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The War On Cash And Then On Gold

Discussion in 'Topical Discussions (In Depth)' started by searcher, Dec 20, 2016.



  1. hammerhead

    hammerhead Not just a screen name Gold Chaser

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    Goes to show you what worth money is.
     
  2. HardTruth

    HardTruth Silver Miner Seeker

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    Money is just a vehicle for payment of taxes, goods, services. I don't idolize money, but I respect it . I am not a cheap person, but I am frugal . I always tip well but am usually not happy with restaurant food, because I feel it is often overpriced and not nearly as tasty as I could make at home, for much less money.

    Money, like many other things in life, { religions, sex, drugs, alcohol , gambling ,etc } can become a addiction. Our current system of paper money, isn't perfect, but it is a better alternative then a all digital currency, which is entirely monitored by a corrupt TPTB.
     
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  3. hammerhead

    hammerhead Not just a screen name Gold Chaser

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    I am not rooting for all digital in any way shape or form. I am pointing out some of the conveniences of using automation for our "money".
     
  4. mtnman

    mtnman Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter ++

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    Ya'll must be city folk. Out here in Rural America cash is King.
     
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  5. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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    Several years ago went shopping with a friend who was looking for a TV. He found one at Best Buy. This guy usually pays for everything with cash and this time was no exception. Don't remember the exact price but it was around $500. My buddy pulls out a roll of bills and hands the sales clerk 5 $100 bills. The clerk looked dumfounded. He literally had no clue what to do and called for a manager. Manager took care of the sale pretty quick. But the clerk was used to plastic. Probably never seen hundreds before. Not his fault - nothing wrong. Just the way it is.
     
  6. CrimsonGuardJay

    CrimsonGuardJay Silver Member Silver Miner

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    Never seen hundreds? Must be a very sad sack.
     
  7. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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    Don't know, didn't ask - don't care. We paid the bill, grabbed the TV and split.

    There are places that don't take hundreds - some that probably won't take fifties. No biggie.............just the way it is.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2017
  8. skychief

    skychief enthusiastic stacker Silver Miner

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    I'm finding that more places now refuse cash. I was trying to rent a car for the wife - I wanted to use my debit card, but the agent demanded that I have a bank statement and a hard copy of my phone bill or electric bill. (!???) I explained that we've gone paperless with the phone co. and SoCalEdison. I offered to pay for the rental with cash up front, but he said they don't accept cash!!

    I asked if there was any way we could conduct business but he said they will only accept a credit card - not a debit card. He asked me to leave!!! And I did. LOL. That was Enterprise Rent-A-Car, btw.

    I tried to upgrade my mobile phone at AT&T (walk-in) Store. Wanted to pay cash - nope - they no longer accept cash. Fortunately, they did accept my debit card.
     
  9. arminius

    arminius Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter ++

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    Like the War on Drugs, the War on Cash is a misnomer, it is a war on us. It is designed to keep us within their little commercial prison yard no matter where we are in the world, as in, total control. And talk about convenient, never having to interact with dirty cash, coins, bills. Again we are asked, actually coerced, to sacrifice our sovereignty to the alter of convenience. That's how they get us folks.
     
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  10. CrimsonGuardJay

    CrimsonGuardJay Silver Member Silver Miner

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    The only places I've seen that won't do them are like 7-11s and similar. A place that sells expensive electronics? Good lord.
     
  11. glockngold

    glockngold Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    If a car rental place was willing to do business by taking cash in advance...
    There would be an awful lot of 2017 sedans being sold for 500 bucks.
    Having a credit card gives them a chance to charge at least a portion of the loss if the car doesn't come back.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2017
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  12. CrimsonGuardJay

    CrimsonGuardJay Silver Member Silver Miner

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    Yeah that's the actual reason why. They aren't going to discharge the car without some form of collateral, and a drivers license is really not enough, they wouldn't be able to attack someone's credit score for example.
     
