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Why is the constitution so reviled?

Discussion in 'Topical Discussions (In Depth)' started by Scorpio, May 17, 2017.



  1. Scorpio

    Scorpio Скорпион Founding Member Board Elder Site Mgr Site Supporter ++

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    We all remember the statement, 'its only a goddamn piece of paper',
    or 'it depends what you mean by constitutional'
    or 'it is outdated'
    etc.

    BB and I were discussing this today and I proposed that it is human ego and psychiatric characteristics.

    In this, we have all seen multiple instances of not abiding by constitutional principles, or disparaging the constitution. You have seen it and so have I.

    Why is this? I proposed that it is because to do so, or to acquiesce to the writings of the constitution would also be subjugation to someone else ie the creators of that document. They would have to be humble, and accept the role as such.

    Where these people don't want to be 'caretakers' of the prior written, they have more illustrious motives and objectives in mind. They want to put their own name in the history books. They want to be remembered.

    They want to prove that they have the better way, that they are smarter than the original founders, or at the very least, equivalent.

    Oh sure, we always hear the justifications, it is outdated, it wouldn't apply in this situation, or that does not work in modern society, etc.

    But, if you boil it down, it really is human greed and ego. The social security act, no one will ever forget that pos's name. Kenyan care, same thing. The Great Society, is also an easy one.

    Not a damn one of them are constitutional, no matter what the dumb@#$ libtards or bleeding hearts would have you believe. Yet there they are, all committed to history with someones name attached to them.

    You only need to drive around a town near you. The 'XXX' pavillion. The 'YYY' school. Where time and again you see these egoists agreeing to donate their fiat to a particular item, provided it is named after them. Watch them shrivel away if they cannot put their swastika on it for all time.

    It is no different in the political realm, only the consequences can be far more reaching and certainly more dark.

    Only the dishonest would argue that the 'great society' programs have been successful. Only the truly stupid would argue that the social security tax as a program works to the benefit of the avg person.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
  2. Pyramid

    Pyramid Gold Member Gold Chaser Site Supporter

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    The Bill of Rights was a superior document and added critical elements to the Constitution IMO. The Constitution was passed in 1787, the Bill of Rights in 1791. James Madison wrote most of both under the tutelage of his mentor Thomas Jefferson. Alexander Hamilton was an opponent and crown crony opposing Madison. Hamiltonian's are now modern-day globalists. Very important topic, please share your research and knowledge.


    http://billofrightsinstitute.org/founding-documents/constitution/
     
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  3. Scorpio

    Scorpio Скорпион Founding Member Board Elder Site Mgr Site Supporter ++

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    I hear ya Pyramid, as it is 2 very different schools of thought and direction,
     
  4. BarnacleBob

    BarnacleBob GIM Founding Member & Mod. Founding Member Site Mgr Site Supporter

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    The CON-stitution isnt what it appears to be nor its enforcement. We the inhabitants & state residents are not the direct subject or the object the federal constitution is aimed at... From one perspective "We the People" are the several [e]states held in a perpetual federalized revocable trust, while on the other hand the Federal .gov serves as a collection agency for international & domestic creditors.... in this respect the constitution serves as a blanket international lien from sea to shining sea. The Bill of Rights merely serves as a statement of immunities against collections & enforcement.

    NO TREASON: THE CONSTITUTION OF NO AUTHORITY

    http://praxeology.net/LS-NT-6.htm

    Audio Presentation:

    https://mises.org/library/section-i
     
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  5. Goldhedge

    Goldhedge Moderator Site Mgr Site Supporter

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    Nobody likes to be limited.

    Politicians are no different especially when Ben Franklin is waved in front of their pie holes...
     
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  6. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Exactly. Our govs Founding Document makes the power hungry in society, the ones the Founders knew would be attracted to the power high government positions bring, work hard and be extra creative in their attempts to not be bound by limitations on that power.

    Correctly interpreted the Constitution is written in a manner to mostly restrain gov actions. Especially gov action against the People.

    If it had been the work of nefarious overlords bent on subjugating the People, it would have been written in a wholly opposite manner. As it is, the ones who were/are looking to radically increase gov power over the People, are mostly limited to two Clauses in the whole thing. The Commerce Clause and General Welfare Clause. However, both of those must be mis-interpreted to even begin to justify what's been done. The Commerce Clause was never intended to be used in the manner it is currently being used. The Commerce Clause was meant to regulate trade between the States in a manner such as what happens between sovereign nations. The General Welfare Clause was meant to promote the general welfare of the newly created government itself, (Ie: the ten mile square and its related properties) not the day to day welfare of the People and/or States.
     
  7. Mujahideen

    Mujahideen Black Member Midas Member

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    It is just a piece of paper. What it says won't protect you, paper can't protect you.

    I see it as a set of rules, but we all know rules are broken. Take the first and 2nd amendment for example. I can't display child porn images while I'm carrying around an M16 with a silencer and M203 attached.

    What good are the rules if they can't be enforced? Might makes right, period. If you can't defend yourself then your so called rights won't be respected.
     
  8. Scorpio

    Scorpio Скорпион Founding Member Board Elder Site Mgr Site Supporter ++

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    from the link provided by BB:


    NT.6.0.1

    The first and second numbers of this series were published in 1867. For reasons not necessary to be explained, the sixth is now published in advance of the third, fourth, and fifth.

    NO TREASON

    No. VI.

    THE CONSTITUTION OF NO AUTHORITY.


    I.

