• Same story, different day...........year ie more of the same fiat floods the world
  • There are no markets
  • "Spreading the ideas of freedom loving people on matters regarding high finance, politics, constructionist Constitution, and mental masturbation of all types"

America the Beautiful 5 oz Silver Bullion Coins

90%RealMoney

Midas Member
Midas Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2011
Messages
4,796
Likes
4,025
Location
Left Flank, Oceana...Locked and Loaded!
Good question. Not only did they let the cat out of the bag at the eleventh hour, they had no purchase limits. There were definitely some big dealers who bought four digit quantities. The end result is that the collectors didn't have a chance to get in on the ground floor - only into the secondary market. It was a 'made for dealers' scenario.
Apparently the Dealers are guaranteed so many coins.
 

savvydon

Gold Member
Gold Chaser
Joined
Dec 14, 2010
Messages
2,283
Likes
1,733
Apparently the Dealers are guaranteed so many coins.
It was a first come first served deal but they didn't even announce the 'S' mint mark until a week or so before they went on sale. Anyone could have gotten the coin but you had to be ready at the helm of a computer with a fast connection and ready to act almost instantly. Most of those who do this are dealers with lots of experience. What the Mint's intent was I can't say. The effect however, was that a dealer driven market in this coin got created.
 

Silver Art

Silver Art Bar collector
Site Supporter
Platinum Bling
Joined
Sep 4, 2011
Messages
4,441
Likes
2,541
Location
Tennessee
Another big mintage hit on the effigy bullion puck as of the writing of this post today (June 20, 2017)...............

Effigy - 35,000

Frederick Douglass - 20,000

Ozark - 20,000

Fort Moultrie (5th puck of 2016) - 35,000

Meanwhile on JMBullion, the prices are as follows (lowest price for 100+ paying by check/wire/BTC found on JMBullion; kitco current spot silver = $16.44/oz):

Effigy - $107.55

Frederick - $152.55

Ozark - $117.55

Ft Moultrie - $100.50


I am starting to wonder if Frederick is a ticking mintage bomb like Ft Moultrie was (still is). Hmmmm...............How many Frederick bullion pucks do the USMint have hidden in the breakroom? . Beware. I do not trust the 20,000 mintage for the Frederick Douglass bullion puck. Something stinks here and it ain't me.
 

Mr Paradise

Midas Member
Midas Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Messages
7,170
Likes
7,536
Location
Lake Superior
They didn't move the numbers up this week on the Ozark puck, but you know that didn't stay at 20,000 especially with Ag dipping almost $1. It's like they're trying to draw in the speculators (like me) before they move those numbers up to 35,000 like Effigy and Moultrie.
 

Silver Art

Silver Art Bar collector
Site Supporter
Platinum Bling
Joined
Sep 4, 2011
Messages
4,441
Likes
2,541
Location
Tennessee
They didn't move the numbers up this week on the Ozark puck, but you know that didn't stay at 20,000 especially with Ag dipping almost $1. It's like they're trying to draw in the speculators (like me) before they move those numbers up to 35,000 like Effigy and Moultrie.
Yeah the USMint is manipulating the mintage numbers. That is why I do not buy many bullion ATB pucks. I only bought Effigy and Frederick bullion pucks this year because I really liked them enough to buy the bullion and "P" versions and I do not plan to buy the remaining 2017 bullion pucks. A year or two after they are released, if the after market premium is really high, then I will bottom fish for the lowest .999 generic silver premium on those bullion pucks in so I can turn around and flip them on ebay for a collector premium. I want to be a fat cat too.
 

Silver Art

Silver Art Bar collector
Site Supporter
Platinum Bling
Joined
Sep 4, 2011
Messages
4,441
Likes
2,541
Location
Tennessee
I think all of these issues boil down to a bunch of morons running things at the Mint.
Yep just like at most (if not all) of the gov't departments.
 

Silver Art

Silver Art Bar collector
Site Supporter
Platinum Bling
Joined
Sep 4, 2011
Messages
4,441
Likes
2,541
Location
Tennessee
Apmex has Douglass bullion pucks for $158.00 now! Maybe they'll get it as long as people think only 20,000 have been sold so far. Then, after they sell out at that price, we'll find out sales are suddenly 35,000?
Yeah probably. It would not surprise me. Premium-wise, the Frederick bullion puck is starting to act like a 2012 Denali or Volcanos bullion puck. Hmmm...........I might sell my Frederick Douglass bullion puck on ebay while it is still at 20,000 mintage. Most of the ebay final sales figures are between $134 and $151 at the moment. I think I paid $117 for it at Apmex when it came out. I will think about it. Meanwhile I will vatch and vait and eat my popcorn.
 