  13. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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  14. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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    China and Russia: Full Steam Ahead Towards a Cashless Society

    [​IMG]
    by Sprott Money
    Oct 19, 2017 11:12 AM


    China and Russia: Full Steam Ahead Towards a Cashless Society
    Posted with permission and written by Rory Hall, The Daily Coin

    We reported back in November 2016 –
    Cashless World: 1 out of 3 People Never Use Cash – fewer and fewer people understand the importance of using cash to protect themselves from an overarching government warlord. At the time, China’s use of digitized currency was growing at about 40% per annum. This means millions of people each year freely hand over their cash and opt to use their cell phone, online currency transfers or a plastic debit/credit card to make 100% of their purchases. We see this as nothing short of happily going into the gulag of digital enslavement.

    Today we learned China is taking another step toward being a cashless society. Not just any cashless society, but the largest populated nation on the planet. Please keep in mind this announcement is coming on the heels of China’s closest ally, Russia, announcing she would be issuing a crypto-ruble – Which is a digitized currency as well.

    Once these two nations go cashless that will be a huge blow to hard currency in circulation around the world.

    Yesterday,
    Cointelegraph reported that local news sources in Russia had been informed by the Minister of Communications, Nikolay Nikiforov, that President Putin has approved a plan for the issue of a “CrypoRuble.” There was no detail, however, on timeline and no any subsequent confirmation that we’ve seen. Coincidentally, or not, Nikiforov is quoted as saying “I confidently declare that we run (sic) CryptoRuble for one simple reason: if we do not, then after 2 months our neighbors in the EurAsEC will.” Source

    As ZeroHedge reported:

    In a story that seems to have gone largely unnoticed by the western press, the
    China Daily reported that the PBoC has successfully designed a prototype that can regulate its future supply of digital fiat currency.

    In a report, “PBoC inches closer to digital currency”, the newspaper stated that China’s central bank “has completed trial runs on the algorithms needed for digital currency supply, taking it a step closer to addressing the technological challenges associated with digital currencies, according to a top official associated with the project.”

    China’s has been preparing for digital currency since 2016. In June this year, the PBoC “finished several digital money trials involving fake transactions between it and some of the country’s commercial banks.” Given over-invoicing of imports and the shenanigans in the shadow banking/WMP sector, we suspect that the commercial banks took to these trials like proverbial flies to feces.

    The China Daily article goes on to suggest that, while there is no timetable, “China is likely to become the first country that would deploy a digital fiat currency.”

    Far be it for us to question the accuracy of the China Daily – which Wikipedia notes is often used as a guide to Chinese government policy – but we were expecting Sweden (already the world’s most cashless society) to be first. It has been widely reported that the introduction of an “e-krona” is being investigated by the Riksbank. Forbes noted last month that “The inquiry is expected to be finalized in late 2019.” It would not replace cash, which accounts for 1% of transactions in Sweden according to a recent BBC report, but operate alongside physical cash initially.

    So…while China expects to be first, it will be “some time before the currency goes public”. According to Di Gang, a senior engineer of the Institute of Digital Money at the PBOC, a number of concerns need to be solved like “managing risks and improving efficiency.” He added that “the government also needs to factor whether the public would use the currency.”

    We know the answer to that.

    Yes, although it would be much quicker if Chinese citizens could somehow use it to get their savings out of the country.

    Back to the serious work of the PBoC’s Institute of Digital Money. Yao Qian, the director-general no less, said that the successful simulation of money supply had paved the way for the central bank to become the future sole regulator and policymaker governing the value of digital currency. That sounded like a veiled explanation for the recent heavy-handed clampdown on Bitcoin trading in the Middle Kingdom. Indeed, the story notes that “Unlike Bitcoin or other digital money issued by the private sector, the digital fiat currency has the same legal status as the Chinese yuan.”
    Source

    This sounds like a rebuttal to bitcoin and other privately issued cryptocurrencies and a way for the Chinese government to begin the process of outlawing private cryptocurrencies. It’s not just another major step in moving to a cashless society, it’s a major step in attacking cryptocurrencies as they continue to gain notoriety.

