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Trump's Tax Plan

Discussion in 'Politics Forum (Local/National/World)' started by searcher, Sep 27, 2017.



  1. hammerhead

    hammerhead Not just a screen name Gold Chaser

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    My point exactly. There is a never ending supply of digits. Just have to be creative sometimes.
     
  2. gnome

    gnome Platinum Bling Platinum Bling

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    Under GOP Plan, Wealthy Foreign Investors Benefit Nearly Three Times More Than US Taxpayers. This ain't MAGA.


    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
     
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  3. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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    Senate Passes Sweeping Revision of U.S. Tax Code
    [​IMG]
    The Wall Street Journal

    Richard Rubin, Siobhan Hughes
    27 mins ago





    WASHINGTON—The Senate passed sweeping revisions to the U.S. tax code past midnight Saturday after Republicans navigated a thicket of internal divisions over deficits and other issues to place their imprint on the economy.

    The bill, which included about $1.4 trillion in tax cuts, would lower the corporate rate to 20% from 35%, reshape international business tax rules and temporarily lower individual taxes. It also touched other Republican goals, including opening the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge to oil drilling and repealing the mandate that individuals purchase health insurance, which would punch a sizable hole in the 2010 Affordable Care Act. But some objectives, such as repealing the alternative minimum tax, fell by the wayside in last-minute wrangling.

    “In the end it all came together and we’re pretty excited about what we’ve been able to accomplish for the American people,” Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R., Ky.) said in an interview Friday. “We’ve got a corporate rate at 20% that we think makes us competitive in the world again and provided substantial middle-income tax relief.”

    The bill passed 51-49, with all but one Republican voting for it and all Democrats voting against. The sole Republican, Sen. Bob Corker of Tennessee, stated his opposition before the vote, citing worries it would expand budget deficits.

    The bill’s ultimate passage would mark a legislative victory for President Donald Trump and his fellow Republicans. Mr. Trump has made the tax overhaul a centerpiece of his economic policy goals, focusing on a rewrite of business taxes, which he has argued make the U.S. uncompetitive internationally. The bill could also give lawmakers something to campaign on in the 2018 midterm elections.

    Democrats blasted the bill, calling it an unacceptable giveaway to corporations and the wealthy. They also criticized last-minute Republican adjustments and waved handwritten amendments around the Senate floor to show how hastily the changes were being made.

    “A flurry of last-minute changes will stuff even more money into the pockets of the wealthy and the biggest corporations while raising taxes on millions in the middle class,” Sen. Chuck Schumer of New York, the chamber’s Democratic leader, said.

    The House and Senate still need to reconcile competing versions of the tax plan, something GOP leaders hope to do by Christmas. The House and Senate bills overlap in many ways, and lawmakers expressed optimism about getting a final deal done.

    “The bills are not all that different,” Mr. McConnell said. “We tried to move ours somewhat in the House direction.”

    Senate Republicans called their bill an economic booster shot, their best chance to create faster sustained growth and higher wages. But it comes with risks. Congress’s own nonpartisan analysis found that the economic benefits would be modest and fade over time.

    The Joint Committee on Taxation estimated that the tax cuts wouldn’t pay for themselves, as Republicans promised. Instead the analysis found they would increase deficits by $1 trillion over a decade, even after accounting for economic growth.

    Investors, for now, are more excited about the prospect of lower corporate taxes than about the risks associated with larger government deficits. The Dow Jones Industrial Average rose 673.60 points for the week, or 2.9%, to 24231.59. Yields on 10-year Treasury notes, which might be expected to rise if bond investors were worried about deficits, remain comfortably low, below 2.5%.

    Senators began voting on amendments late Friday night and that continued into early Saturday. They defeated, 29-71, an attempt by Sen. Marco Rubio (R., Fla.) and Mike Lee (R., Utah) to expand the child tax credit for low-income families, which would have been paid for by setting the corporate tax rate at 20.94%.

    Vice President Mike Pence broke a tie in favor of a proposal from Sen. Ted Cruz (R., Texas) to allow the use of 529 savings accounts to pay for elementary and secondary school costs, including private-school tuition.

    Saturday’s vote came after a week of long hours and frantic rewriting and deal-making. The GOP tax effort wobbled late Thursday after the Joint Committee on Taxation analysis raised the concerns of budget hawks about deficits. An attempt to add deficit countermeasures in the bill failed to clear parliamentary rules.

    Mr. McConnell and his team salvaged the measure with a series of last-minute deals to sway wavering senators.

    Sens. Steve Daines (R., Mont.) and Ron Johnson (R., Wis.) won bigger tax breaks for pass-through businesses such as partnerships and S corporations. Sen. Jeff Flake (R., Ariz.) secured more aggressive depreciation rules to encourage business investment after 2022.

    Sen. Susan Collins (R., Maine) scored a $10,000 deduction for property taxes, an expanded but temporary deduction for people with large medical expenses, and a promise of future bipartisan health-care legislation to mitigate the effects of repealing the individual health-insurance mandate.

    “This bill will provide much-needed tax relief and simplification for lower- and middle-income families, while spurring the creation of good jobs and greater economic growth,” Ms. Collins said.

    To help pay for some of those changes, Republicans increased a new tax on companies’ stockpiled foreign profits to 14.5% for cash and 7.5% for illiquid assets, from 10% and 5% in a previous version.

    Senate Republicans abandoned other goals. They preserved the alternative minimum tax instead of repealing it. They backed off a plan to abolish the estate tax. They retained seven tax brackets instead of collapsing them into three as planned. And after years of warning about the rising national debt and promising a tax overhaul that would be revenue-neutral, they chose to proceed despite warnings the measure would add to deficits in the long run.

    Lawmakers released the final changes—moving around hundreds of billions of dollars—a few hours before the last vote, and there was no updated analysis of the bill’s impact on taxpayers and the economy as Republicans moved toward voting on it.

    “The Republicans have managed to take a bad bill and make it worse. It was chock-full of special-interest giveaways before tonight,” Mr. Schumer said.

    The bill would overhaul much of the U.S. tax system in ways that tax experts are only beginning to understand.

    Mr. Trump and some Republicans set the 20% corporate tax rate as an immovable objective and despite some occasional doubts, the GOP stuck with it. That is a win for domestic retailers and manufacturers who have spent years building the political case for a lower tax rate.

    Pass-through firms, which pay their business taxes through individual returns rather than corporate returns, won major concessions. They would get a 23% deduction from individual rates. More than half of U.S. business income goes to pass-throughs, and more than half of that goes to the top 1% of households.

    Tax analysts said this deduction opens new and unprecedented avenues for tax avoidance, with individuals likely seeking to declare as much of their income as possible as lower-taxed business profits.

    Even in a bill that provides sizable tax cuts to many, some taxpayers are set to lose. The bill would prevent individuals from deducting state and local income taxes. That is likely to raise federal taxes on upper-middle-class wage earners in high-tax states, such as California, Connecticut, Maryland, New Jersey and New York. They are all represented by Democrats in the Senate.

