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Tulving, the aftermath from 3.4.14

Discussion in 'PM Dealer Feedback' started by BeefJerky, Mar 4, 2014.



  1. FlaGman

    FlaGman Seeker Seeker

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  2. Usc96

    Usc96 Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Any word on whether he will face criminal charges yet?
     
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  3. About.Ag

    About.Ag Seeker Seeker

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    I have not heard anything so far, and will be sure to say so if I do.

    JG
     
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  4. ~BS

    ~BS Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    WOW, I've done business with blue moon coins over the years. Their prices weren't exactly screaming cheap either. Fair prices, but nothing that would signal their con artists.
     
  5. ~BS

    ~BS Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Ok, that would make sense. I was thinking of the 1099 for services, you're thinking of the investment type 1099, the ones the brokerages send you for sale of stocks.

    I've never had a dealer send me one for purchases/sales, and can't imagine that there are many dealers that would voluntarily do so. Dealers like APMEX don't send them out.
     
  6. About.Ag

    About.Ag Seeker Seeker

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    IIRC, I've heard that APMEX does send them out. The 1099s are only required when you sell to a dealer, and only if you sell in an amount that is at least the amount of a futures contract. So that would be $1,000 face value of 90% (about $14,000 worth), or 1,000oz (more than $20,000 worth).

    The IRS instructions for form 1099-B mention this a bit (e.g. if you sell one gold coin to a dealer, it would not trigger reporting). It does not cover what types of metal are exempt (AFAIK, no government website does), but anything that is and had not traded on COMEX should be exempt.

    Most dealers voluntarily fill out the forms because they are required to by law. That doesn't mean that they all do (especially the local coin stores that rarely buy that much metal, and may not report much of their own sales as well), and Tulving advertised that he did not.

    What most people never seem to consider is that getting the 1099 isn't necessarily a bad thing (unless, of course, you were hoping not to pay taxes). If you get audited, it's more proof of how much you got paid. If you "lose" your invoice, and have no 1099, then the IRS may decide to go with spot on the day it was highest in the year, causing you to pay more in tax than you should.

    JG
     
  7. Ahillock

    Ahillock A nobody Mother Lode

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    [video=youtube_share;YJQZ6Ndkt00]http://youtu.be/YJQZ6Ndkt00[/video]

    [video=youtube_share;h91aQWo3G_E]http://youtu.be/h91aQWo3G_E[/video]
     
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  8. Ahillock

    Ahillock A nobody Mother Lode

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    Since the downturn/smack down in metals, I remember members on here state that it would affect dealers and that many could end up closing. They were laughed at and mocked by some. Told how there was plenty of physical around. Why would dealers close when there was plenty of physical. Maybe the timing took a little longer than they thought, but we now have Tulving and Blue Moon Coins. Will there be more?

    One of my LCS says that he doesn't have enough willing to sell. Has 30-40 buyers for every seller. He told me the other day he isn't sure how much longer he will be able to stay in business.
     
  9. Tinbox

    Tinbox YOU GET NOTHING! YOU LOSE, GOOD DAY SIR! Site Supporter Platinum Bling

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    Are his buyers willing to pay retail? (i.e. $1-$2 over spot for generic silver). He could always order from companies like NTR/Ohio Precious metals and probably get silver rounds/bars for .40-.60 over spot if he can meet their minimums. This is probably lower margin than he'd like though unless he moves large volume.

    I could see the low prices affecting LCS's that rely on the majority of their profit buying from the public, usually at significant discounts to spot. (we buy gold shops come to mind, but some LCS's probably also qualify)
     
  10. southfork

    southfork Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    I spoke with NTR at the Fun Show, they told me they only sell to dealers and the cost is .69 over, I forget what their minimum sale is. That was last year though and it may have changed.
     
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  11. About.Ag

    About.Ag Seeker Seeker

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    That's a good point.

    If there is a shortage out there, how come APMEX is able to keep so much in stock?

    Either they are buying from wholesalers (in which case the wholesalers have plenty available), or APMEX is doing a better job buying metal from customers. If they are buying most of their metal from customers, and wholesalers are out of metal, then why aren't the other bullion dealers posting that there is a shortage of metal?

