't be there to keep the benefits flowing, how will the cash continue to flow to members? With the precedent now set by the Treasury that no cuts will be allowed, the answer will likely come in the form of a massive bailout.

    As it turns out, that is precisely what fund director Thomas Nyhan believes as well. Nyhan said the rejection means the CSPF likely won't be able to offer another proposed fix without getting funding from Congress, either directly or through the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp.

    However with the PBGC also on its way to insolvency, and unable to shoulder the additional burden in world of zero and negative rates, that leaves us with... drum roll please... the US taxpayers, aka Congress, footing the bill.

    "There are only two solutions. Either the plan receives more money or has to have fewer benefits. I'm hopeful that come probably 2017, we can actually all get to work on something that can provide a solution. If there is no legislation at any time, we're going to end up going to insolvency." Nyhan said.

    The full-court press is now on, as now everyone involved is calling on congress to step in. Visitors to CSPF's website this morning were greeed with a banner directing to a rescue plan website.

    [​IMG]

    Before you could enter the rescue site a pop-up message is shown, simply saying that since congress effectively shut down the proposal, they can now stand up and pass legislation to bail the fund out.

    "Central States strongly urges these members to act now to pass legislation that protects the pension benefits of the over 400,000 participants of Central States Pension Fund"

    [​IMG]

    With the Treasury denying the possibility of pension cuts, the ball is now in Congress' court to initiate a bailout.

    When it does, because it will, the flood gates will be open for the rest of the insolvent funds to come knocking with their hands out, and we can formally welcome the arrival of helicopter money - whether Yellen wants it or not - in the United States.

    [​IMG]

    What follows is Tom Nyhan testifying before congress back in 2013, laying it out in very plain terms that without funding, or significant benefit cuts, the game is over.

    "Unless the fund substantially reduces its liabilities, or receives a large influx of assets, it's projected become insolvent within ten or fifteen years, and at this point our options are very limited."





    Nobody listened, and now - in this bold new age of pension fund crushing zero and negative interest rates - it is game over.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-...cas-largest-pension-funds-demands-taxpayer-ba
     
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  17. Uglytruth

    Uglytruth Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Just one of a long list heading that way............. that means more poor people (can't afford shit) begging for what they worked a lifetime for & planned their lives around.
    The good point of this is the day or reckoning is very close........ not for the starving......... but for the pigs that got fat at the trough.
     
  18. GOLD DUCK

    GOLD DUCK Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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  19. GOLD DUCK

    GOLD DUCK Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    QWAK,You can bet your last FRN that the union officials got or will get theres!:thumbs down:

    the DUCK :winks2:
     
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  20. edsl48

    edsl48 Silver Member Silver Miner

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    Of course they got theirs...they ran the Pension Plan and no doubt racked up a lot of fees, commissions etc etc etc
     
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  21. latemetal

    latemetal Platinum Bling Platinum Bling

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    Just like the Politicians and Bankers got theirs, damn these people are crooks...
     
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  22. Uglytruth

    Uglytruth Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    The new pension plan is get paid huge amounts & stash it any way you can ........ and don't worry about anyone else.
     
  23. southfork

    southfork Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    Unions are in bed with .gov, they will pass a bill to fund their pension plans have no fear.
     
  24. Son of Gloin

    Son of Gloin Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter ++

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    I'll try this again. There's way too much assumption going on by people who don't understand the situation. I guess that's about how it works on most subjects.
     
  25. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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    407,000 Workers Stunned As Pension Fund Proposes 60% Cuts, Treasury Says "Not Enough"

    [​IMG]
    Submitted by Tyler Durden on 05/22/2016 12:08 -0400

    Submitted by Michael Shedlock via MishTalk.com,

    407,000 private sector workers are about to lose most of their pensions.

    I first wrote about this on April 21, in One of Nation’s Largest Pension Funds (Truckers) Will Reduce Benefits or Go Broke by 2025.

    The Central States Pension Fund, which handles the retirement benefits for current and former Teamster union truck drivers across various states applied for reductions under that law.

