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Before our white brothers came to civilize us we had no jails.

BarnacleBob

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#1
“Before our white brothers came to civilize us we had no jails. Therefore we had no criminals. You can’t have criminals without a jail. We had no locks or keys, and so we had no thieves. If a man was so poor that he had no horse, tipi or blanket, someone gave him these things. We were to uncivilized to set much value on personal belongings. We wanted to have things only in order to give them away. We had no money, and therefore a man’s worth couldn’t be measured by it. We had no written law, no attorneys or politicians, therefore we couldn’t cheat. We really were in a bad way before the white men came, and I don’t know how we managed to get along without these basic things which, we are told, are absolutely necessary to make a civilized society.”

- RedHawk - Seeker Of Visions
Ancient of GOD

FB_IMG_1602949540103.jpg
 

the_shootist

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#2
“Before our white brothers came to civilize us we had no jails. Therefore we had no criminals. You can’t have criminals without a jail. We had no locks or keys, and so we had no thieves. If a man was so poor that he had no horse, tipi or blanket, someone gave him these things. We were to uncivilized to set much value on personal belongings. We wanted to have things only in order to give them away. We had no money, and therefore a man’s worth couldn’t be measured by it. We had no written law, no attorneys or politicians, therefore we couldn’t cheat. We really were in a bad way before the white men came, and I don’t know how we managed to get along without these basic things which, we are told, are absolutely necessary to make a civilized society.”

- RedHawk - Seeker Of Visions
Ancient of GOD

View attachment 184807
This is what real utopia looks like
 

oldgaranddad

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#3
Yeah, they just executed or banished their wrong doers. Banishment was just a slower form of execution since no other tribe would adopt them so everyone and everything became that person's enemy. Almost makes jail look compassionate. At least the prisoner would be allowed to rejoin society.

As Paul Harvey would say "Now you know the rest of the story."
 

Buck

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#4
hmmmmm

let's see: Medicine Man killed more than what should have been acceptable, why didn't MM fix more people?
Medicine Man didn't fix handicapped children, in fact, they were often discarded, left to die on their own as they would weaken the tribe
Justice Man didn't accept much criminality in the tribe, so, criminals were taken care of immediately, there was no reason to record any of the trial or execution, it was one-and-done, never to be spoken of again, dishonor and all that character stuff
Leader Man didn't accept any weakness of a man or he could be made to be a woman, to do the woman's roles and as a man, i understand what that means, if there was an example to be made of, for the tribe, the life-spirit would probably come at the expense of one of these men's lives, or arm or finger, etc...

and Women?...they were always women


yeah, the red man had it well...we often dramatize that which we don't really dwell on, like sleeping on the ground everynight, packing up the teepees to move for another 3 months, the women who'd die during child birth, that could be your woman and now you gotta fight someone else for their woman or you'll take an older child or you'll do without and as a man, doing without was not always acceptable either, and someone else died...

yeah, that life was simple...


come on man!
 

Ebie

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#5
Yeah, they just executed or banished their wrong doers. Banishment was just a slower form of execution since no other tribe would adopt them so everyone and everything became that person's enemy. Almost makes jail look compassionate. At least the prisoner would be allowed to rejoin society.

As Paul Harvey would say "Now you know the rest of the story."
Or tied them to a tree until they died.
They also had slavery, but, probably just banished the wrong doers, and, expected the next tribe to kill him or enslave him.
 

Buck

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#6
and they had no plumbing

the women today, they have it made because of all the indoor toilets available to them - which, btw, never seems to be enough in our stadiums and coliseums, there are always lines




LOL
 

Irons

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#7
Yeah, they just executed or banished their wrong doers. Banishment was just a slower form of execution since no other tribe would adopt them so everyone and everything became that person's enemy. Almost makes jail look compassionate. At least the prisoner would be allowed to rejoin society.

As Paul Harvey would say "Now you know the rest of the story."
More of the rest of the story.....................

Plains tribes made horse stealing an art. Several tribes yes you Apache & Iroquois didn't bother trying to hunt much or grow any food they just raided other tribes and took theirs. While they were doing that they raped, robbed, murdered and enslaved survivors.

When the white devils came they just added them to the list of people to raid. I could go on but why bother?


.
 