    I cannot imagine that Tulving collapsed because of a shortage of metal at wholesalers. If that was the case, he would not have referred to items as "in stock", would have told customers about delays, would have paid customers who sent him metal, etc.

    JG
     
  12. Scorpio

    Scorpio Скорпион Founding Member Board Elder Site Mgr Site Supporter ++

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    We had the CEO of Apmex on the radio show,

    He stated clearly that he cannot support his demand based on selling customers or wholesalers alone,

    That it takes a incredible amount of work to find metal to sell on a consistent basis from many sources,

    I won't guess at the mechanics of it,
     
  13. southfork

    southfork Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    I'll take a guess, there's really not the physical silver in existence that people claim there is.
     
  14. Ahillock

    Ahillock A nobody Mother Lode

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    That is a good question but I didn't ask him that question. I am sure some of his customers have since gone to online dealers because they couldn't find anything. I am also sure there is a portion of customers that don't want to deal with online ordering and just want to do cash and carry. But at the moment, this particular LCS I am talking about is having a hard time getting enough inventory. From my understanding, most of his inventory comes in off the street. He also sells other collectibles outside of coins + bullion, so not sure how much of that is helping him stay open.

    I didn't mean to infer Tulving or Blue Moon Coins closed because of lack of inventory. Rather that the downturn in the prices over the last few years (and especially since Spring 2013) has potentially put other pressures on these dealers. Mostly financially.
     
  15. Usury

    Usury Gold Chaser Platinum Bling

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    Wow...that's just awful. :(

    On a side note, I really believe that anyone putting all their eggs in one basket after Enron is a fool. That applies to dealers/orders/investments/etc. I hope everyone else learns a valuable lesson from these unfortunate people.

    I've often thought that if I did decide some day to buy or sell a massive order like this (say I'm cashing in or out of retirement OR win the lottery), I honestly think I'd rent a Loomis truck and armed guards to escort me with cash/metal to/from the dealer (even Apmex) to exchange for metal/cash. Either that and/or break it up into smaller orders with multiple dealers.

    The older I get the more I believe Jesus was right....forget about worldly possessions and focus on the really important things in life instead. Winning the lottery might be a curse. :(
     
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  16. Montecristo

    Montecristo Silver Member Silver Miner

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    All along I thought Tulving did what one would expect in regards to getting inventory shipped in. I'm thinking specifically when there seemed to be a lack of 90%. Tulving did what a dealer is supposed to do, he raised his buy prices up to the point where someone who has volume decides to sell to him. Without looking up the thread we had on GIM about 90% buy prices, I think he was paying in the neighborhood of $1.75 over melt and he raised his sell prices accordingly. That tells me that there was a lack of sellers, not necessarily a lack of product.

    I'm still shocked that he let what seemed to be a remarkable business crash and burn like it did.
     
  17. LT2014

    LT2014 New Member

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    Thanks to About.Ag........

    TULVING ASSETS SEIZED BY SECRET SERVICE

    March 20, 2014 6:30PM EST
    There was a rumor last week that Tulving's assets had been seized by federal authorities.
    Today, bankruptcy paperwork confirms that the Secret Service "seized all of [Tulving's] computers, files, and records", acting on behalf of the U.S. Attorney on or about March 9.

    This is expected to delay the completition of the bankruptcy paperwork by up ton 60 days. Importantly, this means that the bankruptcy court will be operating with the hastily compiled list of just 9 out of the hundreds of Tulving creditors.
     
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  18. Hi Ho Silver

    Hi Ho Silver Seeker Seeker

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    Hannes may still have access to a ton of PMs.......here's a scenario-- guy who robs the bank and scores a big payday...then buries the loot...then gets caught....does his jail time...gets out and digs up the stash....disappears to an island paradise.

    JUST A SCENARIO-crazier stuff happens.
     
  19. Scorpio

    Scorpio Скорпион Founding Member Board Elder Site Mgr Site Supporter ++

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    HiHo,

    I honestly don't see it that way,
     
  20. itsamess

    itsamess Silver Member Silver Miner

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    Since Hannes had a major stroke at the age of 50, nine years ago sort of doubt he would risk sitting in jail even at 59.
     
