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What If Buying Coffee Was Like Buying ObamaCare ????

Discussion in 'Politics Forum (Local/National/World)' started by Goldhedge, Mar 14, 2017.



  1. Goldhedge

    Goldhedge Moderator Site Mgr Site Supporter

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  2. TAEZZAR

    TAEZZAR LADY JUSTICE ISNT BLIND, SHES JUST AFRAID TO WATCH Midas Member Site Supporter

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    Very sick, therefore very accurate, BUT Very Good !!!
     
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  3. Fanakapan

    Fanakapan Midas Member Midas Member Site Supporter

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    Look guys, ya cant market healthcare as you would most other goods or services, for the simple reason that folk will only want it when they're hip dip in the klart. Its not what you would call a discretionary purchase.

    As for the Government angle, its a fact that maybe 75% of any population are more stupid than ought to be allowed by law ? Now whilst we happy few on GIM will likely be able to make life decisions based upon considered judgement, there are going to be millions out there who will do precisely the opposite. Thats why some measure of regulation by government is a Necessity, the trick is finding a happy medium.

    Back on healthcare, the only way you can make it work is by a system of Everybody paying a modest amount from the minute they start earning. If you dont do that then skads of people are simply going to forego paying for it whilst in their healthy younger years, which means that the costs have to be borne by a diminished base, which in turn means higher bills for those who start to pay because they'm getting older and having health worries.

    Pretty much every other civilised country in the world has figured it out. But I extend my commiserations to Americans, a combination of the Big Business interests, and the guys who been paying Big prices over the years will effectively scupper any chance you have of getting out of the Gong Show that passes for healthcare in the USA.

    As for President Trump managing to come up with a solution, I'm beginning to wonder if the campaign talk was just that ? Although the basic facts of the conundrum must have been plain to him even if he had not given the matter too much consideration, and from what we've seen so far, the chances of his walking the walk on healthcare look dimmer by the week. And remember guys, if President Trump fails badly on the headline issues he campaigned upon, the the other crowd will be back a lot sooner than many of those at present thinking the Democrats to be vanquished for a generation could possibly imagine.
     
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  4. nickndfl

    nickndfl Midas Member Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    One problem in the USA is that the middle class gets stuck with paying for most of those who do not pay taxes. There are approximately 47% in the USA who do not pay income taxes and nobody wants a VAT to cover healthcare. That would be the only equitable solution.
     
  5. GOLDBRIX

    GOLDBRIX God,Donald Trump,most in GIM2 I Trust. OTHERS-meh Site Supporter Platinum Bling

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    There would be a lot less coffee drinkers.
     
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  6. GOLDZILLA

    GOLDZILLA Harvurd Koleej Jeenyus Midas Member

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    Pretty much the only way to win these days is to become a bum.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Well there's the problem right there! They don't want a "modest" amount, they want an amount far beyond anything that most would consider "modest".
    No, the answer is to actually reduce the costs at the time of service. Finding creative ways to force everyone to support those high prices is insanity.


    Actually they don't. Those in the upper class are the ones that get soaked no matter how much the middle and lower pay or don't pay.


    Damn skippy. To allow a VAT tax would be a huge mistake.
    Ie: the gov does not need any new revenue sources that can then start having its rates slowly ratcheted up. In fact, we need eliminate most sources of revenue for gov. It's the only way to even begin trying to have a small gov with limits on power in line with the intent of the Founders.
     
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  8. Fanakapan

    Fanakapan Midas Member Midas Member Site Supporter

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    The amount is not painless because the dogs breakfast system that has evolved has so many Not paying, that the folks who do pay have a lot of ground to make up to cover the whole. The simplest way is to stick a buck on something nearly everybody buys fairly often, and make sure that the proceeds actually go into some system of healthcare, thereby ensuring that everybody pays into the system. You need to make healthcare free (or nearly so) at the point of delivery, and get the money to cover most of the cost by means other than imagining that its a marketable commodity.

    Healthcare is said to be 17% of US GDP, and the CEO's of HealthCo's figure large in the lists of top earning business leaders. Now if you guys had a healthcare system that made sense, I'd have to think those figures would come down by about 5%. And 5% of US GDP is a lot of gravy that a few folks would miss Big Style ?

    The part where the rubber meets the road, is whether that small number of people who are benefiting hugely, have more sway over the USG than some millions of ordinary citizens ? Its maybe the case that we already know the answer to that one.

    Not that it'll get me any points here, but I'd have to imagine that the late Ted Kennedy had the best of intentions all those years he was pushing healthcare reform, and its a measure of the power of the vested interests that even the Affordable Care Act was virtually made to accommodate the wishes of the interests that would lose out in the event that healthcare in the USA was brought into the 21st century. Hence its appalling failure to live up to what was promised. Of course short of conducting a seance we'll never know what Teddy boy would have thought of the finished package, but its hard to imagine that he could even of thought it was a step in the right direction ?

    And it seems that the Republicans, despite the impression of change on offer that was given on the campaign trail, are suggesting an alternative that again will cause the beneficiaries of overpriced healthcare, no sleepless nights ?
     
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  9. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    The problem with that explanation is the fact that prior to O'care, there was "only" about $40billion/yr in unpaid medical bills in the US.
    While that is a rather large number, it only represents approx $125/person.

    So you're saying that in order to cover that small amount of un-paid med bills, everyones insurance premiums need to increase by 1,000's per year?

    So, what are they doing with the extra money over and above the $125 needed per person? Heck, double it and give 'em $250. It'd still be much cheaper than the system we've had foisted upon us, and all the bills would have been paid.
     
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  10. lumpOgold

    lumpOgold Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    "How would you pay for programs you don't want?" is exactly the problem.
     
