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Tulving, the aftermath from 3.4.14

Discussion in 'PM Dealer Feedback' started by BeefJerky, Mar 4, 2014.



  1. About.Ag

    About.Ag Seeker Seeker

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    The problem is that it looks like he started doing this in early 2011 or earlier, back when the bull market was in full swing. If I had been running his business, I likely would have put all my profits into buying more inventory. He likely was putting all his profits for several years into this (he was dealing with A-Mark at least as far back as 2008). He may have been thinking "Wow, instead of expanding my inventory by $300,000 every month, I can expand it by $3M every month!" And not realizing the ramifications.

    So the house of cards starts to fall around August, 2011. Perhaps rather than just sell it all back, he tried to keep onto it all as long as he could, paying margin payments every so often (which would come from customer funds, which would then cause further delays).

    And in or around April, 2013, when everything fell apart, it may have been due to a last-ditch effort to fix things (such as COMEX options, or some new dealings with A-Mark, perhaps 0% down deals).

    Remember, Hannes was likely not thinking "My investment in silver/gold is going down! I'd better sell and go short.", instead he was likely thinking "How do I keep my inventory? Without it, I could end up losing my business."
     
  2. southfork

    southfork Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    Cant blame A-Mark for Tulvings losses, hes an adult and made his own decisions, I lost 200k plus in the dotcom bust and 911 trading on margin , I cant blame Ameritrade for that it was my decision, greed cometh before the fall. BTW it was the last time I traded on margin, learned my lesson well.
     
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  3. About.Ag

    About.Ag Seeker Seeker

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    There are some major differences.

    The SEC regulates Ameritrade, and the CFTC regulates commodities futures. The SEC and CFTC know who the exchanges, brokers, and major players are, and regulate them (to whatever extent). These forward contracts sold by A-Mark are unregulated; the CFTC likely had no clue about Tulving until the complaints started coming in (months after the damage was done).

    Ameritrade knew you were risking some unknown portion of your life savings. A-Mark knew (not "should have known" -- *knew*) Tulving might be risking the life savings of hundreds or thousands of people.

    Ameritrade also doesn't know who you are. Sure, in seconds they can look up the information in your file. But I believe the law is clear about exactly what information they must collect about you. A-Mark, however, knew exactly who Tulving was: he was a major competitor of theirs, a major customer of theirs, likely a small supplier at times, and a debtor (those are all in addition to being a forwards customer). His sales figures were common knowledge in the industry (as was the fact that he was recovering from a major stroke).

    If he was selling $30M of metal a month and one day put 5% down on a $50M gold position, they should have know that was a totally inappropriate position (e.g. pure speculation) that he could not afford. Remember, too, it had to have been a large contract for A-Mark, not some under-the-radar deal.

    This wasn't a case of Tulving and A-Mark working out some deal to benefit both parties allowing them both to properly hedge. This was a product marketed for many years by A-Mark, that benefits A-Mark, that is NOT appropriate for many circumstances. If Tulving were to get a $20M order from Sprott for 1M oz of silver paid in monthly installments based on today's spot price, the A-Mark contract would be a tremendous help. But for normally operating conditions, how can a massive position on margin benefit a dealer like Tulving (other than speculation)?

    It would be nice if we knew more details (R. Todd Neilson, the bankruptcy trustee, likes to keep his cards close to his chest, and A-Mark not surprisingly is refusing to comment). Knowing the dollar amounts of positions in late 2011 and April, 2013 would go a LONG way to helping determine if A-Mark should be held responsible for this. But how in the world could Tulving lose $40M or so unless there was huge margin, huge dollar amounts, and huge metals positions involved?

    ADD: Also, Ameritrade making a mistake would risk losing you as a customer. A-Mark making a mistake would not only risk losing Tulving as a customer, but also risk losing 1,000s of potential customers (Tulving customers whose orders were never filled, or filled late, who are all potentially valuable customers of A-Mark). That doesn't change whether or not they should be responsible, but ought to have factored into their decision-making process.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2014
    Silver likes this.
  4. About.Ag

    About.Ag Seeker Seeker

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    Coins seized by Secret Service worth $3M

    Here's the latest news: the coins that the Secret Service seized and said appeared to be 'worthless' turned out to have an appraised value of just over $3M. That includes 22 pallets of boxes of coins (graded/ungraded, non-bullion and bullion), but does not include coins that were in a safe (which presumably were mostly bullion, but it may have been nearly empty).