  21. Usc96

    Usc96 Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    This suggests we might finally see some criminal justice.

    Serious complaints about this business started in the middle of 2013, so why wait until late March 2014 after the fellow filed bankruptcy to step in? It almost looks like the authorities ignored the warning signs on purpose, maybe thinking PM buyers are prepper nuts who don't deserve the government's protection.

    Maybe the bankruptcy brought about the criminal investigation, or maybe one of the later victims was politically connected, and that led to the criminal investigation?
     
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  22. About.Ag

    About.Ag Seeker Seeker

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    I believe that the authorities have to make a much, much stronger case to seize the assets of a company that is currently in operation than one that has shut its doors. That was part of the argument that was used to get the temporary restraining order that froze The Tulving Company's bank account -- even if the restraining order was improperly granted, no damage would be done to the company.

    The criminal investigation was brought about due to customer complaints.

    JG
     
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  23. Hi Ho Silver

    Hi Ho Silver Seeker Seeker

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    Scorp I hear ya...but stranger stuff has happened in this crazy world is all i'm saying. :D
     
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  24. Some_Math_Guy

    Some_Math_Guy Banned

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    2014? You out there? :captain: Looks like Tulving Almost had your #! Aren't you glad you didn't get caught up in this? :deal:
     
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  25. LT2014

    LT2014 New Member

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    I am here.......on my knees thanking the good Lord I got paid........before December 9. A very, very large number. The experience was a horror movie only I was in it. I still get cold sweats. I wish I could tell you the whole story. Maybe over a couple of beers. Essentially everything at risk........a BIG lesson learned. Headed back to my remote location in the Alaska wilds. A place of peace.
    I pray sincerely for all to be made whole.

    Thanks for your kind concern, Some_Math_Guy. Thanks very much.
     
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  26. Some_Math_Guy

    Some_Math_Guy Banned

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    I'm glad it worked out for you.

    This 2014 was in the heat of as well I think.

     
  27. LT2014

    LT2014 New Member

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    Sorry about that! I figured you had read a bit of my story on another forum. I am over it. It is done. I wish I could say something nice about Hannes but if you knew my story, you would understand that is not possible. Lot of hurt people out there with other stories.
    Later.........
     
  28. silver solution

    silver solution Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Tulving never screwed me over. I'm sure I sent other people his way as he was so fast and had best prices if you had the bucks to buy a enough.. I'm kind of shocked but I remember someone telling me he had gone bankrupt before? I just found this thread.
     
  29. zhen

    zhen Seeker

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    Speculation that Tulving's losses stem from gambling in the Futures market seems baseless. Margin requirements prevent losing more than is on deposit in the futures account, as the position will be automatically closed before the account went negative.

    What people need to understand is that all businesses have a finite life span. All businesses fail. All governments fail. All currencies fail. Past performance is no assurance of future results. If you can't afford counter-party risk, don't send <all> your money to them, diversify. This goes for banks, brokers, bullion dealers etc., contractors, home builders etc. All businesses have a life cycle with an upside down bathtub shaped curve of growth. The life cycle of a business is that a business starts with an entrepreneur who has an idea. The business grows very quickly in this first phase when the idea is good. Entrepreneurs are not necessarily good businessmen. In the mature phase, the business is mainly accounting based while turning the crank on a process. When the market shifts, the process no longer fits the business environment. There is no growth and no shrinkage. The last phase, the market changes such that the process no longer works. Then the business is run by the lawyers, while the remaining assets are distributed. Every business has this life cycle, regardless if they mine radium, sell buggy whips, deal in energy markets such as Enron did, etc. If you make a business that is on the right hand side of this business cycle your counterparty, you are at great risk of losing your ass-ets. This is true of all bullion dealers. Any time you pay in advance of delivery, you take on counterparty risk.