    The standard deduction would be nearly doubled and the child tax credit would rise, while personal exemptions would be repealed. For many households, that combination would modestly increase the amount of earnings that aren’t subject to income tax.

    The bill also would push millions of households out of itemizing deductions. That would reduce the incentive to deduct mortgage interest and charitable contributions. But nonprofits, home builders and real-estate agents were unable to sway Republicans to reverse course on the measure.

    Debt-reliant businesses would lose, too, under a provision that limits interest deductions to 30% of income.

    Republicans said those changes were necessary to lower the rate and make other changes that would encourage investment in the U.S.

    “The reforms that we make in this bill allow American companies to compete and win against those other countries around the world,” Sen. John Thune (R., S.D.) said.

    —Kristina Peterson contributed to this article.

    Write to Richard Rubin at richard.rubin@wsj.com and Siobhan Hughes at siobhan.hughes@wsj.com

    http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...f-us-tax-code/ar-BBG1eq3?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=iehp
     
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  4. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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    House Republicans may balk at Senate tax bill changes
    [​IMG]
    USA TODAY

    Herb Jackson and Eliza Collins
    2 hrs ago



    Senate Republicans passed their tax bill early Saturday, so the next step will be a conference committee with the House to iron out differences with a bill that passed there on Nov. 16.

    Some of those differences are dollar amounts, with each chamber setting brackets and deductions differently. But there are also substantive differences that could face push-back from House members, particularly conservatives, that have to be resolved before a bill could reach President Trump's desk.

    According to an internal poll of the conservative House Republican Study Committee obtained by USA TODAY, members were most concerned that the Senate bill sunsets individual tax cuts after 2025, delays the reduction in corporate rates until 2019, and continues to charge a tax on high-dollar estates.

    The House could just pass the Senate bill and send it to Trump next week, but 97% of study committee members oppose that, and they're not alone.

    “We’re gonna go to conference unless the Senate makes unbelievable changes to their bill in the next few days,” Rep. Mark Meadows, R-N.C., who chairs the hard-line House Freedom Caucus, told reporters Thursday.

    Meadows said there did not seem to be any irreconcilable differences, however.

    “I’m very optimistic," Meadows said. "On a scale of one to 10, with 10 being the highest that tax reform gets done, I’m at a nine."

    He said he expected a bill on Trump's desk by the end of the year.

    But before that happens, here are some of the rough edges that must be smoothed out.

    Corporate rate delay
    One of the most significant sections of the bill is the massive tax cut for corporations. Both bills would take the top corporate tax rate from 35% to 20%. However, the Senate cut would happen in 2019, while the House bill would have the 20% rate kick in next year.

    When the Senate unveiled its bill last month, Wall Street reacted to news of the delay with a 100-point drop in the Dow Jones Industrial Average.

    Conservatives see no reason to delay what they believe will be an economic boom from cutting the corporate tax, and some worry about the impact on next year's midterm elections.

    "It would mean that the economy wouldn't improve like it needs to so we would lose the majority in the House and Senate, but the Democrats would take power just in time to take credit for the economy improving because of what the Senate did," Rep. Louie Gohmert, a hardline conservative from Texas, told reporters Thursday.

    Elimination of the estate tax
    Currently estates up to $5.5 million are exempt from taxes, but both the House and Senate bills would raise that number to $10 million, at least to start. However, the House bill would increase the exemption above $10 million each year after next year, and eventually eliminate the estate tax after six years.

    The Senate bill would leave the tax in place for estates over $10 million.

    While the estate tax disproportionately affects a small number of high-income earners, it has become a priority of Trump’s. At a tax event in Missouri this week, Trump said it would be helpful for “loving families” to help their children.

    "We want to make it easier for loving families to pass on their life's work to their children. Be nice. Be very nice, right?" Trump asked

    House conservatives are expected to demand elimination of what they call “the death tax” in its entirety.

    Repeal of the individual mandate
    The Senate includes a repeal of the Obamacare provision that calls for an IRS fine on people who do not purchase insurance. The House bill did not, but not necessarily because of pushback from members. Trump started pressing for it to be included in a tax bill after the House had already crafted its bill.

    Senate Republicans then included the provision in their tax bill and some moderates, like Sens. Susan Collins of Maine and Lisa Murkowski of Alaska, expressed concerns.

    The Congressional Budget Office estimated that within 10 years, 13 million fewer people would have insurance and those who buy it from government-managed exchanges would see rates increase by 10% a year because the pool of patients would be sicker as healthier people opted not to buy coverage.

    Collins and Murkowski were calmed by promises from Senate leadership and the president that Congress will advance a pair of separate bills intended to keep premiums down.

    Because the House passed a repeal and replacement of Obamacare earlier this year that included eliminating of the individual mandate, such a provision isn’t expected to get significant enough pushback to be removed. However, expect some moderate House Republicans to follow the example of Collins and Murkowski in calling for separate bills to stabilize the marketplace.

    And those bills will face pushback in the House where conservatives believe any subsidies are a bailout to insurance companies.

    Immigration
    Like the insurance promises that Collins and Murkowski got, Sen. Jeff Flake of Arizona voted for the tax bill in part because he was promised he would be part of a Republican effort to prevent deportation of undocumented immigrants who were brought to the United States as children.

    Flake did not say he was promised a bill to protect so-called "DREAMers" would be passed before the tax bill. But it is not clear the House would make passage of such a bill a priority at all.

    Sunset on individual rates
    Where the House bill made most of its changes to brackets, credits, deductions and rates for individuals and families permanent, the Senate bill imposes them only for five years, after which the current tax code would kick back in.

    That change, like the delay in the corporate reduction, was aimed at keeping the cost of the overall tax package from exceeding a $1.5 trillion limit set by the budget resolution adopted in October. It is something of a gimmick, since sponsors expect the tax cuts would be extended before they expire.

    But the so-called "sunset" provision was the No. 1 criticism of the Senate bill by the House Republican Study Committee members. But if the conference committee changes it, that could push the total cost of the bill over the $1.5 trillion limit.

    http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...-bill-changes/ar-BBG26zU?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=iehp
     
  5. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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    GOP eyes post-tax-cut changes to welfare, Medicare and Social Security

    [​IMG]
    The Washington Post
    Jeff Stein
    5 hrs ago



    High-ranking Republicans are hinting that, after their tax overhaul, the party intends to look at cutting spending on welfare, entitlement programs such as Social Security and Medicare, andother parts of the social safety net.

    House Speaker Paul D. Ryan (R-Wis.) said recently that he wants Republicans to focus in 2018 on reducing spending on government programs. Last month, President Trump said welfare reform will “take place right after taxes, very soon, very shortly after taxes.”

    As Republicans advocate spending cuts, they have frequently cited a need to reduce the national deficit while growing the economy.

    “You also have to bring spending under control. And not discretionary spending. That isn't the driver of our debt. The driver of our debt is the structure of Social Security and Medicare for future beneficiaries,” Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) said this week.