    That also does not include the 250,000-or-so coins that A-Mark is storing that were the property of Tulving, but A-Mark has a lien on. A-Mark has not yet submitted their Proof of Claim form, and has refused to comment on how much they are owed or how much the coins they are holding may be worth. If the value of the coins A-Mark has is worth more than what A-Mark is owed, the creditors should get the difference. It's a shame that A-Mark won't provide information (that WILL become public) that would help creditors better understand the assets that may be recovered.

    As reference, I have been estimating about $40M or so in total claims. However, to date, there have been only about 96 claims totaling about $4.2M filed as of yesterday morning. R. Todd Neilson, the bankruptcy trustee, has not yet provided any indication of how many creditors they believe there are or how much the total owed may be. However, what really matters is how many creditors end up filing Proof of Claim forms, as they will be the only ones able to receive money.
     
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  5. About.Ag

    About.Ag Seeker Seeker

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    Customer List to be Sold

    Here's the latest:

    The trustee wants to sell/auction the customer list. An extra $150K to customers would certainly be nice.

    Remember, though, this customer list isn't just the list of people owed money; this is a list of over 12,600 customers, as well as sales journals. In other words, something like:

    John Jones, 1234 Main St., Hollywood, CA 91234, 203-555-1212, January 18 2005, 2000 Silver Eagles, $12,760
    John Jones, 1234 Main St., Hollywood, CA 91234, 203-555-1212, March 25 2008, 1000 Silver Eagles, $8,546
    John Jones, 1234 Main St., Hollywood, CA 91234, 203-555-1212, April 13 2008, 1000 Silver Eagles, $8,742

    Picture your name, address, and phone number in that list. As far as we know, anyone who ever ordered from Tulving will have their data sold.

    There is a law (363(b)(1)) that helps prevent problems like this. Essentially, if a privacy policy existed at the time of the bankruptcy, there are protections in place (e.g. making sure that the buyer needs to abide by Tulving's privacy policy, or a privacy ombudsman believes the sale is appropriate).

    The trustee stated that "The Trustee is unaware of any consumer information privacy policy." So he intends to skip those protections, which would allow the buyer to legally re-sell that information to boiler room operations (or thieves even). I believe most Tulving customers were well aware that Tulving intended to keep the information private. For example, he made it clear that he did not want the information that might be given out if he took credit cards, he made it clear that he did not report any purchases to the government, and he had many pages that stated the privacy policy on them (e.g. http://tulving.about.ag/bullion/silver_90_percent_junk_us_50_cent_coin_bags.htm that stated "Privacy Policy... We have no commissioned salesmen looking at your records. We have no telemarketers. We do not sell your private personal information to 3rd parties. We only use the personal information that is provided to us to serve our customers and to complete our business transactions.").

    So I thought I should ask: are there any people here who ordered from Tulving who thought they had somehow disclosed a privacy policy, and would prefer your information be protected?
     
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  6. Someone_else

    Someone_else Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Re: Customer List to be Sold

    Yes. In December 2004, I specifically asked about this. Clipped from the email:
    Me: "Also, can you tell me with whom you share your sales information?"
    Hannes: "We share the info with no one."
     
  7. anywoundedduck

    anywoundedduck Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Tulving personally assured me anonymity on my purchase. This is very disturbing news.
     
  8. Grandpa Silver

    Grandpa Silver New Member Seeker

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    Totally against this action taking place!
     
  9. gringott

    gringott Killed then Resurrected Midas Member Site Supporter

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    The fallout continues. Again, grateful I did my due diligence and passed on considering him for my purchases.
     
  10. About.Ag

    About.Ag Seeker Seeker

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    Re: Customer List to be Sold

    The catch is I'm not quite sure what the next step is. Normally, I would shoot an E-mail to the Trustee and let him know that Tulving did indeed have a Privacy Policy, but he has requested I not contact him. And, this is a bit different than most of the previous bankruptcy issues, that just affect creditors (the ~200-1,000 that are owed money), whereas this affects all previous Tulving customers.

    One thing to note is that the law is clear that it only affects privacy policies that were in place at the time of the filing, and "disclosed." I'm not sure exactly what "disclosed" would mean, whether it simply means that an unwritten internal policy wouldn't count, or whether there would be issues since Tulving didn't have a separate page with the privacy policy (or have it on the page where you order). But in any case, it definitely seems like something that the trustee needs to address.
     
  11. About.Ag

    About.Ag Seeker Seeker

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    Re: Customer List to be Sold

    Good news.

    Word apparently got to the trustee, who has withdrawn the motion, due to "concerns subsequently raised in respect to the proposed sale."

    I assume this means that the trustee is going to look into the privacy issues (as required by law). My guess is the most likely outcome would be a clause added to the contract that prevents disclosure to third parties. The other interesting piece would be to see if that causes the sales price to go down -- if so, it would suggest that the buyer had intended to sell the data.
     
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  12. Ensoniq

    Ensoniq Midas Member Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    I'd imagine that "word apparently got to the trustee" means the guy wised up and follows your posts ;)

    You're playing a huge public service role here About AG

    KUDOS
     
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  13. About.Ag

    About.Ag Seeker Seeker

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    Tulving Seen

    Hannes Tulving, Jr. appeared at a court deposition today.

    That's about all I know at this point, but it was certainly a big surprise, as he had been avoiding depositions previously. It does mean that he is alive and well, and while likely still in hiding, he is likely much less concerned than he was before about being arrested. And it means that he is almost certainly in the United States.
     
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  14. luckabuck

    luckabuck Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    He must no longer fear being put under arrest, or he would not have shown in public. People accused of criminal activity no longer fear the legal process if they have high priced lawyers.
     
  15. Silver Buck

    Silver Buck Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    This is a less than accurate statement. I understand where your bitterness toward Tulving comes from, but you were made whole and he is having to go through the judicial system. If you believe that Tulving is a crook (he's only being accused of being one at this time) and that not only high priced lawyers but also holding positions of power grants you immunity, you missed out on the Tom Noe Coingate Scandal:

    Coingate

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coingate_scandal

    Excerpt:

    "A rare coin investment fund has attracted particular scrutiny after it was reported that two coins worth more than $300,000 had been lost. Further investigation then revealed that coins worth $10–$12 million were missing and that only $13 million of the original $50 million invested could be accounted for. Tom Noe was convicted of running a criminal enterprise, the theft of $13 million from the fund, and of keeping a second set of books to cover for it."

    Trial and Conviction

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coingate_scandal#Indictment.2C_trial_and_conviction

    Excerpt:

    "On November 13, 2006, Noe was found guilty of theft, money laundering, forgery and corrupt activity, and the central charge that carries a ten-year mandatory minimum sentence: that he engaged in a pattern of corruption in his management of Ohio's $50 million rare-coin fund investment with the bureau.

    On November 20, 2006, Noe was sentenced 18 years in state prison and ordered to pay fines and restitution. He was fined $213,000, ordered to pay an estimated $3 million for the cost of the prosecution, and ordered to pay restitution to the Ohio Bureau of Workers’ Compensation for the money missing from the rare-coin fund, estimated at $13.7 million
    ."

    Thomas W. Noe

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Noe

    Excerpt:

    "...is an Ohio Republican party fundraiser and activist, guilty of money laundering for the 2004 Bush-Cheney campaign and of theft and corruption in the "Coingate scandal". A longtime resident of Toledo, Ohio, Noe is a former member of the Ohio government in the United States and has had an impressive array of jobs and positions within the government of Ohio and even the federal government. He was also a prominent Republican party fundraiser and was actively involved in politics, serving as chairman of the 2004 Bush-Cheney election campaign in Northwest Ohio and a former chairman of the Lucas County Republican party, also in Ohio. Apart from his political activities Noe was also an avid coin dealer and owned various coin dealing companies, such as Capital Coin and Vintage Coins & Collectibles, as well as their subsidiaries."

    Even having Presidential connections couldn't save Tom and his wife Bernadette:

    http://www.marieclaire.com/world-reports/news/white-collar-crime-wives

    Excerpt:

    "She fled to her winter retreat, a $5 million oceanfront mansion in Key Largo

    IN THE SPRING OF 2005, Bernadette and Tom Noe convened an emergency family meeting at their daughter's Toledo, OH, home to break some grim news to their kids: The Feds were investigating Tom, a rare coin and collectibles dealer, for campaign-finance improprieties. As Tom explained the allegations, Bernadette's cell phone rang. "We're at your house with a search warrant," barked the FBI agent on the other end. "Be here in five minutes, or we'll bust the door down." Bernadette huddled with Tom and decided she'd go alone — he needed to have his lawyer present. She threw back a Xanax on the way over, which, she says, muted the humiliation that came when the band of grim-faced agents frisked her — herself a lawyer and daughter of a judge — then ransacked the house. Later, they hauled away boxes of personal items, including pricey collectibles her husband had given their kids: a set of Harry Potter figurines autographed by J.K. Rowling, a strand of Marilyn Monroe's hair. Bernadette's mind reeled as they rifled through her underwear drawer. I've never even had a parking ticket. Why are they looking at me like that?

    It had been a spectacular downfall for the Noes, once fixtures in Ohio's society pages, thanks to their fundraising efforts on behalf of George W. Bush's second presidential bid. They were such big shots that Bernadette even scored a nickname from the president — "Bernie" — and danced at both of his inaugural balls. But in 2005, their privileged lives imploded after authorities accused Tom of laundering $45,000 to the Bush campaign. Not long after, he was implicated in the theft of $13 million from an Ohio investment fund. The media went to town, vilifying her husband. "It was horrible," Bernadette recalls, smoothing her pencil skirt. "I could have crawled into a hole or jumped off my balcony."
    "

    So you see, having high priced lawyers, positions of power and influence, and great political connections were not enough to protect Tom Noe from the legal process. He is about 8 years into an 18 year prison sentence.

    Even helping deliver Ohio to George W wasn't enough to save his hide.

    Let's see how things shake out with Tulving before passing judgement.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2014
  16. blueice

    blueice Gold Chaser Platinum Bling

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  17. About.Ag

    About.Ag Seeker Seeker

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    I believe that is the only thread Kitco allowed, but they were censoring that one left and right. I was a bit surprised that in the first 8 posts there were no "Last modified:" marks, but:

    [1] In the 8th post there was already a reference to a post in the thread that Kitco deleted (there is no direct evidence of deleted posts/threads).
    [2] That same post violates copyright law and at least 2 public (versus the unpublished policies) Kitco policies (quoting more than is allowed, and not attributing the source), yet was allowed by Kitco.
    [3] The quoted-but-deleted post (that quoted my site) was originally posted with proper attribution. The infamous Kitco modeator ynot2k (a/k/a You-Post-It-I-Edit-It -- in early 2011 there were 4,880 hits for 'last edited by ynot2k' in Google) edited that post and REMOVED the properly attribution. So it was someone authorized by Kitco that violated their own copyright rules.
    [4] When I complained to a Kitco employee, that post was then edited again to include proper attribution.
    [5] At some point later, a Kitco employee or volunteer AGAIN removed the attribution (after which this 8th post quoting it was posted)
    [6] At some point later, a Kitco employee (or possibly volunteer) deleted the entire post.

    So you can see that Kitco puts in a massive amount of resources into molding their forums to their liking. There were a number of other posts in that thread that were edited/removed, and even entire other threads on Tulving that were removed. One of the deleted posts, for example, said "Class action suit contact I found. http://about.ag/tulving.htm" -- by deleting that, Kitco interfered with the Class Action lawsuit against Tulving, making it less likely to succeed (as they had fewer signed statements than they otherwise would, if Kitco had not deleted the post).

    Further, remember that this thread was started in January -- and it looks like Tulving took over 100 orders after that post and before they finally shut down. Had Kitco employees handled the situation well (e.g. [1] simply not moderating at all may have worked fine, or [2] at the very least not violating their own rules, or [3] moderating only when necessary), the Tulving fiasco likely would have ended sooner, and there would be fewer creditors out there.

    When I do not know is the extent that Kitco edited/deleted Tulving posts before January, 2014. It is quite possible that there is a lot more that we do not know about -- I have proof that Kitco has a list approved by management (called a "no-fly" list, in reference to the Government list used to help keep terrorists at bay) that includes direct competitors (which Tulving is).

    It is unclear if Kitco was simply doing this to drive business away from Tulving and to Kitco, or doing it to get people to focus less on Tulving's impending bankruptcy (as Kitco was, and still is, in bankruptcy), or for some other reason.
     
  18. blueice

    blueice Gold Chaser Platinum Bling

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    AA, your observation is right..

    It was for this reason why I never joined and selected GIM...
     
  19. About.Ag

    About.Ag Seeker Seeker

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    I recently discovered that Hannes is in negotiations with the United States Attorney Department for the District of North Carolina relating to the potential criminal charges against him. So the fear of arrest must be gone.

    Not only that, but he was out in public another time last month, to get paperwork notarized to allow him to sell a promissory note owned by a company he started in 2006. The note was originally valued at $900,000 (when he sold a property he had previously purchased through the company), and estimated to have been worth around $800,000 at the time he sold it.

    And the official tally as to how much Tulving customers are owed, according to customer records (although it could change): $18,671,529.98.

    There are other tidbits of information that have come up, but that pretty much summarizes what has been discovered over the past month or so.
     
  20. lhslancers3270

    lhslancers3270 Banned

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    No one can make me believe this sob didn't duck a boatload or two.
     
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  21. Silver Buck

    Silver Buck Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    It all looks the same in the melt bucket...
     
  22. Krag

    Krag Planet earth Platinum Bling

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    Thanks for some of the Noe story. I spoke to a dealer for Heritage Auctions who remembered of him showing up at coin shows with bricks of $100 bills to buy high end coins for the state fund. The Bush's had a lot of very shady "free traders" connected to them like the Enron people; my guess is that 9/11 and Mid East wars had something to do with trying to take the heat off of them on to "the terrorists".

    Anyone know what the specific federal guidelines are based on the size of corporate malfeasance?
     
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  23. Silver Buck

    Silver Buck Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    I have no idea, but I do find it a bit curious that W. didn't give Tom a pardon.

    Perhaps it was because Tom was prosecuted at the State level?
     
  24. Krag

    Krag Planet earth Platinum Bling

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    I was thinking of Tulving in terms of what the federal guidelines are in terms of his corporate malfeasance?
     
  25. About.Ag

    About.Ag Seeker Seeker

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    Part of the problem is that we know little about the extent of any corporate malfeasance. Really all we know is that [1] there were hundreds of instances of orders taking more than 28 days to be delivered (if at all), violating commodities law, and [2] he shut down with liabilities exceeding assets.

    The biggest issue is #2 (the people that did not get their metal would have been much happier if they did), yet as far as I know, being insolvent (bankrupt) is not by itself a crime (people don't go to jail because a business went bankrupt, unless there are other issues).

    As for #1, that's a technicality. The law is there (IMO) to prevent companies from selling unregulated futures. But if people pay 100% of the purchase price and expect to get the shipment within a few days (or weeks), customers aren't buying futures. Should someone go to jail for because orders were not shipped fast enough (again, assuming no other issues)?

    So to me, the real question is *what happened*? Did Hannes spend a couple years draining money out of the company to buy a private island for himself? Did he lose it gambling on the price of gold? Did he make a mistake hedging, and enter an order for 200 contracts of gold (20,000oz) while hedging instead of 2 contracts (200oz)? Did someone rob the joint one night? Did he not hedge when he should have, losing $10 here and $100 there until it added up to millions?

    And we have very little in the way of answers here; the Chapter 7 Trustee either has some clues or hasn't gotten around to looking at them yet, but either way hasn't divulged much. The Department of Justice likely knows much of what happened, but there could be serious repercussions if anyone divulged that information.

    What is clear is that his actions caused a huge amount of damage, and many people would like to see him in jail. The question is what happened, and what the law says about what happened.

