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After ‘Stealing’ $16M, This Teen Hacker Seems Intent on Testing ‘Code Is Law’ in the Courts

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After ‘Stealing’ $16M, This Teen Hacker Seems Intent on Testing ‘Code Is Law’ in the Courts​

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Andrew Thurman
Fri, October 22, 2021, 4:40 PM


Some $16 million in cryptocurrency was pilfered in an exploit of a decentralized finance (DeFi) protocol last week, and the victims believe they know exactly who did it.
Despite threats from the team, however, the alleged attacker – a Canadian teenaged graduate student – is refusing to return the funds, potentially setting the stage for a groundbreaking legal confrontation.
On one side of the conflict is a child math prodigy and an outspoken champion of DeFi’s self-regulating “code is law” ethos. On the other, a pair of DeFi developers and their advisers who felt forced to make an unprecedented series of troubling ethical choices on behalf of a DAO community.

At stake in the fight are a number of thorny issues that have so far been successfully obscured by DeFi’s explosive growth: What is the role of law enforcement in an unregulated $220 billion sector? When, if at all, should the gendarmes be summoned? And, most importantly, is the notion of “code is law” sufficient to grapple with all of DeFi’s ethical complexities?

First breach​

On Oct. 14, the official Twitter account for Indexed, a DAO-governed DeFi protocol, reported an error with two of its index fund-style automatically rebalancing liquidity pools, one that had drained nearly half of Indexed’s $34 million in total value locked.
We're aware of an incident that has just taken place within the DEFI5 and CC10 pools.

Looking into it.
— Indexed Finance (@ndxfi) October 14, 2021
An analysis from exploit-focused publication Rekt shows the error was in fact an attack launched from an Ethereum address funded by privacy mixer Tornado Cash. From that address, an attacker used flash loans to knock the balance of the pools out of kilter and buy out component assets at a heavily discounted rate.
In the days since, the Indexed team and an ad-hoc “war room” of industry experts convened to mitigate the damage and gather information. And in the course of their investigation they believe they have found the attacker’s real-world identity: It’s an 18-year-old mathematics prodigy who goes by “Andy.”

Both the Indexed core team and DeFi community members who claim to have spoken with Andy say that he has refused to return the funds, and that he intends to face any criminal charges resulting from his exploit in court – arguing that he simply executed a fully legal arbitrage trade.

A tweet thread from an account claiming to belong to Andy thanked well-wishers for their comments over the past week and asked for lawyer recommendations on Thursday. Likewise, in an email exchange with CoinDesk, Andy did not confirm he had conducted the attack, but did say that he was seeking legal counsel. (Andy has since stopped returning CoinDesk’s emails, though other attempts have been made to contact him.)

Speaking seriously now:
I want to thank everyone that has been sending me letters of support. I have one favor to ask for followers and friends. I am looking for the most elite crypto lawyers. I will need an entire team.
— ZetaZeroes (@ZetaZeroes) October 21, 2021
If the case does go before a judge, it could be a test of “code is law” – a popular phrase in DeFi circles referring to a common mindset. In the absence of regulation, the thinking goes, the DeFi ecosystem is purely adversarial and anything permissible by code is also by nature ethically permissable. Where one man might see an exploit, another may just see “crypto trading.”

A number of legal experts who spoke to CoinDesk dismissed this notion, however, and said that while a case might be complex and perhaps novel, a court will not necessarily cede to DeFi’s unofficial ethos.

‘War room’​

Shortly after the attack was discovered, the core Indexed team found a number of clues leading them to believe that they had identified the hacker: a young developer who had been speaking with team member Laurence Day for months.

“It was perfectly affable, friendly, smiles, lots of emojis. A perfectly normal dude,” Day said of Andy in an interview with CoinDesk.

While Day did not write the code for the protocol, he maintains it and, as a result, “understands it pretty deeply.”

“I don’t feel like I got catfished or something because I was discussing information that was publicly available, but this did take me by surprise,” Day added.

Once they had a suspect, the team assembled its online “war room.” Members included Curve contributor Julien Bouteloup, Rotki founder Lefteris Karapetsas and pseudonymous Yearn.Finance core contributor “Banteg,” among others.

In an interview with CoinDesk, Banteg said the decision to join the war room was an easy one.

