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  1. Lt Dan

    Lt Dan Gold Pirate Gold Chaser

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    When I first got into bees, I considered using cedar instead of pine which is what commercial hives are made of. Pine is available and not very expensive compared to cedar but pine does not hold up under the weather as good. I also considered locust - actually made one super out of it, but not again, it's to heavy and not easy to work with. Making hive supers with pine only costs slightly less than I can buy them all cut out and ready to put together and paint. I have seen cypress hives at a fairly high price, but would have to special order that lumber. One other thing I've noticed about cedar here is that is is hard to find good clear boards that are free of dry knots. That would not work well for bee boxes.

    That brings me to why I decided on using cherry. I have some growing on the place large enough to saw into lumber. If not on my place it grows in the area. It is reasonable easy to work with, is not the best firewood, so when I do order firewood logs and some is cherry, I don't mind pulling it aside for saw logs. Cherry, if up off the ground and painted withstands weather much better than pine and the bees do not care. So, I do buy cedar to make bottom boards, as it will handle the moisture sitting on the cement blocks, it might also resists some pests like moths that might get into the hives. For the hive brood boxes and supers, I'll be using cherry for all that I make myself.
     
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  2. Alton

    Alton Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Cedar, white oak, ipe (ee-pay) and cypress are all known to resist moisture. Cedar, cypress and white oak are relatively easy to work. Ipe is DENSE and hard as well as resistant to moisture and bugs. This makes it very durable.

    Mahogany from Africa and South America are both quite moisture and bug resistant. Philippine mahogany is not a real mahogany but a type of Asian wood known as shorea. It does, however, have some of the look and many of the properties of Af/SA mahoganies.

    Basswood used to be popular for hives because it's fairly durable, stable and quite light in weight. It has become a popular wood for carving because it's easy to carve and it's stability is great for holding fine detail. I'm uncertain as to how it handles contact with moisture but remains stable in humid environments. I'm sure a coat of paint on the bottom would keep it dry.
     
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  3. Lt Dan

    Lt Dan Gold Pirate Gold Chaser

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    Thanks Alton for all the info on wood. I'm in south central Ohio and we do have quite a good selection of locally grown trees. However, it takes a life time to grow most of them, something I do not have left being soon to be 70 years of age. That ipe wood would still probably be sound 20+ years from now, however, sounds kind of heavy for a hive super and possibly a bit hard to cut finger joints and hand holds in. That is the problem I ran into with the locust wood, very dense, hard to work but does last many years in weather such as we have here.

    I have some very young white oak growing that I planted and never expect to harvest in my lifetime. Even my son will probably not live to see those trees mature. The black walnut we planted maybe he will see mature. We have a few of those that will be mature for me if I life another 20 years, and a few that could be cut now. However, I've only a few acres of wood land on my place, most is farm land that I cash rent to a local farmer. Besides the cherry, I have mostly hackberry, related to elm, which as you may know, does not withstand exposer to weather all that well. Not sure if it would even out last pine. Pine I have to buy at a lumber yard unless I could find someone to sell or trade me some sawmill work for a few logs. Hard to find much cedar either, it grows plentiful here, but hard to find it grown large enough for saw logs. So, for that, I have to go to a lumber yard. Then for medium hive supers, I need at least 1x8 boards, kinda pricey when you figure I'm not keeping bees to sell honey, just want enough for family use and to pollinate fruit and garden flowers.

    Basswood is alright for some things, but a lot like pine when it comes to weather. I have none of that on my land and only occasionally will the logger that brings my firewood logs slip me a few of those in the load. What I usually get with those loads of logs is the same as they haul in to the paper mill, stuff they can't sell to regular sawmills, so I'm not getting high quality logs and many are smaller, crookeder, and knottier than would be very useful as lumber. I saw it out anyway and just burn up the scraps in the outdoor wood boiler. So, I don't mind the scrap pile, it heats the home in the winter. Actually, it heats two homes in the winter.
     
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  4. stonedywankanobe

    stonedywankanobe Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Nice info fellas. Lt we went through a spell for several years here where the honey bee was somewhat of a rare sight.
    Hearing you talk of bee boxes makes me want one myself. So is it just a process of building the box and the bee's will come or how does getting it going work sir?
     
