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Tulving, the aftermath from 3.4.14

Discussion in 'PM Dealer Feedback' started by BeefJerky, Mar 4, 2014.



  1. LT2014

    LT2014 New Member

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    Update by about.AG:

    QUIET

    May 20, 2014 12:55PM EST
    No court documents have been filed since late afternoon May 13, the longest time period with no court document filings since the beginning of the case in March.
    I am guessing this may be due to the Creditors' Meeting tomorrow, and the hearings on Thursday. On Thursday, there is a Status Conference, a hearing regarding the request to employ PSZ&J and BRG, and "the Chapter 11 Trustee’s Motion to Convert Case to Chapter 11" (I don't want to let me inexperience show and suggest that the court document is in error and should say 'Convert Case to Chapter 7').
     
  2. LT2014

    LT2014 New Member

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    Update from about.AG:
    Suggested Questions for Creditors' Meeting

    May 20, 2014 6:25PM EST
    Here are some suggestions for questions to ask Hannes Tulving, Jr., if he shows up at the creditors' meeting tomorrow (Wednesday). As a reminder, the public is welcome, but questions are primarily restricted to the trustee and creditors.
    These questions match those I sent out to the Tulving Updates E-mail list (see form below if you want to join). If I add anything before the meeting, I will make it clear.

    What commodity brokers did The Tulving Company have commodity accounts with from 2011-2014? [If "None", ask if they had an account with PFG - The Tulving Company was on the PFG bankruptcy creditor list]
    If there were commodity accounts, did Hannes personally guarantee any of them?
    Did The Tulving Company own any commodity put or call options in April, 2013?
    Was there an event in April, 2013 that prevented The Tulving Company from shipping orders within 28-30 days? If so, what?
    The Tulving Company claimed assets of over $25M at one point in 2011 (over 600,000oz of silver). Did The Tulving Company really have those assets, and own them outright? If so, what happened to the value of that inventory?
    At what point was the $25M of inventory depleted?
    Are there any secured creditors, aside from Collateral Finance Corporation (an A-Mark subsidiary)?
    Why was The Tulving Company paying for Hannes' personal residence?
    From 2011 to 2014, was any metal removed from Tulving's inventory without Tulving being paid for it (e.g. stolen or given away)? If so, how much?
    How much money is owed to customers overall?
    Where did the customers' money go?
    From 2011 to 2014, were there any payments of more than $1M that were for anything other than inventory?
    What percentage of orders were via check, bank wire?
    About what percentage of orders were drop-shipped in 2011, 2012, 2013?
     
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  3. LT2014

    LT2014 New Member

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    From about.AG:


    Waiting To Hear on Creditors' Meeting

    May 20, 2014 1:08pm EST, 10:08AM PST
    I will post as soon as I get any details about the Creditors' Meeting.
    If you have any updates, you can send them to about.ag [at] gmail.com.
     
  4. luckabuck

    luckabuck Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Did Hannes show, or was he a no-show today in bankruptcy proceedings? The world wants to know. Some of us would like for him to have been arrested on the spot, but chances are with good lawyers, that he was not.
     
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  5. Silver

    Silver Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    No show!

    This Just In: Hannes Tulving, Jr. Does Not Show Up!
    May 21, 2014 7:05PM
    I have just received word that Hannes Tulving, Jr. did not show up at the Creditors' Meeting.

    I do not know yet if he chose not to show up, or was arrested, or there was some other reason.

    I will start doing some research into the ramifications of not showing up at the Creditors' Meeting. By not showing up, he runs the risk of the case being dismissed.
     
  6. LT2014

    LT2014 New Member

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    This is getting interesting with Hannes as a no show.........

    From about.AG:
    "More Details

    May 21, 2014 9:20PM
    Just a few quick details; I will post more tomorrow (Thursday) morning.
    I understand that Hannes wanted to appear by phone, and plead the 5th to many questions, but Mr. Neilson did not allow that.

    I have already put in a request for the audio, and hope to get that within about 2 weeks. Again, I should have more details tomorrow morning."
     