“I don’t turn these invitations down because I know how it feels when you find yourself in a situation like this, and I believe I can provide meaningful support and the needed outside perspective to help handle it gracefully and avoid stupid mistakes caused by stress no human should endure alone,” Banteg said.

Ethical debate​

Once the team had information on the attacker, they decided to issue an ultimatum: Return the funds or be reported to law enforcement authorities.

Update: we have identified the Indexed attacker and found links to exchanges. We are now presenting an ultimatum.https://t.co/6up6ekN26g
— Laurence Ξ. Day (@laurence_e_day) October 16, 2021
In the past, threats of doxxing have proven to be effective. Following a $3 million exploit of a non-fungible token (NFT) drop in September, developers successfully intimidated the attacker into returning the stolen funds after, among other negotiation tactics, ordering miso soup to the attacker’s house.


Actually following through with the threat is perhaps novel, however, and the decision prompted significant internal debate among the team.

According to core Indexed contributor Dillon Kellar, the nature of Indexed’s DAO structure played heavily into the team’s thinking.

“Once he made it clear that he’s not gonna give up, that he doesn’t care we’ve found this damning evidence on him, at that point we had a difficult decision because if we just go to law enforcement, if we keep that information to ourselves, we’re effectively taking ownership of the situation ourselves, and we couldn’t do that,” Kellar said.

Other DAO members may wish to individually or collectively pursue remuneration in civil court, and if core team members withheld Andy’s personal information, it could prevent them from doing so – ultimately prompting a moral argument in favor of doxxing.

“We’re not comfortable with the idea of publicly doxxing, but Indexed is not a legal entity – it’s a DAO. And Dillon and I don’t have the right to solely own this information, or to take ownership of the legal battle. This is a cornered response,” said Day.

Banteg likewise expressed discomfort with the decision, but backed going forward with it.

“It’s unprecedented. Ethics-wise, as you can imagine, all this feels quite uneasy. I believe Indexed gave the hacker more than enough ways out, but he thinks he’s invincible.”

In the end, the war room had a full consensus.

“There’s no one in the room that’s given serious pushback to the route that’s been taken. We know we’ve done everything we can,” said Day. “I don’t care for the edgelords and the frogs. Anyone who has something valuable to say on this is with us.”

Child prodigy​

However, as the team’s deadline passed with no word from Andy, Banteg made a surprise discovery: The attacker isn’t just “immensely talented” – at just 18 years old, he’s a teenage genius.

According to a cached version of his now-defunct personal website, Andy will soon complete his master’s degree in mathematics from the University of Waterloo in Ontario (also Ethereum co-founder Vitalik Buterin’s alma mater); he has authored papers on “Enumerating Smooth Schubert Varieties” and “Grothendieck’s Classification of Line Bundles over the Riemann Sphere” among other complex subjects; and according to a 2016 article from Canada’s Globe and Mail, he completed high-school math at just 13 years old.

His online presence also indicates a vainglorious streak. On a Wikipedia forum in 2016, Andy referred to himself as an “expert in mathematics and theoretical physics.” He even entered himself in a game show wiki as a “notable mathematician.”

The claim is now a “dark joke” in the Indexed war room, Day said: He’s become exactly that, though not for his scholarship.

“I guess he out-manifested all of us,” Day added.

Paternal concerns​

This discovery presented the war room with yet another ethical conundrum, as many felt that reporting a teenager carried additional weight. The new information prevented them from “dropping the hammer” immediately, as Kellar put it.

“I taught computer science and I never had someone quite of Andy’s level, but I know the type. When you’re this particular type of person – look, 18 is a man in the eyes of the law, but mentally you’re still a child,” said Day. “I don’t know if that comes off as denigrating to him or whether I’m sounding excessively sympathetic, but I think this is a case of vast, vast skill at the expense of almost everything else.”

Likewise, Jason Gottlieb of U.S. law firm Morrison Cohen framed the situation in paternalistic terms. Gottlieb was retained by Day and Kellar to represent Indexed in reporting the crimes to law enforcement.

“I think the fact that he is only 18 is something that could be some cause for empathy. I have a son who is close to that age, so from a dad’s viewpoint I have some empathy, knowing that teenagers can do stupid things. I know I did stupid things as a teenager,” said Gottlieb.

