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Tulving, the aftermath from 3.4.14

Discussion in 'PM Dealer Feedback' started by BeefJerky, Mar 4, 2014.



  1. About.Ag

    About.Ag Seeker Seeker

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    The problem is people DID do their due diligence, but just made a mistake in it.

    From everything I have seen, Hannes ran the business successfully for 20 years. As everyone knows, he had many, many customers who had placed many orders with him (the average customer placed over 5 orders), and almost always got their product a couple days after ordering. Nobody beat his prices or delivery time (or 24-hour ordering).

    So right there, you have most of the people that are now creditors: they had ordered from him before, had done their due diligence, just didn't repeat it.

    Then, there's the first wave of people that got stuck: they ordered up until around October or so of 2013. Up until around that point, there were few complaints about delays (with hindsight, we can see complaints, but most were pooh-poohed as being competitors, complainers, or trolls). So they did their due diligence (or if not, it would have come up clean).

    There is also the group of people that ordered after word got out on the forums. By around December, 2013 or so, typing "Tulving" into Google would have shown a couple hits about problems. But guess what? I never typed "Tulving" into Google before placing an order. And you get people whose brother-in-law has for years talked about this guy Tulving, and they finally place an order. Can you really blame them?

    Finally, there could well be some cases where you could place some blame on the creditor. But what good does that do?

    Remember, too, different people have different levels of trust, many people don't know what due diligence to do, etc.
     
  2. luckabuck

    luckabuck Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    You were a cheerleader for Hannes when all his "CHEERLEADERS" were hammering me for my criticism of him, and you are still an arrogant, ignorant "CHEERLEADER" for him now. Just don't believe the facts about this scam artist do you after he has gone bankrupt twice scamming people out of their money.
     
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  3. Scorpio

    Scorpio Скорпион Founding Member Board Elder Site Mgr Site Supporter ++

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    thanks for the comments guys, as I thought it was time to bring in the other side,

    we all have to remain responsible at all times,

    when I first went in, I had chose Don Stott at Colorado Gold, why? Because the guy was flat honorable and his history was impeccable. Not to mention, you could call him up and get real customer service.

    as for whether or not I am smarter than the next guy, so not true, dumber than a box of rocks. But that is my plight.

    We have all heard the investing term 'don't put your eggs in one basket', it speaks to this

    We have all seen or at least heard of the Enron debacle, where long time workers had all their dough tied up in the mother company out of greed and belief in mother ship, only to be wiped out,

    Did you also know that the hedgie who bought kmart and used that to leverage a buyout of sears is quietly dismantling the company for its real estate? Could give 2 figs about the retail, is destroying 2 companies for his fiat gain?

    Or how about the hedgie pos who bought NW airlines back in the day, sold all the planes to himself and then he personally leased them back to the airline company? Eventually going bankrupt, the company that is.

    We could go on and on about the shenanigans in the corporate world, and they are there for all to see.

    As for gold and silver, my goodness we have spoke to it many times over the years to cover your six at all times with any companies or investments.

    The Bre-x scandal in metals, the liars standing over holes in the ground, the unfulfilled promises. The industry is rife with examples.

    We truly have, time and again,

    and what was the huge gain with Tulving? A smaller vig fee.

    and yes I do side with the guys who have been busted by this pos, make no mistake about that. It just pains me deeply that so many have been harmed so greatly while in fact being preventable.
     
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  4. Krag

    Krag Planet earth Platinum Bling

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    This thread is proof on why PM buyers must stay up on current reality on dealers; if major dealers are not setting up at coin shows and keeping up with current technology like APMEX, they should be losing serious business. I remember how good FJ Vollmer was and how they got out of the business when they had had enough around 2000. How Gaithersburg coin has been going downhill for quite a while now with complaints online about them. How many coin dealers in general are shady and disreputable but how many are good and honest still like APMEX, but they are not perfect, I have been burned by them too. Many of the biggest telemarketer sellers of gold and silver products like Blanchard, Goldline, etc. are high priced con-artists in some cases switching a plain interest in PMs and Constitutional money for MS70/PR70 coins at ridiculous premiums.