  11. Fanakapan

    Fanakapan Midas Member Midas Member Site Supporter

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    Looks a little light to me.

    Check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_finance_in_the_United_States Looks to me as if the G is on the hook for somewhere between 1/3 to a 1/2 of healthcare costs in the USA ? So maybe your figure is just insured folks who stiffed the system ?

    Its a pretty opaque article, so its likely that the HealthCo's have had some input on its content, being Wikipedia an all ?

    More than likely, plain reading figures, and who pays what for healthcare, are in the same vault as Joan Crawfords porn films :)
     
  12. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    The point is that the $41B number was used back in 2010 to help sell O'care. After all, unpaid charges is the touted reason for providers having to grossly overcharge for services.

    The numbers you are using includes gov programs like medicare/medicaid and those get paid. My figure is for the over-all amount in billed medical services that for whatever reason, was going unpaid. Ie: that's the amount they are supposedly covering when padding the patients original bill for services.
     
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  13. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Here's a vid that spotlights a big problem with health care in America.

    A guys wife is pregnant, so he does some research on how much it costs to deliver a baby. He discovers that the charges for a normal no-complications birth can vary by as much as a factor of 10

    So he does what any cost-conscious parent would do. He starts calling hospitals in his area to find out what their typical charges are for a normal no-complications delivery, only to be told that they don't know.
    Keep in mind that child birth is one of the most common services provided in a hospital. Not knowing how much the average charge is would be like an auto shop not being able to quote the base price for an oil change.

    In every other industry, we have price competition, with prices for products and services quoted up front prior to the actual sale of said goods.
    ...but with healthcare one must use the services with no idea ahead of time how much anything costs. Imagine going out to eat and having to order and consume the food prior to being told how much it costs. The very idea is absurd, but with healthcare we're supposed to just act as though it's normal.




     
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  14. Fanakapan

    Fanakapan Midas Member Midas Member Site Supporter

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    Healthcare by its very nature, ie, the need for centralised regulation because its a product that'll kill its customers dead without careful oversight, is a Monopoly ?

    Competition in a monopoly ?
     
  15. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    In that regard, electrical work could be considered a monopoly too....but it's not because while all electricians can do the same thing, they charge different prices and are up front about it.

    All I'm sayin' is that the providers need to publish prices for all their standard services so that people have at least some idea what they will be charged prior to choosing a doctor or hospital. I realize that price shopping is not always possible due to emergency situations, but there are many many non-emergency doctor visits and surgeries performed each year. If even those people could make an informed choice it might cause providers to start pricing their services properly.


    Like I asked, what other services do people buy that they have no clue as to what it will cost until after the services are used?
    Ever take your car into the shop and tell 'em to just fix it, that they can tell ya the cost afterwards?
    Ever hire an electrician or plumber without getting an estimate first?
    Ever hire someone to mow your lawn without first knowing how much they'll charge you?
    Ever go grocery shopping without knowing any of the prices for anything you're buying until after it's all rung up?
    Ever buy a plane ticket and just give 'em your CC# without first asking how much?

    Nobody I know does any of those things that way. So why is it deemed acceptable to charge for healthcare that way? Because they're runnin' a scam, that's why. With the govs blessings, the entire healthcare industry including the insurance companies, are colluding to screw over their customers. That's why they don't want prices published. Their paychecks are dependent upon the customer being completely ignorant of what any of it actually costs.
     
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  16. Fanakapan

    Fanakapan Midas Member Midas Member Site Supporter

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    Its a good point. And some benchmark of pricing would be good. However it would put a crimp on the ability of the providers to raise prices as they have done since the system went out of control sometime in the 70's. So the vested interests who've obfuscated costs and profits to their own benefit would likely look askance at any measure that promoted it ?
     
  17. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    That's the time they really started leaning how to run the scam.


    Well of course. Have you ever had a good thing goin' and liked it when someone came along threatening to screw it all up?
     
  18. Someone_else

    Someone_else Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Here is a hospital that DOES give pricing. It should be a business model for others.
    surgerycenterok.com/pricing/
     
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  19. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Yea, I've posted up about that place many times.

    If they can do it that way, all of 'em can.
    The biggest difference is that they do not accept insurance and can therefor charge reasonable prices. I've seen examples of their prices that are cheaper than the patient portion of the bill from the hospital down the street for the exact same services.
     
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  20. GOLDBRIX

    GOLDBRIX God,Donald Trump,most in GIM2 I Trust. OTHERS-meh Site Supporter Platinum Bling

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    What most are overlooking is every county in the U.S. has a Health Department. Their ORIGINAL designation was to PROVIDE medical needs to the county residence that could not afford it. AND work with local hospitals when a poor person would need extensive medical treatment or a surgery.
    The years of employer provided Healthcare caused the Health Department to find justifications to stay relevant.
    The Health Departments schemed the issues of inspecting Food Stores and restaurants and now most are Tobacco Police where they have push No Smoking laws through local politicians.
    Like most bureaucrats they DO NOT want to do the work they were intended to do. They want to do what THEY WANT to DO.

    Do Not Believe me DYODD. When you have a few hours to waste. Drop in to your local Health Department. Tell them you have a trip scheduled for South Africa or anywhere malaria is still found and you need the vaccination. The Heath department is about the only place that carries that vaccine. Your Family Doctor Don't.
    If you live close to a urban area you probably WILL see people waiting to get treatment for their medical issues.

    THIS IS ALL POLITICS AND HAS BEEN FOR DECADES.

    PUBLIC HEATH ( The medical people whose run around it para-military officer uniforms. A lot work Indian Reservations) came under the same problems.

    America HAS medical availability it is being kept a big secret to get more out of your pocketbook $$$$$$ for Big Pharma, Big Insurance, Big Medical.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2017

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