    “We're spending ourselves into bankruptcy,” Hatch said. “Now, let's just be honest about it: We're in trouble. This country is in deep debt. You don't help the poor by not solving the problems of debt, and you don't help the poor by continually pushing more and more liberal programs through.”

    The GOP tax bill currently under consideration in the Senate would increase the federal deficit by nearly $1.5 trillion over a decade, according to Congress's official tax analysts and multiple other nonpartisan analysts. When economic growth the measure could create is included in the analysis, Congress's official tax scorekeeper predicted the bill would add $1 trillion to the deficit over 10 years.

    Trump has not clarified which specific programs would be affected by the proposed “welfare reform.”

    During the presidential campaign, Trump vowed that there would be “no cuts” to Social Security, Medicare or Medicaid, although the president has reversed many of his economic campaign promises since taking office.

    The remarks from leading Republicans have fueled a growing fear among liberals that the GOP will use higher deficits — in part caused by their tax bill — as a pretext to accomplish the long-held conservative policy objective of cutting government health-care and social-service spending, which the left believes would hit the poor the hardest.

    “What’s coming next is all too predictable: The deficit hawks will come flying back after this bill becomes law,” said Sen. Ron Wyden (D-Ore.), the ranking Democrat on the finance committee. “Republicans are already saying 'entitlement reform' and 'welfare reform' are next up on the docket. But nobody should be fooled — that’s just code for attacks on Medicaid, on Medicare, on Social Security, on anti-hunger programs.”

    On the Senate floor Thursday night, Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) asked Rubio and Sen. Patrick J. Toomey (R-Pa.) to promise that Republicans would not advance cuts to Medicare and Social Security after their tax bill. Toomey said that there was “no secret plan” to do so, while Rubio said he opposed cuts to either program for current beneficiaries. However, neither closed the door to changing the programs for future beneficiaries.

    “I am not going to support any cuts to people who are on the program and need those benefits. But I want this program to survive,” Toomey said. To which Sanders responded: “He just told you he's going to cut Social Security.”

    Many conservatives have long argued for cutting and changing social safety net programs, arguing that anti-poverty programs have failed and that Social Security spending is growing at an unsustainable rate.

    Still, members of both parties have long been reticent to cut benefits, especially for seniors, due in part to the potential political cost of doing so. And in discussing changes, Republicans, including Rubio, have largely confined their ideas to plans that would affect new beneficiaries, rather than current ones.

    Still, it may be particularly difficult for Republicans to push those measures ahead of the 2018 midterm elections, in which many in swing states and districts face well-funded Democratic challengers hoping to ride an anti-Trump wave into office.

    http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...cial-security/ar-BBG1mXp?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=iehp
     
  6. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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    Sweeping tax reform PASSES the Senate: GOP scores major victory in 11th-hour vote for $1.5 TRILLION bill after Democrats said they had no time to read the 500-page, 'scribbled' small print
    • The Senate approved a sweeping tax overhaul in the early hours of Saturday
    • Vote passed by 51-49 as Democrats voted in bloc and one Republican opposed
    • Vice President Mike Pence announced passage at 1.51am to a round of applause
    • Final alterations to the bill were still being made late in the evening on Friday
    • Democrats claimed they didn't have time to read bill and tried to adjourn vote
    • Victory moves Donald Trump one step closer to slashing taxes for businesses
    • Democrats say tax overhaul will add $1.4 trillion to national debt over 10 years
    • Republicans insisted changes will be revenue-neutral as tax cuts spur growth


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5138469/Republicans-defeat-Democrat-plea-adjourn-tax-vote-500-page.html#ixzz506EPKkSr
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
     
  7. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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    GOP Tax Bill is Even Worse Than We Think
    Posted on December 2, 2017 by Yves Smith

    Yves here. This nightmare of a tax bill just passed the Senate, and we’ll learn more about what was actually in it in the coming days since a lot of pork to buy particular votes was thrown in at the last minute. This Real News Network segment gives an overview.



    AARON MATÉ: It’s The Real News, I’m Aaron Maté. Senate Republicans say now have the votes for what would be a historic tax bill and it would be historic for many reasons. It’s been called the largest ever transfer of wealth to the very top in U.S. history, and it’s also been called the largest ever US tax increase. That’s because while corporations and millionaires will benefit the most, some 24% of the country would see their taxes actually go up. All tolled, the measure would add $1 trillion to the federal deficit. I’m joined now by James Henry, investigative economist and lawyer, senior advisor at The Tax Justice Network.

    So James, by the time many people see this interview, it’s quite likely that this tax bill will already have passed. If so, what have the Republicans done here?

    JAMES HENRY: Well, we don’t know in particular because they’re still writing the damn thing. I mean, this is Friday evening and you are probably going to run this on Saturday, after they pass it, or don’t pass it, but they’re literally still making it up. In fact, Senator McCaskill of Missouri, to find out what is in the final bill had to go to a K Street lobbyist, and the lobbyists on Kay Street in Washington are notorious for writing these bills, and she came up with a long list of about 30 amendments that they were proposing that the Democrats have never been told about.

    This whole thing has been written in secret. There have been no hearings. It’s the largest tax bill in 30 years, and yet you can smell a rat here because of the way the Republicans are going about this, holding negotiating sessions with their own Senator Corker on the floor of the Senate. Sticking in provisions at the last minute to favor parochial school tuition. It’s just a comedy, if it wasn’t so sad.

    This is indeed one of the largest wealth transfers to the top 5% of the country. As far as we know at this point, first of all the bill provides for a deep reduction in the corporate nominal income tax rate from 35% to 20%. Most big companies don’t pay that. They have a lot of their assets offshore but they’re going to be able to continue to play offshore tax games and many of them are going to benefit substantially for the reduction in tax that applies to the 2 trillion offshore that they’re going to try to bring back.

    Secondly, this does nothing about a host of problems we’ve identified like carried interest. It does nothing to really upgrade the quality of tax enforcement. It continues what’s called “the pass through treatment” and expands that tax treatment for many businesses and individuals.

    So on the whole, the analysis that we’ve been able to do so far, and this is going to literally take weeks to redo this after we get the final details, shows that at least 70% of the benefits of this bill go to the top 5%. Basically, the donors to the Republican Party.

    AARON MATÉ: Right. The number I saw from the Tax Policy Center was 80% of the benefits go to the top 1%. What about the middle and lower classes? How is it that a, what’s billed as a $1.5 trillion tax cut will actually increases taxes for so many people?

    JAMES HENRY: Well first of all, the tax rates for individuals will be phased out. Any changes in those tax rates for individuals will be phased out after 2025, after which they will begin to go up. Because we expect to see a trillion dollars in added debt from this bill, they certainly will have occasion to do so.

    Second, just the way the bill is written. There are a lot of deductions like mortgage interest and the state and local income taxes that many middle class people take advantage of. We just don’t know how those will work out but it’s quite possible and quite likely that the actual after tax effects for millions of individuals will be negative. So, what is absolutely clear is that the beneficiaries of this bill are mainly the top 1%.