    I would continue to advise people to go to coin shows to buy or sell PMs for cash as many are still doing. The Parsippany and Albany coin shows next weekend are proof of honest money dealers with tight buy/sell spreads and no nonsense dealers but plenty who play the numismatic game with their rubes. I hope Tulving gets what's coming to him with the state and federal authorities intent on putting him behind bars. People are only as sick as their secrets and he is one hurting and sick puppy.
     
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  5. Scorpio

    Scorpio Скорпион Founding Member Board Elder Site Mgr Site Supporter ++

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    Krag, that is exactly why this thread remains open to all,

    It is important stuff

    matter of fact, back when people were pounding the hell out of lucka for even questioning the guys integrity, we brought that up, where times change, and that no one or company is above question.

    at that time, there was lack of verification, but signs were indeed appearing. Lucka was crucified by others for his commentary, and yet as stated prior, time has proven whose word was honorable.
     
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  6. anotherdave

    anotherdave Banned

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    Stick around, LT2014, or a least come back under a different handle. Somebody has to keep the management here honest.

    Scorp, Tulving committed a fraud, R-I-P-O-F-F.
     
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  7. Krag

    Krag Planet earth Platinum Bling

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    "Stick around, LT2014, or a least come back under a different handle. Somebody has to keep the management here honest."

    Reminds me of some coin dealers; they get shut down as "Sunrise Coins" and then they reopen as "Noontime coins" and finally reopen as "Sunset Coins" etc.. I doubt anyone here did business with "Sunshine Rarities" from Boca Raton; Jimmy got in lots of trouble then finally ran a while as "Spare Change"; last I heard he was doing time as a guest of the state or federal government.
     
  8. Nickelless

    Nickelless If coffee is gold, I own Fort Knox Midas Member

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    So are you not doing business with him any more, Scorp? If not, why not?
     
  9. DualCarbon

    DualCarbon Seeker Seeker

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    When people have control over other people's stuff, they always steal it. This is guaranteed to happen - it always does. If you have a precious metals IRA, APMEX Citadel Storage, Gainesville Secure Storage, GoldMoney allocated storage, Bullion Vault, or whatever expect 100% your gold to disappear eventually, remember this. This can happen between the time you order and delivery as with Tulving. And when your gold does disappear, the friendly people here will certainly blame you.
     
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  10. pitw

    pitw Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    Totally disagree.
     
  11. DualCarbon

    DualCarbon Seeker Seeker

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    Really, how many examples are needed to show this? Whenever someone or group is in control of other people's stuff/money it eventually disappears.
    This is what I mean:
    Central banks are stealing money worldwide via debasement and financial repression slowly, but likely to accelerate
    Corporations are rife with theft - not all of them have collapsed like Enron, MFGlobal, PFGBest, Worldcom, and many more
    PM Dealers - Tulving, National Gold Exchange, International Rarities, etc.
    Fund managers - Madoff, Steven Cohen, Stanford Financial, etc.
    Banks - plenty
    Stocks - title to stocks is often handled by the DTCC unless you hold actual stock certificates. This is an area that will show many people dont have what they think they do.
     
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  12. pitw

    pitw Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    You may be totally right on those groups as I can't say one way or the other from experience. I can say from experience that there are honest people who will look after your money, farm, livelihood and family.
     
  13. luckabuck

    luckabuck Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Unfortunately, these people are not plentiful. Tulving tried to take me for $280,000, until I got law enforcement involved. I do not have nearly the amount of trust in people that I used to have.
     
  14. pitw

    pitw Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    Can't blame you for losing the trust then. Hope you can get some back[trust I mean].
     
  15. DualCarbon

    DualCarbon Seeker Seeker

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    I don't think the lesson should be how can we effectively trust more or have more trustworthy companies/institutions. The lesson should be to not allow people to control other people's money. Don't rely on the trust model at all. This is not likely to happen soon as there is too much profit using and eventually stealing other's money. Currently, it is up to the individual try to keep their own money/property often through more difficult means; for example keeping stock certificates, storing gold themselves, and I don't know what else.
     
  16. Usury

    Usury Gold Chaser Platinum Bling

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    IMO, the lesson is how to protect yourself. DYODD!!!!!

    Also, I've often thought that if I really was in a position to buy six figures worth of metals all at once, I'd be doing it with an armed guard (likely a family member), face to face--exchange the money for the metal or no deal. For that much, it'd be worth a day or two road trip.
     
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  17. southfork

    southfork Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    Bottom line is if he took orders knowing he couldn't fill them he belongs in jail.
     
  18. anotherdave

    anotherdave Banned

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    All my money is in IRA CDs with the bank. Can't get any safer than that!
     
  19. luckabuck

    luckabuck Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Yep! Spoken with sarcasm!
     
  20. Ahillock

    Ahillock A nobody Mother Lode

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    What I take away from this is to listen to the little canary. Even if the canary is new to the forum and even if long term members gang up and attack said canary. Maybe, just maybe that canary has something worthwhile to share. If he didn't, would he really be getting attacked?
     
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  21. JayDubya

    JayDubya Gold Chaser Platinum Bling

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    What I find especially ironic is that those who jumped on luckabuck belittled others for not wanting to hear the truth.

    They held themselves up as shining examples of someone who was presenting "just the facts" and stated several times that the pumpers couldn't handle the truth because the truth hurt.

    While that particular scenario may well have been true, it's extremely ironic how they, could not then, and most likely do not now, see how hypocritical they were being when luckabuck presented them with "just the facts" is this scenario.
     
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  22. southfork

    southfork Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    If memory serves one of his biggest cheerleaders admitted he'd never purchased from tulving before also.
     
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  23. Scorpio

    Scorpio Скорпион Founding Member Board Elder Site Mgr Site Supporter ++

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    further irony,

    all the major cheerleaders have blown this pop stand for other pastures
     
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  24. luckabuck

    luckabuck Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Can you say, "so embarrassed that you look like an idiot", and spoke up to prove it.
     
  25. Chester-Copperpot

    Chester-Copperpot Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter Platinum Bling

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    You banned them silly.
     
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  26. Scorpio

    Scorpio Скорпион Founding Member Board Elder Site Mgr Site Supporter ++

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    check that, only a couple of them that threatened the site,

    so the reality is, they banned themselves

    and I have to give it to 'cubed, he manned up over it all,

    solid by him
     
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  27. Montecristo

    Montecristo Silver Member Silver Miner

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    There are a couple new updates posted by about.ag on his websites.

    About.ag,

    It seems to me, and this is just conjecture on my part, that the theory that Mr. Nielsen does not want to communicate with you because you are doing for free and more efficiently and already have the infrastructure in place, what he can charge $300 an hour for and take his time doing it thereby billing more hours, has merit. But that is my opinion only.
     
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  28. luckabuck

    luckabuck Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Thanks for reminding us about every bullion collectors friend, Hannes Tulving.
     
  29. About.Ag

    About.Ag Seeker Seeker

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    That does sound about right to me. It is really clear that I have managed to get under his skin, but he won't say why. The only reason that would be is because he doesn't want people to know why.

    He gave a spiel at the Creditors' Meeting about how he has a policy not to talk to anybody except creditors and attorneys that represent them, and that is why he won't communicate with me. A cute response, but that doesn't explain why he did respond to some of my questions early on. Nor does it explain why when he got my first E-mail, and I said in the second sentence "I hope it is appropriate for me to contact you directly," he didn't simply respond and say "Thank you, but I have a policy to only talk directly to creditors." He left the door open, so to speak, until he saw how I was pushing for the creditors (specifically, making sure the court knew there were a lot more creditors than they thought). He then had me get creditors to contact him, and hr then started telling them how I cost them thousands of dollars.

    If Mr. Neilson is hiding something, I'm going to do my best to find it.
     
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  30. About.Ag

    About.Ag Seeker Seeker

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    I think the most interesting is that Mr. Neilson stated that Mr. Tulving used customer money to gamble in the commodities futures market (as I had speculated), using A-Mark (which nobody had guessed). And that the CFTC is investigating A-Mark.

    So it sounds like A-Mark -- a supplier and competitor of Tulving -- took a whole lot of money from Tulving, and either knew or should have known that it was customers' money. They had a loan agreement (so they had to check his credit and check Tulving's financials), and must have known that there was no way he could spend $20M a year or so a year on futures contracts.

    It will be interesting to find out exactly what kind of money was involved here (e.g. if this was just one of several places Tulving was sending cash), and what kind of contracts were involved (e.g. if they were contracts where it was obvious Tulving didn't need them, such as going short $100M of gold).
     
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  31. Ensoniq

    Ensoniq Midas Member Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    Is it legal to be a creditor after the fact? Couldn't you buy a small portion of someone's loss (I.e. $100), just enough to achieve shareholder standing. It would eliminate the excuse why he couldn't talk to you.
     
  32. About.Ag

    About.Ag Seeker Seeker

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    I should really look into that -- I believe it would be perfectly legal to buy out someone's entire share of the proceeds (I was just reading that A-Mark sold their share of what they were owed in the MFG bankruptcy), so buying a portion should be legal.

    And boy, would that get R. Todd Neilson upset!

    In reality, though, he would come up with some other reason not to talk to me. Perhaps he might go with honesty, and "I now have a policy not to talk to anyone I do not like" might work!
     
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  33. About.Ag

    About.Ag Seeker Seeker

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    I contacted A-Mark to see if they wanted to comment, and they have chosen not to respond.

    Perhaps the corporate equivalent of pleading the fifth?
     
  34. southfork

    southfork Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    I doubt that creditors will get 1 penny on the dollar, I had invested in a securiites firm in NJ years back that was shut down by the SEC, Though millions of dollars were seized by the recievers in the end investors got back less than a nickel on the dollar after the courts and attorneys got their fees, its akin to common theft.
     
  35. About.Ag

    About.Ag Seeker Seeker

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    It all depends on those two factors -- how much is collected, and how much goes out in fees.

    The key question at this point is where the money went, and whether or not it can be recovered.

    R. Todd Neilson, the trustee, made a statement that makes it sound like Tulving lost a lot of the money (if not all) to A-Mark, gambling in the commodities futures markets, and that the CFTC is investigating. A-Mark refuses to comment.

    So that narrows it down to whether or not A-Mark could be responsible and/or have to return some or all of the money (such as through a preference a/k/a claw back). Given that Tulving was a dealer of A-Mark, a competitor of theirs, took out a secured loan with A-Mark *and* was dealing in some sort of commodities contracts with them, there is a decent chance that they may be responsible (the idea being they had to have known that Tulving couldn't afford to lose so much money without using customer funds). While Tulving brought in $675M or so in revenue in 2011 (and in some industries, losing $20M of that in speculation might not be problematic), A-Mark also knew that Tulving operates on razor-thin margins, and could not afford to lose $.75 for every $25 ounce of silver they sold (or $45 for every $1,500 ounce of gold they sold), without using customer money.

    A-Mark has a lot to lose here, even if they come out not owing money -- they have thousands of big bullion purchasers who were seriously inconvenienced and/or stressed by this, and somewhere in the order of 1,000 bullion purchasers who lost a minimum of $10,000 each that perhaps could have been avoided had A-Mark done their homework. Word hasn't really gotten out about this (it doesn't help that Kitco is highly censoring the Tulving issues), but when it does, A-Mark will probably need to address this.
     
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  36. Usc96

    Usc96 Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Had never heard of A-Mark (which is not unusual as I am more a collector of numismatics than bullion), but a quick google search reveals they are publicly traded on the NASDAQ. This could get interesting.
     
  37. Ensoniq

    Ensoniq Midas Member Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    Yes. I wouldn't want to have the deepest pockets in this mess
     
  38. Usc96

    Usc96 Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    And I certainly wouldn't want to be their insurance Carrier.
     
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  39. About.Ag

    About.Ag Seeker Seeker

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    I put up a new page at http://about.ag/amark.htm that goes into a lot of detail.

    I've found 3 of the companies that A-Mark sold these forward contracts to that had troubles in the past: 1 filed for bankruptcy, and 2 were investigated by the CFTC. In all 3 cases, it appears that the customers of A-Mark's customers lost money as a result.
     
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  40. southfork

    southfork Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    Saw that AG, I find it hard to believe tulving was going long in the market when silver was continually on the decline thru the problematic last 12 months of his tenure, if anything he should have made a killing as prices were declining and he was kiting money by delaying orders. If he went long options he was a complete idiot.
     

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