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  5. Alton

    Alton Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Sounds like pretty much the same selection of trees we have locally, which is pretty much the same as in Van Wert, Sydney even down to Dayton. Your cherry should be quite similar to ours which, when coated (paint, polyurethane) should stand up well to the weather. What dimensions are you looking at for your super?
     
  6. andial

    andial Sir Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    That was a garage I did with me son back when silver was 40 bucks an ounce, I remember because I was saying to myself " get the feck out of this business and start selling wide brim hats to rich silver stackers". That plan went to crap so cleaning and sealing the floor , the cars bring in salt and rubber/ tar.
     
  7. Lt Dan

    Lt Dan Gold Pirate Gold Chaser

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    I plan on using almost all 8 frame medium supers - approximate measurements 14" x 20" by 6 & 5/8" deep. If I saw the lumber I would go with 5/4 by 7" wide in whatever length I can get. About 4' long is the shortest I can easily handle in my mill, but longer is better. Then trim and plane down to 3/4" by the above width I need. I could saw the boards to 1" and just plan one side, that would also work. Trying to saw to 3/4 and not planing would probably not work so well, as a bandsaw mill tends to drift sometimes and you end up with thick and thin lumber. Also, if the the logs are not seasoned out there will be shrinkage - so better to cut it thicker and wider than the needed finished dimension.
     
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  8. Lt Dan

    Lt Dan Gold Pirate Gold Chaser

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    Well, that might work, but not so common. If you want to research it there is much information out there in the form of web pages of pdf books, youtube videos, more than you'd ever have time to read or watch.

    The easy way for a beginner is to buy a hive of bees off someone who sells what is called a nuc. A nuc, short for nucleus, is a full working hive, or colony of bees, that can be moved to your location and then just let the bees grow the colony by adding supers.

    Next would be to get the hive and equipment and then buy a package of bees including a queen to install in the hive.

    Then, there is finding and capturing a swarm, for a beginner, that might be the most difficult, but there are good instructions in both youtube and pdf/htm files online to guide a person through that.

    I went the easy way and bought the nuc. I'm still trying to capture a swarm, but the swarming season is about over as the bees are heading into the fall mode now here in Ohio.

    We took off about 5 quarts of honey this summer, and I plan to pull the top super late Sept. or early Oct, or I may just leave it over winter for the bees, but most guys would take it and sell it. I do not plan to sell any, so if we don't need it, we might let the bees keep it.
     
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  9. Lt Dan

    Lt Dan Gold Pirate Gold Chaser

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    Kind of enjoyed this video - hint, watch with or without sound, they just play music.

     
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  10. ttazzman

    ttazzman Midas Member Midas Member Site Supporter

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    Stoney.......been thinking of trying a hive or two myself.....be aware that some animals eat the Bee's themselves such as Skunks....they will go rattle the hive and eat the bees as they emerge...
     
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  11. andial

    andial Sir Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    That contraption for applying thin set to the tile was fantastic!
     
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  12. Lt Dan

    Lt Dan Gold Pirate Gold Chaser

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    We set our hive up off the ground on two high cement blocks, That's 16" off the ground to keep it away from skunks, Also need to block off the entrance to just a small hole in the winter to keep mice out. If there were bears in the area, other measures would need to be used as they will completely destroy a bee hive and steal the honey. I've heard raccoons might also be a bother, but we live trap them to prevent garden raiding and relocate them to an area were buzzards frequent.
     
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  13. Lt Dan

    Lt Dan Gold Pirate Gold Chaser

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    Thought you would like that, watched it myself several times.
     
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  14. stonedywankanobe

    stonedywankanobe Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    20160919_101510.jpg

    Cut the overhang back and got joisted out this morning. We were a man down as one old boy had a plea hearing today. So it was just three musketeers and hot as heck down here.

    20160919_152315.jpg

    We managed 2 hips 2 commons and a ridge after finishing demo and joist. Should be 4 deep tomorrow and knock a dent in this thing.

    Single hips were the builders call, gotta save that money.
     
  15. andial

    andial Sir Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    very nice how you set those stages up to do the rafter work.
     
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  16. stonedywankanobe

    stonedywankanobe Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    20161018_152234.jpg
    Did some devine work last week, preacher says we shall be rewarded with heavenly treasures.
    Said maybe so sir can we get the final check now please?
     
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  17. andial

    andial Sir Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    You could say How about just pay what you owe me and I'll buy my own blessings.

    Similar to what I say to customers who offer me food but are chizzlers otherwise.
    "How about paying me what you owe and I'll buy my own lunches".
     
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  18. stonedywankanobe

    stonedywankanobe Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Good word, I work with a few and actually my be one myself every once upon a tyme.
     
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  19. ttazzman

    ttazzman Midas Member Midas Member Site Supporter

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    Stoney one.......can i give you some tips on what your building there without offending you? done a lot of those over the years...might save you some major headaches...(the church framing)
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2016
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  20. andial

    andial Sir Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    IMG_0367.JPG matching in the shingles today, ttasz i tried offering Will advise once, ............. .............once.
     
  21. andial

    andial Sir Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    IMG_0369.JPG From this angle you can't even tell.
     
  22. nickndfl

    nickndfl Midas Member Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    We close on November 14th. Looking forward to the new place. Shown is the granite.
    14724542_10209018159989967_1777151666745202223_n.jpg
     
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  23. ttazzman

    ttazzman Midas Member Midas Member Site Supporter

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    looks good nick.........i know its the angle but sure looks like that countertop runs right into the pantry door LOL
     
  24. nickndfl

    nickndfl Midas Member Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    It's the angle. There is 6 or 8 feet of space there to the door.
     
  25. ttazzman

    ttazzman Midas Member Midas Member Site Supporter

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    sometimes you gotta make your own countertops
     

    Attached Files:

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  26. smooth

    smooth Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Well, I for one am curious. Let fly Tazz
     
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  27. ttazzman

    ttazzman Midas Member Midas Member Site Supporter

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    that building appears to be a 70' wide sanctuary

    depending on the metal building specs it will be designed for a deflection of L/180-L/360 at 70' wide this means under full load the clear span frame will sag up to 4.5" in the center and actually rise in a wind storm depending on what L/??? it was designed for

    the wood framed walls appear to be framed tight to the roof structure ....it is standard practice in a situation like this to use a connection to the structure above that allows for the movement up and down of the steel structure....in a metal stud building its typically called a "slip track" ......also when the wall gets sheet rocked the vertical movement of the roof needs to be allowed for or the sheetrock will crush or crack..

    very simple elementary explanation hope it is helpful

    i have done at least 20 of these type buildings...and YES i have had both the problem and the solution.....in practice any building designed for L/360 or above should not require a slip track

    i would also state that i can not see everything needed in the picture but am going off of what little i can see .....if its not right it isnt the framers fault its the engineers fault but the framer will get the blame
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2016
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  28. stonedywankanobe

    stonedywankanobe Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    That's right Dialbro can't tell me nothing guys like us put the fucking cus in custom.

    Dial I thanked your post sight unseen got a bad connection here and only 1 eighth of those pics loaded. Mebe i remove those later when I get a good look sir?

    Constructive criticism is both ironical and welcome Sir Taz.

    Been busy replacing my living room floor today and didn't intend to leave you hanging.
     
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  29. stonedywankanobe

    stonedywankanobe Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Good stuff Mr. T.
    Do you reckon the end wall with the vertical columns would move that much or is this more of a clear span issue?
    I will say the building was slapped together by some goons lots of lose nuts on flange braces and even some on the end plates that I was close to when boomed up.
    70 feet yep and it only had 3 cable braces, seemed too few to me.
     
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  30. ttazzman

    ttazzman Midas Member Midas Member Site Supporter

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    end wall is "post and beam" with the wall panels should not move at all...

    the clear span rigid frame is what will move for sure (they are designed to move) the same deflection ratios will apply to the purlins themselves also within their spans so sometimes you get the main frame deflecting ..then the purlin deflecting itself more....lot depends on the design i have seen frames designed for L/360 but the purlins were L/180 so you can imagine the issues

    roof X braceing isnt extremely important if it has a screw down roof...if it has a standing seam roof it is VERY important

    what most "amateurs" leave out on metal buildings is the flange braces on the rigid frames roof and wall (really sucks and looks crappy to sheet rock around wall flange braces)

    normally loose bolts are a rejection (over torqued can be worse) ...but in the scheme of things endplate bolts are more critical than flange brace bolts
     
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  31. andial

    andial Sir Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    That's what he called me and my son when I offered a constructive opinion Ttazz, watch out he's gunning for you right now, you just don't know it yet sir.
     