    If you send your money to a business in exchange for future delivery, you are subject to the ability of that business to deliver in the future. If you sent your life savings, you are at risk of losing your life savings. You are subject to your ability to enforce delivery. If the assets are gone, you have no recourse. This is why I say you should only buy cash and carry if the quantity of of significant value to you. No business is going to volunteer that they are having liquidity problems. If they did, the would get around and collapse would be assured. Most businesses facing liquidity problems will work dilligently to increase business volume and obtain the time spread between incoming payments and outgoing payments or product in an effort to dig out of their pit. Often it shows as late on payable accounts or deliverables. Their business lives to open their doors another day as long as this works.

    Recent experience is no assurance of future performance. Many business (Lehmon Bros, Enron etc appear from the outside to be solvent up until they fail catastrophically.
     
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  30. Tinbox

    Tinbox YOU GET NOTHING! YOU LOSE, GOOD DAY SIR! Site Supporter Platinum Bling

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    There is no way he lost tens of millions of dollars without screwing up big time in some manner. Whether his screw-up was related to the futures market or not I don't know.
     
  31. About.Ag

    About.Ag Seeker Seeker

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    It isn't quite that simple. You've got about a week to come up with the money to replenish your margin account. If you do $675M/year of business, you bring in $13M of cash each week (and have to send out about $12.8M of metal).

    So if you have $25M of inventory, you get $13M of orders, and send out $12.8M of your inventory. Now instead of $25M of inventory and $0 in the bank, you have $12.2M of inventory and $13M in the bank. Voila, you can pay as much as $13M that was lost, and nobody will be any the wiser.

    And what if you have gone through your entire inventory? You can use drop-shippers, which delays your orders perhaps a couple days. And with $13M coming in each week, you can then use the cash to replenish your margin account, and delay the orders. Of course, by doing this, you have to come up with that $13M at some point, or else orders will always be delayed.

    So I do not think that the theory about speculating in the futures market is baseless. It may not be what happened, but one of a very few theories that fit.

    Very well put (and for those that didn't read the part I cut out, please do read it; I only cut it to make this post shorter).

    In this case, the warning signs were there back by October or so (e.g. Tulving admitting in public records that in many cases he was taking over the 28-30 days to deliver that the law requires). But it took a long time for that to sink in (due to Tulving's previous impeccable reputation), and the nearly complete lack of media coverage.

    JG
     
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  32. British Sovereign

    British Sovereign New Member

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    WTF. Have you traded commodities futures?
     
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  33. About.Ag

    About.Ag Seeker Seeker

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    I know what you're going to say -- check any brokerage futures contract, they all say they will liquidate by the end of the day if you do not meet the margin call.

    Check the regulations, though, and you have up to about a week (but only, of course, if the brokerage allows it). If you need to make a $2M margin call on Monday, and have $1.5M in the bank, a call to the broker saying that you will have the full $2M the next day may well work. Remember, if they think you are going to take your business elsewhere (big business, if you're getting that big a margin call), they may well be willing to work with you.

    Again, the futures/options idea is speculation, but I haven't seen any better speculation. If someone can think of something that would better fit the circumstances, please feel free to speak up.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2014
  34. About.Ag

    About.Ag Seeker Seeker

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    I've been thinking for a while about responding to this.

    You are right, a libel lawsuit would have the potential of causing me serious damage. And I did come fairly close to where I believe the boundaries of libel are. I started off extra cautious (for example, recommending that people avoid Tulving "for the time being", and adding the disclaimer of how it not doing business with Tulving would help the them recover if they indeed were backlogged due to record sales as claimed). As time went on, however, I got closer and closer to crossing the line (without doing so, as far as I know). For example, I got rid of that "for the time being", and made it clear that I recommended against using Tulving (in red letters, no less). And I included the speculation as to what I thought had happened. And I started talking about laws I felt they broke.

    I did this because ultimately, the risk to others ordering from Tulving outweighed the damage to me. If I got sued and lost my life savings, it would be devastating to me. But Tulving ended up doing that same damage to countless others. It was a risk I felt I had no choice but to take (unlike a number of other websites that cover gold and silver news).