    AARON MATÉ: Can you give us just some micro-examples of how say, a lower or middle class person could be impacted? I’ve seen people just in my Twitter feed complaining about what this means for them, especially freelance workers, people who work from home. Talking about deductions that they rely on, are going to go and what the income that they take home is going to be way less than it is now.

    JAMES HENRY: Well, this is going to affect lots of people in very, very different ways depending on the situations because it basically gets rid of a lot of the itemized deductions that people have been able to count on for self-employment in the interest of supposedly standardizing the income tax. That’s going to introduce a lot more inequality in the tax system. It is going to affect many middle class people who are working as independent contractors.

    Secondly, one of the big things that they’re doing here, is repealing the Obamacare, charge on Obama, that’s going to affect millions of Americans who have been counting on Obamacare. They’re going to see their health insurance rates rise. If they’re going to pay for this thing without increasing the debt, they’re going to have to cut Medicare. There’s a talk about a $300 billion reduction in Medicare. So, this is going to really impact a lot of ordinary Americans.

    The only ones who can really count on benefiting from the bill are the people who are supporting the K Street lobbyists. The Apples, the Googles, the Microsofts. The big, major multi-nationals who are going to get a one day tax cut on their offshore wealth that they’ve stashed and also many other multi-nationals, and Wall Street, which is, you’ve seen Wall Street stock rise just this week in response. Major banks here are going to have a tax holiday.

    AARON MATÉ: James, it’s been amazing for me to watch just how Republicans aren’t making much of an effort to hide that fact. There’s that famous quote from Senator Lindsey Graham, the Republican, where he said that,”if we don’t pass this tax reform, the financial contributions will stop.”

    JAMES HENRY: I mean, that’s pretty blatant. I think they’re worried about running out of time because they’re facing the November 2018 elections. They have a President who, to say the least as we saw in today’s news on Flynn, makes it clear is in trouble. And, they want to be able to say to their donors, “at least we did something during the last two years.”

    So, this is a very unpopular bill. At least 62% of the American people are opposed to this tax plan, even before they know what’s in it. They know enough about it to know that it stinks and they’ve seen the process being worked behind closed doors, and there’s every indication that the people who are writing this bill do not have their interest at heart.

    We’re in an economy where we already have pretty full employment. Most of the economists I talk to, don’t expect this to accelerate growth very much, if at all. In fact, the idea of paying for tax cuts for the rich with federal borrowing or deep spending cuts for the poor and the middle class is just the opposite of what you’d like to do if you want to stimulate the economy.

    So, all things considered, this is a horrific bill that can only be explained by the fact that the people writing it are representing not us but their donors.

    AARON MATÉ: James this is a tangent, but just briefly. When you say that economists, why they believe that we have full employment. The unemployment rate is pretty low but isn’t it also true that that figure does not account for all the people who just simply just stopped looking for work?

    JAMES HENRY: It does, and there are efforts to take account of that. I think even when you make those adjustments and look at people who have dropped out of the labor force, for economic reasons those numbers are still quite low compared to where they were. It’s not satisfactory by any means but compared with where we were over the last decade or so, under the Obama administration I think it’s fair to say that the employment, job situation improved considerably. And it has continued to do so during this first year of the Trump administration.

    So, I don’t think anyone denies that the economy’s operating at a pretty tight rate. We don’t see inflation rising yet but no one’s making the case we need tax cuts in order to stimulate economic growth except these Republican donors.

    AARON MATÉ: Okay right, so then two questions then: the first is even assuming that this bill passes tonight, when do you think we’ll actually know the full extent of what’s in it? And also, if there have been economic gains in recent years, certainly we have rebounded from the worst of the financial crisis, although not totally obviously. Do you think that this tax bill is seismic enough to undo whatever benefits have happened in the past few years?

    JAMES HENRY: Well, it’s going to hurt some very specific people very hard. I think the low income people who are counting on health insurance. Elderly people are going to see some tax rates increase for odd reasons. They are big users of the state and local deductions and many people who live in places like New York or relatively high tax states, that are high tax for good reason, we tend to take care of people better than states that don’t use taxes and progressive taxation.

    But I think it’ll take some time to know exactly what’s in the bill because in the next stage they have to reconcile this Senate bill with whatever is in the House bill, and it’s not clear that they’re going to be any more open about that negotiation over the next few weeks than they have been up to now.

    So, I think by the time we get to see what’s actually been done to us it’ll be some way down the road. But it’ll be plenty of time for us to do the detailed analysis that’s required. I’m a betting man, I believe that the odds are that when we do the numbers we’ll find out if anything, it’s even worse than we suspect right now. That’s in a way, good news for the progressives, in the November 2018 election, because I think what we can try to ensure, is that this is the last time the Republican Party is ever able to do this to the American people.

    AARON MATÉ: James Henry, investigative economist and attorney, also senior policy advisor with The Tax Justice Network, thank you.

    JAMES HENRY: Thanks very much.

    AARON MATÉ: And thank you for joining us on The Real News.

    This entry was posted in Banana republic, Income disparity, Politics, Ridiculously obvious scams, Taxes, The destruction of the middle class on December 2, 2017 by Yves Smith.

    https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2017/12/gop-tax-bill-even-worse-think.html
     
  8. Ensoniq

    Ensoniq Midas Member Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    Still 7 brackets, still an AMT, still the death tax

    But

    The lynchpin that will collapse obozocare is present and the corp,tax rate is reduced
     
  9. Ensoniq

    Ensoniq Midas Member Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    In short Dems don't want tax cuts for taxpayers. They want more wealth transfer from the earners to the free riders
     
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  10. southfork

    southfork Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    Crafted by the rich for the rich with a few scraps to the dying middle class
     
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  11. gnome

    gnome Platinum Bling Platinum Bling

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    Most of the middle class gets screwed by this.
     
  12. Scorpio

    Scorpio Скорпион Founding Member Board Elder Site Mgr Site Supporter ++

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    for those that refuse to get it,

    trillions of your dollars are overseas, parked by mega corps like apple

    does that help you? No, they just continue to screw you. You have your iphone? You paid 5-6-800 bucks for some phone? The profits from that sale are sitting overseas complements of you. In the end it is a 2 buck widget.

    the list is endless of how it has been brought upon ourselves.

    you continue to buy stuff from Amazon? You too are once again complicit and don't friggin' get it.

    then to bitch about the tax cuts going to the rich? Who do you think actually pays the majority of the taxes?

    the tax rate isn't the problem, it is the spending. These same middle to low earners are the biggest users of the system. Unemployment, SSI, welfare, medicaid, housing int deduction, etc. Again long list of sucking off the system. Then you have roads, utilities, etc to maintain their standard of living.

    this whole thing is a mirage anyway,

    the dems bitch they did not have time to read the doc. Sound familiar??????

    dems in and you get kenyan care
    pukes in and you get tax cuts for corps

    meanwhile the societal decay deepens,

    keep buying your iphones, stare at the shiny shitcoin, or watch stocks march ever higher
    maybe it will take the sting away of what is really up,

    smoke and mirrors gentlemen, nothing has changed,
     
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  13. nickndfl

    nickndfl Midas Member Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    This is where the fun begins. Tax cuts mean that taxpayers get to keep more of their own money. All the nonsense from the haters is subterfuge because everybody knows spending cuts are next!