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  32. andial

    andial Sir Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    Will I made a video of that gay clankaty clank my hammer makes in the metal loop (is why I tape it up) but video won't post.
     
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  33. ttazzman

    ttazzman Midas Member Midas Member Site Supporter

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    been gunned for before......im pretty thick skinned ....tossing out experience and information and certainly i dont get offended if people dont consider it ...everyone on the internet is a expert me included so everything should be scrutinized before implementation....so long as things dont get personal (main thing is dont call me Hillary or similar :) )
     
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  34. stonedywankanobe

    stonedywankanobe Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Dial is just messin, he knows me better err than that. Opinions, experience, and knowledge are all welcome here sir.
    Upon review the metal structure is 60 foot wide and 80 the long way. The furthest wall connected to red iron on the ceiling is 22 feet from the end wall. It extends the entire 60 feet horizontally as a 10 foot base wall and is connected to the red iron. On top of the 14 inch I joist we decked with 3/4 advantek wall to wall and also there is a stairway running horizontal for access.
    I guess what I'm asking is do you think those things combined give it enough sheer support at the wall 20 feet out to eliminate some of the deflection that happens on a metal structure?

    edit.
    The roof is standing seam also.
     
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  35. andial

    andial Sir Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    IMG_0372.JPG Sovereign in da house! Removed the base board heat cover so i can sheet rock from floor to new window height without a seam and what do i find ? Gold! Woooooot!
     
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  36. stonedywankanobe

    stonedywankanobe Gold Member Gold Chaser

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    Pic won't load, better not be shittin me or will pull the thanks.
     
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  37. the_shootist

    the_shootist I self identify as a black '69 Camaro Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    I just see a hole in the wall. What am I missing?
     
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  38. ttazzman

    ttazzman Midas Member Midas Member Site Supporter

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    so we don't get confused will limit discussion to deflection only
    (shear walls, ss roof etc, are Diaphragm bracing)

    #1 the building will deflect as designed unless your FULLY supporting the loads imposed...if you partially support them they will support up to the point of failure and then break your support structure and revert to how they were designed

    #2 it is critical to understand what deflection the building was designed for. it will be stated in a number like this L/???? with the minimum ???? of 180(most deflection)...to 360 (least deflection) ....it is normally stated for the whole structure but sometimes it will be different for the main structure and the roof purlins themselves

    for example L/180 .......can be simplified to 1" of vertical deflection in 180" horizontal length of the member at max load

    using that your 60' span building would be allowed to deflect up to 4" during max load IF designed for l/180.....obviously L/360 would be half that deflection (60'x12"=720/180=4")

    additionally the purlins themselves at 22' are allowed to deflect another 1.5" at max load if designed for L/180

    L/180 is a WORST case scenario and is considered a industry minimum......L/360 is considered correct for a sheet rock ceiling

    your end-wall will not deflect at all in normal circumstances and the framing you added to it does nothing but help

    you do have several other issues that could help or hurt depending .....if your wall is very stiff something will give but if it is flexible it can bow out like a sail to accommodate the roof movement.....deflection is normally worst at midspans on steel ...referring back to #1 your diagonal wall under the purlins will probably hold the roof load.....your worst condition is where the diagonal wall meets the horizontal front wall
     
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  39. Lt Dan

    Lt Dan Gold Pirate Gold Chaser

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    I'd post a picture of the little sawmill shack I built to protect the bandmill itself from the weather, but it just ain't all that pretty, but it is functional and does what it has to do.
     
  40. andial

    andial Sir Midas Member Site Supporter ++

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    IMG_0373.JPG
    Left them in the wall (five) will get them from the outside at a later date. The pictures loaded right?
     
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