    JG
     
  35. Montecristo

    Montecristo Silver Member Silver Miner

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    You've made it clear that your theory is speculation. I don't see any grounds for libel against you.
    And at this point going forward I think Hannes is going to be too busy to even worry about some guy who posted a speculative theory on the internet.
     
  36. ttazzman

    ttazzman Midas Member Midas Member Site Supporter

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    On the margin call......at least in my case i have a credit line at the brokerage usually backed by a letter of credit from a bank i have never experienced going over my credit limits via margin call but i would assume they would liquidate the position unless i could prove funding or larger credit line.....but like i have said i have never been there..

    on the liable......they gotta prove you caused them specific harm....and that you were untruthful.....at their expense...in my opinion anyone can speculate as long as they label it as such.....and its not libelous if its truth
     
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  37. LT2014

    LT2014 New Member

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    About.AG
    You continue to be the hero in this. There are numerous people out there who owe you much for providing critical information.
    I have only the deepest respect for you. You are the sheepdog that warned the sheep about the potential wolves!!! There are lots of sheep out there and many wolves.......few sheepdogs! Dang good job you have done. " No greater love hath a man than this, that he give of his life for others. "
     
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  38. goldielox1

    goldielox1 Silver Miner Seeker

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    Re: Tulving out of Business

    Um yea it's called hedging inventory. Retailers (whether its gold or groceries or gas) should make money on the buy/sell spread not on speculating on prices. If they're unhedged, they're not a true retailer, they're an investor/speculator that also buys and sells what they are speculating on.
     
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  39. goldielox1

    goldielox1 Silver Miner Seeker

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    This is wrong. Futures margin requirements are significantly less for heding than speculating. If he opened his account as a buillion dealer, he would not have to post anywhere near the margin $'s/contract as a regular person or even bank that is specualting (doesn't own the underlying assets). Further, it would be easy to lose almost all of the money in his account over time with a continual several-month downturn.
     
  40. goldielox1

    goldielox1 Silver Miner Seeker

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    about.ag, it sounds like you basically are confirming with your theory what I posted on these very forums back in July, 2013 when another member posted his experience and sought our help on what to do (he was trashed of course as was I):

    http://www.goldismoney2.com/showthread.php?49386-The-quot-T-quot-Company&p=574924#post574924

    "I think I've expressed my opinion in another thread. He's unhedged and with the drop in gold, he's in a financial hole and unable to buy new product or sell his existing product without taking a huge hit. He's using your payment to make ends meet while desperately hoping the market skyrockets and he can start selling again without taking a huge loss on his accumulated goods. See his inventory where he's "sold out" on all product. If there were a shortage of product, the true dealers wouldn't be selling either.

    He's in a bad position though as far as your order because if gold does rebound, his existing inventory would become more valuable, but he'd take a huge loss on the sale to you ($60,000 for a 30% rise in gold price for your $200K order.)

    My suspicion is if gold does rebound, he will then try to renig on your purchase and then send the money back to you. If it doesn't soon, he files for bankruptcy for the 3rd time. "

    "They were deduced not manufactured. If you think my theory is hogwash, kindly explain your theory as to how he was $6 million in the hole in one of his bankruptcies (I don't know how much it was in the other, could have been more?)

    I'm not telling the OP what to do. Just saying if it were my money that's what I'd do. If something is "in stock" and hasn't been shipped in a month, I think any prudent party/judge would consider that a breach of contract. AND I don't think time is your friend IF Tulving is down big money on the PM market crash (which granted is my interpretation of him being unhedged in his past bankruptcies). If there's another good theory as to how he was $6 million negative in the past, I'd be interested in hearing and modifying my opinion."

    I was horribly attacked by many of the same guys posting sympathy in this current new thread (and especially Saavydon and Zed who are probably still defending Tulving even after all this came out and I have been vindicated), and I was even threatened with banning by one of the moderators for speaking ill of Tulving. After that episode, I stopped posting as frequently here because I could tell that for the most part no dissenting opinions would be tolerated, even if they were theories based on known facts.

    I hope that my postings saved some people money, but I've learned that being a canary in the coal mine is usually not respected too well around here.
     
    luckabuck, LT2014, southfork and 2 others like this.

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