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FunnyMoney

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#1
essay removed
 
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BarnacleBob

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#2
"Walls & fences dont keep things out, they keep things in"!
 

bb28

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The wall is desired to keep us locked in here with our guns and to restrict OUR freedom of movement.
Are you suggesting that we Americans may want to flee South into Mexico with our guns and freedom of movement and would be hindered as we would need to cross the border by passing legally through immigration? Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?

bb
 

Bigfoot

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as we would need to cross the border by passing legally through immigration
In a scenario where gun owners are being rounded up, whether something is legal is no longer the concern. The question will be one of possibility, not legality.
 

dozer99

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#9
The total number of guns owned in the United States is not only unknown, it is beyond imagination. Since the late 1700's Americans have not only owned guns, they have stockpiled them. (BY THE MILLIONS) No other country in the history of the world has seen the general public own arms at the level that the USA has since the inception of our country. Even my one or two Liberal/Demo friends own a "gun or two" just because. After WWII most GI's came home with a Pistol or Rifle, Sailor's came home with what ever they could hide away in a sea-bag. All the way up until Desert Storm GI's would bring what they could home (then technology ruined it). Add that to the 10's of thousand's brought at Gun stores every year and the unknown amount brought and sold in other venues and we start to see that Admiral Yamamoto's quote that they will awaken a sleeping giant.

The silent majority is a culture of "leave me alone and I will leave you alone". Why is that important? Because I really feel that if "they" (TPTB) push the "heart of America" too far there will be a reckoning. A man backed into a corner, striking out, makes the 5 o'clock news. A community backed into a corner (Athens GA) has books written about them, but a Nation/People backed into a corner, changes History! I hope it will not come to that again.
 

Bigfoot

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#10
Ok, explain that to me logically. The US gov't makes guns illegal, so gun owners decide to flee to Mexico on foot into cartel territory. Do you realize how ludicrous that sounds? All of the gun owners I know plan to stay put and exercise their 2nd amendment rights.
Easy there BB28, let's think about this. It's always better to have more options than less options. Mobility adds options. FunnyMoney is making an important observation. The government has, over time, been making it harder and harder to travel unmolested. There is lots of historical precedence where tyrannical governments block people from crossing borders.

Mexico is a big country, relative control by the central government, the cartels, and local citizens varies considerably from place to place. Fox news isn't going to tell you that there are over a million Americans happily living there.

I'm not recommending that everyone go to Mexico. Everyone's circumstances are and will be different. Keep in mind, that just because someone is crossing into Mexico, doesn't mean Mexico has to be the final destination. Again, options. It's better to have more options.

The controlled TV media, absolutely loves to scare Americans with tales of foreign powers and foreigners. Remember what James Madison said, "If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy." Madison couldn't have been more right. Just look at what has happened since the US began "The War on Terror."

History clearly shows that people being persecuted benefit by being able to cross borders. This is equally, if not more so that case, in an armed conflict scenario. If you want me to, I can go into more specific examples of this.
 

Joe King

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#11
Mexico is a big country, relative control by the central government, the cartels, and local citizens varies considerably from place to place. Fox news isn't going to tell you that there are over a million Americans happily living there.
Yes, and virtually every single one of them are doing it legally and in accordance with Mexico's laws. Ie: they didn't just barge their way in and demand to to be accommodated.
.....and they sure as heck did not take their guns with them.
 

Thecrensh

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#12
a well-intentioned policy can be misused by people who have nefarious goals...look at the FISA and the Woods Procedure. Misused.
 

FunnyMoney

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#13
In a scenario where gun owners are being rounded up, whether something is legal is no longer the concern. The question will be one of possibility, not legality.
Exactly!

When the gov't fears the people, that is liberty. When the people fear the gov't, that is tyranny.

We have very GOOD reason to fear the gov't right now, their history of crimes against populations (including Americans in America) a VERY long one and is very well documented.
 