  7. luckabuck

    luckabuck Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    To me, his no show was an open admission of premeditated guilt. If he was not guilty of criminal action, he would probably have shown to enter into a court approved bankruptcy, stating that his business got out of control through no criminal action on his part. His not showing for the hearing looks like he is guilty as sin.
     
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  8. LT2014

    LT2014 New Member

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    This quote from about.AG:

    "I understand that Hannes wanted to appear by phone, and plead the 5th to many questions, but Mr. Neilson did not allow that."

    I wonder if that call would have been long distance......as in maybe by satellite phone from a remote location on the upper Amazon......but then again, maybe the Acapulco Regency Hotel as the upper Amazon has those pesky mosquitoes and headhunters and no room service.
     
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  9. Ahillock

    Ahillock A nobody Mother Lode

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    What a mess.
     
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  10. LT2014

    LT2014 New Member

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    And the story goes on. Thank you about.AG:

    "Even More Details

    May 22, 2014 11:05AM
    Here are some details of the meeting. This is my interpretation based on notes from several people who were there. I was not present, nor do I have the audio (I should with about 2 weeks, which I will post online).
    Although Hannes was not present, his bankruptcy attorney was, as well as about 10 creditors and/or their attorneys, and Mr. Neilson (the Chapter 11 trustee).
    The meeting lasted over an hour.
    It sounds like Mr. Neilson has received Tulving's accounting records, and should be able to put together the creditor list.
    It appears that Hannes was involved in trading commodities futures, as I had suspected in my post-mortem.
    Hannes wanted to appear by phone, and plead the 5th to many questions, but Mr. Neilson did not allow the apperance by phone.
    Hannes has retained criminal counsel for the grandy jury subpoena, and the counsel will likely accept service of the subpoena.
    The U.S. Attorney believes the coins that were seized (I'm guessing mostly PCGS-graded common coins of high grades, not bullion coins) are essentially worthless, but Hannes feels they have quite a bit of value.
    There are accounts receivable of a bit over $1M. I'm not sure how they have accounts receivable. Mr. Neilson is unsure if it can be recovered.
    The auction generated about $27K, although I believe that is before the fees, which would bring it down to about $20K.
    Mr. Neilson does not know much about the value of the intangibles (domain name, phone number, customer list) at this point.
    Mr. Neilson does not believe there will be much in assets to distribute to cfreditors.
    I understand that if the case converts to Chapter 7, which is almost certain, there will be another Creditors' Meeting.
    I was mentioned at the meeting, and Mr. Neilson characterized me as a 'Good Samaritan', and explained reasons why he will not communicate with me (I am not a creditor or an attorney representing a creditor).
    Mr. Neilson does not get paid an hourly rate (he gets paid a commission), the professionals do get paid hourly. Mr. Neilson stands by his decision to employ the professionals he has chosen.
    Takeaways:
    The fact that Hannes requested permission to attend via telephone is encouraging. It sounds like he is doing what he can to cooperate, except for coming out of hiding.

    It sounds like the most likely scenario is that Hannes was gambling in the futures market, as I had guessed, but it sounds like that is preliminary information.

    I have no idea about the accounts receivable, as that would suggest Hannes was selling metal without first getting paid.

    Hannes' request to appear by telephone is a catch-22: if Mr. Neilson he had allowed it, we may well have gotten a lot of answers. But, if it was allowed, he would have been in compliance with the bankruptcy rules (and therefore would not risk losing the protection of the bankruptcy), and yet still remained in hiding.

    That is what I have for now. The audio may provide a bit more, but likely not much since Hannes was not present.

    And a big thank-you to those that provided me with notes about the meeting."
     
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  11. southfork

    southfork Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    Perhaps the ar's were people who were going to buy metal and after they found out about the fraud they didn't pay, he may have listed them as an ar.
     
  12. Usc96

    Usc96 Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    AR might be the preference actions?
     
  13. About.Ag

    About.Ag Seeker Seeker

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    I don't believe so. My guess is that there were about $15-$20M or so of bullion shipped out in the 90 days before the bankruptcy (the preference period). It sounds like he came up with a specific dollar amount ($1,089,000 I think) for accounts receivable, too specific to be a guess as to how much could be collected with preference actions.

    southfork could be right with people who ordered and did not pay, but how could he get a dollar amount for those? And how far back would such a record go? I also doubt the trustee would consider the possibility of collecting it if it was small amounts (e.g. a $10,000 order went down in value to $9,500 and someone cancelled, causing a $500 AR), especially given the excuse -- "Yes, I ordered, but then discovered there was fraud going on; how can I be liable for that?"

    So I am still puzzled. If he had coin dealer buddies that he sent metal to on credit, I would think the trustee would be sure to collect (and probably could very easily, as I doubt a coin dealer would want to avoid the threat of a lawsuit over something like that.
     
  14. luckabuck

    luckabuck Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Since Hannes did not show, it would not hurt my feelings to see his name and photo on the "wanted list" at my local post office.
     
  15. LT2014

    LT2014 New Member

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    This whole Tulving situation is nauseating!

    .......about.AG continues:


    Court Approves Employment of PSZ&J and BRG

    May 22, 2014 4:50PM
    I just heard that the court approved the application for Mr. Neilson to use PS&J and BRG as professionals in The Tulving Company's bankruptcy.
    My understanding is that the court also explained that it scrutinizes each fee application. In other words, Mr. Neilson can use PSZ&J and BRG, but they haven't been given a 'blank check.' For example, a high-priced attorney doing the work of a paralegal would likely not be tolerated. Likewise, if they charge $2,000 to complete a task that the average-price competent local bankruptcy attorney would only charge $1,000 for, I doubt that would be tolerated.

    Plus, since an opposition was made, I believe there would be less leniency regarding fees (in other words, the fee applications cannot say 'The creditors accepted our hourly fees').

    Bankruptcy Converted to Chapter 7

    May 22, 2014 4:35PM
    I have just found out that the bankruptcy was successfully converted from Chapter 11 to Chapter 7.
    A Chapter 11 bankruptcy is designed for a business to continue (reorganize), with a plan for how to become profitable and pay off creditors. A Chapter 7 bankruptcy, however, is designed to sell off any assets and distribute them to creditors. So the conversion comes as no surprise.

    I will update as I find out exactly what this may mean to you. One important note is that in a Chapter 7 case, I believe all creditors are required to fill out a Proof of Claim form (as opposed to Chapter 11, where it is not normally required). I do not yet know what happens in the case of a conversion, if the Proof of Claim form is required; I believe most likely it will be. At the very least, when the creditor list is filed, you should get a mailing from the court telling you about this. But keep in mind that you may be required to fill out the Proof of Claim form (and by a specific deadline).

    E-mails To and From Mr. Neilson

    May 22, 2014 1:15PM
    Mr. Neilson once said "I am more than willing to subject myself to the scrutiny of ... fair minded people." I agree.
    Given that Mr. Neilson chose to cut off communications with me (prefering to keep creditors in the dark), requested I stop acting as an advocate for creditors, and accused me of wasting his time and costing creditors thousands and thousands of dollars, I thought giving people access to the actual E-mail exchange would be useful (my only contact with Mr. Neilson has been through E-mail). You can read them here. It's not important that you do, but if you are curious, they make for an interesting read.
     
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  16. LT2014

    LT2014 New Member

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    The links don't work here, go to about.AG.com

    http://about.ag/tulving.htm#.UmXeVnaN5iU.email

    Update from about.AG:

    First Trustee Report Available

    May 23, 2014 1:00PM EST
    The first trustee report is available.
    You can find a copy here.

    I will update this article with more details after reading the report.

    The Tulving Company Bankruptcy Site Goes Live

    May 23, 2014 12:55PM EST
    I have just found out that the official website of The Tulving Company's bankruptcy has gone live. There is not a lot of information there yet, but should be a helpful resource. You can find it at http://www.tulvingbankruptcy.com.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2014
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  17. LT2014

    LT2014 New Member

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    I read the Trustee's report. What a mess. I have followed this since HT caused me untold misery.
    I am out of here. Somebody else please feel free to keep adding about.AGs updates if it is of some help. I pray sincerely for all the good people here and for those who have been hurt by this. Not only have the finances of many been destroyed but I suspect lives seriously disrupted. I think I may have learned to never ever trust anyone again......but then how do you live.
    Peace.
     