However, the new information led the team to new leads, including the discovery that Andy had allegedly been frequenting extremist circles online. During the investigation the team found he was part of a data leak from a web service hosting alt-right communities.

There are also a host of other clues suggesting hateful ideologies: the calldata for Andy’s attack included a racial slur; the attacking Ethereum address starts with “BA5Ed1488,” a numerological reference to a neo-Nazi slogan; a bizarre tweet thread from ZetaZero included bracketing certain words in triple brackets, a popular anti-Semitic dog whistle.

Additionally, the ZetaZero account recently retweeted a post referring to Andy as “the Dylan Roof of Balancer pools,” a reference to a white supremacist terrorist who killed nine black churchgoers in 2015.

@ZetaZeroes the Dylan Roof of Balancer Pools
— Well EnDAO’d (@DAOhound_) October 17, 2021
While members of the war room said they could not identify a particular moment where they made the firm decision to release Andy’s information despite his age, the ties to extremism played into their thinking.

“The frustrating thing is, until he had made all these ugly parts of himself known – the white supremacy, the anti-Semitism, the general, unbearable dickish nature of him – if he had returned 90% and kept a bounty, we would have at least asked him to audit code. And had he disclosed this stuff with us, we would have given him $50K to $100K and had him join the team in a heartbeat,” said Day.

Kellar also said that age alone could not distract from the gravity of Andy’s actions.

“For a regular 18-year-old, I would have concerns about releasing his information. And it’s not to say I still don’t, but the fact is he’s a very advanced 18-year-old. He has a master’s degree. He finished high school at 13. And he has taken the action of stealing $16 million. And if he’s going to be adult enough to do those things, he’s adult enough to face the legal consequences,” said Kellar.

Codeslaw​

In the eyes of some members of the DeFi community, however, Andy didn’t steal anything at all.

A popular rallying cry for many DeFi die-hards is “code is law,” often derisively referred to as “codeslaw.” This view, perhaps best elucidated in an essay by pseudonymous e-Girl Capital intern “Odette,” holds that there is no such thing as a “hack” or a “rug pull” in DeFi, and that it’s the responsibility of each actor to thoroughly vet all on-chain actions – if you lose money to a hack or a faulty contract, it’s on you.

Because all information is freely available on-chain and actions on-chain are immutable, DeFi is ultimately then a self-contained and deterministic environment operating outside of normal regulatory and ethical parameters, or so the thinking goes.

what a boomer take :(

code is law if the market is unregulated

welcome to crypto

no place for mistakes

you snooze you lose
— AnonDeFiBaron (@AnonDeFiBaron) October 21, 2021
Day worries that a faction of the DeFi community who believes in code is law is now egging Andy on.

“I think he’s listening to a legion of frogs. They’re calling him based, and asking him for money, and hailing him as a hero,” he said.

Admirers flocking to successful hackers isn’t unusual. In the wake of the $613 million Poly Network hack, panhandlers and admirers used messages on the Ethereum network to cheer the culprit on.

Social consensus​

However, in practice, the notion of “code is law” may have already been disproven.

“Frankly, it’s tiring,” Lefteris Karapetsas told CoinDesk. “We had this fight five years ago.”

Back in 2016, Karapetsas was the technical lead for Slock.it, a startup that spearheaded The DAO – a notorious early investment experiment whose failure led to a chain split that led to the creation of Ethereum Classic.

“The ‘code is law’ version of Ethereum was born out of that. It’s called ETC and it still exists. The coleslaw proponents can just go play there,” Karapetsas said.

The current, canonical Ethereum chain is the result of the community reaching social consensus to effectively “undo” The DAO hack rather than let code be fully deterministic – and that’s a good thing, according to Karapetsas.


“No builder in this space in their right mind believes that code is law. It’s just a meme that is perpetuated by anon on-lookers who just like to see chaos unfold,” he said.

cOdE iS laW https://t.co/9WSh3uE2O1 pic.twitter.com/qFjgSVgT7z
— Lefteris Karapetsas | Hiring for @rotkiapp (@LefterisJP) October 17, 2021
He added that if the community were to embrace such principles, the end result would quickly turn dystopian.

“If code was law then this field would just be a playground for hackers who will be continuously trying to steal funds out of protocols. They would be eponymous and idolized. While the users would be blamed for ‘not reading the code well enough.’ Which is essentially what every coleslaw proponent says,” he said.