Ebie

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#8
One fascinating true thing:
They did not understand western military discipline.
Standing in line, marching, punishment for desertion, punishment (specific) for cowardice, saluting--made little sense to them
They avoided disciplining boys
 

Buck

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#9
it is a direct relation to where we are today and it's a fascinating look into what nurture does to humanity

Strength, Courage and Wisdom were once highly regarded, and in our current stories, there are often traits like this applied to the protagonist, however, often today, the protagonist in the story is actually someone who may not have been allowed to reach their 5th birthday, if they were raised in an Indian Tribe

weakness flourishes at the behest of man, both in honor of and in direct competition with that man's own survival

it's kinda weird

and today, it's like a complete 180 where weakness is to be championed and Strength, Courage and Wisdom will be found in soldiers who will be sent off to die fighting others of Strength, Courage and Wisdom so

We got nobody left, at the leadership level with much of any of that, and it's grown exponentially as our current POTUS has exposed for us...so, it appears i'm not absolutely correct, some of that still remains, not only in us, i'm not really referencing those at 'our level', but rather, at the level of those who would choose to lead us

and that level seems to have lots of financial backing, they have more 'sea shells' than we do, and they can out-trade us too...


anyways...point made...i think

:dog:
 

the_shootist

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#11
Yeah, they just executed or banished their wrong doers. Banishment was just a slower form of execution since no other tribe would adopt them so everyone and everything became that person's enemy. Almost makes jail look compassionate. At least the prisoner would be allowed to rejoin society.

As Paul Harvey would say "Now you know the rest of the story."
Wrong doers were shunned and eliminated from society. It beats supporting them, paying for their room, board, clothes and education as well as feeding them.

There will ALWAYS be wrong doers and there will always be a need to deal with them somehow.
 

the_shootist

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#12
Before the white man came we didn't have any nice warm shirts like the one I am wearing in the photo.
Sure they did....the buffalo, the sheep and the deer provided everything for them
 

Buck

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#13
Wrong doers were shunned and eliminated from society. It beats supporting them, paying for their room, board, clothes and education as well as feeding them.

There will ALWAYS be wrong doers and there will always be a need to deal with them somehow.
and there will always arise an unruly leader, one who should have been taken out at age 5...and the tribe suffers for years

well, all accept him and his buddies who will be the ones to wreck that tribe...that's not spoken about much, probably not recorded much either with all that Strength Courage and Wisdom stuff that they're violating


Might Makes Right in not always a correct response
 

EO 11110

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#14
that quote is hilarious. the demo is near the worst in the country -- criminality, sloth, etc
 

Buck

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#15
that quote is hilarious. the demo is near the worst in the country -- criminality, sloth, etc
How much, would you believe, comes from Watching Our Leadership Fail Us?

we've witnessed decades of no justice, criminality and sloth from our leadership, generally with zero justice being dished out, so, by 'example' how many sheep are just imitating what they see?
 

EO 11110

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#16
How much, would you believe, comes from Watching Our Leadership Fail Us?

we've witnessed decades of no justice, criminality and sloth from our leadership, generally with zero justice being dished out, so, by 'example' how many sheep are just imitating what they see?
my comparison was to the rest of society, which all live under the same 'leadership'

it's a failing demo. by choice
 

Irons

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#17
Before the white man came we didn't have any nice warm shirts like the one I am wearing in the photo.
Notice how quick they were to ditch bows and arrows once they got white man guns?


.:hunt::fire:
 

the_shootist

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#18
Notice how quick they were to ditch bows and arrows once they got white man guns?


.:hunt::fire:
They may have been primitive by the white man's standards...but they weren't stupid!
 
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Irons

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#19
They were primitive by the white man's standards...they weren't stupid!
The French and Indian War had a huge impact on early America so I studied it quite a bit. By the late 1700's old Indians were complaining none of the young braves knew how to make bows and arrows anymore!


.
 

917601

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#20
Or tied them to a tree until they died.
They also had slavery, but, probably just banished the wrong doers, and, expected the next tribe to kill him or enslave him.
While I was living in Texas I had the chance to learn about our native Americans which everyone loves to glorify. Fact is, they lived to war, steal, cheat and torture other tribes. The Apache, Comanche, and twenty other tribes were always killing and torturing the other tribes. There is a very good historical reason the white man of those days called them savages.
 

the_shootist

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#21
While I was living in Texas I had the chance to learn about our native Americans which everyone loves to glorify. Fact is, they lived to war, steal, cheat and torture other tribes. The Apache, Comanche, and twenty other tribes were always killing and torturing the other tribes. There is a very good historical reason the white man of those days called them savages.
Those were the tribes of evil. Not all native American tribes were evil. Back then the good and the evil gravitated toward the like minded and stayed within their own groups. What's bad about today is they are forced to co-habitate in places called cities.
 