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  18. luckabuck

    luckabuck Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Luckily, so very lucky, that I contacted law enforcement, and got my six figures of bullion before he stopped shipping to everyone, and I did try to warn members of GIM about this man and his business ethics. I would like to thank About.AG and LT2014 greatly for their keeping us appraised about everything that has happened. I feel so very, very sorry for the lives that have been ruined by this man, and think that he should be criminally prosecuted to the maximum extent of the law. Although I am free and not having been ruined financially by Hannes, I feel so very, very sorry for the people that he has scammed and ruined financially and emotionally.
     
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  19. Usury

    Usury Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Wow, looks like the IRS filed a claim. I'm figuring after they get paid, secured creditors will absorb the rest (and still get partially paid), leaving the individuals stiffed. Perhaps he will be indicted and then have to liquidate personal assets to pay some restitution to them.
     
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  20. About.Ag

    About.Ag Seeker Seeker

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    Yes, there are at least a handful of lives that have been seriously disrupted.

    Trust was a big issue here;this went on for so long because of all his repeat customers, who completely trusted him. He was in business successfully for over 20 years.

    There are some things to learn, however, that can help others in the future. The most important I think is to never place an order online (or phone/mail) if you will be seriously hurt financially if you do not get it.
     
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  21. About.Ag

    About.Ag Seeker Seeker

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    IIRC, the IRS is notified of all bankruptcies. In this case, Tulving filed for bankruptcy on March 10, and therefore almost certainly did not file a return for 2013. I don't think that it means that they *are* owed money, just that they think they might be.

    FWIW, I heard that the IRS did a field audit back in April-May of 2013. So it is possible they were owed money as a result of that, and may get priority in the bankruptcy. Who knows.

    I am fairly confident (if the Chapter 11 trustee, Mr. Neilson, hadn't stopped communications with me I likely would know for certain) that there is only 1 secured creditor, and they appear to be secured just by the coins that the Secret Service confiscated (highly graded common non-bullion coins I believe), that are apparently worthless. So if any money is recovered from those coins, it goes to that company (an A-Mark subsidiary), but fortunately that should be it for secured creditors. If they are owed a ton of money, they have to get in line with the unsecured creditors.
     
  22. southfork

    southfork Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    Very true LB, thanks for having the courage to come forward and warn others about what was going on despite the bashing you kept getting from all those who worshiped at the tulving shrine.
     
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  23. southfork

    southfork Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    Does this sound familiar?
    May 20, 2014, 7:58am MDT

    Colorado gold-coin dealer gets prison term in $2.5 million fraud case









    gold coins
    Enlarge Photo

    MoiseevVladislav

    .






    Mark HardenNews Director-
    Denver Business Journal
    Email | Twitter | LinkedIn | Google+
    A former Fairplay resident has been sentenced to a 7-1/2-year prison term after pleading guilty to collecting $2,464,099 from about 40 customers for gold coins he never delivered.

    James P. Burg, 63, also was sentenced to three years of supervised release after his prison term. U.S. District Judge John Kane also ordered Burg to pay nearly $2.5 million in restitution to his victims.

    Burg pleaded guilty last September to one count of mail fraud and one count of failing to file an income tax return.

    Burg was indicted by a federal grand jury in Denver on Nov. 5, 2012. The indictment remained sealed until his arrest in California on Nov. 29, 2012.

    Kane handed down the sentence May 15 in Denver. Burg had faced a prison term of up to 20 years on the mail fraud count.

    According to the indictment and Burg’s plea agreement, from 2007 until 2012, Burg defrauded customers who ordered coins as the CEO of a business known as Superior Discount Coins, and another business called Gold Run Investments.

    At times, Burg operated Gold Run Investments using the alias Tim Burke. Burg allegedly ran radio and online ads seeking customers.

    Prosecutors say Burg kept much of the money he collected from customers for his own use instead of buying coins, using the funds to buy million-dollar homes and two Porsche cars, and in some cases refused to refund customers' money when asked.

    To prevent the scheme’s detection, Burg sometimes filled customers’ orders for coins after clients threatened to take legal action or report him to authorities. Burg used one customer’s payment for coins to refund funds to another customer, prosecutors alleged.
     
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  24. Usc96

    Usc96 Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    I have always wondered what happens when these people can't pay back the restitution when they get out? As former convicts, they are not likely to secure gainful employment that pays enough to allow them to pay out $2.5M, plus interest.
     
  25. About.Ag

    About.Ag Seeker Seeker

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    Hannes' previous experience was similar. He owed $1.3M, http://www.ftc.gov/es/node/124696 shows that just under $250,000 was paid, and then payments stopped. I am not clear on the exact details (e.g. under what circumstances he might not have to pay some/all of the money), but in this case under 20% of the money was collected (and reports are over $10M was lost, so the $1.3M was pennies on the dollar).
     
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  26. luckabuck

    luckabuck Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    The two cases sound identical, but Hannes has already been through bankruptcy once, and he has hired expensive legal expertise. I think that he deserves prison time like Burg received, but I am betting that Hannes walks away a free man with a promise to repay creditors that we all know will not happen.
     
  27. ppius13

    ppius13 Seeker Seeker

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    He may walk away, but there will be no promise to repay creditors. That is why he is in bankruptcy, to protect himself from creditors, so that he is not legally required to pay them back.

    Hannes has created a living Hell for his clients, his employees, his family and for himself. This, for one reason: greed.

    Hannes was not satisfied being wealthy; he wanted more, and was willing to put his acquired assets and those of his clients at risk to enrich himself -- so that he could make a real, California-style, "killing". You see Hannes watched Gold go from $260 to $1,925 and silver from $4 to $49.25. He did not benefit from the meteoric rise, other than from the commissions he generated at Tulving and an increase in his own physical metal portfolio. That was not enough for Hannes who fancied himself privileged elite and entitled to the absolute highest standard of living: boats, planes, multiple homes, etc..., you know, all the fleeting, material wealth that doesn't survive or buy lasting happiness, but for a spiritually undeveloped soul can be the object of interminable obsession.

    Hannes went "all-in" -- with his and others money, knowing full well that he could never fill the new orders he was taking. When he realized that he would be unable to extricate himself from the mess he created, he grabbed what he could to provide for himself after Tulving closed. That is what he is living on now. Anyone who can string along unwary, client/victims for as long as Hannes did, has a very high tolerance for participation in wrongdoing. After the facts are laid bare, this will be a good story for American Greed. It is an American tragedy owed entirely to greed.
     
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  28. About.Ag

    About.Ag Seeker Seeker

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    Hannes did have a corporate jet back in the day.

    But since his early 1990s issues, I haven't heard any stories of him going after those types of things. I am not aware of him having any boats, planes, or even a single residence (The Tulving Company was renting an apartment and home office for him). He would answer the phone and take orders in the middle of the night and on holidays. I never heard any stories of people calling to order and hearing "Chug! Chug! Chug!" in the background. From what I can tell, he led a fairly modest lifestyle for the past 20 or so years.
     
  29. LT2014

    LT2014 New Member

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    I am trying to just put this away as a bad memory but want to ask about.AG a question. I have considered what about.AG has said several times about HT not having a lavish life style and it appears that outwardly that is true but.......considering what HT might have learned from his first bankruptcy, is it possible that instead of investing funds in a openly lavish life style he was quietly stashing those funds against another "rainy day"?
    Is this how he can afford attorneys etc? I know it is all speculation, but about.AG, you remain the most informed in this situation and certainly worthy of all our respect for keeping us informed.
     
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  30. Silver

    Silver Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    I think you are right. He learned from experience how to game the system. I have no doubt he stashed large quantities of gold during his second round of 'success'. I've learned from being involved in civil lawsuits that it is nearly impossible to seize assets that are not in the banking system or without a deed or title. He knew how to do this in such a way as to make it highly unlikely of anyone being able to find his stash.

    I never did business with Tulving because he was a rude prick. I tried to communicate with him on several occasions and he would answer me with one or two words replies, and this was over fairly large amounts both buying and selling. I knew if he was like that, and if there was a problem with an order, he would be hard to deal with. I had already dealt with a dealer that I had to threaten with legal action to get my paid for order and wasn't going down that road again.
     