Silver Art

Silver Art Bar collector
Site Supporter
Platinum Bling
Joined
Sep 4, 2011
Messages
4,441
Likes
2,541
Location
Tennessee
As of 12:40 AM, June 24, 2017 on JMBullion, the prices are as follows (lowest price for 100+ paying by check/wire/BTC found on JMBullion; kitco current spot silver = $16.68/oz):

Effigy - $109.00

Frederick - $164.00

Ozark - $129.00

Ft Moultrie - $102.00

Not much move in the spot silver price from post #4688 of this thread. Kitco spot moved from $16.44/oz to $16.68/oz but the prices have jumped the most on the Ozark and Frederick bullion pucks.
 

Mr Paradise

Midas Member
Midas Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Messages
7,170
Likes
7,536
Location
Lake Superior
So the one bullion puck with a black man on it and the mint decides to just churn out 20,000 .......how racist.
 

Foxwoods Man

Silver Member
Silver Miner
Joined
Jan 3, 2011
Messages
1,263
Likes
469
Just checked my April Fred APMEX order....$103.80/each for a tube of 10.....

Don't assume Fred is done.....present prices are weird though....check this out...SD Bullion prices...Effigy $107.07...Ozark...$116.57...Fred..$183.57!!

Hmmmm......
 

Foxwoods Man

Silver Member
Silver Miner
Joined
Jan 3, 2011
Messages
1,263
Likes
469
Ummmm......maybe I should revise my "Don't assume" from above....

Re: MCM about the Ozark puck

In an unexpected turn, the entire inventory of bullion 2017 Ozark 5 oz. Silver Coins produced by the U.S. Mint sold out only days after its release! While precise mintage numbers are unknown, it is clear that this is a new highlight in the America the Beautiful Coin Series.
...and from APMEX re: Fred

  • Sold-out from U.S. Mint as of 5/15/2017.
If these numbers hold Fred and Ozark will be in the same league as Hawaii and Denali
 
Last edited:

Silver Art

Silver Art Bar collector
Site Supporter
Platinum Bling
Joined
Sep 4, 2011
Messages
4,441
Likes
2,541
Location
Tennessee
Just checked my April Fred APMEX order....$103.80/each for a tube of 10.....

Don't assume Fred is done.....present prices are weird though....check this out...SD Bullion prices...Effigy $107.07...Ozark...$116.57...Fred..$183.57!!

Hmmmm......
Ummmm......maybe I should revise my "Don't assume" from above....

Re: MCM about the Ozark puck



...and from APMEX re: Fred
Maybe I should take back what I said about Frederick Douglass bullion puck being a "mintage bomb". Maybe 20,000 mintage is the final number for Fred and Ozark pucks. I still have some skepticism regarding the mintage on both Fred and Ozark pucks but I am not as skeptical as I was.
 

90%RealMoney

Midas Member
Midas Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2011
Messages
4,796
Likes
4,025
Location
Left Flank, Oceana...Locked and Loaded!
I think the Mint is at it again, manipulating for what reason, who knows? Last year's Silver Medal, has a limited mintage. This year, unlimited. Remember the Blue Ridge ATB's? One of the most popular, and they stopped selling the "P" coin prematurely. Now this. And all the online Retailers raise their price on the Douglass in unison. They are obviously privy to inside information. This is one reason why I purchased the 2017 Silver Medal. I don't trust what they say anymore. Unlimited mintage could end at any minute. Maybe their ploy is working.
 

Silver Art

Silver Art Bar collector
Site Supporter
Platinum Bling
Joined
Sep 4, 2011
Messages
4,441
Likes
2,541
Location
Tennessee
I think the Mint is at it again, manipulating for what reason, who knows? Last year's Silver Medal, has a limited mintage. This year, unlimited. Remember the Blue Ridge ATB's? One of the most popular, and they stopped selling the "P" coin prematurely. Now this. And all the online Retailers raise their price on the Douglass in unison. They are obviously privy to inside information. This is one reason why I purchased the 2017 Silver Medal. I don't trust what they say anymore. Unlimited mintage could end at any minute. Maybe their ploy is working.