Legal wrinkles​

The question now turns to whether “code is law” will hold up in a court of law.

Gottlieb confirmed to CoinDesk that he has turned over all relevant information to multiple law enforcement agencies, but declined to specify which ones.

While it’s an open question as to if those agencies will have the technical expertise to analyze the case and issue an arrest warrant, Gottlieb suggested they’re further along than some DeFi-natives might think.

“I wouldn’t assume that the authorities are not familiar with these sorts of things,” he said. “I’ve already reached out to contacts that I have in various agencies in law enforcement, and there are folks in law enforcement who deal with cryptocurrency hacks and thefts.”

Gottlieb noted that the individuals he’s spoken to are “very sophisticated” in their understanding of the space and that they are “interested” in the case.

Regardless of whether he’s arrested, Andy may also have grounds to file counter-charges.

Matt Burgoyne, a securities and crypto lawyer at Canadian firm McLeod Law LLP, said that even before the case gets before a judge there could already be complications. Burgoyne told CoinDesk he is not representing Andy.

“Doxxing can be illegal in Canada and the extent of legal consequences depends on the circumstances. Doxxing can give rise to charges of criminal harassment, invasion of privacy and stalking. I don’t believe this will go to court and if it did, I’m sure there would be damages on both sides,” he said.

Erich Dylus, a legal engineer for the oracle network API3, voiced personal discomfort with doxxing and also said it may lead to counter-charges.

“I think public doxxing can be extremely dangerous and often leads to undesirable misplaced vigilantism or trial by public opinion. Not to mention potentially opening avenues of liability for the doxxers,” he said.

In a tweet on Thursday, Kellar said Andy and his family have been receiving threats, and called on the community cease with the abuse and to pursue other “legal remedies.”

If you feel our efforts to address the situation have been inadequate, there are legal remedies you can pursue; threatening him or his family isn't one of them.
— Dillon Kellar (@d1ll0nk) October 21, 2021

Stealing from the collection plate​

Once these grievances have been parsed, however, the question then turns to whether a court can grapple with the complexity of weighted automated market makers (AMM), flash loans and so-called “economic exploits.”

Geoff Costeloe, an associate at Canadian firm Lindsey MacCarthy LLP and LexDAO member, said that Indexed’s DAO structure could lead to hiccups.

“I’m going to be following the recovery side of the matter,” he said. “Because Indexed is a decentralized DAO, I am curious to see how they file their claim and how they describe their relation to the protocol and other DAO members. Will they say it is a partnership or a corporation? Or will they say they are individuals?”

Gottlieb, the Indexed lawyer, brushed these concerns aside. He compared the exploit to a church congregation which had raised funds for some cause: if stolen, it’s no less of a crime just because it would be difficult to track precisely who owned what at a specific time.

Pure delusion​

Of the half-dozen lawyers CoinDesk spoke to, all agreed that while the potential case may seem as if it will set a number of precedents at first blush, the reality is that a court will likely evaluate the exploit in simple terms.

Crypto attorney Stephen Palley warned that if the case does make it to court, it could be a moment that definitively ends DeFi’s fanciful notions of self-regulation.

“It’s the height of stupidity to say ‘code is law’ in this situation. It’s a magical incantation that means nothing,” the Anderson Kill lawyer told CoinDesk.

“There’s nothing terribly new here,” he added. “Old wine, new bottles; self-serving human greed. Is robbing a bank an ‘economic exploit?’ Saying that is frigging stupid. There’s nothing about this, if handled properly, that is groundbreaking precedent.”

If a door to a bank is open and you go in and the vault is open and you take the money and leave it's a really great idea to defend yourself when the police arriving by saying "lissen ossifers, door is law!"

They will let you go then.

Guaranteed.
— Palley (@stephendpalley) October 20, 2021
Multiple lawyers and Indexed core team members pointed in particular towards signs of Andy’s intent that might erode his defense.

“This wasn’t some case where there was a contract that just had a simple mistake, what some people are calling an economic exploit,” said Kellar, the Indexed core team member. “He didn’t pull a lever that spit out too many coins, it was a sophisticated attack that exploited a very specific vulnerability that nobody found for a year.””

A sequence of actions leading into the attack will undermine any attempt by Andy to frame the exploit as a “happy accident,” Kellar added.