    We have been arguing these totalitarian governments, like China, the U.S., Russia and most other governments, are not going to simply hand over the mechanism that produces their power and control. We are now seeing the first real steps by a major government to maintain their control and power through the issuance of currency. If the people want to enslave themselves through the use of digital currency, why wouldn’t the government be on board with that idea and fully assist the citizens in their desire to willingly hand over their sovereignty?

    Questions or comments about this article? Leave your thoughts HERE.

    China and Russia: Full Steam Ahead Towards a Cashless Society
    Posted with permission and written by Rory Hall, The Daily Coin


    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-19/china-and-russia-full-steam-ahead-towards-cashless-society


     
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  15. madhu

    madhu Silver Member Silver Miner

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    Who controls the central banks of China? The new world hegemony has the Chinese economy as the engine of economic growth. The electrons that power this new promise is another Ponzi scheme that has to overcome the international debt bubble of 70 plus years.

    The old Anglo American empire will have to quickly do whatever it takes to keep India as the driver of this block. The only problem is geography.

    The Doklam IndoChina stand off is just one symptom
     
  16. Po'boy

    Po'boy Midas Member Midas Member Site Supporter

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    Had my room mate pay rent in silver eagles, eat that cashless society.

    He asked do I get those at the bank?

    Lol.
     
  17. mtnman

    mtnman Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter ++

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    Wasn't there an attorney that paid his staff with $20 St. Gaudens. Paid them their rate with the value of gold and claimed face value of the coins for taxes?
     
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  18. Po'boy

    Po'boy Midas Member Midas Member Site Supporter

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    Not familiar with that.

    Eagles are in fact legal tender.

    Check US code
    31 5102 if I remember correctly.

    Or look on treasury website.

    Carl and I went a couple rounds over that.

    All over but the insults with the link to treasury web page.
     
  19. Po'boy

    Po'boy Midas Member Midas Member Site Supporter

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    Mtnman,

    I am not sure about that particular story.

    However eagles are in fact legal tender.
     
  20. Po'boy

    Po'boy Midas Member Midas Member Site Supporter

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    Mtnman skip to 4:20

    What is a dollar?

    Good stuff.

    Notice how few views by concerned citizens on the most important issue today.
     
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  21. oldgaranddad

    oldgaranddad Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter ++

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    This a common way to transfer money to family/children. The US Gold Eagles and US Platinum Eagles are indeed legal tender and the IRS begrudgingly has had to accept that fact. There is a whole cottage industry where Eagles (silver, gold, platinum) are rented for that exact purpose.
     
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  22. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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    Deleting Cash Is All About CONTROL The David Icke Dot Connector Videocast
    David Icke



    Published on Nov 10, 2017
     
  23. TAEZZAR

    TAEZZAR LADY JUSTICE ISNT BLIND, SHES JUST AFRAID TO WATCH Midas Member Site Supporter

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    Yes, Arminius, you are so correct !

    Chase bank DEMANDED my I.D. to put $400 cash, into MY account. I told them "this is bullshit" he said "I cannot accept your cash WITHOUT a photo I.D."

    We keep very little $$$ in the bank, for many reasons.
     
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  24. Joseph

    Joseph Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter ++

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    Well ... you have to take into consideration all those people who continually try to deposit money in other people's bank accounts. It happens to me all the time.

    I went to bank some time ago to cash a check. They made me put my thumbprint on the check. The next time I went to that bank, I stuck my thumb in a small puddle of super glue before getting out of the car. My thumbprint was like glass. Teller looked at it, never batted an eye ...
     
  25. latemetal

    latemetal Platinum Bling Platinum Bling

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    Ah come on, haven't you seen the T.V. shows where the cop is framed by the bad guy depositing $10,000 into his/her account, this must be prevented at all costs...(Sarcasm).
     
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  26. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Did you ask them if it was merely bank policy, or were they required by law to do so?
    ...and what they are trying to do is to make sure that it is you who is depositing into your acct. Chase, and possibly other banks, do not let anyone deposit cash into an acct that does not have that persons name on it.