    NT.6.1.1
    The Constitution has no inherent authority or obligation. It has no authority or obligation at all, unless as a contract between man and man. And it does not so much as even purport to be a contract between persons now existing. It purports, at most, to be only a contract between persons living eighty years ago. And it can be supposed to have been a contract then only between persons who had already come to years of discretion, so as to be competent to make reasonable and obligatory contracts. Furthermore, we know, historically, that only a small portion even of the people then existing were consulted on the subject, or asked, or permitted to express either their consent or dissent in any formal manner. Those persons, if any, who did give their consent formally, are all dead now. Most of them have been dead forty, fifty, sixty, or seventy years. And the constitution, so far as it was their contract, died with them. They had no natural power or right to make it obligatory upon their children. It is not only plainly impossible, in the nature of things, that they could bind their posterity, but they did not even attempt to bind them. That is to say, the instrument does not purport to be an agreement between any body but “the people” then existing; nor does it, either expressly or impliedly, assert any right, power, or disposition, on their part, to bind anybody but themselves. Let us see. Its language is:

    “We, the people of the United States (that is, the people then existing in the United States), in order to form a more perfect union, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”

    NT.6.1.2 It is plain, in the first place, that this language, as an agreement, purports to be only what it at most really was, viz., a contract between the people then existing; and, of necessity, binding, as a contract, only upon those then existing. In the second place, the language neither expresses nor implies that they had any right or power, to bind their “posterity” to live under it. It does not say that their “posterity” will, shall, or must live under it. It only says, in effect, that their hopes and motives in adopting it were that it might prove useful to their posterity, as well as to themselves, by promoting their union, safety, tranquility, liberty, etc.

    much more at the link:
    http://praxeology.net/LS-NT-6.htm
     
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  9. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Perhaps not at the time that was written in 1867, but in ensuing years their children and children's children etc etc etc, ended up making it obligatory upon themselves when they went on to sign fed.gov documents that make specific declarations as to their particular legal status relative to the fed.gov and/or their own State gov's
    Ie: should one expect to be able to claim benefit of a prior agreement and then complain when expected to hold up his end of said agreement? There's a reason why things like SS are not truly mandatory, but rather highly suggested. No where will you find a legally binding imposition for anyone to apply for a SSN.
    If things like that were truly mandatory, people would have a legitimate bitch as they would actually be being forced to do something against their will. As it is in the case of SS, upon reaching age of majority, ones acceptance and use of the number constitutes evidence of its acceptance. Edited to add: including its terms.

    If anything, we have an educatin problem when it comes to communicating to upcoming generations how these things work and the impacts, both good and bad, upon ones life they may have.
    Ie: we've made it too easy for too many to be and to stay ignorant.
     
  10. BarnacleBob

    BarnacleBob GIM Founding Member & Mod. Founding Member Site Mgr Site Supporter

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    It should be noted that oaths of office, national citizenship & registration of elector status (voting) once created the legal nexus in support of the constitution 1787. This nexus was in operation until the 1930's when the Progressives manufactured the status of U.S. citizen.

    Legally there is a profound difference between a Citizen of the United States (a proper noun meaning one of the several states), citizen of the United States (an individual in support of the constitution) & a U.S. citizen (a 14th amendment commercial entity relieved of constitutional burdens).

    Essentially there are three U.S. .govs operating at the same time. One is the constitutional .gov of 1787 with its two recognized Citizens & citizens with political checks & balances, the second being the 14A CONTRACT progressive liberal unchecked commercial version with its EQUAL U.S. citizens operating under Lex Mercatoria (law merchant), and thirdly the International Version operating under international maritime law & treaties.

    Support for either form of .gov has always been via a voluntary CONTRACT AGREEMENT whether it was/is the 1787 constitution (citizen of the United States) or the 14A organization (U.S. citizen). The Bill of Rights was codified to protect ALL of the immigrants, inhabitants & residents that do not participate or do not qualify to participate in the political processes.

    The newly established constitutional fed .gov of 1787 relied upon steady immigration from Europe to grow & build the new nation. New immigrants entering the U.S. possessed no political protections from the political machinery dominated by the wealthy land owners & industrialists of the period. Thus the BoR was added to entice immigration by providing protections to those that did not qualify to engage in polity.... Namely legal protections from the wealthy who would use .gov to exploit labor & property for their use.

    The biggest misunderstanding concerning constitutional law is that the written & unwritten constitutions (1787, 14A & state constitutions) are but mere limitations on .gov incursions & powers. The BoR doesnt actually provide any protections, it is written as a limitation on .gov activities!

    The major difference between the constitutions & BoR is this, citizenship requires voluntary action via contract to participate in the machinery of politics, the BoR is freely available to all natural persons regardless of their political status, its the "LAW of the 'LAND'"... it applys to geographic location.... if your standing on U.S. territory or in one of the several states its applicable to all immigrants, inhabitants, residents & the various classes of citizenship....

    "Residents & citizenship" are legal classifications that create privileges & duties, not liberties, freedoms & rights... Inhabitants are not members of the body politic & do not engage in polity, political privileges or duties. It is this reason that the emergency"New Deal" .gov of 1933 created the sociopolitical compact called Democracy & public policy that creates legal duties & responsibilities for every class of persons (natural & corporate, etc.)... by this means the status of inhabitants & immigrants are prevented from legally escaping the clutch & far reaches of fed .gov..
     