    That's where special interests should be cut to the bone. If anybody has ideas of where to begin, let me start with eliminating OBamaphones which made Mexican national Carlos Slim at one time the wealthiest man in the world.
     
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  14. gnome

    gnome Platinum Bling Platinum Bling

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    Nah, you won't see a penny of that.
    The cuts will cover the $1.4 trillion hole in the budget to pay for the tax cuts for corporations and very wealthy.
     
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  15. Krag

    Krag Planet earth Platinum Bling

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    Stockman:

    During more than four decades in Washington and on Wall Street it is quite possible that we never picked up any useful skills. But along the way we did unavoidably acquire what amounts to a survival tool in those fair precincts—-namely, a nose for the con job.

    And what a doozy we have going now as a desperate mob of Capitol Hill Republicans attempts to enact something—anything— that can be vaguely labeled tax reform/tax cut. And for a reason that lies only slightly below the surface.

    In a word, they are scared to death that the political train wreck in the Oval Office will put them out of business for years to come. So they are attempting to erect a shield of legislative accomplishment that can be sold in 2018 as the work of the GOP Congress, not the unhinged tweet-storm in the White House.

    To the contrary. The GOP tax bill is of the lobbies, by the PACs and for the money. Period.

    There is no higher purpose or even nugget of conservative economic principle to it. The battle cry of “pro-growth tax cuts” is just a warmed over 35 year-old mantra from the Reagan era that does not remotely reflect the actual content of the bill or disguise what it really is: Namely, a cowardly infliction of more than $2 trillion of debt on future American taxpayers in order to fund tax relief today for the GOP’s K-Street and Wall Street paymasters..............................................................

    We will complete our debunking of the GOP tax con tomorrow, but for the moment consider the case of the world’s single greatest company—-Apple Inc. It starkly illustrates why the above claim that 4,700 companies have moved production abroad owing to high tax rates is just plain nonsense.

    For purposes of simplification, Apple has a product sourcing department and a tax planning department. The former has moved production and jobs abroad for economic reasons that will not change owing to the GOP tax bill; and the latter department has moved the company’s tax books to low rate havens in Ireland and elsewhere for, well, tax avoidance reasons.

    Since Apple’s effective tax rate owing to the aggressive and creative work of its tax planning department is already about 20%, the new GOP tax regime will have little effect except to extract a one-time 5% levy from the $185 billion of notional cash that Apple has stashed in off-shore tax books (actually most of the actual cash is in New York and other US based banks). The whole thing is a pure paper chase.

    On the other hand, Apple’s sourcing department contracted-out virtually all of its massive gadget production to Foxconn, which produces exclusively in China and employs upwards of 1.1 million workers. And the reason for that is labor rates which are perhaps 10% of the fully loaded cost (including payroll taxes and fringe benefits) of producing iPhones and iPads in California, Arizona or Wisconsin.

    Needless to say, the Senate will not change this massive labor cost gap, either. Apple will only bring jobs back to the US if some state government is foolish enough to pay them a giant subsidy to close the gap.

    In short, US companies have off-shored their tax books because they can. Thanks to favorable tax rulings over the years this has been made all the easier by blatant but legal sheltering devices—-such as having an Irish subsidiary own the technology patents and charge the US tax entity a stiff royalty for using them.

    But as we will show tomorrow, Apple is no outlier. The overwhelming share of production and jobs which have been off-shored—such as IBM’s 130,000 workers in India—have happened for economic reasons which far outweigh any impact of the statutory tax rate.

    At the end of the day, the GOP tax bill boils down to borrowing more than $1 trillion from the American public in order to pay higher dividends to wealthy private stockholders.

    And that’s a real con job.
    https://www.lewrockwell.com/2017/12/david-stockman/debt-taxes-growth-and-the-gop-con-job/
     
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  16. southfork

    southfork Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    So Gop fucks the middle class to give to rich and corporations, DEMs fuck middle class to give to lowlifes that wont work and pad their pacs with donations
     
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  17. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    How does the middle class get f'ed? As was pointed out above, it's the upper classes who already pay the Lion's share of the tax bill.

    Why shouldn't the ones paying the biggest amounts get the biggest breaks?

    Uncle Sam has become a spendthrift like none other.
    ...and needs to have his addiction to OPM treated.

    Taxes.png

    Taxes2.PNG
     
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  18. gnome

    gnome Platinum Bling Platinum Bling

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    THE GOP PLAN IS THE BIGGEST TAX INCREASE IN AMERICAN HISTORY, BY FAR

    Ryan Grim

    December 1 2017, 10:07 a.m.
    Photo: Saul Loeb/AFP/Getty Images
    THE TAX BILL moving its way through Congress is routinely referred to as a $1.5 trillion tax cut. And, in some ways, that’s true: on net, it would reduce the amount of taxes collected by the federal treasury by about $1.5 trillion over 10 years.

    But that figure masks the eye-popping scale and audacity of the GOP’s rushed restructuring of the economy. Most immediately, the plan will take a large chunk out of state and local revenue that isn’t factored into that total. But more broadly, the bill cuts taxes by a full $6 trillion over a decade.

    Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., said Friday afternoon Senate Republicans have the votes to pass the plan, which gets referred to as only a $1.5 trillion cut because it raises $4.5 trillion in taxes elsewhere. But the key question is who gets a tax hike and who gets a tax cut. Put simply, the bulk of the tax cut is going toward the rich, while the tax increases go to everybody else.

    And so the bill, properly described, is two things: the largest tax cut — and also the biggest tax increase — in American history.

    Republicans have spent years describing the Affordable Care Act as the largest tax increase in U.S. history, ignoring the fact that the tax increases were balanced out by subsidies to pay for health coverage. In that respect, the ACA was a significant transfer of wealth from the top to the middle and bottom, which earned it the ire of the GOP. But all told, it raised less than $1 trillion in taxes over 10 years to pay for all that. The relative stinginess, in fact, is what fueled its unpopularity, as premiums and deductibles remained too high. But what Republicans lambasted as a historic tax hike represents just one-fifth of the tax increase of the new GOP bill.

    Where’s that money going?
    The Tax Policy Center estimated that about 80 percent of the benefit of the tax plan will go to the top 1 percent, who will enjoy the following elements of the tax cut:

    A full $1.5 trillion alone is going to slash the corporate tax rate. CEOs have said repeatedly they plan to pocket that money rather than invest it or give workers higher wages.

    The alternative minimum tax, paid almost exclusively by the rich, is also eliminated. That’s a $700 billion giveaway.