“If a [bank] teller or system makes an error and someone gets unjustly enriched, that certainly doesn’t impose criminal sanctions on the individual who received a boon,” said Costeloe, the MacCarthy LLP lawyer. “They may have been unjustly enriched but they were also innocently enriched, with no intention on their part. The situation with Indexed is a bit different than that because the hacker wrote code and attacked the protocol in a way that shows clear intent to enrich him or herself.”

In the end, multiple lawyers dismissed the “code is law” argument, referring to it as “delusion” and holding it as “delusional.”

Grim determination​

On Thursday morning, Andy’s alleged ZetaZero Twitter account posted a short thread in which he framed the forthcoming legal battle as a “duel.”

Speaking seriously now:
I want to thank everyone that has been sending me letters of support. I have one favor to ask for followers and friends. I am looking for the most elite crypto lawyers. I will need an entire team.
— ZetaZeroes (@ZetaZeroes) October 21, 2021
Despite the seeming inertia tilting towards a legal confrontation, both Gottlieb and Palley noted that if Andy were to return the funds there’s a chance the incident might not have to be litigated.

Palley said that returning the funds “doesn’t undo the crime,” but it could lead a prosecutor to decline to pursue charges.

The core Indexed team, however, has reached a point of “grim determination,” according to Day.

“I’ve had the time to process all of this now, and there’s going to me a maelstrom that kicks up on Twitter, but on the balance of things I know this was the right thing to do. Dillon [Kellar] and I will be pariahs in parts of the space now, but it was the right thing to do,” he said of doxxing Andy.

Kellar made it clear that they’re also viewing court as an increasingly likely outcome.

“Some people have said he might move to Venezuela or some place without extradition – I don’t think that will happen. It really seems like he wants this to be a precedent-building case, so if he doesn’t returns the funds I expect this to go to court,” said Kellar.

“He’s trying to stamp his name in history, and he’s going to get it, but ruinously so,” said Day. “It’s a little bit heartbreaking. A colossal waste of talent, time and money. And for what? I just want to say to him, ‘God damn it, Andy, why have you made us do this?’”

 

TAEZZAR

LADY JUSTICE ISNT BLIND, SHES JUST AFRAID TO WATCH
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It's all BULLSCHIFF !! THEFT IS THEFT !!!
This is a FINE example of why I will not join the lunacy of 1's & 0's as money or any other form of value ! :gold: :gold:
 

wastrel

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“If code was law then this field would just be a playground for hackers who will be continuously trying to steal funds out of protocols. "

Sounds like that's precisely what's happening.

Assuming that this guy did not alter any of the code operating on the associated platforms, I'd say this isn't theft at all. I'd argue it's more like a casino that programmed their slot machines "incorrectly" and let someone win a larger jackpot than they were supposed to get. It's not the fault of the player that the casino messed up, the player just played the game according to the rules set up by the casino, and should get the money. Similarly, if this guy noticed some condition in the protocols that let him do this, then so be it. Live by the code, die by the code.

Of course, if he did alter their code, then that is indeed theft, and off to jail with him.
 

Ensoniq

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Codeslaw- learned something new

Interesting mindset, if I can pick your lock and rob you, it’s your fault for having a weak lock
 

wastrel

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Codeslaw- learned something new

Interesting mindset, if I can pick your lock and rob you, it’s your fault for having a weak lock
That's the problem. Putting a lock on something signifies that you don't want someone to take whatever is protected by the lock. Your intent is expressed by the action of putting on the lock and actually locking it. Someone else breaking the lock and taking the contents is clearly violating that expressed intent.

If you code up a game online, and invite other people to play that game, and they do... isn't the code expressing what your intent is? If you call that game "decentralized finance", is the code still your expressed intent? (remember, computers don't care what the documentation claims, they only run the actual written and complied code)

I don't know. These sorts of questions are why we have courts.

Though I do think it's hypocritical of those who want their DeFi game to stay out of the clutches of those fossilized central governments, to run to those same fossilized governments when someone plays their game in some way they hadn't thought of or prevented. But that's just my opinion.
 

Ensoniq

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You’re more advanced in the subject than I

If I’m on the jury it’s going to be tough to convince me that virtual currency, despite having a clear and known cash conversion rate, is ok to take because I didn’t make it clear I didn’t want you to take it.

