• "Spreading the ideas of freedom loving people on matters regarding metals, finance, politics, government and many other topics"

Atlas Shrugged, Freedom Shrugged

RebelYell

Name no longer reflects my changed worldview.
Silver Miner
Joined
Apr 2, 2010
Messages
668
Reaction score
760
Imagine if Trump had not got out ahead of the Covid bullshit? They would have for sure impeached him there and then and accused him of crimes against humanity. He did the only thing open to him. You can't fight both sides on an issue.
But you can. And if you believe it is right and true, then you should. Sometimes succeeding is less important than doing the right thing.
 
Last edited:

Goldhedge

Moderator
Site Mgr
Midas Supporter
GIM Hall Of Fame
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
59,010
Reaction score
118,793
Location
Rocky Mountains
And which charlatans are you an apostle for ?
As you complain about a speck in the eye of others when you have a board in your own.
When one points a finger he has THREE pointing back.
which has pretty much been my position from his/her first attempt to post....
 

789

Seeker
Seeker
Joined
Nov 1, 2013
Messages
147
Reaction score
80
I'm not sure whether I agree with you or I don't. One reason is that I'm not quite sure what it is you are criticizing and what it is you are advocating.
That about sums it up.
a) I have to speak slowly, and spell it out for the responders of this thread.

so here it is, slowly:
the title of this thread "Atlas shrugged, freedom shrugged" The people for whom I have to speak slowly, do not seem to have the capacity to comprehend that Atlas is NOT freedom. In the real world shrugging Atlas is the first step in the right direction.

The story compiled by Lisa is fiction, a figment of her detached-from-reality imagination. In the real world John Galt is Jay Gould, John Rockefeller, Curnelius Vanderbilt. In our days William Gates ---a composit of Rockefeller, Vanderbilt, Gould--- is John Galt. William learned from Rockefeller how to deal with competition, from Vanderbilt how to take advantage of other people's inventions, from Gould how to water his own stock.

In the real world you need a strong government to protect the general population from real-life Galts. In the real world John Galts take control of the government and do with it what real-world pillars of industry have done with the government.

In the real world, if on occasion, there is freedom, it generally wears a crown ---but this is way over the head of groupies, so stop risht now
 

Goldhedge

Moderator
Site Mgr
Midas Supporter
GIM Hall Of Fame
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
59,010
Reaction score
118,793
Location
Rocky Mountains
The people for whom I have to speak slowly, do not seem to have the capacity to comprehend that Atlas is NOT freedom.
Ad hominem is a rhetorical strategy where the speaker attacks the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person making an argument rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself. It's a cheap trick.

So now you understand what that is, hopefully you won't denigrate us for not comprehending what you are saying?

Now if you want to talk about making oil varnish from scratch I sure I could demean your understanding if that was my wont, but it is not, so I won't.

Your third paragraph and following actually makes a cogent point that we can discuss without guessing at your meaning.

I never made the association between John Galt and Jay Gould et al. How is Gould compared to Galt? Gould was a 'robber baron' and very rich. Did he leave a corrupt government as Galt did?
 

RebelYell

Name no longer reflects my changed worldview.
Silver Miner
Joined
Apr 2, 2010
Messages
668
Reaction score
760
That about sums it up.
a) I have to speak slowly, and spell it out for the responders of this thread.

so here it is, slowly:
the title of this thread "Atlas shrugged, freedom shrugged" The people for whom I have to speak slowly, do not seem to have the capacity to comprehend that Atlas is NOT freedom. In the real world shrugging Atlas is the first step in the right direction.

The story compiled by Lisa is fiction, a figment of her detached-from-reality imagination. In the real world John Galt is Jay Gould, John Rockefeller, Curnelius Vanderbilt. In our days William Gates ---a composit of Rockefeller, Vanderbilt, Gould--- is John Galt. William learned from Rockefeller how to deal with competition, from Vanderbilt how to take advantage of other people's inventions, from Gould how to water his own stock.

In the real world you need a strong government to protect the general population from real-life Galts. In the real world John Galts take control of the government and do with it what real-world pillars of industry have done with the government.

In the real world, if on occasion, there is freedom, it generally wears a crown ---but this is way over the head of groupies, so stop risht now

Four questions:

1. What do you mean by a "strong" government?

2. What do you mean by "freedom" which you appear to value, as opposed to "laissez-faire, libertarian" which you deride? Could you give an example or two which illustrate the difference?