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Bottom Feeder

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#22
We're all (me included) just pissin in the wind.
None of us has walked a mile in their moccasins.
Not one of us have lived under their rules.
All of us are just parroting what has been written in our books.

Read "Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee"
 

hoarder

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#23
Yeah, they just executed or banished their wrong doers. Banishment was just a slower form of execution since no other tribe would adopt them so everyone and everything became that person's enemy.
So true. because of the war-like culture of the tribes, you had to be in a tribe for protection. An outcast, renegade or small band of renegades had no territory of their own ad were at the mercy (which was scarce) of any larger band of Indians. There was little room for independence, you were born into tribal socialism out of necessity.
On the plus side, the violent members of a tribe were cannon fodder for wars with other tribes.
 

Cigarlover

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#24
Notice how quick they were to ditch bows and arrows once they got white man guns?


.:hunt::fire:
I read somewhere that they didn't want the guns until they could fire more than 1 shot at a time. The indians and especially the camnche could get off way more arrows than a single shot revolver or rifle.
 

Cigarlover

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#25
Most of them savages were pedophiles by todays standards but then again so were the white men.
 

hoarder

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#26
I read somewhere that they didn't want the guns until they could fire more than 1 shot at a time. The indians and especially the camnche could get off way more arrows than a single shot revolver or rifle.
You're thinking about buffalo hunting. Arrows were superior to muzzleloading rifles on horseback because they could nock another arrow much faster than reload a rifle. Horseback hunting was such that several buffalos were killed in a couple minutes. Even White men on the plains adopted bows and arrows. When cartridge rifles were introduced, rifles ruled the day. Longer range, better accuracy.
 

Buck

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#27
What's bad about today is they are forced to co-habitate in places called cities.
doesn't this sound kinda like putting tribes together under one flag, like the ME?

if someone stopped doing this, perhaps it might all work just a bit smoother, some might say better
 

stAGgering

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#28
Many indoctrinated western written history references and opinions here.
Consider the fact that the Chinese circumnavigated the globe 50 years before Columbus went slave searching.
"They have good teeth and will make good slaves" - Columbus
The Chinese delivered foreign viruses and decreased North American population by 90%.
Strange things happen to cultures when population declines wth such severity.

Just wait, you'll see.
 

hoarder

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#29
“Before our white brothers came to civilize us we had no jails. Therefore we had no criminals.
No laws no criminals, less laws less criminals. The idea has some merit.
We had no locks or keys, and so we had no thieves.
No bucket, no window to throw it out of, no thieves.
 

GOLDBRIX

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#30
“Before our white brothers came to civilize us we had no jails
No jails because they seen no redeeming values. Females of other tribes were made slaves. The female slave violate the tribe's rules she would be stoned to death by the tribe's females. Children were enslaved but brought up as members of the tribe or cast out at age. Men / Warriors were killed seldom captured. Those who were not killed would be bound and buried up to their necks close to insect mounds, or staked out "Spread Eagled " and left in the Sun. Some would be scalped as would Mountain men and white male settlers.
No such thing as the Noble Indian Savage. They just had a different way of handling their problems.
 

Strawboss

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#31
Ah...the natives...

By some accounts - they are people of great intellect - able to serve up gems of wisdom that deeply resonate...
By other accounts - they are savages of the worst sort...

When you think about it...isnt that pretty much the human condition? Some good...some bad...some a mix of both...
 

Irons

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#32
While I was living in Texas I had the chance to learn about our native Americans which everyone loves to glorify. Fact is, they lived to war, steal, cheat and torture other tribes. The Apache, Comanche, and twenty other tribes were always killing and torturing the other tribes. There is a very good historical reason the white man of those days called them savages.
aawinner3.gif


Great Lakes tribes were incredibly cruel and nasty with torture and even cannibalism being pretty common, torture especially. Several years ago I convinced my Dad to read Zane Grey's George Washington, Frontiersman book. He could not put it down once he started it and was bug eyed for a week after finishing it.