That is a good point. Even though it says unlimited mintage for the 2017 American Liberty silver medal, the USMint could stop all orders and declare it as "sold out". When the Blue Ridge "P" coin "unexpectedly" "sold out", the price of the Blue Ridge "P" jumped to as high as $330. However, the prices for that puck have come down $160 to $230 range for some of the most recent ones that have sold on ebay.

I will say this..................If the mintage for the Frederick Douglass and the mintage for the Ozark hold at 20,000 each AFTER 18 months from now, then I will be impressed that the mintage for these two pucks will be tied for the lowest mintage bullion pucks along with 2012 Volcanos and 2012 Denali bullion pucks.

If the major online dealers are already raising their prices on the Fred and Ozark pucks, then that they knew something beforehand and probably knew that the Effigy bullion puck mintage would continue to rise and therefore did not raise their prices on that puck. If it did not already happen, then, eventually, the ebay sold auctions will reflect the $160-$180 prices like the online dealers have right now.

If one were to believe what I wrote in the above paragraph, then the best indicator of future potential key/low mintage bullion pucks is to look at what the premiums on the pucks that major online dealers (JMB, Apmex, Provident, etc.) are charging. Of course that is not fool-proof but it might be a good idea to track that to get an idea of what the major online dealer might know about the mintage of each current puck.
 

Silver Art

Silver Art Bar collector
Site Supporter
Platinum Bling
Joined
Sep 4, 2011
Messages
4,441
Likes
2,541
Location
Tennessee
MCM Has NGC slabbed Douglass MS69DPL for $155.00 on Ebay. They've had them at this price for months. Yet, they all are raising the price on their bare coins? Something stinks. Is another Douglass dump coming, with an additional 15,000 coins?
That is another possibility besides the other possibility that I wrote in post #4704 of this thread. Honestly who really knows? The last post was really just a WAG on what might be happening. The ATB bullion pucks are so unpredictable and there are some variables in play here such as spot silver price movement and demand for silver in relation to that price action.
 

Silver Art

Silver Art Bar collector
Site Supporter
Platinum Bling
Joined
Sep 4, 2011
Messages
4,441
Likes
2,541
Location
Tennessee

Foxwoods Man

Silver Member
Silver Miner
Joined
Jan 3, 2011
Messages
1,263
Likes
469
If the major online dealers are already raising their prices on the Fred and Ozark pucks, then that they knew something beforehand and probably knew that the Effigy bullion puck mintage would continue to rise and therefore did not raise their prices on that puck.
That makes sense since they are the ones placing the orders with the Mint so they SHOULD know when there are no more available. According to APMEX they knew Fred was sold out in the middle of May

The next puck isn't due until August. Do they (Mint) have that many previous pucks to keep processing orders? Maybe two months worth? Even with the quoted statements from those two companies I remain skeptical...
 

Mr Paradise

Midas Member
Midas Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Messages
7,170
Likes
7,536
Location
Lake Superior
Just checked my April Fred APMEX order....$103.80/each for a tube of 10.....

Don't assume Fred is done.....present prices are weird though....check this out...SD Bullion prices...Effigy $107.07...Ozark...$116.57...Fred..$183.57!!

Hmmmm......


Those prices tell me Fred is most likely done and Ozark and Effigy aren't.
 

Mr Paradise

Midas Member
Midas Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Messages
7,170
Likes
7,536
Location
Lake Superior
MCM Has NGC slabbed Douglass MS69DPL for $155.00 on Ebay. They've had them at this price for months. Yet, they all are raising the price on their bare coins? Something stinks. Is another Douglass dump coming, with an additional 15,000 coins?
MCM has them between $155-$199 all slabbed 69's but just different gimmicky letters and labels (DPL, DMPL, First Strike, First Release, Mercanti label, Flag Label)

The $155's might be ripe for deslabbing gamble.
 

Silver Art

Silver Art Bar collector
Site Supporter
Platinum Bling
Joined
Sep 4, 2011
Messages
4,441
Likes
2,541
Location
Tennessee
Looking back, I only bought one Effigy bullion puck and one Frederick bullion puck from Apmex. I paid $117 for the Frederick and I thought that I paid too much for it at that time but did not worry about it at that time.