3. Why do you believe that laissez-faire, libertarian values are to blame for corruption as opposed to the system of government itself (e.g. representative vs monarchy).

4. Why do you believe that a monarchy is incompatible with laissez-faire, libertarian values?
 
Last edited:

newmisty

Transcending the 5 Elements
Midas Member
Site Supporter ++
Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Messages
36,026
Reaction score
57,450
Location
Qmerica
That about sums it up.
a) I have to speak slowly, and spell it out for the responders of this thread.

so here it is, slowly:
the title of this thread "Atlas shrugged, freedom shrugged" The people for whom I have to speak slowly, do not seem to have the capacity to comprehend that Atlas is NOT freedom. In the real world shrugging Atlas is the first step in the right direction.

The story compiled by Lisa is fiction, a figment of her detached-from-reality imagination. In the real world John Galt is Jay Gould, John Rockefeller, Curnelius Vanderbilt. In our days William Gates ---a composit of Rockefeller, Vanderbilt, Gould--- is John Galt. William learned from Rockefeller how to deal with competition, from Vanderbilt how to take advantage of other people's inventions, from Gould how to water his own stock.

In the real world you need a strong government to protect the general population from real-life Galts. In the real world John Galts take control of the government and do with it what real-world pillars of industry have done with the government.

In the real world, if on occasion, there is freedom, it generally wears a crown ---but this is way over the head of groupies, so stop risht now
So are you actually typing slower? Cuz otherwise.....
 

RebelYell

Name no longer reflects my changed worldview.
Silver Miner
Joined
Apr 2, 2010
Messages
668
Reaction score
760
Four questions:

1. What do you mean by a "strong" government?

2. What do you mean by "freedom" which you appear to value, as opposed to "laissez-faire, libertarian" which you deride? Could you give an example or two which illustrate the difference?

3. Why do you believe that laissez-faire, libertarian values are to blame for corruption as opposed to the system of government itself (e.g. representative vs monarchy).

4. Why do you believe that a monarchy is incompatible with laissez-faire, libertarian values?
I'm still hoping you answer - I thought this might turn into an interesting discussion...
 

789

Seeker
Seeker
Joined
Nov 1, 2013
Messages
147
Reaction score
80
I'm still hoping you answer
Then why don't you answer ? Why don't any of you answer ?

How can _in the real world_ Atlas, laissez-faire lead to freedom ? Has it led to freedom ?


b) Lisa was a slut who chased after other people's husbands.
 

789

Seeker
Seeker
Joined
Nov 1, 2013
Messages
147
Reaction score
80
Ad hominem is a rhetorical
You posted an ode to the federal reserve, and government controlled-fostered economy. You either don't know you are doing, due to lack of knowledge, or merely trying to impress the ignorants.
 

RebelYell

Name no longer reflects my changed worldview.
Silver Miner
Joined
Apr 2, 2010
Messages
668
Reaction score
760
Then why don't you answer ? Why don't any of you answer ?

How can _in the real world_ Atlas, laissez-faire lead to freedom ? Has it led to freedom ?


b) Lisa was a slut who chased after other people's husbands.
I can't answer because I don't understand your terms. For example

1. I have no idea what you mean by a "strong" government. Do you mean a government that assumes control of a large share of society's resources and controls how they are allocated? Or do you mean one that employs a lot of coercive violence to ensure compliance with its dictates? Or do you mean something else?

2. I believe that laissez-faire is another word for freedom, or at least that subset of freedom which is part of economic activity. So when you say laissez faire is incompatible with freedom, that reads like a contradiction in terms to me. Therefore I asked you to define what you mean so I can better understand what you are saying.

My other questions are similarly aimed at understanding what it is you are trying to say.

Whether or not Ayn Rand was a slut, while relevant to a discussion of Ayn Rand's personal integrity, is irrelevant to the question of whether or not laissez-faire, libertarian ideas can produce good outcomes.
 

Goldhedge

Moderator
Site Mgr
Midas Supporter
GIM Hall Of Fame
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
59,010
Reaction score
118,793
Location
Rocky Mountains
Whether or not Ayn Rand was a slut, while relevant to a discussion of Ayn Rand's personal integrity, is irrelevant to the question of whether or not laissez-faire, libertarian ideas can produce good outcomes.
Which is exactly why this so-called 'discussion' is going nowhere.

It's as if we're talking with a high school student who has no understanding of logic.

Almost like talking to a slippery Democrat who keeps changing the discussion into a spiral argument that goes nowhere.

Apparently, he knows way more than you do, or I for that matter because he knows so much more than we do. It's a dodge. Hiding behind snippets of conversation that lead nowhere. "Pointless", as I said from the gitgo.

It's because we're stupid, I just know it!
 

RebelYell

Name no longer reflects my changed worldview.
Silver Miner
Joined
Apr 2, 2010
Messages
668
Reaction score
760
Which is exactly why this so-called 'discussion' is going nowhere.

It's as if we're talking with a high school student who has no understanding of logic.

Almost like talking to a slippery Democrat who keeps changing the discussion into a spiral argument that goes nowhere.

Apparently, he knows way more than you do, or I for that matter because he knows so much more than we do. It's a dodge. Hiding behind snippets of conversation that lead nowhere. "Pointless", as I said from the gitgo.

It's because we're stupid, I just know it!
Now who's making ad hominem comments? :-)

EDIT. Hope this comes across the right way - wasn't intended to be an attack but I find with myself that frustration can lead to throwing up my hands and saying "you're an idiot!". That frequently leads to a temporary sense of satisfaction for me, but rarely leads to a useful resolution of whatever discussion I'm having :-)
 

Goldhedge

Moderator
Site Mgr
Midas Supporter
GIM Hall Of Fame
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
59,010
Reaction score
118,793
Location
Rocky Mountains
Now who's making ad hominem comments? :-)
Tongue-in-cheek self flagellation...? Pointing out a known behavior, a cliche', of a certain sector of society...
 

789

Seeker
Seeker
Joined
Nov 1, 2013
Messages
147
Reaction score
80
We're living it...

What we are living is what the real-world Atlases brought to us. Present-day freedom is what Lisa and her ideas can bring us.
For freedom to start, shrugging Atlas would be the first step.

c) Midas member "dodgebydave" posts a picture which he imagines is the american creed. He obviously learned about america and its history from Rush Limbaugh. The real America was very different. He also posts a quote from Lisa Baum. But Lisa wrote fiction fantasy.
====================================
RebelYell said:
I'm still hoping you answer
So, where is your answer ? why don't you answer ?

============================
Goldhedge said:
slippery Democrat
So, why don't you answer ?

You post Lisa Slut and you post shady character Anton Chaitkin. It is obvious that you comprehend neither Lisa, nor Chaitkin. They were opposits.
 

RebelYell

Name no longer reflects my changed worldview.
Silver Miner
Joined
Apr 2, 2010
Messages
668
Reaction score
760
So, where is your answer ? why don't you answer ?
I did. I asked you some questions so I can better understand what you are saying. If you answer those questions, and clarify what you mean by your terms, then we can continue a meaningful discussion. Otherwise we can't because I do not understand exactly what you mean when you use the following terms:

"strong government"
"laissez faire"
"freedom".
 

789

Seeker
Seeker
Joined
Nov 1, 2013
Messages
147
Reaction score
80
I did. I asked you some questions so I can better understand what you are saying. If you answer those questions, and clarify what you mean by your terms, then we can continue a meaningful discussion. Otherwise we can't because I do not understand exactly what you mean when you use the following terms:

"strong government"
"laissez faire"
"freedom".
Don't ask me, answer. Or ask OP, who think Atlas is your freedom.
 

Goldhedge

Moderator
Site Mgr
Midas Supporter
GIM Hall Of Fame
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
59,010
Reaction score
118,793
Location
Rocky Mountains
So, why don't you answer ?
What was the question? It got lost in all the illogical nonsense that's been posted....
 

RebelYell

Name no longer reflects my changed worldview.
Silver Miner
Joined
Apr 2, 2010
Messages
668
Reaction score
760
What was the question? It got lost in all the illogical nonsense that's been posted....
I think I'm giving up on this thread.

At the beginning I thought 789 might have been open to a discussion which I actually thought might have been interesting because I think he does have a valid perspective in some respects.