  31. About.Ag

    About.Ag Seeker Seeker

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    It is certainly possible that he stashed money or metal away. And he has not filed for personal bankruptcy, so he is hoping to keep whatever he may have.

    It is The Tulving Company that filed for bankruptcy, and paid the money to the bankruptcy attorney ($10K in June, 2013 and another $10K as the company was shutting down). That just came out of the money that was flowing in each day. I believe the rest of the money that the bankruptcy attorney and anyone else involved in the bankruptcy get comes from whatever money The Tulving company had or can be recovered.

    The criminal lawyer that Hannes hired would presumably be paid for from Hannes' own money. It is not clear if Hannes took out much money from The Tulving Company (e.g. as a salary), or if almost all his net worth was in the business.
     
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  32. luckabuck

    luckabuck Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    I really hope that they discover that he has tried to hide assets in this bankruptcy, resulting in him being charged with criminal activity. He has already ruined a number of lives financially, and caused untold mental anguish to hundreds of people, not because of neglect or ignorance, but this action has been his personal choice.
     
  33. Scorpio

    Scorpio Скорпион Founding Member Board Elder Site Mgr Site Supporter ++

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    I have watched this hate fest continue on for quite some time now, with the consensus being tar and feather the guy,

    none of us know squat about the guy, or what happened as of yet, no matter what About ag's commentary and speculations are, for they are exactly that with some facts interspersed within,

    and that is all fine as he has done a great job of trying to recreate a historical lineage to it,

    I don't know the guy, never ordered from him, and wouldn't due to his requirements and history,

    I did my dd, why couldn't the others do the same?????



    Wow, if this is going to be your argument,

    then at least start with our current sitting president, then go from there if you are looking for people to toss in jail using that logic

    if anyone is sending anyone enough dough all at once on nothing but a call or a internet order, large enough to 'ruin them financially', then they have some culpability in it for being flat stupid also
     
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  34. luckabuck

    luckabuck Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Just call me "FLAT STUPID " then Scorp, because I sent him six figures, thinking that he could do no wrong according to all the accolades stated by his admirers on this site. And I'm "STUPID" again, for voting for Obama because I wanted change from all the crap that Bush put us through. And my statement that you quoted pretty well summed up what would have happened to myself and my family if I had not gotten my bullion before Tulving and Company bit the dust. Many did not. Some of us are just not as smart as you are.
     
  35. luckabuck

    luckabuck Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    And if you are tired of the subject being on Tulving being discussed, shut this thread down.
     
  36. anotherdave

    anotherdave Banned

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    Hannes Tulving promised a product at a certain price, timely delivered. He didn't meet that promise, did he? And now that he's failed to deliver the product at all, that is called fraud, isn't it?

    Maybe the people he defrauded aren't as smart as you, Scorp. Maybe they just visited his website, saw that he had thousands of customers, and assumed that they would get the items they paid for, just like the free prize in a box of Cracker Jack?

    The public was wrong, and Hannes Tulving is . . . uh, where IS Hannes Tulving anyway?

    Oh well, never mind! Be more careful next time!
     
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  37. Chester-Copperpot

    Chester-Copperpot Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    You got your bullion and still crying like a little bitch. What that tells me is that Hannes tried to make good on every order until he no longer could keep the business going. Had he set out to scam people he would have done it a long time ago.

    If you chose to send your life savings to someone over the phone, then yes you are stupid. Personally I would never send my entire life savings to any company over the net/phone. You should thank your lucky stars that you were made whole, and not living out a cardboard box.
     
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  38. Mujahideen

    Mujahideen Black Member Midas Member

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    lol........
     
  39. LT2014

    LT2014 New Member

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    You and Scorpio can kiss my a--. Now close my account. I met HT face to face and I still have nightmares over the encounter. How dare you guys speak against people who were hurt by Tulving. He ruined a lot of lives including mine. May justice prevail. I now delete this website link. I'm done here.
     
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  40. hernancortes

    hernancortes Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Tried to make good on every order? I'm thinking more like "I'll just go ahead and go full Ponzi when the numbers look hopeless". Sounds like he was desperate to save his own hide and his customers be damned.
     
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