For the little people such as myself that are not "in the know" in regards to what the bullion puck mintages will be beforehand, it seems to me that the bullion puck mintage can be much more unpredictable than the mintages on the "P" pucks.

I did not load up on any of the bullion pucks because I am very lousy at speculating what the final mintages will be. However, I am very good at "bottom fishing" for bullion pucks at coin shows and at the right brick and mortor coin dealers for relatively low premiums. With that said, there can be a good flipping opportunity for me personally if I can "bottom fish" for another Frederick Douglass bullion puck for $100 or less given current spot and flip it on ebay for current collector premiums. I am going to challenge myself on this. The last time that I was successful at "bottom fishing" for bullion pucks was the Arches bullion puck that I bought for $110 at a small coin show. I hope to sell it for $155 very soon. "Bottom fishing" for bullion pucks at coin shows and local dealers is the best way to be successful in making money on them IMO.
 

Foxwoods Man

Silver Member
Silver Miner
Joined
Jan 3, 2011
Messages
1,263
Likes
469
I love bottom fishing.....and most likely the "sold out" word has not reached the sellers of already listed items. I have my tube so no competition from me.....:2 thumbs up:

..another confirm on the Ozark sell out...these add to MCM.... from SD Bullion
Sold Out at the US Mint!
....and APMEX
2017 5 oz Silver ATB Ozark Riverways - This coin is sold out at the mint!
....and MintProducts.com (???)
2017 5 oz Ozark Riverways America The Beautiful Silver Coin - Gem BU - Sold Out at U.S. Mint!
 

savvydon

Gold Member
Gold Chaser
Joined
Dec 14, 2010
Messages
2,283
Likes
1,733
I would love to know if the mint does one run of each coin or more. I don't understand how it can be known that the Ozarks are sold out at the mint. What is to stop them from doing another run? How are the final mintage numbers decided? I would have guessed demand for the Ozark would have led to a higher mintage number.:don't    know2:
 

Silver Art

Silver Art Bar collector
Site Supporter
Platinum Bling
Joined
Sep 4, 2011
Messages
4,441
Likes
2,541
Location
Tennessee
I would love to know if the mint does one run of each coin or more. I don't understand how it can be known that the Ozarks are sold out at the mint. What is to stop them from doing another run? How are the final mintage numbers decided? I would have guessed demand for the Ozark would have led to a higher mintage number.:don't    know2:
Correct me if I am wrong but if I am not mistaken, the mint is authorized (by Congress???) to mint a max of 150,000 (max of 120,000 bullion pucks + max of 30,000 "P" pucks) so I would think that the Mint could do another run if they wanted to do so.

I also thought that the design alone would lead to a higher mintage for the Ozark bullion puck but I was wrong.
 

shallow_explorer

Silver Member
Silver Miner
Joined
Apr 1, 2010
Messages
119
Likes
93
Location
Just S of heaven
Lowest BIN price on the Douglass coins on eBay is nearly $160. BPM on eBay has the lowest priced Ozarks that I could find of any major dealer at just under $114. JMBullion already over $130 on the Ozarks. Buying Ozarks at $114 to sell at $150+ in a couple months once the dealers run out of stock is not a bad idea.
 

shallow_explorer

Silver Member
Silver Miner
Joined
Apr 1, 2010
Messages
119
Likes
93
Location
Just S of heaven
If I had to guess, the initial lack of interest in the Effigy coins was misinterpreted by the Mint as lack of interest in general vs. lack of interest due to an ugly design. They probably had 40-50k of the Effigies minted when someone looked at sales and said "stop the presses" these dogs arent selling. So on the next two designs, the Mint just makes the minimum 20k run. Since then they've moved on to other coins, while they can technically mint more Douglass and Ozark coins, I'm guessing they won't and I'm guessing this is what they have told the major dealers. When the dealers find out they can no longer replace stock, there's an initial jump in price from say $105 to $115-125. That's what we're seeing on the Ozarks. As the dealers start to run out of stock, there's a bigger jump, which is what we've seen on the Douglasses. If I had to guess, BPM's price on the Ozarks will be over $120 on Monday once they come back to work in Boston.
 

Silver Art

Silver Art Bar collector
Site Supporter
Platinum Bling
Joined
Sep 4, 2011
Messages
4,441
Likes
2,541
Location
Tennessee
If I had to guess, the initial lack of interest in the Effigy coins was misinterpreted by the Mint as lack of interest in general vs. lack of interest due to an ugly design. They probably had 40-50k of the Effigies minted when someone looked at sales and said "stop the presses" these dogs arent selling. So on the next two designs, the Mint just makes the minimum 20k run. Since then they've moved on to other coins, while they can technically mint more Douglass and Ozark coins, I'm guessing they won't and I'm guessing this is what they have told the major dealers. When the dealers find out they can no longer replace stock, there's an initial jump in price from say $105 to $115-125. That's what we're seeing on the Ozarks. As the dealers start to run out of stock, there's a bigger jump, which is what we've seen on the Douglasses. If I had to guess, BPM's price on the Ozarks will be over $120 on Monday once they come back to work in Boston.

Yeah that makes sense to me. I agree that the Ozarks on BPM will go up next week. That will happen. More than likely they will be sold out at current price by Monday (June 26).
 

savvydon

Gold Member
Gold Chaser
Joined
Dec 14, 2010
Messages
2,283
Likes
1,733
Correct me if I am wrong but if I am not mistaken, the mint is authorized (by Congress???) to mint a max of 150,000 (max of 120,000 bullion pucks + max of 30,000 "P" pucks) so I would think that the Mint could do another run if they wanted to do so.

I also thought that the design alone would lead to a higher mintage for the Ozark bullion puck but I was wrong.
This is correct as far as I know.

The question is, Why no more Ozarks? The mint stamps out 20,000 of them say in May, and they sell out in June. Is the reason no more are to be made because they are in the midst of production on the next coin?

I recall there was a special press brought in from Germany to do the 5oz ATBs. I wonder if the mint just has the one press. Perhaps this is why they don't go back and make more when there is a quick sell out? As SA would say, this is just a WAG on my part.
 

Silver Art

Silver Art Bar collector
Site Supporter
Platinum Bling
Joined
Sep 4, 2011
Messages
4,441
Likes
2,541
Location
Tennessee
This is correct as far as I know.

I recall there was a special press brought in from Germany to do the 5oz ATBs. I wonder if the mint just has the one press. Perhaps this is why they don't go back and make more when there is a quick sell out? As SA would say, this is just a WAG on my part.
I recall that too and I think that they only had one press since it was specific for minting 5-oz silver pucks. With only one press, Maybe it was too time consuming (and/or cost too much money) for the USMint to go back to mint more of the previous puck given the supposedly difficulty of minting a coin of that size.?????? Maybe they would fall too far behind schedule if they went back to switch out dies to mint the previous bullion puck?????

:don't    know2:
 

Mr Paradise

Midas Member
Midas Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Messages
7,170
Likes
7,536
Location
Lake Superior
If I had to guess, the initial lack of interest in the Effigy coins was misinterpreted by the Mint as lack of interest in general vs. lack of interest due to an ugly design. They probably had 40-50k of the Effigies minted when someone looked at sales and said "stop the presses" these dogs arent selling. So on the next two designs, the Mint just makes the minimum 20k run. Since then they've moved on to other coins, while they can technically mint more Douglass and Ozark coins, I'm guessing they won't and I'm guessing this is what they have told the major dealers. When the dealers find out they can no longer replace stock, there's an initial jump in price from say $105 to $115-125. That's what we're seeing on the Ozarks. As the dealers start to run out of stock, there's a bigger jump, which is what we've seen on the Douglasses. If I had to guess, BPM's price on the Ozarks will be over $120 on Monday once they come back to work in Boston.
Good theory, but how do you explain the mint suddenly creating nearly 10,000 2016 Moultries in May 2017? Current price is $97.90 at Apmex (cheapest puck) how many do they have hidden in the break room? 90,000??

Ozark the better design and actual state (District of Columbia Fred) is currently priced at Apmex $5 cheaper than the six figure mintage Gettysburg puck ....Apmex likes to make money and has insider knowledge so if the Ozark doesn't start matching the Fred price over the next week or so my guess is "sold out at mint" just means they haven't run another batch ....it is only June.