    Chase.PNG


    It's just one more way of watching people that's been instituted while everyone's been sleeping.
     
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  27. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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    Big Brother's War on Cash
    RonPaulLibertyReport



    Streamed live on Oct 13, 2017
    Everyone is surely aware by now that all of our digital communications are being sent to government databases for storage. If our American ancestors could see it, they wouldn't believe their eyes. We still, however, have the ability to use cash. All of our economic decisions are not under constant government surveillance. Ron Paul discusses the dangers of Big Brother's War on Cash.
     
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  28. TAEZZAR

    TAEZZAR LADY JUSTICE ISNT BLIND, SHES JUST AFRAID TO WATCH Midas Member Site Supporter

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    BUT, for how much longer ???
     
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  29. arminius

    arminius Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter ++

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    @1.33, Credit is convenient.

    And again we sacrifice our sovereignty to the alter of convenience.
     
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  30. mtnman

    mtnman Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter ++

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    Until everyone has access to a smartphone. In other words, forever.
     
  31. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    That's the whole point. It's convenient to have a way to get things without paying for them at the time. It's also convenient to be able to pay later with less valuable inflated Dollars.
    ...but in time there comes a price for it too.

    Same as it ever was.

    Is but one of mankind's many imperfections, to seek the easiest path even if that path may eventually lead to his own detriment.
    ...and societies do it as a whole. Look how whenever any problem comes up, it's always the quick easy solution that ends up being nothing more than a band-aid that usually ends up making the problem worse. Never an in-depth analysis to determine a root cause and then taking action independent of popular political opinion, just knee jerk reactions.
     
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  32. TRYNEIN

    TRYNEIN Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    You may be thinking of this case here:

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    September 30, 2007


    Media Blackout:
    161 Federal Tax Charges, 0 Convictions

    IRS Suffers Staggering Defeat


    Tax Questions Raised Regarding
    Gold and Silver Coins Used to Pay Wages


    Around noon on Monday, September 17th, a Las Vegas federal jury returned its verdict refusing to convict nine defendants of any of the 161 federal tax crimes they had been charged with. The charges included income tax evasion, willful failure to file and conspiracy to evade taxes.

    The four-month trial centered around the family businesses of Robert Kahre who paid numerous workers for their labor with circulating gold and silver U.S. coins, and did not report the wages. The payments took place over several years, allegedly totaling at least $114 million dollars.

    On September 20, 2007, three days after the federal trial's dramatic conclusion, the Las Vegas Review Journal, reportedly under a degree of public pressure, ran its first (and last) story about the outcome of the trial. To this day, with exception of the single article by the Review Journal, no major media entity has published a news story regarding the outcome of this important federal criminal tax case.

    The censorship of this important news story is, unfortunately, not unexpected given the continuing, worldwide onslaught against the U.S. "dollar" -- specifically the Federal Reserve variety, and the ever growing numbers of Federal Reserve Notes required to trade for an actual ounce of silver, gold, oil, or for that matter, anything.

    In short, this failed prosecution has coalesced and exposed truths our Government desperately needs to hide from the People: the truth about our money, the truth about our (privately-owned) central bank, and the truth about the fraudulent nature of the operation and enforcement of the federal income tax system.

    Click here to read the April, 2005 DOJ press release announcing the prosecution.
    Click here to read the 9/20 story by the Review Journal about the trial.

    According to defense attorney Joel Hansen, who represented co-defendant Alex Loglia, the primary "willfulness" defense was that the defendants believed they had no legal obligation to withhold, pay income taxes or report anything to the government because, in part, the nominal (i.e., face value) of the gold and silver coins is so small as to fall beneath the reporting thresholds set by the Internal Revenue Code.

    The Defendants also argued that regardless of the valuation of the coins for internal revenue purposes, there is no law that requires average American workers to file or pay direct, un-apportioned taxes on the fruits of their labor.

    The Government argued that the payments in solid gold and silver U.S. coins must be considered at their bullion (i.e., intrinsic full-market) value when considering the worth of the wages for purposes of the internal revenue code.

    Attorney Hansen cited two Supreme Court cases bolstering Defendant's monetary argument at the heart of the defendants "willfulness" defense.

    The essence of the argument is that under the Constitution Congress is obligated by law to mint and circulate such coins as demand requires, and must establish the value of coins as they are used as legal tender, but the coins' market value, arising as valuable personal "property," is a distinct, separate attribute of such coins, and is of no legal consequence if the coins are used as legal tender.

    In other words, if a worker is paid with such coins, his taxable "income" (if any) can only be the face value indicated upon the coin money paid -- i.e., $1.00 for a circulating silver dollar or $50 for a circulating gold U.S. coin. Not surprisingly, the IRS has never issued any public guidance regarding this significant issue.

    The first case, Ling Su Fan v. U.S., 218 US 302 (1910) establishes the legal distinction of a coin bearing the "impress" of the sovereign:

    "These limitations are due to the fact that public law gives to such coinage a value which does not attach as a mere consequence of intrinsic value. Their quality as a legal tender is an attribute of law aside from their bullion value. They bear, therefore, the impress of sovereign power which fixes value and authorizes their use in exchange."

    The second case, Thompson v. Butler, 95 US 694 (1877), establishes that the law makes no legal distinction between the values of coin and paper money used as legal tender:

    "A coin dollar is worth no more for the purposes of tender in payment of an ordinary debt than a note dollar. The law has not made the note a standard of value any more than coin. It is true that in the market, as an article of merchandise, one is of greater value than the other; but as money, that is to say, as a medium of exchange, the law knows no difference between them."

    Defense attorney Hansen confirmed that members of the jury were able to actually hold and inspect the gold and silver U.S. coins paid to the workers.

    After almost four months of testimony and three and a half days of deliberation, the jury did not convict any of the defendants of any of the 161 crimes alleged. Although some defendants were acquitted of multiple counts, and several were acquitted completely, others may have to stand for a retrial if the Government brings charges a second time.

    The Review Journal reported the jury foreman claimed DOJ prosecutors admitted they were "shocked" by the outcome.

    In March 2007, the primary defendant, Bob Kahre, filed a federal civil rights lawsuit against the prosecutor and IRS agents who had conducted what he alleges to be an unlawful search and seizure raid. In 2005, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals refused to overturn a previous District Court ruling holding that the federal prosecutor is not entitled to absolute immunity for the unlawful raid. Read more.

    Click here to execute a Google News search to attempt to locate recent news stories about the Kahre tax trial.

    The media suppression of this story is similar to the widespread mainstream media suppression of the July 11, 2007 acquittal of Louisiana attorney Tommy Cryer who was also charged with multiple federal income tax crimes and relied upon numerous Supreme Court precedents and U.S. tax laws to establish his "willfulness" defense. Click here for a previous WTP update containing a link to Cryer's 100-page Motion to Dismiss which details his legal arguments.

    Click here to execute a Google News archive search to attempt to locate news stories about Tommy Cryer's tax trial.



    PLEASE NOTE: Following recent statements by the DOJ, most of the content of the WTP websites (including our on-line store) has been fully restored for public access. The "6700" case is currently being appealed to the Second Circuit Court of Appeals.

    History is made by those who show up and make it happen. Please help us continue our epic fight by making a donation. If we have no funds, the battle cannot be fought.

    To make a secure, tax-deductible donation to the WTP Foundation, please click here: Donation. You can make a one-time or recurring donation and can also establish the dates the secure transactions are processed each month.


    Update Related Links


    Access all the 6700 Lawsuit Filings and Court Orders.




    http://www.wethepeoplefoundation.org/UPDATE/Update2007-09-30.htm
     
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  33. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Then there's this
    ...and where is Kahre today?