  11. Scorpio

    Scorpio Скорпион Founding Member Board Elder Site Mgr Site Supporter ++

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    post 9, don't be so naive

    like the parents who wanted to negate vaccinating their newborn, they came in, took the kid, and vaccinated it and deemed the parents unfit.

    same applies for ssn numbers ie taxpayer number

    your comment belies the point that you do not realize it is a tax and it is mandatory, or you just want to propagate nonsense and misinformation.

    ohh sure, people can come in here and talk about the law this, and the lack of proof that, but it is all immaterial.
     
  12. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    What you are pointing out is the result of being surrounded by millions who ignorantly went along to get along. Yes, it becomes very hard to not go with the flow. I'm not blaming you or anyone else directly for it. Just explaining how we got here.

    Before one can do anything to fix a problem, one must understand it's true scope and nature. It's easy to claim victim status if one is ignorant of the true ramifications of their intentional actions.
    Ie: if someone sent you legally binding evidence of their indebtedness to you, would you not use that info in Court if it became necessary to do so?
     
  13. BarnacleBob

    BarnacleBob GIM Founding Member & Mod. Founding Member Site Mgr Site Supporter

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    Sorry to inform you but I'm not being naive, all of the sciences are grounded upon theory, including political, legal & social sciences.... theories that change directions like the wind!

    You bring up forced vaccinations... in a republic this lawfully cannot occur, however in a Democracy with its public policy to protect the masses what was once unlawful alchemically is transmuted into the lawful.

    And what drives this so called democracy & its laws? Special interests perverting the law to enrich themselves.... Vaccines for everyone, insurance for everyone, etc., etc., etc... None of which theoretically could prior to 1933 be legally forced upon a natural person w/o their consent.... the THEORY of liberalized PUBLIC POLICY is the direct root cause & machinery that is employed to fully exploit & enslave the peoples by the wealthy that hide behind corporations & their political agents & agencies....

    Do you deny that legal status & political organization was reformed & transmuted post 1933???

    Quotes from the book "My Father In-Law FDR" by Curtis Dall

    http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/New_World_Order/FDR_ExploitedFather-In-Law.html
     
  14. michael59

    michael59 heads up-butts down Site Supporter ++ Platinum Bling

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    First and foremost this Constitution is a Charter. Now what do charters do? Why a charter is something you do to set up a corporation. So each and every of the 50 has its charter and they kind of must be in alliance with the main charter they are organized under. Therefore all statute law must be in compliance also.

    So does this tanned skin or the words printed on it protect little ol me? No, only me knowing that I know that you know those words are there offers me any consolidation of protection, other than that we are all on our own. Which is our protection from the corporation in that we know that they know, or should know. But statute law has digressed from the charter by the mere use of definitions of words. Kind of strange when one thinks about murder being redefined as manslaughter when I think of it.

    Murder by definition is the taking of someone's life, yet statute enforcers get away with it all the time or are just not charged. So by statute law the main charters are bent away from "pursuit of happiness" and sidled with control over it by force. This way murder is legal for only a select few who follow prescribed rules and policy all ready written so those who would commit murder can fall back on those words.

    Now I just used murder because it is very understandable but this thought process generates as invasive to every thing dealing with law or lack there of. Are we supposed to pay a tax? No, but due to a treaty? Not sure if I am getting social security mixed up with the tax but anywhoo, one of them is bound on us by a treaty. Seems the issuing county needed a treaty with us to protect its people when they are here and because they taxed for benefits then we did also, all through treaty. So, by statute law via treaty this is forced upon us also which is odorous but whats a pee-on to do?
     
  15. BarnacleBob

    BarnacleBob GIM Founding Member & Mod. Founding Member Site Mgr Site Supporter

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    Exactly... SSI began as a treaty to provide immigrants with health & disability insurance in the event they became sick or injured while employed & working in the United States.... The treaty relieved the home country of providing for their citizens if they became sick or injured while working in the U.S..

    SSI today remains ONLY available to foreign resident aliens that politically reside outside of the citizenship created by the constitutions. Hence domestically SSI benefits are only available to individuals with a foreign resident status, i.e. U.S. citizens are foreign nationals!

    Henry Ford created his Citizenship Schools for his immigrant workers. He paid them a bonus & a higher wage if they became a citizen within 12 months of their employ. Once their political status was changed & they became citizens of the United States the Ford Motor Co. was exempted from remitting the SSI taxes on the worker... Henry was quite the patriot! LOL

    The use of treaties as an authority to create new laws is so highly abused its absurd. Yet there it is... Public Policy which is commercial law however takes the cake...

    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."-- H. L. Mencken
     
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  16. michael59

    michael59 heads up-butts down Site Supporter ++ Platinum Bling

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    And, I think This treaty was propagated by Puto Rico which is the corporate headquarters if the IRS. I am pretty sure I am correct but I might be wrong.
     
  17. Mujahideen

    Mujahideen Black Member Midas Member

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    Correct.

    If they want an unconstitutional law passed, all they have to do is make a treaty with anyone and then they have the authority to make the law.

    Edit to add: This is exactly how we have the war on drugs, and why the USA uses the UN to start wars with no declarations of war from congress.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
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  18. BarnacleBob

    BarnacleBob GIM Founding Member & Mod. Founding Member Site Mgr Site Supporter

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    The original ? is why is the constitution reviled?

    Like in the ancient days, the poor people are always seeking instant remedy & relief from the vicissitudes & sufferings of daily life & class struggles... Everyone wants a deity of some kind to save them! Gods, kings, presidents, emporers, tsars, & popes serve as the temporal "saviors" of providing hope to the hopeless farm animals...