    For comparison, one person a few years back was sentenced to a bit more than 4 years in jail for taking around $1.75M from 25 people. But in that case, the company had opened only about a year before, and may have been set up from the beginning to take people's money (as opposed to Tulving, who had a well run operation for around 2 decades). Yet there are some cases the size of the Tulving bankruptcy where there is no sign that anyone went to jail.
     
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  26. About.Ag

    About.Ag Seeker Seeker

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    Today is the Claims Bar Date, meaning that normally any claims made after today should be barred (not allowed). So within a day or three we should have a final tally on the amount customers are claiming (at least a few people are choosing not to file claims).

    Right now, there are just over $15M in claims, from about 325 customers (and about 8 non-customers).

    On Friday, the landlord filed his claim for a whopping $1M ($79K to be paid immediately, before creditors are paid). Bankruptcy rules allow landlords specific claims for broken leases, but this one is way out there: he has close ties to (and other dealings with) Tulving and the leases appear to be higher than market rent (and the leases included 2 residential leases for Hannes himself). Much of the $1M claim (and the $79K claim) is based on the $30,000/mo that Tulving was paying for Tulving's office. The problem? Today, another office that appears to be identical in size and function to Tulving's office is being rented for $10,000/mo!

    On an unrelated note, I'm working on a new website investigating bullion dealers (www.BullionDealerData.com). I'm taking what I have learned from the Tulving fiasco (and analyzing about 100 other bullion dealers that went belly-up), and putting the risk factors for all the dealers all together on one page. Lawsuits, UCC liens (huh?), complaints, shipping time, and so forth. My dream is to expand it so that people can enter actual shipping times, which would help identify Tulving-like problems very quickly.
     
  27. Silver Buck

    Silver Buck Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    For a past fiasco, check out Tom Noe.
     
  28. About.Ag

    About.Ag Seeker Seeker

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    Ah, yes -- I would be surprised if that isn't the biggest fiasco for coins (not including bullion). For anyone interested in these things, it is definitely worth reading about ("Coingate").
     
  29. Krag

    Krag Planet earth Platinum Bling

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    Then there was Kearney and Romano, typical boiler room operation:

    Pair convicted in coin swindle
    June 13, 2011 10:03 PM
    By ROBERT E. KESSLER robert.kessler@newsday.com


    Two Long Island men were convicted Monday of conspiracy to commit fraud and money laundering in connection with a scam to cheat customers out of $30 million by using high-pressure tactics to sell coins at vastly inflated prices, federal officials said.
    Michael Romano, 45, of Levittown, and William Kearney, 36, of East Islip, were found guilty of conspiracy to commit both fraud and money laundering after a six-week trial in U.S. District Court in Central Islip, officials said. The jury returned its verdict after a day and a half of deliberations.
    Kearney's attorney, Michael Bachner, said after the verdict, "We respectfully disagree with the jury's verdict, and plan to pursue an appeal." Romano's attorney could not be reached immediately for comment.
    Federal prosecutors Lara Treinis Gatz and Christopher Ott declined to comment.
    Victims of the scheme, mostly elderly and from outside the New York area, were sold inferior-grade U.S. coins passed off as coins of higher quality or of investment grade, Treinis Gatz and Ott said during the trial. The coins, mainly collectible United States Franklin and Liberty half-dollars, were actually only worth 14 or 15 cents for every dollar the victims paid, the prosecutors said.
    One victim who testified at the trial, Sharon Oldham, a widow from Kentucky, said one salesman involved in the scheme called her as many at twelve times a day to get her to invest. Prosecutors said she lost $13,300.
    In their remarks to the jury, prosecutors Ott and Treinis Gatz said that when Romano and Kearney had a victim who bought some coins at inflated values, their salespeople would repeatedly attempt to sell the person more coins.
    Romano and Kearney's defense attorneys maintained that their clients operated in good faith, and, in defense attorney's Bachner's words, there were "reasonable doubts all over the place" about the value grades of the coins.
    The scheme began in the early 1990s and operated from three different businesses, according to prosecutors: Wall Street Rare Coins in Massapequa; and Atlantic Coin Galleries and Northeast Gold and Silver, both in Lindenhurst.
    Romano and Kearney were among eleven people charged in November of 2008 in various coin boiler room schemes. The others pleaded guilty and are awaiting sentencing, officials said. Romano and Kearney each face up to 40 years in prison when they are sentenced by U.S. District Judge Joseph Bianco. http://www.newsday.com/long-island/nassau/pair-convicted-in-coin-swindle-1.2954791


    http://www.leagle.com/decision/In FDCO 20120504G81

    A 30 million dollar fraud+, bilking unsuspecting elderly clients out of their life savings leaving them with way overpriced coins.
     
  30. About.Ag

    About.Ag Seeker Seeker

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    A-Mark Transaction

    After I originally reported on A-Mark in June, I retracted my comments, because I received information from A-Mark stating (among other things) "Neither The Tulving Company nor Hannes Tulving, Jr. engaged in the trading of any futures, forwards, or other commodity derivatives with A-Mark."

    I have since discovered that The Tulving Company had an agreement with A-Mark (that goes beyond the standard buying physical for immediate delivery). A-Mark states that the financial transaction involved segregated bullion that A-Mark owned, with Tulving paying A-Mark a fee for an option to buy the bullion at market price. The bullion was liquidated on March 3, 2014 (the day Tulving shut down), and resulted in a (relatively small) wire transfer to The Tulving Company. A-Mark also states "there was no Tulving account".
     
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  31. southfork

    southfork Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    Re: A-Mark Transaction

    AG, why did you take all the info about tulving off your site??


     
  32. About.Ag

    About.Ag Seeker Seeker

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    Re: A-Mark Transaction

    It's still there, at http://about.ag/tulving.htm .
     
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  33. southfork

    southfork Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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  34. Mr.Jens

    Mr.Jens Seeker Seeker

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    So what are the odds that Tulving still faces jail time from the Federal case against him.
     
  35. southfork

    southfork Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    Two chances he goes to jail, slim and none.



     
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  36. About.Ag

    About.Ag Seeker Seeker

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    The U.S. Attorney did open a criminal case against Hannes Tulving, with one count of wire fraud. Hannes did sign a plea agreement agreeing to plead guilty to the charges. That is about all that is known about that.

    I was a bit surprised that he agreed to plead guilty, and I posted some information that I had that most people were unaware of: Tulving had a partner, and the information I have says that the partner was responsible for the loss of quite a bit of money. Bogus contracts (for stuff the partner gave to his friends), $300K/year salaries for him and some friends, millions of dollars accidentally going to the partner's company, things like that.

    And beyond that, I heard there is a company that knew about Tulving's insolvency about 9 months before it shut down, and worked on an agreement with him. That company made $100,000s with Tulving staying open during those 9 months.

    So the real questions are "Will we find out exactly who is responsible to what extent for the bankruptcy?" and "Will justice be served to the person(s) or company(ies) responsible?"
     
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  37. southfork

    southfork Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    U.S. Attorneys » Western District of North Carolina » Victim Witness Assistance

    United States-v-Hannes Tulving

    United States V. Hannes Tulving, Jr. and Tulving Company, et al.


    HANNES TULVING, through the wholly owned TULVING Company based in Costa Mesa, California, was in the business of selling coins, bullion, and precious metals (“coins”) over the internet. TULVING was the sole owner, shareholder and President of TULVING CO. TULVING and the TULVING CO. executed a scheme to defraud individuals by inducing customers to place orders for gold and silver coins, among other things, and wire money for those goods knowing that those orders could not be fulfilled as advertised and promised resulting in a loss of over $16,000,000 to over 400 victims. We have jurisdiction because at least one victim is located in WDNC. HANNES TULVING and the TULVING COMPANY have tentatively agreed to plead guilty to one count of wire fraud In light of detailed Bill of Criminal Information.



    See the Bill of Information.


    Attachments:


    Download Bill_of_Information.pdf (210.26 KB)
     
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  38. southfork

    southfork Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    So it begins it would seem, Tulving, Bullion Direct and who is next, seems NWT is getting attention now on AG/s site, they are 8/10 weeks out on delivery.
     
  39. SilverBuyer

    SilverBuyer Silver Member Silver Miner

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    That's been standard operating procedure for NWT for years.
     
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  40. Usury

    Usury Gold Chaser Platinum Bling

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    Any update?
     

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