Maybe I’m missing the crowdsource/participation aspect somewhat. To me it’s still property of a different form

Could be a boomer problem
 

BarnacleBob

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It's all BULLSCHIFF !! THEFT IS THEFT !!!
This is a FINE example of why I will not join the lunacy of 1's & 0's as money or any other form of value ! :gold: :gold:

The ? is, "Is/was it a theft or was it just a exploited trade"??? No different than computers intercepting stock market traffic and grabbing the info (High Frequency Trading,) to trade with.... No different than exploiting a companies vulnerable balance sheet, etc.. On the other hand, if he hacked into the system to exploit a security vulnerability, then I would call it theft... The case can be heard in Courts of Equity & Law Merchant... Interesting case.
 

TAEZZAR

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The ? is, "Is/was it a theft or was it just a exploited trade"??? No different than computers intercepting stock market traffic and grabbing the info (High Frequency Trading,) to trade with.... No different than exploiting a companies vulnerable balance sheet, etc.. On the other hand, if he hacked into the system to exploit a security vulnerability, then I would call it theft... The case can be heard in Courts of Equity & Law Merchant... Interesting case.

He TOOK, WITHOUT permission, what did NOT belong to him ! :totally steamed:
That is THEFT, how more clear can it be ?:don't    know2:

GUILTY ON ALL COUNTS !!:judge:jail::shit happens:
 

Casey Jones

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Grand Theft, x the number of wallets he stole out of.

Plus, tax evasion.

He can be a trusty in prison - and get special privilege doing the warden's taxes and his wife's self-employment books.

Thirty years, at the very least.
 

specsaregood

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It's all BULLSCHIFF !! THEFT IS THEFT !!!

How is it theft?
An analysis from exploit-focused publication Rekt shows the error was in fact an attack launched from an Ethereum address funded by privacy mixer Tornado Cash. From that address, an attacker used flash loans to knock the balance of the pools out of kilter and buy out component assets at a heavily discounted rate.
That doesn't sound like theft. He didn't hack a pwd and transfer the funds to his own account; he didnt hold a gun to the head of any cashier. It sounds like he found a flaw in automated systems and used that to his advantage. Where did he gain any funds without the previous fundowners agreement? Is this not the similar to legal bullshit hedgefunds pull of all the time?
 

specsaregood

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He TOOK, WITHOUT permission, what did NOT belong to him ! :totally steamed:
That is THEFT, how more clear can it be ?:don't    know2:

GUILTY ON ALL COUNTS !!:judge:jail::shit happens:

Where did he take it without permission? If the people gave bots permission to trade their funds, they gave permission for the bots to lose it all for them when they got suckered. One could argue that its immoral; but it doesn't sound like theft to me.
 

TAEZZAR

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Where did he take it without permission? If the people gave bots permission to trade their funds, they gave permission for the bots to lose it all for them when they got suckered. One could argue that its immoral; but it doesn't sound like theft to me.
I wonder what you would call it, if it happened to you ?
 

specsaregood

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I wonder what you would call it, if it happened to you ?
Id consider the same thing as losing a bet on a game of chance.
 

Ensoniq

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Id consider the same thing as losing a bet on a game of chance.

Trying to stay open minded….did the “loser” in this case know he was wagering?

Or was sloppy or not thought through work leave him open to getting ripped off

Not being snarky, I’m asking because I don’t understand the transaction. It smells like a hack but may be more sophisticated than I can articulate
 

<SLV>

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It's all BULLSCHIFF !! THEFT IS THEFT !!!
This is a FINE example of why I will not join the lunacy of 1's & 0's as money or any other form of value ! :gold: :gold:
And law enforcement can't confiscate cash at will or break into your safe to confiscate gold?
 

specsaregood

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Trying to stay open minded….did the “loser” in this case know he was wagering?

Or was sloppy or not thought through work leave him open to getting ripped off

Not being snarky, I’m asking because I don’t understand the transaction. It smells like a hack but may be more sophisticated than I can articulate
Maybe one of the crypto people here will chime in. All i known is what is in the article in the op. But it doesnt sound like a hack to me: just somebody getting the better of traders by playing by the rules better than them.
 