    The constitution originally stood as a wall & barrier to this process.... the gates have fallen & the multitudes of the inept, lazy & ignorant demand more than they can possibly return back to society... Gov has become the maleficient monotheistic God with a pantheon of lesser gods (congress) providing remedy for all the ills that life doles out...

    The constitution once stood as guardian of this insidious process of taking via tax & regs what belongs to one man & giving it to another who hasnt earned it using the theory of the law perverted... and of course .gov is gonna take a 80% finders commission & enforcement fee.... !!! Cui Bono? Why the wealthy of course, the same group that has been controlling .gov since its inception...
     
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  19. michael59

    michael59 heads up-butts down Site Supporter ++ Platinum Bling

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    Well, what I was getting at is statute law has supplanted charter law.

    If I was to say that all law springs from the same well then you could assume that I was referring to common law which would be the Constitution or charter but statute law or piece and dignity law or it is called administrative law does not spring from the well that is eternal.

    So in effect the people/person/whatever have supplanted the original with their evolving creation of fiction that can be forever changed to suit their whims and there fore have no need of eternal law. And, when that society fails, which it will, then they in their short shortsightedness create another and discard it also while calling it progress.
     
  20. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    The funny thing is that virtually everyone alive at the time and since, practically fell all over themselves to voluntarily claim that legal status and place themselves and their children firmly under its jurisdiction.
    ...and that jurisdiction is just supposed to ignore all that and act as though none of it happened?

    Edited to add: its peoples own actions or lack thereof that did them in.
    A free People cannot operate from within a legal framework they are ignorant of, and expect to remain truly free for long.
     
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  21. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Name of and date of ratification of said Treaty please?
     
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  22. BarnacleBob

    BarnacleBob GIM Founding Member & Mod. Founding Member Site Mgr Site Supporter

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    Statute Law is modelled after the Roman Civil Law... i.e. commerce! The Roman civil law was a body of laws that basically & mostly regulated the institution(s) of slavery & servitude & the activities of servants, slaves & slave owners....
     
  23. michael59

    michael59 heads up-butts down Site Supporter ++ Platinum Bling

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    I know I have it but where it is at is the big question. It is either in 1.3k e-mails or on one of several hard drives. But I think it had to do with the current Constitution of Spain when the treaty of Spain/porno rico was signed. But I could be wrong.
     
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  24. Joe King

    Joe King Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Thanks for your response, but I was asking BB as he seemed to have the skinny on it. As far as I know, SS started with the SS Act of 1935 as enacted by Congress and signed into law by socialist FDR
    ...and that act that started it did not impose a legal duty requiring anyone to sign up for it. The People did so of their own volition as they saw benefit to themselves and their children in doing so.
     
  25. 917601

    917601 Mother Lode Found Mother Lode

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    Silly folks, the Constitution was written by believers. The Declaration of Independence clearly invokes Gods name, ( The Declaration states that “all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.)
    True, the Constitution does not invoke Gods name however the principles laid out are straight from the good book. If you have not noticed today, any belief in a Creator is ridiculed, attacked and immediately discarded. Those connected, can easily see the supernatural battle that is being waged...fear not. The Constitution will endure as the written word has, but when it is discarded, we will cease to receive all of Gods blessings and be turned over to all of mans evil desires...thank our Creator for a " second chance", don't blow it.
     
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  26. BarnacleBob

    BarnacleBob GIM Founding Member & Mod. Founding Member Site Mgr Site Supporter

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  27. Scorpio

    Scorpio Скорпион Founding Member Board Elder Site Mgr Site Supporter ++

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    Actually BB, you had made the statement that as civilizations moved away from religion, and went more atheistic, the civilizations collapsed. That there was a pattern to the civilizations.

    In full spirit of that, you have seen a mass degradation of society when it comes to morals, religion, and beliefs.

    So are we closer to the end or closer to the beginning of this particular civilization?
     
  28. Scorpio

    Scorpio Скорпион Founding Member Board Elder Site Mgr Site Supporter ++

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    As for the constitution,

    I get a kick out of people claiming this or that with it. Yep, it is a piece of paper. As for the rest of the hearsay and bs attached to it, one must always realize what it represents.

    It is more than a 'piece of paper', it is more than a group of rules, or the fallacial arguments that it guarantees servitude.

    It is a representation of freedom and liberty in its more pure sense, rather than the whored out versions we see today.

    I am not buying the bs argument that it is a corporate contract, yada yada yada. That fails mightily on the ideal, and the spirit of what it is. Most will understand that there needs to be a legal framework on creation. Most would also agree that the most nefarious portions of current structure occurred after the creation of this country. That is what I spoke to earlier. 200+ odd years of additions, clarifications, and manipulations later, we have what we have. Which is a far cry from the understanding of those dying during the revolutionary war.

    Yep, there is a legal arrangement to structure, most get that and understand it. The income tax followed later. The SI followed later, along with SSI, GS, AHA, Etc.

    The constitution represents a helluva lot more than a 'goddamn piece of paper'.
     
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  29. Mujahideen

    Mujahideen Black Member Midas Member

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    Lets not gloss over the fact that the constitution permitted people to be born into a lifetime of slavery, while at the same time claiming all men had inalienable rights.

    In the south, about a 4th to almost half the people depending upon what state you look at had no rights at the time of ratification of the constitution.

    I would say it's a piece of paper.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
  30. Alton

    Alton Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    I gotta agree with Muj.

    That's all I can say. Anything else and I'll run off into an extended diatribe on the evil that is government. I'm feeling good today and I have no desire to have my groove blown.

    On that note let me leave you with this thought...

    FUCK Government.
     
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  31. BarnacleBob

    BarnacleBob GIM Founding Member & Mod. Founding Member Site Mgr Site Supporter

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    Yes, this is true, in the past religion & language was the universal unifying force that creates civilizations.... Trade, commerce, services, treaties & large scale investment of capital among select groups of people creates sociopolitical & socioeconomic organization called civilizations.

    Western civilization has been capable of reorganizing & expanding at least three previous times, we are currently in the closing period of the fourth expansion marked by & known as the "Age of Conflict" (imperialist wars), a period when large investment no longer expands resulting in declining standards of living.

    Chapter One:

    https://archive.org/stream/TragedyAndHope/TH_djvu.txt

    When large scale investment & expansion begin to decline & diminish the societies not understanding their observations have turned to supersticions, religions & strong .gov hoping to arrest the systemic slump. As the restrictions on investment grow greater & greater as the previous expansion declines the poor get poorer & the rich get poorer. This is marked by moral degradation, corruption & loss of confidence in institutions & polity....

    The apex of the current expansion occurred when the sun never set on the British Empire. The empire began liquidating around 1899 creating the Age of Conflict within the civilization (WWI & WWII). The result was the United States becoming the universal empire for western civilization. This historically marks the beginning of the end of western civilization as we know it. In 5000 yrs. not one civilization has possessed the ability to functionally reorganize after a universal empire appears... Once universal empire appears in the evolution of civilization that civilization is doomed to the dust bin of history... its happened over & over & over!

    The creation of the EU is but a symptom of the end of the previous expansion.... Same can be said of the Western intrusions into MENA.... Both are examples of attempts to revive the previous expansion utilizing large scale investment & capital.... In the case of the EU its a half hearted attempt at reorganization to resume capital investment in Europe, while the imperial wars being waged upon Islamic civilization are attempts to reorganize Muslim society & polity to recognize & follow the "rule of law" (commercial contracts) which would create new large scale investment opportunities. Hence the resumption of large scales capital investment expansion.... or as HT would say "inflation greater than previous inflation."

    If there is one remaining hope in the last 5000 years of saving western civilization it may lay in the parchment of organized social ideas & political concepts we know as the constitution.... if not, western civilization will fall like the USSR, the Ottomans, Incas, Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Persian, Babylonian & Akkan empires, et al that came before it. Simply stated expansion arrests decay! Reorganization supports expansion...
     
  32. BarnacleBob

    BarnacleBob GIM Founding Member & Mod. Founding Member Site Mgr Site Supporter

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    @ Muj.... Who wrote, supported, enacted the constitution & why.... A group & CLASS of Anglo-Saxon highly educated Aristocrats seeking to EXPAND North America via attracting large scale capital investment to the [e]states... America was built upon the slavery, servitude & labor of both poor whites & peoples of color. Yes, there were white European slaves & indentured servants also in America.....
     
  33. michael59

    michael59 heads up-butts down Site Supporter ++ Platinum Bling

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    No. When the states beat out the king of spain or...was it the queen. I think it was the queen who signed the thing BUT anywhoo, the spanish american war was about land. yes they did some things and we did some things but the treaty was about land. The people in the land stayed and were still loyal Spanish subjects who paid to their king a part of their due. This corporate country did not get the people but you can say that after Spain relinquished its territories in question the first anchor babies were born.

    It is this relationship between subject and king which by treaty involved a corporate fiction that brought forth social security and the income tax. If Spain had had enough gold to keep in the war and had came to the table as a equal then things would be different, but no spain gave away its land not its people. Because the people still were subjects to Spain their customs had to be observed. NOW..."Give unto Cesar what is DUE" comes into play.

    and, hence socialism.
     
  34. BarnacleBob

    BarnacleBob GIM Founding Member & Mod. Founding Member Site Mgr Site Supporter

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    Remember the implosion of the USSR in 1991. East Germany and a number of various satellite states of the USSR were absorbed into western civilization... A temporary boom for the west was created as investment raced into the new NATO & trade member states.... this represents the power of an expansion, once the demand was filled the expansion terminated, delevering & deflation returned.

    Expansion arrests decay... it doesnt matter which economic or monetary system is employed, capitalism, fiat, gold or debt, in the absence of expansion they're all deflationary.

    While we can look back negatively to 1933, it is best to also consider that western civilization was imploding due to the continued liquidation of the British Empire. Capital around the world was being devalued & destroyed, large investment & developement projects were terminated or placed on hold... the velocity of trade between the nations was highly decimated & diminished.... The western capitalistic system post WWII was once again failing in the late fifities & sixties, the 1971 debt backed by debt fiat credit system was installed to arrest capital depreciation, deflation, create demand & stimulate investment. The big ? today is where to, & how to save the civilization AGAIN!

    Communism & direct political & economic controls couldnt save the USSR & its Orthodox civilization when it failed to expand.... Same thing happened to Japan when it failed to expand. Rome collapsed after it conquered the known civilized world, it too collapsed for failure to expand!

    Where can the west legitimately expand into with large capital investment? Looks to me like this is a rerun of Classical Romes problem, no where to further expand into.

    Civilizations are like fruits, when their green they're growing, when their ripe they're rotting! The fruit known as civilization rots from the inside to the outside.
     
  35. michael59

    michael59 heads up-butts down Site Supporter ++ Platinum Bling

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    K there BB U need to splain this
     
  36. BarnacleBob

    BarnacleBob GIM Founding Member & Mod. Founding Member Site Mgr Site Supporter

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    If you grow 5 acres of wheat & I grow 5 acres of corn and you trade 2.5 acres of your wheat for 2.5 acres of my corn to feed, nourish & sustain ourselves did we create a financial profit? The answer is no.... Was there a middle man in our transaction? No. We retained the fruits of our labor.

    The so called skim or scheme comes into play under the illusion & disguise of "supply & demand." This game of supply & demand requires 1. a price system for goods & services, 2. money & 3. a price for money.

    1. The price system places us in competition with each other as we now are not seeking a simple trade, we are seeking to sell our excess 2.5 acres of production for the largest amount of money.

    2. What is money? Essentially money regardless of its form & substance is CREDIT... it is a CLAIM on goods & services that may or may not exist in the present or in the future. For instance I sell my 2.5 acres of production for one gold coin of a certain fineness & weight and tuck it away as savings. Next season a drought & famine occurs resulting in no excess production. The farmers loss of production means he must hoard his crop to feed his family. He wont accept the gold coin as a tender payment for any of his crop for if he did he & his family may face future starvation. In this illustration did the money failith? No, the gold coin remains a gold coin, the underlying CREDIT represented as purchasing power in the price system by the gold coin failed to entice the producer to trade a portion of his production for the gold coin.

    3. The price of money which is CREDIT is expressed as an interest rate. Credit flotations are regulated via the price of money relative to available goods & services. Both the price of money & money become moot when the producers wont accept the trade of money for goods & services... they both become worth-less or worthless for transactions. The Farmer in #2 may accept the gold coin but he will heavily discount it. Remember the gold coin was originally traded for 2.5 acres of production, but now that a famine has swept the land & your crops have failed, the gold coin will now only purchase .25 acres of production. The coin that last year represented 2.5 acres of production has lost 90% of its purchasing power (credit deflation) due to the shortage of available production.

    Next lets look at how economic & monetary systems called economies actually operate.

    Caesar taxes the farmers one gold coin per year, not just any gold coin but a special imperial specie struck at the imperial mint guaranteed to be of a certain fineness & weight. How & where does the farmer acquire this special coin to pay his taxes to Caesar? He transports & sells 2.5 acres of his production to Caesars Imperial grainery where he receives one special Imperial gold coin for his production. Next he returns the gold coin to Caesars treasury department to pay his taxes... Caesars special "legal tender" gold coin is returned but now Caesar has added 2.5 acres of grain at almost zero cost to himself. This simple example is how all tax systems operate & the reason that legal tender laws must be established & enforced to create an expanding economic monetary system of CREDIT, which are basically Ponzi schemes.

    Why are they Ponzis? Because they ALL rely on inflation greater than previous inflation which like all Ponzis require a steady flow of new participants into the scheme... if we replace investor with the words citizens, residents & immigrants, etc. we get the same results... A Ponzi must expand forever or it will collapse! There is a long list of empires & civilizations that have collapsed for failure to expand... and its always related to & correlated to capital investment & credit failure.

    Why did Rome debase their coinage? Their credit system failed to inflate (expand) production... in the absence of increased production velocity of circulation declined & they were forced to debase the monetary standard of fineness & weight to receive the same amount of goods & services. Its basically fraud, deception & theft employing debased money to represent equal values of goods & services.

    Like all of them, Romes elite combined with the administration & maintenance costs of empire sucked the producers dry, the producers terminated producing any excess production.... resulting in credit deflation. The credit claims (money) on future production dissappeared when excess production terminated.
     
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  37. michael59

    michael59 heads up-butts down Site Supporter ++ Platinum Bling

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    Thank you
     
  38. michael59

    michael59 heads up-butts down Site Supporter ++ Platinum Bling

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    here is the treaty of paris, in it you should pay attention to how the soldiers are dealt with, the armaments and such. You will notice that they are the property of the crown. You also should notice that the people are dealt with differently in that they are given a choice. Also there are some interesting words of "Who the courts belong to." Yeah I had to think about them words myself.

    Treaty of Peace Between the United States and Spain; December 10, 1898

    The United States of America and Her Majesty the Queen Regent of Spain, in the name of her august son Don Alfonso XIII, desiring to end the state of war now existing between the two countries, have for that purpose appointed as plenipotentiaries:

    The President of the United States, William R. Day, Cushman K. Davis, William P. Frye, George Gray, and Whitelaw Reid, citizens of the United States;

    And Her Majesty the Queen Regent of Spain,

    Don Eugenio Montero Rios, president of the senate, Don Buenaventura de Abarzuza, senator of the Kingdom and ex-minister of the Crown; Don Jose de Garnica, deputy of the Cortes and associate justice of the supreme court; Don Wenceslao Ramirez de Villa-Urrutia, envoy extraordinary and minister plenipotentiary at Brussels, and Don Rafael Cerero, general of division;

    Who, having assembled in Paris, and having exchanged their full powers, which were found to be in due and proper form, have, after discussion of the matters before them, agreed upon the following articles:

    Article I. Spain relinquishes all claim of sovereignty over and title to Cuba.And as the island is, upon its evacuation by Spain, to be occupied by the United States, the United States will, so long as such occupation shall last, assume and discharge the obligations that may under international law result from the fact of its occupation, for the protection of life and property.

    Article II. Spain cedes to the United States the island of Porto Rico and other islands now under Spanish sovereignty in the West Indies, and the island of Guam in the Marianas or Ladrones.

    Article III. Spain cedes to the United States the archipelago known as the Philippine Islands, and comprehending the islands lying within the following line:

    A line running from west to east along or near the twentieth parallel of north latitude, and through the middle of the navigable channel of Bachi, from the one hundred and eighteenth (118th) to the one hundred and twenty-seventh (127th) degree meridian of longitude east of Greenwich, thence along the one hundred and twenty seventh (127th) degree meridian of longitude east of Greenwich to the parallel of four degrees and forty five minutes (4 [degree symbol] 45']) north latitude, thence along the parallel of four degrees and forty five minutes (4 [degree symbol] 45') north latitude to its intersection with the meridian of longitude one hundred and nineteen degrees and thirty five minutes (119 [degree symbol] 35') east of Greenwich, thence along the meridian of longitude one hundred and nineteen degrees and thirty five minutes (119 [degree symbol] 35') east of Greenwich to the parallel of latitude seven degrees and forty minutes (7 [degree symbol] 40') north, thence along the parallel of latitude of seven degrees and forty minutes (7 [degree symbol] 40') north to its intersection with the one hundred and sixteenth (116th) degree meridian of longitude east of Greenwich, thence by a direct line to the intersection of the tenth (10th) degree parallel of north latitude with the one hundred and eighteenth (118th) degree meridian of longitude east of Greenwich, and thence along the one hundred and eighteenth (118th) degree meridian of longitude east of Greenwich to the point of beginning.The United States will pay to Spain the sum of twenty million dollars ($20,000,000) within three months after the exchange of the ratifications of the present treaty.

    Article IV. The United States will, for the term of ten years from the date of the exchange of the ratifications of the present treaty, admit Spanish ships and merchandise to the ports of the Philippine Islands on the same terms as ships and merchandise of the United States.

    Article V. The United States will, upon the signature of the present treaty, send back to Spain, at its own cost, the Spanish soldiers taken as prisoners of war on the capture of Manila by the American forces. The arms of the soldiers in question shall be restored to them.

    Spain will, upon the exchange of the ratifications of the present treaty, proceed to evacuate the Philippines, as well as the island of Guam, on terms similar to those agreed upon by the Commissioners appointed to arrange for the evacuation of Porto Rico and other islands in the West Indies, under the Protocol of August 12, 1898, which is to continue in force till its provisions are completely executed.

    The time within which the evacuation of the Philippine Islands and Guam shall be completed shall be fixed by the two Governments. Stands of colors, uncaptured war vessels, small arms, guns of all calibres, with their carriages and accessories, powder, ammunition, livestock, and materials and supplies of all kinds, belonging to the land and naval forces of Spain in the Philippines and Guam, remain the property of Spain. Pieces of heavy ordnance, exclusive of field artillery, in the fortifications and coast defences, shall remain in their emplacements for the term of six months, to be reckoned from the exchange of ratifications of the treaty; and the United States may, in the meantime, purchase such material from Spain, if a satisfactory agreement between the two Governments on the subject shall be reached.

    Article VI. Spain will, upon the signature of the present treaty, release all prisoners of war, and all persons detained or imprisoned for political offences, in connection with the insurrections in Cuba and the Philippines and the war with the United States.

    Reciprocally, the United States will release all persons made prisoners of war by the American forces, and will undertake to obtain the release of all Spanish prisoners in the hands of the insurgents in Cuba and the Philippines.

    The Government of the United States will at its own cost return to Spain and the Government of Spain will at its own cost return to the United States, Cuba, Porto Rico, and the Philippines, according to the situation of their respective homes, prisoners released or caused to be released by them, respectively, under this article.

    Article VII. The United States and Spain mutually relinquish all claims for indemnity, national and individual, of every kind, of either Government, or of its citizens or subjects, against the other Government, that may have arisen since the beginning of the late insurrection in Cuba and prior to the exchange of ratifications of the present treaty, including all claims for indemnity for the cost of the war.

    The United States will adjudicate and settle the claims of its citizens against Spain relinquished in this article.

    Article VIII. In conformity with the provisions of Articles I, II, and III of this treaty, Spain relinquishes in Cuba, and cedes in Porto Rico and other islands in the West Indies, in the island of Guam, and in the Philippine Archipelago, all the buildings, wharves, barracks, forts, structures, public highways and other immovable property which, in conformity with law, belong to the public domain, and as such belong to the Crown of Spain.

    And it is hereby declared that the relinquishment or cession, as the case may be, to which the preceding paragraph refers, can not in any respect impair the property or rights which by law belong to the peaceful possession of property of all kinds, of provinces, municipalities, public or private establishments, ecclesiastical or civic bodies, or any other associations having legal capacity to acquire and possess property in the aforesaid territories renounced or ceded, or of private individuals, of whatsoever nationality such individuals may be.

    The aforesaid relinquishment or cession, as the case may be, includes all documents exclusively referring to the sovereignty relinquished or ceded that may exist in the archives of the Peninsula. Where any document in such archives only in part relates to said sovereignty, a copy of such part will be furnished whenever it shall be requested. Like rules shall be reciprocally observed in favor of Spain in respect of documents in the archives of the islands above referred to.

    In the aforesaid relinquishment or cession, as the case may be, are also included such rights as the Crown of Spain and its authorities possess in respect of the official archives and records, executive as well as judicial, in the islands above referred to, which relate to said islands or the rights and property of their inhabitants. Such archives and records shall be carefully preserved, and private persons shall without distinction have the right to require, in accordance with law, authenticated copies of the contracts, wills and other instruments forming part of notorial protocols or files, or which may be contained in the executive or judicial archives, be the latter in Spain or in the islands aforesaid.

    Article IX. Spanish subjects, natives of the Peninsula, residing in the territory over which Spain by the present treaty relinquishes or cedes her sovereignty, may remain in such territory or may remove therefrom, retaining in either event all their rights of property, including the right to sell or dispose of such property or of its proceeds; and they shall also have the right to carry on their industry, commerce and professions, being subject in respect thereof to such laws as are applicable to other foreigners. In case they remain in the territory they may preserve their allegiance to the Crown of Spain by making, before a court of record, within a year from the date of the exchange of ratifications of this treaty, a declaration of their decision to preserve such allegiance; in default of which declaration they shall be held to have renounced it and to have adopted the nationality of the territory in which they may reside.

    The civil rights and political status of the native inhabitants of the territories hereby ceded to the United States shall be determined by the Congress.

    Article X. The inhabitants of the territories over which Spain relinquishes or cedes her sovereignty shall be secured in the free exercise of their religion.

    Article XI. The Spaniards residing in the territories over which Spain by this treaty cedes or relinquishes her sovereignty shall be subject in matters civil as well as criminal to the jurisdiction of the courts of the country wherein they reside, pursuant to the ordinary laws governing the same; and they shall have the right to appear before such courts, and to pursue the same course as citizens of the country to which the courts belong.

    Article XII. Judicial proceedings pending at the time of the exchange of ratifications of this treaty in the territories over which Spain relinquishes or cedes her sovereignty shall be determined according to the following rules:

    1. Judgments rendered either in civil suits between private individuals, or in criminal matters, before the date mentioned, and with respect to which there is no recourse or right of review under the Spanish law, shall be deemed to be final, and shall be executed in due form by competent authority in the territory within which such judgments should be carried out.
    2. Civil suits between private individuals which may on the date mentioned be undetermined shall be prosecuted to judgment before the court in which they may then be pending or in the court that may be substituted therefor.
    3. Criminal actions pending on the date mentioned before the Supreme Court of Spain against citizens of the territory which by this treaty ceases to be Spanish shall continue under its jurisdiction until final judgment; but, such judgment having been rendered, the execution thereof shall be committed to the competent authority of the place in which the case arose.
    Article XIII. The rights of property secured by copyrights and patents acquired by Spaniards in the Island of Cuba and in Porto Rico, the Philippines and other ceded territories, at the time of the exchange of the ratifications of this treaty, shall continue to be respected. Spanish scientific, literary and artistic works, not subversive of public order in the territories in question, shall continue to be admitted free of duty into such territories, for the period of ten years, to be reckoned from the date of the exchange of the ratifications of this treaty.

    Article XIV. Spain will have the power to establish consular officers in the ports and places of the territories, the sovereignty over which has been either relinquished or ceded by the present treaty.

    Article XV. The Government of each country will, for the term of ten years, accord to the merchant vessels of the other country the same treatment in respect of all port charges, including entrance and clearance dues, light dues, and tonnage duties, as it accords to its own merchant vessels, not engaged in the coastwise trade.

    Article XVI. It is understood that any obligations assumed in this treaty by the United States with respect to Cuba are limited to the time of its occupancy thereof; but it will upon termination of such occupancy, advise any Government established in the island to assume the same obligations.

    Article XVII. The present treaty shall be ratified by the President of the United States, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate thereof, and by Her Majesty the Queen Regent of Spain; and the ratifications shall be exchanged at Washington within six months from the date hereof, or earlier if possible.

    In faith whereof, we, the respective Plenipotentiaries, have signed this treaty and have hereunto affixed our seals.

    Done in duplicate at Paris, the tenth day of December, in the year of Our Lord one thousand eight hundred and ninety-eight.

    [Seal] William R. Day
    [Seal] Cushman K. Davis
    [Seal] William P. Frye
    [Seal] Geo. Gray[Seal] Whitelaw Reid
    [Seal] Eugenio Montero Rios
    [Seal] B. de Abarzuza
    [Seal] J. de Garnica
    [Seal] W. R. de Villa Urrutia
    [Seal] Rafael Cerero
     
  39. michael59

    michael59 heads up-butts down Site Supporter ++ Platinum Bling

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    And, this one right out of the spanish constitution of the time:

    Art. 3. all Spanish is obliged to defend the country with weapons, when it is called by the law, and to contribute, in proportion of their assets, for the expenses of the State, province and municipality. No one is required to pay contribution which is not voted by the courts or by legally authorized corporations to enforce them.

    So you see Joe King it is by treaty this country was infested with the income tax and social security bullpoopie stuff. I know it might seem a stretch but if you think about it is not this how it was done here even though it goes contrary to that document? So this is why the main office of the IRS is headquartered in the territory of Puto-Rico-Swavey.

    edit: Now I have to finish translating the rest of the Spanish constitution.
    edit#2: The words "...that document..." is in reference to united states of America.
     
  40. BarnacleBob

    BarnacleBob GIM Founding Member & Mod. Founding Member Site Mgr Site Supporter

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    Constitution? What Constitution?

     
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