    9th Circ. Upholds Vegas Businessman's Tax Fraud Conviction


    (December 5, 2013, 10:52 PM EST) -- The Ninth Circuit on Thursday affirmed the conviction and lengthy prison sentence of a Las Vegas businessman who attempted to avoid paying payroll and income taxes by paying his employees' wages in gold and silver coins, finding he had been given enough notice that the pay scheme was illegal.
    The appeals court denied Robert Kahre's bid to overturn his 2009 tax fraud conviction and 15 year-prison sentence, and also backed the convictions of his sister Lori A. Kahre and business consultant Alexander C. Loglia.

    The Ninth Circuit rejected their contention that their indictments should have been thrown out because they did not know their use of gold and silver coins for payroll payments was illegal under U.S. tax laws. Robert Kahre, who owned and operated six construction businesses in the Las Vegas area, also argued that the length of his sentence was excessive.

    Citing what it described as long-standing and consistent legal precedent, the Ninth Circuit said the trio had had “ample notice” that the payroll scheme was illegal. Prosecutors claimed Kahre's payroll scheme cost the government about $51.7 million.

    Robert Kahre, Lori Kahre and Loglia “had sufficient notice that their conduct was illegal under the tax laws,” the Ninth Circuit said.


    He required his employees to sign independent contracting agreements in hopes that it would shield him from criminal liability and cited the Gold Bullion Coin Act of 1985, which approved gold coins as legal tender, as the legal foundation for his payroll system.

    At trial, former employees testified that they were independent contractors in name only and that Kahre exerted substantial control over his workers. Kahre's employees were allegedly required to accept payment in gold and silver coins which were later exchanged for cash. Workers testified that Kahn did not give his employees W-2 forms reflecting their wages.


    The cases are U.S. v. Robert David Kahre, case number 09-10471, and U.S. v. Lori A. Kahre case number 09-10528 and U.S. v. Alexander C. Loglia, case number 09-10529, in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit.

    Full article at link.
     
  34. TRYNEIN

    TRYNEIN Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    I didn't have to look very far to find his flaw:

    finding he had been given enough notice that the pay scheme was illegal.


    The Ninth Circuit rejected their contention that their indictments should have been thrown out because they did not know their use of gold and silver coins for payroll payments was illegal under U.S. tax laws. Robert Kahre, who owned and operated six construction businesses in the Las Vegas area, also argued that the length of his sentence was excessive.

    ........................

    Translation: he was given plenty of opportunity to be coerced into FEDERAL jurisdiction.

    And furthermore... just why was a NOT GUILTY verdict appealed???





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  35. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Another flaw of his was that he paid people in Au/Ag US coin, but then immediately bought the coin back from them for cash. Ie: he was recycling the same coins over and over again. Had he actually treated the workers as true independent contractors and allowed them to walk out the door with the Au/Ag coins to do what they wished with them, he might have had a different outcome.
    ....but then they'd get him for violating minimum wage laws because unless he was paying $7.25 in ASE's per hour, he would then be in violation there. Problem is, in 2000 that would have come out to $25.75/hour in frns needed to purchase the ASE's in order to pay them. Not counting premiums. Minimum wage was $5.15 in 2000. Even if he paid more than min wage, I doubt he was paying everyone at least $25.75/hour.

    Edited to add:...and today it would require $125.28/hour in metal not counting premiums on ASE's
     
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  36. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    He appealed his guilty verdict.
     
  37. TRYNEIN

    TRYNEIN Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Thanks, I have not kept up with this story...

    Do you have link?
     
  38. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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  39. TRYNEIN

    TRYNEIN Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Thanks, it's been awhile since I last read this case and after re-reading it, it appears it was the 161 cases against the workers that the jury found not guilty...so they went after him.

    AND, obviously he didn't have to second half of education needed to fight the FED's jurisdiction claims.



    IMHO, THIS is the most important part

    TRCP----Rule 52.
    Alleging a Corporation
    An allegation that a corporation is incorporated shall be taken as true, unless denied by the affidavit of the adverse party, his agent or attorney, whether such corporation is a public or private corporation and however created
    .
     
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