But I've come to the conclusion that we're not going to get that discussion :-(.
 

Goldhedge

Moderator
Site Mgr
Midas Supporter
GIM Hall Of Fame
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
59,010
Reaction score
118,793
Location
Rocky Mountains
I think I'm giving up on this thread.

At the beginning I thought 789 might have been open to a discussion which I actually thought might have been interesting because I think he does have a valid perspective in some respects.

But I've come to the conclusion that we're not going to get that discussion :-(.
I came to that same conclusion a long time ago....
 

RebelYell

Name no longer reflects my changed worldview.
Silver Miner
Joined
Apr 2, 2010
Messages
668
Reaction score
760
Once again, why don't you discuss the views of slut Lisa and her groupies ? What are you afraid of ?
I love you man. But I'm a little bit afraid of you at the same time.
 

Scorpio

Hunter of Chin Li's Boo Hoo Flu
Founding Member
Board Elder
Site Mgr
Midas Supporter ++
Joined
Mar 25, 2010
Messages
33,740
Reaction score
50,369
Rebel asked you a question based on your commentary,
but you want to revert back to the OP and your opinion thereof without answering,

He had a fair question,
you stated freedom was not to be found, excepting with a crown attached,
that does beg some clarification

Otherwise we can't because I do not understand exactly what you mean when you use the following terms:

"strong government"
"laissez faire"
"freedom".


If you cannot answer those in context, then clearly you are just another troll

as for the 'he's a slut, she's a slut, everyones a slut' type commentary, it really is boorish behavior as you have yet to actually quantify your reasons for atlas or any of the rest,
 
Last edited:

Goldhedge

Moderator
Site Mgr
Midas Supporter
GIM Hall Of Fame
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
59,010
Reaction score
118,793
Location
Rocky Mountains
If you cannot answer those in context, then clearly you are just another troll
My thoughts exactly. Posting circular arguments that go nowhere. Word salad vomit. Pointless mental masturbation. I'm tired of the charade.
 

DodgebyDave

Metal Messiah
Midas Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2010
Messages
14,016
Reaction score
18,228
Typical of a communist
 

Scorpio

Hunter of Chin Li's Boo Hoo Flu
Founding Member
Board Elder
Site Mgr
Midas Supporter ++
Joined
Mar 25, 2010
Messages
33,740
Reaction score
50,369
naww, I give him some rope, as I too don't worship the griffin's or rands of the world,

read enough of it to appreciate only part of what they state,

just as with stuff we write, you might agree with some of it, and other times it pisses you off,
so you glean what works for you and move on,

my truth will be different from DD's or Hedge's or ? and that is just fine,

to me, one must come to accept that there is no 'truth', there are only our perceptions and beliefs that take us to 'our truth', in the singular
 

dozer99

Gold Member
Gold Chaser
Site Supporter ++
Joined
Feb 25, 2012
Messages
1,131
Reaction score
2,117
Location
State of Jefferson
There were some good points made in this thread. There were also some condescending remarks that made it that much more difficult to follow. By allowing personal feelings to dominate the direction of the conversation, the reader is constantly side tracked and the thesis is that much harder to attain. Derailing your own ideas with flippant remarks is counter productive and serves to lessen the impact of those ideas.
 

RebelYell

Name no longer reflects my changed worldview.
Silver Miner
Joined
Apr 2, 2010
Messages
668
Reaction score
760
naww, I give him some rope, as I too don't worship the griffin's or rands of the world,

read enough of it to appreciate only part of what they state,

just as with stuff we write, you might agree with some of it, and other times it pisses you off,
so you glean what works for you and move on,

my truth will be different from DD's or Hedge's or ? and that is just fine,

to me, one must come to accept that there is no 'truth', there are only our perceptions and beliefs that take us to 'our truth', in the singular
I agree with you on Rand. I do think there is an absolute truth though - just that it's very hard to find.
 

GOLDBRIX

'SUSH, MY NEW SAFE HOUSE"
Midas Member
Midas Supporter ++
Joined
Apr 4, 2010
Messages
18,099
Reaction score
27,200
I agree with you on Rand. I do think there is an absolute truth though - just that it's very hard to find.
As in Court there are THREE sides to each story, The defendant's, the Prosecution's and somewhere within those two lays the TRUTH.
And why one should always DYODD as MMV( Mile May Vary) per individual.
 

Goldhedge

Moderator
Site Mgr
Midas Supporter
GIM Hall Of Fame
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
59,010
Reaction score
118,793
Location
Rocky Mountains
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."

Eleanor Roosevelt
 

GOLDBRIX

'SUSH, MY NEW SAFE HOUSE"
Midas Member
Midas Supporter ++
Joined
Apr 4, 2010
Messages
18,099
Reaction score
27,200

789

Seeker
Seeker
Joined
Nov 1, 2013
Messages
147
Reaction score
80
JK Rowlins wrote fantasy-fiction, probably has a larger cult following than home-wrecker Lisa,
but no one tries to imply that her imaginarium is the real world, a the world views of gargoyles
should be applied to our everyday lives



One of the dogmas of the laissez-faire cult is open borders ---which can only result in no nation, no
country.

One of the three pillars of Marx-ism is internationalism.
Midas goldmember of this forum doesn't know this ---it is above his paygrade. Cult followers of Lisa
Rosenbaum don't want to consider this, they prefer to keep their heads in each others' rectum; in a
fantasy land where no-welfare and open border leads to milk & honey.
In the real world internationalism leads to destruction. Groupies of Lisa Rosenbaum don't want to
face the reality that home-wrecker Lisa was part of the gene-pool that is internationalist by nature
and really hates the concept of one nation, one country ---an evil tree can only produce evil fruits.

In 2021, in the real world, the laissez-faire libertarian Atlases are demonstrating to us what a
blessing open border and cultural enhancement is. Joe Biden is more of an Atlas than John Galt
himself; the leaders of the Democratic Party are the real vanguard of lousy-faire libertarianism, not
comic-relief Ron Paul.

Only a moron or a liar wouldn't see the mortal danger open borders present to a nation.


====================================

Another dogma of the laissez-faire Lisa cult is free-trade.
Once again, groupies are unwilling to see that in reality free-trade is slave-trade.
If we want to read and consider slave-trade theology, we don't need the low-grade writings of an alien, we have our own, the greatest (or at least the most eloquent) preacher of slave and free trade, the distinguished Representative, Senator, Secretary of State, Secretary of War, Vice-President, John Caldwell Calhoun, of South Carolina.


In the past 35 years we experienced a real life demonstration of the blessings of free-trade.
We used to have shoe factories, and quality shoes at reasonable prices. Now we no factories, we have
to buy cheap-chinese shoes at higher prices than in 1986.
We used to have clothing factories and quality garment ---not no more, these days we have free-trade
garment at higher prices.
The same goes for everything else, from cutlery to toasters, to bicycles, to rusty stainless steel, to
every other product that slave-trade brings us: low quality, high prices, unemployment.
30 years later the United States has reached the point of free-trade absurdity that American soldiers
want to go to war against China in made-in-China uniforms.

(Today I went to buy a bicycle tube, the man told me there is a shortage because the tubes are produced in China, and they are not coming. ---One day we may have to run around bare-foot & naked because the free-trade ships stop coming)

Yet, there are morons who tell us that free-trade is good for us ---no surprise that working people
didn't become followers of slut Lisa; not that Lisa would ever have associated with factory workers.

At least in Mr. Calhoun's days finished products came from England and France and Belgium and Germany
and Italy and Holland, and were high quality products.
Nonetheless, the fine gentlemen of the plantations should have understood that by definition a colony
is an area that ships out raw materials and buys finished products. There really was no need to go through the trouble of gaining independence from England if they wanted to remain an economic colony.


Present-day lousy-faire free-trade theologians should produce a study how life was in the 1950s and 1960s, when there was no free-trade, no in-migration, no open borders; when there was national industry and self-sufficiency ---just as the great Napoleon wanted it for his nation some years earlier. Wasn't it the 1950s that Trump voters hoped to return to ? when life was great, front-doors were not locked, car-keys were left in the ingnition ?

Village boys who hold John Kennedy in high esteem should always bear in mind that Kennedy only became President due to vote-fraud, just as Joe Biden, George Bush, William Clinton. It was the Kennedy gang that achieved the Marxist goal of opening up and eliminating the borders of the United States.

This same John Kennedy hated silver coin and loved bankers.