Joe King

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#14
First of all there are numerous ex-pats under the radar in Mex.
I didn't say there were none, just that the vast majority of the ex-pats living there are doing so legally.

There are also ways to legally bring certain arms into the country.
Of course guns can be smuggled into any country, but it's being done illegally.
....and what do you suppose happens to mr gringo who gets caught being in Mexico illegally and in possession of firearms? Mr gringo gets thrown into a hell-hole prison, that's what.

Are you in a hurry to go live there illegally with your guns? Good luck not eventually getting caught.


In a tyranny situation where the gov't decides to start experimenting on innocent people, something that they have done multiple times in the past and is well documented, then nobody is going to be going through the ports of entry my friend.
If that happens here, there's too many Americans with access to heavy equipment and would knock the wall down if necessary.
....and again, you act asthough there's plans for a complete wall (there ain't) and that the border with Canada is going to be walled off. Nope, that ain't gonna happen either. There's 1000's of miles of border you could walk back and forth across and there's no one there to say a word about it. Again, just don't get caught.


However, if there is a reason to run (see post above) then Americans are best to not be in a situation where the gov't can close off the exits.
In America, the People are the government. Only way to be that is to stay and fix it, not run away. Where would we be today if George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and all the rest of the Founding Fathers had skedaddled to other lands as soon things got a bit hot? Run away if you must. The patriots will stay and fix things so later on when it's safe again you can sneak back in.
 

bb28

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#15
Sure, if there is no reason to run then fine, stay.

However, if there is a reason to run (see post above) then Americans are best to not be in a situation where the gov't can close off the exits.
In a very pure sense, I actually agree with Ron Paul on this. I generally don't believe in borders. I support the free movement of people and goods. However, in that world, there is no free stuff. If you can't support yourself, you may end up dying. The original immigrants to this country understood that there was a big risk they were willing to take. Some of them did not make it for a number of reasons. The problem is that these two worlds are entirely incompatible and the world we have right now is much closer to socialism than anything else, which means new immigrants are just resource stealers.

The problem is that practically all of the people are coming for free resources, and even among those that are not, they can only stand to take further resources from those who are born here because of the excessive .gov regulation of the market and the money system and the degenerate state of the economy and society.

I think this points to why Ron Paul was not and never could be a success as a politician. I mean that as a sincere compliment to him that he would never lower himself to roll around in the mud with his contemporaries. Yet, in the morass we are in, something needs to be done.

bb
 

Bigfoot

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#17
In a very pure sense, I actually agree with Ron Paul on this. I generally don't believe in borders. I support the free movement of people and goods. However, in that world, there is no free stuff. If you can't support yourself, you may end up dying. The original immigrants to this country understood that there was a big risk they were willing to take. Some of them did not make it for a number of reasons. The problem is that these two worlds are entirely incompatible and the world we have right now is much closer to socialism than anything else, which means new immigrants are just resource stealers.
Great post, BB28. The problem is that the solution being foisted upon us is not one of reducing wealth redistribution and maximizing individual liberty for all. The solution being propagandized is to increase socialization while reducing freedom. Specifically speaking, instead of cutting forced healthcare and other programs, they are keeping those programs while building a highly expensive militarized zone inside the US.
 

Joe King

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#18
Ok, maybe there's more than I thought, but they're still basically doing it legally.
Ie: they didn't cross the border illegally and then dodge the authorities. In the vid, every single one of the people said they were on a tourist visa and the one guy mentioned just lying to them about having lost his visa. Ie: he's obviously in contact with Mexican immigration officials. What would happen if illegal immigrants started showing up at ICE saying they lost their visa? They'd be detained and eventually deported because we don't allow that.
....but Mexico does.

In other words, the gov allows it. Hence even if illegal in a dejure kind of way, it is legal in a defacto kind of way.
 