Asking if I thought it was accurate I replied Yep, here read these next and loaned him my Thunder in The East series. In a nutshell settling here was fucking brutal with tribal alliances constantly changing from one group to another, So Indians you ate with and traded with for the last decade now coming through in force and slaughtering every settler in the region.


https://www.amazon.com/George-Washington-Frontiersman-Zane-Grey/dp/0812579232

https://www.fantasticfiction.com/r/mike-roarke/thunder-in-east.htm

. . .. .
 

Irons

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#33
doesn't this sound kinda like putting tribes together under one flag, like the ME?

if someone stopped doing this, perhaps it might all work just a bit smoother, some might say better
Damn near happened, would have if this fella hadn't gotten himself killed.

Tecumseh
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Tecumseh


Chief of Tecumseh's Confederacy In office

1808 – October 5, 1813Preceded by TenskwatawaSucceeded by Position abolishedChief of the Shawnee In office
1789 – October 5, 1813Personal details Born March 1768
Likely in Oldtown (Old Chillicothe), Ohio Country[1][2][3]Died October 5, 1813 (aged 45)
Moravian of the Thames,

Upper Canada Cause of death Killed in action Resting place Unknown [note 1]Nationality Shawnee Parents Puckshinwa, Methoataske
Military service Allegiance Western Confederacy
Tecumseh's Confederacy Years of service 1783–1813 Rank Commander-in-chief (de facto) Battles/wars Northwest Indian War
Tecumseh's War
War of 1812
Tecumseh (/tɪˈkʌmsə, tɪˈkʌmsi/ ti-KUM-sə, ti-KUM-see; March 1768 – October 5, 1813) was a Shawnee leader who became the primary leader of a large Native American confederacy in the early 19th century.

Born in the Ohio Country (present-day Ohio), and growing up during the American Revolutionary War and the Northwest Indian War, Tecumseh was exposed to warfare and envisioned the establishment of an independent Native American nation east of the Mississippi River under British protection. He worked to recruit additional members to his tribal confederacy from the southern United States.[5]

Tecumseh was among the most celebrated Native American leaders in history and was known as a strong and eloquent orator who promoted tribal unity. He was also ambitious, willing to take risks, and make significant sacrifices to repel the settlers from Native American lands in the Old Northwest Territory. In 1808, with his brother Tenskwatawa ("He who opens the door"), Tecumseh founded the Native American village the European Americans called Prophetstown, north of present-day Lafayette, Indiana. Prophetstown grew into a large, multi-tribal community and a central point in Tecumseh's political and military alliance.

Tecumseh's confederation fought against the United States during Tecumseh's War, but he was unsuccessful in getting the U.S. government to rescind the Treaty of Fort Wayne (1809) and other land-cession treaties. In 1811, as he traveled south to recruit more allies, his brother Tenskwatawa defended Prophetstown against William Henry Harrison's army at the Battle of Tippecanoe, but the Native Americans retreated from the field and the European Americans unearthed graves and burned Prophetstown. Although Tecumseh remained the military leader of the pan-Native American confederation, his plan to enlarge the Native American alliance was never fulfilled.

Tecumseh and his confederacy continued to fight the United States after forming an alliance with Great Britain in the War of 1812. During the war, Tecumseh's confederacy helped in the capture of Fort Detroit. However, after U.S. naval forces took control of Lake Erie in 1813, the British and their Native American allies retreated into Upper Canada, where the European American forces engaged them at the Battle of the Thames on October 5, 1813, and Tecumseh was killed.

His death and the end of the war caused the pan-Native American alliance to collapse. Within a few years, the remaining tribal lands in the Old Northwest were ceded to the U.S. government and subsequently opened for new settlement and most of the Native Americans eventually moved west, across the Mississippi River. Since his death Tecumseh has become an iconic folk hero in American, Indigenous, and Canadian history.
 

Irons

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#34
Notice how quick they were to ditch bows and arrows once they got white man guns?

I read somewhere that they didn't want the guns until they could fire more than 1 shot at a time. The indians and especially the camnche could get off way more arrows than a single shot revolver or rifle.
You're thinking about buffalo hunting. Arrows were superior to muzzleloading rifles on horseback because they could nock another arrow much faster than reload a rifle. Horseback hunting was such that several buffalos were killed in a couple minutes. Even White men on the plains adopted bows and arrows. When cartridge rifles were introduced, rifles ruled the day. Longer range, better accuracy.
You are both correct, my mistake was grouping all Indians without regard to their region. Great Lakes Indians are not horse Indians.
Totally different lifestyles back then.




.