    Another $150 billion goes to repealing the estate tax, which currently exempts the first $11 million of the deceased’s estate, so nobody even remotely middle class pays it. The repeal benefits so few people you can practically list them out.

    More than $200 billion in cuts goes to a provision that allows a greater deduction for dividends on foreign earnings. That’s not for you.

    Roughly $600 billion goes to reducing taxes on “pass-throughs” and other businesses not set up as corporations, which law firms, lobby shops, and doctors’ offices often benefit from. Poor and middle-class people do not tend to set themselves up as pass-throughs.

    Under current law, many tax credits phase out at low-income thresholds. The GOP plan changes that by raising the threshold so richer people can also claim the credit. That provision alone is, by definition, a $200 billion tax cut for the wealthy.

    Individual and family tax rates are cut by about $1 trillion, and some regular people will indeed see some of that money as a tax cut — but not much. As the New York Times noted, by 2027, people making between $40,000 and $50,000 would see a combined increase of $5.3 billion in taxes. Where would that money go? Folks earning more than $1 million would see their taxes collectively cut by $5.8 billion a year.

    The list above brings the total well close to $5 trillion in tax cuts almost exclusively for the wealthy. The last major element of the bill, the doubling of the standard deduction, would benefit a broader range of people, but it comes at the expense of states, cities, and towns.

    Where does the money to pay for all of this come from?
    While Obamacare was a transfer of wealth from the top to the bottom, this bill sends money back the other way.

    Even some of the ways the plan “raises” taxes on the rich wind up being a tax cut. Some $300 billion is raised by allowing companies who stashed profits offshore to repatriate it at a much lower rate. That repatriated cash will go straight to dividends for shareholders and stock buybacks — but it gets counted as a tax increase, which then allows the GOP to give an equal $300 billion cut on the other side of the ledger. It’s neat how that works.

    The bill raises $1.6 trillion by repealing the personal exemption everybody gets on their tax returns. Getting rid of it across the board is extraordinarily regressive, since it gives the same benefit to the likes of Jared Kushner as it gives to people who have much less money than he does, so they’re hit much harder.

    It raises another $1.3 trillion by going after deductions for state and local taxes, mortgage interest, charitable contributions, interest on student loans, medical expenses, teachers’ out-of-pocket expenses for paper and pencils for students, and a bunch of other nickel-and-diming of the middle class. No change drawer in the car, couch cushion, or plastic piggy bank is going untouched in the hunt for money to pay for the tax cut.

    (The state and local deduction is effectively a subsidy for state and local spending on things like schools, roads, and police departments. Removing that will pressure states and cities to cut spending, so future teacher layoffs at your neighborhood school will be used to pay for the tax cuts, but because that happens at the state and local level, it isn’t factored into the Congressional Budget Office or Joint Committee on Taxation analyses.)

    The plan gradually raises $128 billion in taxes by changing the way inflation is tabulated, so that your taxes slowly creep up over the years as the brackets come down.

    And then, of course, the plan adds about $1.5 trillion to the debt over 10 years. That gets you most of the way to $6 trillion, with a handful of smaller tax hikes thrown in, some of which won’t obviously hurt the middle class. The domestic production deduction, a $96 billion boondoggle, is repealed, for instance, and $54 billion is saved by ending the credit for testing cures for rare diseases.

    House Speaker Paul Ryan, R-Wis., went on NPR on Friday morning to try to defend the largest tax hike in American history.

    “What does it say that — in practice according to independent analyses, I mean you do have winners and losers, not everybody gains, businesses gain, people with large estates to leave to their heirs gain, high-income people gain — but a lot of middle-income people do not gain in terms of money,” NPR’s Steve Inskeep said.

    “I disagree with that. The average tax cut for a middle-class family is going to be $1,182,” Ryan responded.

    Inskeep pushed back. “Lily Batchelder of New York University took some numbers from the Joint Committee of Taxation, bipartisan part of Congress as you know very well, and concluded that something like 100 million households in this country under the House bill, and even more under the Senate bill, would either get no tax cut or would get a tax increase,” Inskeep said. “Does that sound right to you?”

    It didn’t sound right to Ryan.

    “No, it doesn’t sound right unless it’s a person that’s not paying taxes already,” he said. “I think some people are cherry picking statistics.”

    Top photo: US Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, Republican of Kentucky, speaks about tax reform on Capitol Hill in Washington, DC, November 30, 2017.
     
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  19. Ensoniq

    Ensoniq Midas Member Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    Ya think?

    Microsoft pays 35% of whatever they can't shelter

    My "c" Corp pays 39.4% and has few shelters

    I'm going to enjoy the new 20% rate. I'll probably get some new equipment and give the people (including me) a pay bump

    But I'm sure I'm the only one in the US thinking this way so maybe you're right
     
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  20. Krag

    Krag Planet earth Platinum Bling

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    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/02/...ol-top-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-top-region

    In a democratic society of elections, elected officials representing the will of the people, bills should get enacted to represent their will for a more sound government system to benefit all for a better society. This bill undermines all that.

    Those who felt the surge of energy and positive vibes from the 1% and the corporations to vote for this monstrosity will experience the wheel of karma falling back on them in due time. There could be a plebiscitary revolt as other countries have endured where contemptible politicians, plutocrats and the richest get either vigilante types of justice or face criminal trials. That eventuality makes a lot of sense from the standpoint of real justice. Those who have suffered much as the self-employed trying to comply with the tax code are outraged by the contortions and subterfuges of these corrupted politicians.

    Justice is coming and I hope that the same people backing this will have to suffer their people when the chickens come home to roost.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2017
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  21. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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    How your tax bracket could change in 2018 under Trump's tax plan, in two charts
    [​IMG]
    Tech Insider

    Elena Holodny
    4 hrs ago
    • Income tax brackets could change in 2018 if tax legislation is enacted under President Donald Trump.
    • The Senate's bill proposes keeping seven tax brackets but changing the income ranges, while the House's version of the bill would reduce the number of tax brackets to four.
    • Both plans propose eliminating the personal exemption and increasing the standard deduction.
    House and Senate Republicans have taken two different approaches in their attempt to overhaul the US tax code by releasing separate proposals with sweeping changes.

    The House previously passed their version of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, and Senate Republicans voted to pass their own tax legislation early Saturday.

    GOP leaders have the said the next step is to bring both bills to a conference committee, where they will combine the two versions into one final bill. President Donald Trump has said he wants tax reform on his desk by Christmas.

    Business Insider put together two charts showing how both the House's tax plan and the Senate's tax plan could change federal income-tax brackets in 2018 compared with those in 2017.

    First, for single filers:

    [​IMG]© Provided by Business Insider Inc 11 15 17 single tax brackets current house senate

    And second, for joint filers:

    [​IMG]© Provided by Business Insider Inc 11 15 17 married jointly tax brackets current house senate Under the House's plan, there would be four federal income-tax brackets rather than the seven we have today. The brackets proposed are 12%, 25%, 35%, and 39.6%.

    The Senate's version would keep seven brackets but at slightly lower rates and adjusted income ranges. The brackets proposed are 10%, 12%, 22%, 24%, 32%, 35%, and 38.5%.

    About 70% of Americans claim the standard deduction when filing their taxes, and their paychecks will almost certainly increase — albeit slightly — if tax reform passes.

    In 2017, the standard deduction for a single taxpayer is $6,350, plus one personal exemption of $4,050.

    The House plan would combine those into one larger standard deduction for 2018: $12,200 for single filers and $24,400 for joint filers.

    Under the Senate proposal, these would be slightly lower, at $12,000 for single filers and $24,000 for joint filers.

    http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/taxe...in-two-charts/ar-BBEOWYI?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=iehp
     
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  22. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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  23. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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  24. Ensoniq

    Ensoniq Midas Member Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    The senates 7 brackets are flatter and better for taxpayers than the 4 the house put forth
     
  25. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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    ‘I don’t think it’s going to help’: In a pro-Trump area, many voters are skeptical of GOP tax plan

    [​IMG]
    The Washington Post
    By Jenna Johnson
    12 hrs ago


    STERLING HEIGHTS, Mich. — On a busy weeknight at the 5 Star Lanes bowling alley in this Detroit suburb that voted heavily for President Trump, there was little excitement about the Republican plan to cut taxes.

    A 60-year-old retiree bowling with a group of girlfriends said she’s tired of the middle class having to pay more so the wealthy can become even wealthier. A few lanes away, a middle-aged woman with frizzy gray hair said that the more she hears about the plan, the more she hates it. And a group of young guys in matching shirts said they didn’t even know the proposal was in the works, although they seemed skeptical that their taxes would ever go down in a meaningful way.

    Ron Stephens, a 49-year-old Republican who works in purchasing for the auto industry and wrote in Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Tex.) for president, said he doesn’t expect to benefit under the proposal. Any gains he might make thanks to a tax cut would probably be washed out by changes to other deductions that he usually takes, he said. And don’t get him started on cutting the corporate tax rate from 35 percent to 20 percent, as the Senate bill passed early Saturday does.

    Here in the Detroit suburbs and across the country, many voters say they view the Republican tax plan as simply a giveaway for the rich that will benefit only a small number of people in the long run. Trump and prominent members of his party promise that the cuts will spur economic growth — leading to more jobs and better pay — but many voters say they are skeptical that will actually happen.

    Polls consistently show that more Americans oppose the tax plan than support it — including, most recently, a Quinnipiac survey in November that showed that for every two people who disapproved of the plan, only one supported it. That poll found that fewer than 1 in 6 Americans expect their taxes to be reduced, while more than twice that many expect their taxes to go up. When it comes to just Republicans, a third expect to personally get a tax cut.

    And although Republican leaders have hoped that passing the package will help their chances in the midterm elections next year, polls have also found that their proposals are far less popular than those introduced during George W. Bush’s administration. In October, a CBS News poll found that 70 percent of Americans didn’t think the tax bill should even be a top priority.

    At the bowling alley, there was some support. Jeff Johnson, 58, said he expects that most middle-class families will see a cut of some sort, but he is most excited to see the corporate tax reduced, which he says will greatly help small businesses in Michigan. For years, Johnson ran his own company making commercial signs. He now works for a larger company that does the same thing.

    “People always point to the rich, rich, rich — but that’s a small number of people. It’s mostly mom-and-pops,” said Johnson, a Trump supporter who shared a pitcher of beer with friends as they played.

    A few miles away at Art and Jake’s Sports Bar, two local business partners were practically giddy at the idea of the corporate tax rate going down. Jeff Hinsperger and Mark Matheson own the World Class Equipment Co. in Shelby, which builds robots to work in automobile manufacturing plants. Both voted for Trump.

    Business has been booming — although they said they have struggled to get the financing needed to do all the job requests they receive. With more cash from paying less in taxes, they said, the company could finance more on its own, allowing them to hire more employees and invest in even more equipment.

    “Everyone thinks business owners are greedy,” Matheson said. “We’re not. We’re the ones with everything at risk.”

    Sitting across the bar that night were two other businessmen who were in town for work — one from Indianapolis, the other from Tennessee, both longtime Republicans. Neither of them expect to benefit from the tax cuts, and they’re skeptical that cuts for corporations will really trickle down to them. Both scoffed when asked whether members of Congress or the president care about the middle class.

    Many interviewed in Michigan last week said the tax plan seems aimed at further dividing the wealthy from everyone else.

    “They’re not looking out for the middle class,” said Andrew Stewart, 30, a former hair stylist who works as a restaurant server while he’s studying to become an occupational therapist. “The separation between the middle class and the upper class, it’s growing, and I don’t think it’s a coincidence. . . . It’s easier to control people when they’re under your thumb.”

    Stewart supported Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) for president in the primaries and believes Sanders was robbed of the Democratic nomination. He voted in the general election for Jill Stein of the Green Party, which he doesn’t regret — although he disapproves of how Trump is running the country.

    “I feel completely unrepresented,” he said, while studying at a local Starbucks. “I don’t feel like I’m represented at all. It’s just a sad time in American history.”

    Lee Johnson — a 63-year-old from Flint who is retired from working for the school district there — said that if the middle class really stood to benefit from this tax plan, Republicans wouldn’t have worked behind closed doors and rushed to pass it. Johnson voted for Hillary Clinton for president, although he considered her “the lesser of two evils.”

    As Johnson has watched interviews with Republican lawmakers, he said, he has noticed that they can’t answer this simple question: “Is this going to help the middle class?”

    “I don’t even get upset anymore, because they’re not going to listen,” said Johnson, who traveled to Sterling Heights on Wednesday to do some Christmas shopping at Lakeside Mall. “They don’t care. There’s nothing else to say. They just don’t care.”

    Getting lunch in the mall food court that afternoon was Mike Papastamatis, a 33-year-old dentist who is a partner in a local practice and expects his tax rate to fall about 10 points if the “pass-through” deduction is increased. While that will benefit him, he said the practice is fully staffed right now and there’s no need to expand.

    And it bothers him that his employees and some of his relatives won’t benefit in the same way and could even be hurt. His parents were longtime employees at the local General Motors plant, and his mother recently asked him how the tax plan would help her.

    “I said, ‘I don’t think it’s going to help,’ ” said Papastamatis, a father of two young daughters who is an independent. “For the middle class, who they’re always talking about helping, it doesn’t seem to help.”

    A couple miles away at Nicky D’s Coney Island restaurant, Patrick Colley finished up lunch. The 59-year-old Teamster, who hauls cars, said he’s excited to finally see lawmakers talking about tax cuts for the middle class and to have a president who understands guys like him. He expects to benefit, although he isn’t sure by how much, and he hopes younger workers making much less than him are able to benefit even more.

    But he worries that “there’s too much gray about the wealthy” in this tax plan.

    In some ways, he thinks cutting the corporate tax rate will help small businesses — such as an automotive tool company owned by one of his friends who had to move some of his work overseas and is eager to bring it back to the United States. Changes such as that could snowball and help the economy, he said, but he’s not convinced that major corporations such as the one he works for will pass along the benefits to their employees, because they “are in the ‘not caring’ mode.”

    He’s frustrated that the wealthy get so many advantages, such as access to the best health insurance and tax breaks not available to everyone.

    “It’s depressing, you know? It’s depressing. I pay like 30 percent [in taxes], and I’m a regular guy. It’s not fair. And a millionaire pays like 12 percent,” he said. “It’s not fair. It’s not fair at all.”

    http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...-gop-tax-plan/ar-BBG7wac?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=iehp
     
  26. Po'boy

    Po'boy Midas Member Midas Member Site Supporter

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    I am betting the fully read the whole text of all bills before voting on them.

    I am also sure restoration of the founders intent of the people's right to own their labor was omitted by our leader's.
     
  27. CrimsonGuardJay

    CrimsonGuardJay Silver Member Silver Miner

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    The tax reform act has passed. Now not only does the irs not have the authority to pursue anyone for any penalty per the aca, the penalty is permanently repealed altogether. It’s game over for Obamacare. The only people on it from now on will be ri
     
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  28. EO 11110

    EO 11110 He Hate Me Mother Lode

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    leftists, and their state income taxes, are being exposed. of course they are going to spill a lot of ink trying to convince flyover country they are getting the shaft. just like the relentless killary is a lock to win crap.

    fading all of that with both hands
     
  29. CrimsonGuardJay

    CrimsonGuardJay Silver Member Silver Miner

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    In all seriousness, this constant “this is going to fuck the middle class, this is going to fuck the middle class and it’s just for the rich” thing is getting old as fuck.

    No, it’s not. It lowers the effective tax rate for people in middle income by a third, and does nothing to help households that make $500k and higher.

    Shut the fuck up.
     
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  30. Po'boy

    Po'boy Midas Member Midas Member Site Supporter

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    Big deal the fine is gone.

    The real discussion is why superman won't push for restoration of individuals rights to their labor.

    No go smoke that ya butt hurt douche.
     
  31. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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    Really not called for. We all have opinions, especially when it comes to politics. And believe me...........most people here would think I was stone nuts if they found out what I think of certain politicos.

    I try to see both sides of anything political. But in the end I would rather look at what some one actually does instead of him / her flapping their political gums. It seems to work for me.

    That being said here's a few from the local paper.

    Trump's no populist - just clownish and mean | E.J. Dionne
    http://www.philly.com/philly/opinio...nn-fbi-indictment-tax-bill-mean-20171204.html

    Why the Republicans are passing a tax plan they know is flawed | Editorial
    http://www.philly.com/philly/opinion/editorials/republican-gop-tax-plan-senate-trump-20171204.html
     
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  32. solarion

    solarion Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    Fiddling with the tax(theft) rates always gets people's blood up. Someone's always concerned someone else is going to get more of the stolen loot than they...or that someone else will have less stolen from them.

    At this point I'd just like to see the federal beast starved to every extent possible. Starved of revenue, starved of votes, starved of support...the federal regime should just whither and die as quickly as possible.
     
  33. tigerwillow1

    tigerwillow1 Silver Member Silver Miner

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    Just that cut and dry??? Is there something about simple math I don't get? Take a married couple with no other dependents. Adding $12k to the standard deduction is boasted about. Losing $8,300 of personal exemptions doesn't seem to get mentioned much. That makes the net deduction benefit $3,700, not the $12k that's widely advertised. The marginal rate reductions aren't huge. The final effect is that anybody who would have had much more than $16k in itemized deductions pays higher federal tax. If you want to argue that middle class people don't have that much in itemized deductions, just get a few dental implants on top of your real estate tax, state income tax, and medical insurance premiums, and you can go through $30k itemized pretty fast. Yes, I know about the personal credit that partially offsets the personal exemption limitation, but it conveniently is on a phaseout schedule.
     
  34. CrimsonGuardJay

    CrimsonGuardJay Silver Member Silver Miner

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    I’m not butthurt, not one fucking iota. The penalty is gone, and we pay less in taxes. Liberals will scream and bitch about it all the way to the gates of hell and back.

    ...but you have a point, here shouldn’t be any income tax at all. We all know it’s illegal and against the constitution. Your labor is meant to be yours, only corporate profits are income.
     
  35. CrimsonGuardJay

    CrimsonGuardJay Silver Member Silver Miner

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    Here: http://taxplancalculator.com/

    I’ve run around 10 different scenarios and all of them resulted in either a decent tax savings, or a hell of a tax savings. For me and my wife, it’s a large amount.
     
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  36. CrimsonGuardJay

    CrimsonGuardJay Silver Member Silver Miner

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    I like the way you think, chief.
     
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  37. tigerwillow1

    tigerwillow1 Silver Member Silver Miner

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    The house and senate tax bills are just redistributions. Whatever goes into one person's pocket comes out of somebody else's. Anybody who takes the standard deduction now comes out better. Some who itemize come out better, and some come out worse. When I run my last year's numbers through the calculator, it says how much I lose and "You aren't helped by the bill's higher standard deduction since you itemize.". There's also the issue of the inflation adjustments switching to an index that understates actual inflation even more than the currently-used index, so every year that higher standard deduction is worth a little less. If the honest goal was to really lower taxes, they could have (1) Just lowered the marginal rates, or (2) Raised the marginal bracket breakpoints, or (3) Increased the standard deduction without taking away anything, or (4) Let the new and old system run in parallel with the taxpayer getting to choose, and so forth. Many ways to do something where nobody gets hurt, but they chose to pick some pockets to fill the others. I'm in a state where they follow the federal rules for income and deductions, so anybody who pays more federal tax will also get hit for more state tax. One group that gets hit hard is those with high medical bills. They've been getting screwed by the obamacare rates and deductibles for a few years, and now they get taxed more for the money they're getting screwed out of.
     
  38. edsl48

    edsl48 Silver Member Silver Miner

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    Why should there be deductions for interest and taxes to begin with? Just lower tax rates across the board and eliminate all deductions. . THe heck with the real estate industry. Let them stand on their own two feet for a change.
    While we are at it lets eliminate all those refundable credits offered to the FSA breeders whose sole purpose in life is to breed more individuals just like themselves that creates welfare spending that increases at exponential rates.
    Eliminate the medical deductions. People should feel the full effects of Obamacare that perhaps might wake them up to the realities of life with a resultant effect of getting them off their a$$es and voting for a change.
    I could go on forever but I think you get my gist...don't structure the taxation system into just another social engineering project.
     
  39. Ensoniq

    Ensoniq Midas Member Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    Because it's double taxation

    you shouldnt have to pay taxes on money that you didn't get to keep

    I'm for no income taxes and starving the Federal beast but double taxation is particularly offensive
     
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  40. searcher

    searcher Mother Lode Found Site Supporter ++ Mother Lode

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    :beer:
     

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