    Currently the plan pays out $3.46 in pension benefits for every $1 it receives from employers. That’s a drain of $2 billion annually.

    The plan filed for 60% cuts in pensions. The Treasury Department has the final say. The verdict came in today: “cuts not deep enough”.

    Please consider Pensions May be Cut to ‘Virtually Nothing’ for 407,000 People.

    The Central States Pension Fund has no new plan to avoid insolvency, fund director Thomas Nyhan said this week. Without government funding, the fund will run out of money in 10 years, he said.

    At that time, pension benefits for about 407,000 people could be reduced to “virtually nothing,” he told workers and retirees in a letter sent Friday.

    In a last-ditch effort, the Central States Pension Plan sought government approval to partially reduce the pensions of 115,000 retirees and the future benefits for 155,000 current workers. The proposed cuts were steep, as much as 60% for some, but it wasn’t enough. Earlier this month, the Treasury Department rejected the plan because it found that it would not actually head off insolvency.

    The fund could submit a new plan, but decided this week that there’s no other way to successfully save the fund and comply with the law. The cuts needed would be too severe.

    Normally, when a multi-employer fund like Central States runs out of money, a government insurance fund called the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBGC) kicks in so that retirees still receive some kind of benefit.

    But that’s not a great solution in this case. For one thing, the amount is smaller than what pensioners would have received under the Central States reduction plan, and is based on the number of years a retiree worked. A retiree would receive a maximum $35.75 a month for each year worked, according to the fund’s website. (That amounts to $1,072.50 a month for retiree who worked 30 years.)

    But there’s yet another problem. The PBGC itself is underfunded and isn’t expected to be able to cover all the retirees in the Central States Pension Fund.

    Dear Beneficiary

    [​IMG]

    Click here for the entire “Dear Beneficiary” letter.

    This is a sad saga for which there is no happy ending.

    Public Union Whiners

    An Illinois state worker was whining earlier today about my post Chicago Pension Liabilities Jump 168%, Understated by $11.5 Billion.

    When private pension plans go broke, they go broke. Public pension expect a bailout.

    I replied to the person whining … “Corrupt politicians got in bed with corrupt union leaders making promises both knew could not be met.”

    Public workers have no idea how well off they are vs. the private sector, yet they demand, more, and more and more, from a state that is broke.

    Taxpayers owe the Chicago pension fund absolutely nothing. Bankruptcy is the solution.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-...und-proposes-60-cuts-treasury-says-not-enough
     
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  26. GOLD DUCK

    GOLD DUCK Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    QWAK,When the TRUCKERS stop trucking every thing STOPS!:thumbs down:

    the DUCK :winks2:
     
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  27. Mujahideen

    Mujahideen Black Member Midas Member

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    Pensions are simply welfare in a different name, people feel entitled to the welfare because they believe that they have earned the welfare by putting time in.

    If you are taking out more than what you have put in then you are a burden.

    I don't really care what the private companies do, but why does the government allow for such nonsense?
     
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  28. solarion

    solarion Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    ...because it benefits goobermint?
     
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  29. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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    Public pensions are a nation wide problem that will soon come home to roost with cops and teachers pensions at the forefront. All across the country they have been promised things that the tax payers simply can't afford. It's really criminal what our elected officials promised these people when you get down to the nitty gritty.

    It's going to be interesting to see how it'll play out.
     
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  30. edsl48

    edsl48 Silver Member Silver Miner

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    IN this case we have a private union pension fund demanding, or will demand, a public bailout. Back in the day the union funds never paid into any Federal Insurance Program and for years the Teamsters Pension funds were always alleged to be riddled with corruption, payoffs, cronyism and bad investments. Never the less the Teamsters always elected the usual status quo and will soon reap the rewards of their decisions unless, that is, once and for all the Government says no once and for all. However, as we know bailing out a union pension fund sure buys a lot of votes no matter what side of the aisle the bailouts and other favorable treatment come from. An example of this was when the Teamsters backed Republican Nixon over the Democrat Kennedy. Kennedy was determined to get into the corruption in that pension fund among other things and that was enough for the Teamster's to back a Republican.
     