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Codeslaw- learned something new

Interesting mindset, if I can pick your lock and rob you, it’s your fault for having a weak lock
NOTHING IS ESCAPE PROOF or PICK PROOF. All security measures are meant to deter the lazy and to slow down the inspired until the "guards" get there.
 

TAEZZAR

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And law enforcement can't confiscate cash at will or break into your safe to confiscate gold?
YUP, and you are "preaching to the choir" ! :finished::beer::shit happens:
 

TAEZZAR

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NOTHING IS ESCAPE PROOF or PICK PROOF. All security measures are meant to deter the lazy and to slow down the inspired until the "guards" get there.


My father said, on many occasions, "Locks were made to keep honest people honest, thieves will get in regardless". :gracious:
 

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And law enforcement can't confiscate cash at will or break into your safe to confiscate gold?
Of course it can and does.

That the lawless government is thieving, is not moral sanction. Nor is it suspension of laws, criminal or moral.

Theft is theft. Unless you want to join the Elites in complete jettisoning of morality, and live like Mogadishu street fighters.
 

Casey Jones

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My father said, on many occasions, "Locks were made to keep honest people honest, thieves will get in regardless". :gracious:
More pragmatically, locks slow down thieves. So many don't bother to protect their stuff, that your just locking your car or fence gate, sends them looking for easier pickings.
 

BarnacleBob

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How is it theft?

That doesn't sound like theft. He didn't hack a pwd and transfer the funds to his own account; he didnt hold a gun to the head of any cashier. It sounds like he found a flaw in automated systems and used that to his advantage. Where did he gain any funds without the previous fundowners agreement? Is this not the similar to legal bullshit hedgefunds pull of all the time?

Without knowing more details to the story, your outlook on this matter mostly correspondes to mine... It sounds like the team did not close a trading vulnerabilty which the guy exploited for profit... Catching the team flat footed. And of course they now want to employ & deploy the law to reverse their misfortune & absolve themselves of any responsibility for the losses.... Banks are master's at this kind of burden shifting!
 

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Codeslaw- learned something new

Interesting mindset, if I can pick your lock and rob you, it’s your fault for having a weak lock
A lock is the wrong metaphor. A better metaphor is a vending machine. Someone made a vending machine with a flaw. A customer found he could push the buttons in the right way on the machine and get extra stuff dispensed to him. He did not break into the vending machine or break any locks, he only fiddled with the interface buttons on the machine.

It's that theft?
 

Buck

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i have a master key, it opens up thousands of private locks that were sold across the decades...if i find a lock the key will open, suddenly that's not at least 'entering'?

, a basic law of society; if i mess with it, and it's not mine, i'm responsible...especially when i get caught


these 'nebulous laws' are our downfall
 

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It's that theft?


Yes.

Does the owner wish you to get the candy bar by manipulating keys?

He does not? Does he get fair compensation for your manipulating keys? No?

Then it it theft.

If I accidentally leave my home door unlocked, and you find it that way...are you then authorized to enter and loot my home?
 

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A lock is the wrong metaphor. A better metaphor is a vending machine. Someone made a vending machine with a flaw. A customer found he could push the buttons in the right way on the machine and get extra stuff dispensed to him. He did not break into the vending machine or break any locks, he only fiddled with the interface buttons on the machine.

It's that theft?
Did this guy actually do that? Or did he just find flaws in automated trading programs? The article isnt clear.
 

Buck

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it's a violation of humanity


like that old saying: Possession is 9/10ths of the law

clearly we know this isn't correct, but, many of us have used that line for a myriad of reasons, some reasons, i had one, was for outright theft

and i got away with it because i had peers to back me up...might made right that day

although, it wasn't right, it was theft
 

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although, it wasn't right, it was theft

what isn't right is using the fact that you are in an unregulated market, outside the govt control as a selling point, then go running to a govt for revenge when you get taken. that aint right.
 

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what isn't right is using the fact that you are in an unregulated market, outside the govt control as a selling point, then go running to a govt for revenge when you get taken. that aint right.
Rule of Law.

Government's BASIC and INTENDED purpose, is to protect Man's Natural Rights.

Theft is a violation of man's right to property - to the results of his labor.

Revenge has nothing to do with it - it's called "justice." It's what should happen as a result of crime.

And yes, theft is a crime.
 

specsaregood

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Rule of Law.

Government's BASIC and INTENDED purpose, is to protect Man's Natural Rights.