Bigfoot

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Ok, maybe there's more than I thought, but they're still basically doing it legally.
Ie: they didn't cross the border illegally and then dodge the authorities. In the vid, every single one of the people said they were on a tourist visa and the one guy mentioned just lying to them about having lost his visa. Ie: he's obviously in contact with Mexican immigration officials. What would happen if illegal immigrants started showing up at ICE saying they lost their visa? They'd be detained and eventually deported because we don't allow that.
Yes! This case is an example where the Mexican authorities are being more reasonable than the American authorities.
 

Joe King

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#20
Yes! This case is an example where the Mexican authorities are being more reasonable than the American authorities.
What I find unreasonable is to have laws that say one thing, but enforcement that says another. Why do they not change their laws to reflect what they actually do?

I'll tell you why. It's because if they ever want to enforce their laws against one person (or even all of them), they could suddenly do so at any time.
....and do any of those people have a cache of weapons there with them? That was what FunnyMoney was worried about. That he'd have to flee with his guns to Mexico by illegally entering the nation. (which none of the people in your vid did, btw)
 

Bigfoot

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What I find unreasonable is to have laws that say one thing, but enforcement that says another. Why do they not change their laws to reflect what they actually do?

I'll tell you why. It's because if they ever want to enforce their laws against one person (or even all of them), they could suddenly do so at any time.
That's absolutely right, and that's exactly how it works in the US, too.




....and do any of those people have a cache of weapons there with them? That was what FunnyMoney was worried about. That he'd have to flee with his guns to Mexico by illegally entering the nation. (which none of the people in your vid did, btw)
We don't know if they have weapons or not.
 

Joe King

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#22
We don't know if they have weapons or not.
Considering Mexico's gun laws, I doubt they're gonna let gringo hang out illegally with his ar-15


That's absolutely right, and that's exactly how it works in the US, too.
I understand what you are getting at, but in this case it's an apples/oranges comparison.

Ask yourself this. while we also do not always enforce every law as written in the books, if you present yourself to authorities and provide proof of having broken the law, they will almost always enforce that law.

For example, if an illegal immigrant presents himself to ice officials and demonstrates to them that he over stayed his visa, is it standard practice for them to not enforce the law? I believe they would take action.
 

Bigfoot

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#23
Considering Mexico's gun laws, I doubt they're gonna let gringo hang out illegally with his ar-15
There are a lot of variables there. For one thing the political situation in both the US and Mexico are fluid and ever changing. There are parts of Mexico currently, like Cheran, and Ayutla, where local people are well-known for illegally arming themselves. I don't think that it is that far fetched to think that a guy like FunnyMoney might not be able to reach an amiable status with such locals.

But, FunnyMoney might not have to bring his weapons out of the US. Perhaps he would store some in a particular location, cross the border, reach friendly territory and then obtain new weapons. Like I say, this is all fluid and in accordance with a dynamic situation.

Ask yourself this. while we also do not always enforce every law as written in the books, if you present yourself to authorities and provide proof of having broken the law, they will almost always enforce that law.

For example, if an illegal immigrant presents himself to ice officials and demonstrates to them that he over stayed his visa, is it standard practice for them to not enforce the law? I believe they would take action.
I don't consider that to be a good thing, I consider it to be the sign of a growing police state.
 
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Joe King

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#24
this time we live in, I'm not sure there is a single gov't that is actually creating or changing laws with the average citizen in mind. Everything that they do today has an alternative, secret agenda and is at the behest of secret, powerful outside forces.

So asking for that, is like asking a robber to change his behavior and steal less and do it less violently - you may think that works out, I do not.
The reason they don't change the law to reflect reality is so it can be selectively enforced.


No, you are wrong regarding Mexico.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on that.


In the USA and China and much of Europe and many other places where people are powerless and the gov't is powerful - yes, you would be correct.

However, Mexico has had 4 revolutions and is currently in a situation where the people are actually better armed and better organized and with better goals, more determined than is their army, their police, their secret police and others in their gov't organizations.
I agree completely.
Don't confuse the Mexican People with the cartels. The cartels are the ones that are heavily armed.