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  31. Uglytruth

    Uglytruth Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Don't the bible say to pay a man his wages at the end of every day? "You shall give him his wages on the same day, before the sun sets (for he is poor and counts on it), lest he cry against you to the LORD, and you be guilty of sin."
    All these strings are just opportunities to be stolen from. There is no trust in business govt or our fellow man anymore.

    What about the unseen? If paid in full without all the bs that goes along with employment in todays world. Would a man pay off his house or car early or never have to borrow in the first place? Oh the poor banksters would starve.
     
  32. Thecrensh

    Thecrensh Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Even the U.S. military is beginning to shift away from pensions; I am hearing that they no longer offer them. Instead, they are giving new recruits the opportunity to "invest" part of their paycheck in the "Thrift Savings Plan" (401K) instead of a 50% base pay pension after 20 years.
     
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  33. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    What they'd do is save up until they could afford to pay cash, or find other sources of financing...friends, family, or someone else to tote the note.
    It's why Wimpy couldn't get hamburger today for lunch, but pay for it next Tuesday. He either wasn't credit worthy or hadn't applied for it and therefor had to wait 'til Tuesday when he got paid.


    Right or wrong, love 'em or hate 'em, what the bankers provide is access to funds you haven't yet earned, but that the banker reasonably believes you will earn.
    ...and do so for a fee.

    Assuming the bank has room on its balance sheet, credit is extended to acceptable applicants that is used to purchase something on their behalf. (like a house) It then enters the "money" supply and is spent back and forth a buncha times and is slowly drawn out of circulation as people use it to repay the principal on their loans. At that point it disappears back into the thin air from whence it was born. Same as all the other "money" in circulation represented by numbers in a ledger or on a computer screen. It's constantly being created, spent, and extinguished by all the millions of people living their lives.

    So you have a choice. Do you want to wait 30 years to save the $ for a new house then, or do you want to get to live in a new house prior to earning the $ to buy it?
     
  34. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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    If anyone is interested there is some interesting reading here:

    Nixon's Hoffa Pardon Has An Odor - tribunedigital ...

    The Hoffa Wars: Chapter One - moldea.com

    Richard Nixon's Secret Ties to the Mafia - ahabit.com
     
  35. <SLV>

    <SLV> Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    It's just another Ponzi scheme.

    I'm glad Scott Walker wrangled the public employee unions in Wisconsin. He could see that there was no way forward economically without taming that monster. All you have to do is look south into IL to see the alternative.
     
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  36. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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  37. gringott

    gringott Killed then Resurrected Midas Member Site Supporter

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    Two retired people [64 & 68] with a $1500 a month mortgage? WTF were they thinking? Car payments? WTF?

    A little late to be waking up [last October].
     
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  38. Hystckndle

    Hystckndle Daguerreotype Fanatic Site Mgr Site Supporter ++

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    Thanks Search,
    Same shite here,
    Fat ass pensions, double dippers too.
    Totally embarrassing to even read it.
    Thats the cream of the crop....

    For the millions of regular folks....give it a few years.
    Its a crisis. A big one. Lookit the sheer numbers of folks who will want to " retire ", no way can afford to, who will be, by society, retired.
    I predict a crisis.
     
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  39. Uglytruth

    Uglytruth Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    But if everyone is broke.............................. what is gold & silver worth?
     
  40. Unca Walt

    Unca Walt Midas Member Midas Member

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    Your life. :beer:

    Speaking of pensions... I have a question to put to the savvy folks here.

    To set it up: I invented a gadget that saved my company $4.6M the first year it was used. This was in 1988. I was awarded a clear plastic desk set with a picture of my wife in it, and a "Dinner For Two" at Skitch Henderson's restaurant, "The Bird And Bottle".

    LATE ADDED FAIRNESS EDIT:

    I would NEVER have invented it if I was not where I was.

    I now receive a pension from that company (IBM). And I do not feel in the slightest guilty for said pension and do not see my income as being a company "burden".

    What do youse think?
     
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