Theft is a violation of man's right to property - to the results of his labor.

Revenge has nothing to do with it - it's called "justice." It's what should happen as a result of crime.

And yes, theft is a crime.
What law? Its an unregulated international market.
 

TAEZZAR

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Rule of Law.

Government's BASIC and INTENDED purpose, is to protect Man's Natural Rights.

Theft is a violation of man's right to property - to the results of his labor.

Revenge has nothing to do with it - it's called "justice." It's what should happen as a result of crime.

And yes, theft is a crime.
AND taking what is NOT YOURS, is THEFT ! :2 thumbs up: :finished: :gracious:
 

TAEZZAR

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What law? Its an unregulated international market.
You guys are totally missing the point. FUCK the law, FUCK the "just-us system". When you take what is not yours, your ass should be kicked !
No "if, ands, or buts about it !:totally steamed::totally steamed::totally steamed::totally steamed:
 

Buck

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being a good steward to the planet and to our neighbors often requires us to simply 'do the right thing' regardless if anyone is watching or not


...let's just call in Karma for a bit here...



i won't go on, but if that's your 'flavor', have at it, but one day, one day


it's a ritual for some, that good old karmic feeling...it must be
 

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Looks like a civil complaint in equity to me.... If the guy didn't crack passwords or exploit known, unknown, or backdoor security vulnerabilities, then he must have exploited a trading condition, which is not theft.
 

TAEZZAR

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Looks like a civil complaint in equity to me.... If the guy didn't crack passwords or exploit known, unknown, or backdoor security vulnerabilities, then he must have exploited a trading condition, which is not theft.
Did he take what belonged to another ???? If so, that IS THEFT !!!!
 

Buck

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Looks like a civil complaint in equity to me.... If the guy didn't crack passwords or exploit known, unknown, or backdoor security vulnerabilities, then he must have exploited a trading condition, which is not theft.
and that guy sitting in the car, waiting for his buddies to come out of the bank...making a withdrawl


he didn't kill anyone either


perhaps we should go back and rethink our entire legal system, include all the loopholes...i actually never molested that child, they were asking for it

i didn't steal that car, it was just sitting there...with the keys in it


come on...
 

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Did he take what belonged to another ???? If so, that IS THEFT !!!!
There is no point arguing without more info. It doesnt sound like he took anything to me. It sounds like the losers on this had an automated trading system that made bad trades. That is not theft.
 

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What law? Its an unregulated international market.

The Law is the olde merchant equity law from antiquity.... It's the same law, Lex Mercatoria (Law Merchant) that the IRS uses to enforce private commercial law, aka U.S. tax laws. It's the written & unwritten law of mechants, merchantile & money. The Uniform Commercial Code is the written most used parts of Law Merchant. Law Merchant is basically a private system of law that seeks fairness & justice for the parties involved with the complaint.... In fact he most of the private courts today are practicing law merchant from the bench!

I wish everyone would read:

The Dispatch of Merchants

 

ds_mustang

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Yes.

Does the owner wish you to get the candy bar by manipulating keys?

He does not? Does he get fair compensation for your manipulating keys? No?

Then it it theft.

If I accidentally leave my home door unlocked, and you find it that way...are you then authorized to enter and loot my home?
There were no doors left unlocked. Doors and locks are there to stop people from entering, a vending machine interface is there to be used. In this case only the vending machine interface was used but it had a flaw. Does the vending machine maker have any responsibility for making an interface that doesn't function as he expected? Why is it everyone else's responsibility to know what the vending machine maker's intentions were and only use the interface as "expected?"
 

TAEZZAR

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There were no doors left unlocked. Doors and locks are there to stop people from entering, a vending machine interface is there to be used. In this case only the vending machine interface was used but it had a flaw. Does the vending machine maker have any responsibility for making an interface that doesn't function as he expected? Why is it everyone else's responsibility to know what the vending machine maker's intentions were and only use the interface as "expected?"
Back when I was kid, 1950's. We learned how to reach up, inside of a vending machines & trip the levers to get "free" candy & even cig's !!!
I guess today, we were not stealing, BUT BACK THEN, IT WAS TAKING WHAT WAS NOT YOURS !!! THEFT ! :Grrr::Grrr::Grrr::Grrr::Grrr::Grrr::Grrr::Grrr: