• Same story, different day...........year ie more of the same fiat floods the world
  • There are no markets
  • "Spreading the ideas of freedom loving people on matters regarding high finance, politics, constructionist Constitution, and mental masturbation of all types"

Billy Graham turning 100.

Son of Gloin

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#41
OR you can just talk to him your self. Look Bud, when we got here today and turned in some speeder just took out my boy's girlfriend. yeah big ass wreck... so do not tell me that you do not want to talk to some one who can give you information. Some people do not or cannot lie. So putting it off on some thing else or some way else is of no importance. Talk to the guy and get it from him.

You know what? You will most likely discover you have a lot in common....now I am going to take a shower as I put up a lot of hay today.....Yeah and this is after Me and this guy got hit at 55 or 60 while waiting for a train to cross the right of way.
You're getting respect and not giving any in return. Done..."Bud."
 

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#42
Look bud...I made my point which was from another. Now I have offered you the opportunity to communicate with that man. I do not see the problem at all. If I was offer a chance to discern something I had a question about then I am all ahead on it. I am not diss'ing you at all.

Step out of your box and talk to another who knows about this. Look, I do not follow the jim jones of the world. I do not rub rabbits feet and I dam sure do not go see a charlatan though I did go see the Richard Nixon tour when he was running, yeah he was not a crook either.

Look bud it is there for you to investigate, step out side and visit some one in real life who has an opposing observation.
 

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#43
As a Christian myself, I am somewhat skeptical of where Graham was really coming from. I'm sure he made a lot of people feel better. However in his come to Jesus sales pitch he should have offered some truth in advertising, if you want to be a real Christian and stay one you will suffer for the faith.
 

Son of Gloin

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As a Christian myself, I am somewhat skeptical of where Graham was really coming from. I'm sure he made a lot of people feel better. However in his come to Jesus sales pitch he should have offered some truth in advertising, if you want to be a real Christian and stay one you will suffer for the faith.
We have an enemy who will do all he can to make that so. God has blessed me, though and takes good care of me.
 

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#45
He used Gods name and Jesus name to make money. To himself.
 

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Son of Gloin,
I do not hold myself to be a man of the cloth.... far from it...thus I have no need or requirement to live as a pauper nor do I solicit donations of money in the name of Jesus and doing Gods work. BG however holds himself out there as a preacher..minister..revivalist... or whatever, and has a net worth of $25 million if the figure is accurate. Other than basic living expenses what would he need $25 million for (even if its real estate or other assets)? Does it reference in the bible or any other holy book from any religion that it is right or just to solicit money for the purposes expressed by all the ministries (think Orenstein, Hinn, Baker, Farwell..etch )not just those of BG?
 

Son of Gloin

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Son of Gloin,
I do not hold myself to be a man of the cloth.... far from it...thus I have no need or requirement to live as a pauper nor do I solicit donations of money in the name of Jesus and doing Gods work. BG however holds himself out there as a preacher..minister..revivalist... or whatever, and has a net worth of $25 million if the figure is accurate. Other than basic living expenses what would he need $25 million for (even if its real estate or other assets)? Does it reference in the bible or any other holy book from any religion that it is right or just to solicit money for the purposes expressed by all the ministries (think Orenstein, Hinn, Baker, Farwell..etch )not just those of BG?
Just a few questions Bushpilot. First, where does the idea come from that a guy like Billy Graham should live as a pauper? How is it that you excuse yourself from this requirement? What is your definition of basic living expenses?

It always seemed to me odd that other people would put limits on another person's financial means. I worked my butt off for many years of my life and earned a decent living. Up at 1:00am to get ready for work, working more days than not, till late in the afternoon, just because I cared about the service I was providing to my employer and our customers. So many days in sub-zero weather with blowing winds, freezing my extremities. Also, many days out in 90+degree farenheit temperatures with matching humidity, out in the driving rain in 30's temperatures. There's more, but you get the picture. Still, on occassion, someone would get wind of the kind of pay and benefits I was earning and express offense that I had so much. And believe me when I say, it wasn't an extraordinary amount of money and benefits for what I was providing. I earned every single penny. Also, I retired a couple months ago. Most people expressed appreciation for all my work and service, but there were people jealous that I was able to have a retirement. Really!? I've been working since I was 11 years old, with no breaks, except vacation weeks. Again, really!?

How much is Billy Graham allowed to have? What do you, Bushpilot, allow Billy Graham to have? What do you allow me to have? Or anybody else, for that matter? I said in a previous post that over the course of a multiple decade career The Billy Graham Crusade probably took in billions of dollars, the vast majority of which went to charity, helping people all over the world. Really, millions of people, all over the world. Yet, you begrudge the man a tiny percentage of those donations. I don't get it.

I'll be honest with you all. I still believe Billy Graham is a good man, who did God's work here on Earth, for most of his life. I'm going to let my words stand. I believe God is pleased with Billy Graham. My opinion, but I'm pretty sure of it. Trust Jesus Christ. Not rumour, or unfounded allegation. Not the Democrats or the Republicans. Certainly not Karl Marx, who would probably also say I got paid too much and Billy Graham got paid too much.
Much respect to all of you. My apologies if I got annoyed occaisionaly and I'm sure I did.
 

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#48
Billy Graham is equivalent to the reverend Dollar. There is no difference other than style and skin color. Now if the good reverend Dollar had a plane but needed a better one why he asks and did receive....so for reverend dollar his god did giveth to him and his god is his congregation that gaveth. Now this reverend Billy Graham doth ask'ith and his god does give'ith also But the good Reverend the Billy Graham asketh the board members of his ministries for his pay for fleecing the flock.

Kind of puts a twist on the words "The lamb That Was Slain" do it not.
 

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#49
Direct your complaints to Our God almighty. Mr Billy Graham is a sprit filled legend, and I have to ask, are you drinking?
A spirit filled legend? I don't think so. Sure he was a great preacher but he was no early church disciple. I under stand why his politics appeals to most here though, after all he is a Republican.

A secret thirteen-page letter written on April 15, 1969 by White House Chaplain Billy Graham to U.S. President Richard Nixon was released to the public by National Archives and Records Administration in April 1989 in which Graham had encouraged Nixon to utilize a military campaign to bomb dikes across North Vietnam should the Paris Peace Talks fail to reach a negotiated settlement of the U.S. war in Southeast Asia.

Graham developed his dike bombing strategy during an earlier business meeting in Bangkok with his evangelists assigned to Southern Vietnam.[94] Graham would later advocate to Nixon that this proposed escalation of the war in Southeast Asia was a plan that "could overnight destroy the economy of North Vietnam" by employing "tens of thousands of North Vietnamese defectors to bomb and invade the North."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Graham#Vietnam_War
 

Son of Gloin

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A spirit filled legend? I don't think so. Sure he was a great preacher but he was no early church disciple. I under stand why his politics appeals to most here though, after all he is a Republican.

A secret thirteen-page letter written on April 15, 1969 by White House Chaplain Billy Graham to U.S. President Richard Nixon was released to the public by National Archives and Records Administration in April 1989 in which Graham had encouraged Nixon to utilize a military campaign to bomb dikes across North Vietnam should the Paris Peace Talks fail to reach a negotiated settlement of the U.S. war in Southeast Asia.

Graham developed his dike bombing strategy during an earlier business meeting in Bangkok with his evangelists assigned to Southern Vietnam.[94] Graham would later advocate to Nixon that this proposed escalation of the war in Southeast Asia was a plan that "could overnight destroy the economy of North Vietnam" by employing "tens of thousands of North Vietnamese defectors to bomb and invade the North."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Graham#Vietnam_War
I'm no military strategist. I've never been in the military, but it looks like he was advocating destroying infrastructure, not people, to try to put an end to the war.
 

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Possibly so. But what business is it of preachers to get involved in military war strategy? Oh I'm not saying he was evil, not at all, but he certainly wasn't one to turn the other cheek. So to speak.
 

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Possibly so. But what business is it of preachers to get involved in military war strategy? Oh I'm not saying he was evil, not at all, but he certainly wasn't one to turn the other cheek. So to speak.
Good question, TomBaxter. I don't know, honestly. Speculating, he and his people were working in ministry to the people of South Vietnam. Perhaps he had grown to really care for those people and was afraid for them. In any case, the dike-bombing strategy seems to have been a bad idea. The Nixon administration is said to have determined that it would produce enormous casualties in N Vietnam, perhaps an outcome BG had not anticipated.

I continue to defend Reverend Graham, here because I'm convinced he's worthy of defense, not because he is perfect. You are right that BG is not evil and he also is no angel. He is human and subject to error, like us all. People bring up lone, second hand stories about his people absconding with funds from a tent revival. I've never heard anything like that before. Others are convinced he has too much money for a preacher, which is just a tiny fraction of the money his ministry took in over six or seven decades. He was close to several presidential administrations. Maybe he thought his opinion might help at times. Even erroniously.

It's reported that he despises communism. I'm right there with him on that. I think communism, along with mohammedanism is one of the two most destructive systems of ideology ever devised. Both have produced more pain, misery, destruction and death, I think, than all the other systems ever devised by human beings. Maybe BG thought by destroying N Vietnam's economy, he could also destroy communism there. At too much of a cost, in my opinion. But, it didn't happen.
 

Son of Gloin

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#53
View attachment 91948 Son Franklin Graham Reports on Rev. Billy Graham's Condition before 99th Birthday.

http://www.christianheadlines.com/b...-graham-s-condition-before-99th-birthday.html


Edit, he turns 99, not 100....let's pray he sees 100.
Man oh man, 917601! Wish a nice old guy a happy 99th birthday and look at what happens. All hell breaks loose. (toungue in cheek) Please hold off on that Adolph Hitler appreciation thread you were thinking about. It isn't going to go well.

No offense here to anybody. Good debate about Reverend Graham. I'm sure he forgives you.
 

917601

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#54
What I am going to say will offend a few. Biblical fact states when war must be waged, it must be decided upon with many advisors, be performed quickly, decisively, and overwhelmingly to spare suffering. As my father who served in Patton's army has said time and time again, their instructions were to "kill, capture, and destroy " as quickly as humanly possible to alleviate suffering. We defeated Hitler and saved the world as we knew it following those guidelines. I am relieved to know that Mr Graham was one of the many advisors advising Nixon in those turbulent times ( many advisors). History now shows President Nixon did not follow Graham's advice, if he had followed Biblical " war" guidelines, we would have won Vietnam as decisively as we did in WW2 and spared the twenty years plus of suffering for those under the Communist rule- initial murder in the streets, reeducation camps, starvation,....., My neighbor's are from the Vietnam boat refugee crisis and we have discussed the " war" more than once- her father was a South Vietnamese General, and those " left behind" are still suffering today.
 
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#55
What I am going to say will offend a few. Biblical fact states when war must be waged, it must be decided upon with many advisors, be performed quickly, decisively, and overwhelmingly to spare suffering.
Well we're all educated people here, so why don't you quote the verses out of the new testament that this is based on and we can make our own minds up. I know in the old testament a lot of killing and war went on under the sanction of God, but I don't recall any under the new covenant that today's christian leaders preach.

"The first amendment to the US Constitution states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
The Supreme Court first employed the term “separation of church and state” in 1879 as shorthand for the meaning of the First Amendment’s religion clauses
http://americanhistory.oxfordre.com...99329175.001.0001/acrefore-9780199329175-e-29
 

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Good question, TomBaxter. I don't know, honestly. Speculating, he and his people were working in ministry to the people of South Vietnam. Perhaps he had grown to really care for those people and was afraid for them. In any case, the dike-bombing strategy seems to have been a bad idea. The Nixon administration is said to have determined that it would produce enormous casualties in N Vietnam, perhaps an outcome BG had not anticipated.
I continue to defend Reverend Graham, here because I'm convinced he's worthy of defense, not because he is perfect. You are right that BG is not evil and he also is no angel. He is human and subject to error, like us all.
Yes I agree with you. He is/was also anti Israel too, or more specifically, anti-jewish, and was very outspoken on that. I would not hesitate to listen to the man's preaching, he's a good preacher, a good man at heart, and a much much more righteous man than I am. But no saint, as you say. I think it's inevitable that we look up to and admire these church leaders but I try to temper that with what I have read in the bible.

My mother was a big follower and financial supporter of kenneth copland, believing he was using her donations for the Lord's work. How that incorporates a $20 Million dollar private jet and a residence the size of Hotel I cannot say, but I certainly don't account him a saint either. They are all just men, some more spiritual than others.

PS, I don't begrudge copeland for wanting that jet. I'd love one too. I'm just not happy with him using church funds for it.



 

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Yes I agree with you. He is/was also anti Israel too, or more specifically, anti-jewish, and was very outspoken on that. I would not hesitate to listen to the man's preaching, he's a good preacher, a good man at heart, and a much much more righteous man than I am. But no saint, as you say. I think it's inevitable that we look up to and admire these church leaders but I try to temper that with what I have read in the bible.

My mother was a big follower and financial supporter of kenneth copland, believing he was using her donations for the Lord's work. How that incorporates a $20 Million dollar private jet and a residence the size of Hotel I cannot say, but I certainly don't account him a saint either. They are all just men, some more spiritual than others.

PS, I don't begrudge copeland for wanting that jet. I'd love one too. I'm just not happy with him using church funds for it.



Never liked that guy, Copeland. Of course, I don't like 98% of those types on tv.

Also, the only thing I've ever heard that BG said about Jews was that they had (and I'm paraphrasing here) a stranglehold on the media. That is just a plain old fact. Are there other things he's said?
 
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#58

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I think this comment from the article is particularly accurate.
the Washington journalist James D. Besser said the remarks should awaken Jews to the intense dislike for them among many evangelical Christians, except insofar as Jews are useful to the fulfillment of Christian apocalyptic prophecies.
I would say that is how I feel personally, and that will do me on this thread.
 

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He was very derogatory about them, but I don't hold that against him, I don't hold them in high esteem either. He had plenty of opportunities to call them out though but it seems he chose to pretend to be allied with them instead. He was a very political preacher, most are.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/17/u...ingering-anger-over-1972-remarks-on-jews.html
I don't necessarily expect a reply from you on this note. As far as the Jews are concerned in America, they are a destructive force insofar as their obvious stranglehold on all facets of the media are concerned. They hold an iron-clad glove of force over the ideological/philosophical content of all media, news and entertainment and allow absolutely no dissent or contrary opinion. This is certainly destructive of liberty, especially considering their monolithic leftist viewpoint.

As for banking, I don't think any comment is really necessary, except to say the words Federal Reserve. But, Graham's viewpoints on the Jewish American community might very well have been like mine. Dualistic and contradictory in nature. I respect them for all the positive contributions they have made to America, which are considerable, but the media and banking influences are intolerable.
 

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#61
I'm bumping this thread so the folks who might have something negative to post about Billy Graham would have a place to put it. Reverend Graham is gone now. Sadly, he didn't make it to his hundredth birthday, but he did live a long and fruitful life. Please allow those of us who admire and respect him to honor his memory. Thank you.

SOG
 
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Krag

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#62
The nation as well as the world is generally under serious judgment. The teachers will receive greater judgment as James said: "My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation." http://biblehub.com/james/3-1.htm

The Marshall Frady book covered him many years ago. https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-...ly-graham-a-parable-of-american-righteousnes/ http://classic.esquire.com/presidents-billy-graham/



Graham on Nixon:

HOW WELL I KNOW HIM 1955: “I disagree with those who say Mr. Nixon is not sincere. I believe him to be most sincere, and like President Eisenhower, he is a splendid church man .” 1959: Mr. Nixon is probably the best-trained man for President in American history. and he is certainly every inch a Christian gentleman.” 1964: “I know that he is a devout person and a man of high principles, with a profound philosophy of government.” 1968: “He has a great sense of moral integrity. I have never seen any indication of, or agreed with, the label that his enemies have given him of ‘Tricky Dick.’ In the years I’ve known him, he’s never given any indication of being tricky.” 1969: “I have known him for many years and, after many conversations, I am convinced his greatest concern is that America have a moral and spiritual renewal.” 1971: “I remember once I made a suggestion to him. He looked me in the eye and said, ‘Billy, that wouldn’t be moral.’ At that moment, he was the preacher and I was the sinner.” 1972: “I know the President as well as anyone outside his immediate family. I have known him since nineteen-fifty, and I have great confidence in his personal honesty. I voted for him because I know what he’s made of. “Kennedy was no intellectual-I mean, he was written up by the Eastern press as an intellectual because he agreed with the Eastern Establishment. But Nixon is a true intellectual. and he is a student, particularly a student of history. In that respect, he’s a DeGaulle type.” 1973: “I have known him a long time, and he has a very strong sense of integrity.” 1974: “What comes through in these tapes is not the man I have known for many years.” 1975: “He’s suffered a lot, but religiously he has grown.” 1976: “I understand how there’s a piece that’s come out about him at some dinner party not long ago, drinking and using profanity and all those things like that again. I haven’t seen it yet, but-. 1 don’t understand it. The last several times I’ve seen him, I thought he-I mean, I really had the feeling he’s gotten over all that. But this thing now that’s just come out, if it’s true-.” 1977: “I wasn’t really one of his confidants, either to have a game of golf or to sit down and have a serious discussion. I didn’t really move at the level with Nixon that the press thought J did.”

Also GHW Bush had Graham at his side during the launching of the Iraq war. He was complicit with the war crimes of Nixon and Bush.
 
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Son of Gloin

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#63
Just happened to think, also. My humblest apologies to Mr. 917601. I didn't ask if he minded my bumping his old thread for purposes he might not approve of. Very sorry, brother.
 

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#64
Uhhh, yeah, I have to call BS on this one, Mike. Wrong guy, here. Not only that, but you ought to be ashamed of yourself for popping on to this thread to spread a "second hand," slanderous allegation about this particular man. He's been around for many decades and these kind of stories have never been slung about Billy Graham. I'll assume yer "off yer meds," or on the sauce.
Open your eyes, the man was a crook.
 

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#65
Whoever Dr Graham was, GOD will judge him. Like He will each of us and I doubt many of us will get to that 100 mark or have much to show compared to a Billy Graham. Personal concelour and chaplain to 12 US Presidents.

Anyone knocking this man, you're knocking the God who sent him and have pretty much already stamped your bus pass for Hell. Adios and good riddance.

Mr Graham found out his reward yesterday and I doubt God bothered to read any of our tweets beforehand.
 

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#66
Whoever Dr Graham was, GOD will judge him. Like He will each of us and I doubt many of us will get to that 100 mark or have much to show compared to a Billy Graham. Personal concelour and chaplain to 12 US Presidents.

Anyone knocking this man, you're knocking the God who sent him and have pretty much already stamped your bus pass for Hell. Adios and good riddance.

Mr Graham found out his reward yesterday and I doubt God bothered to read any of our tweets beforehand.
The God of the bible was an advanced life form that came to earth in a ship. High tech, not God.
 

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#67
We've had a lot of solid Bible teachers in the West who have done a good job teaching people to be zealous in their faith. Doctrinally sound teachers like RC Sproul, CS Lewis, FF Bruce, did real service to believers of this fallen age. Then we have had action oriented ministries like those of David Wilkerson, World Challenge and Teen Challenge; the international charitable organizations like World Vision and Mercy Corps, that seek to help the people on day to day needs. Billy Graham wasn't all that bad he succeeded in terms of teaching basic Christian morality, but was too aligned with corrupt political leaders. The problems of this age are far more serious than the simplistic teachings Graham was part of. And you can be sure any hint of conspiracy theories caused all his family to run the other way.
 

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#68
This one is complicated. Billy Graham was a figure from before I was really looking at these topics, and I will admit I have not watched him on video at length, but all my research has indicated he was a pivotal figure in bringing the church back into Rome, thus largely undoing what Martin Luther accomplished. This is the falling away of the church as in Matthew 24, 2 Thess 2;3. The complicated issue in this, especially for non-believers is that he actually did some good. But God says there is none good but Christ and that our best works are but dirty rags. It also says not to let us do evil that good may come of it. God demands faith (obedience) of us that we will produce good fruit by His will, not for us to manufacture our own good works, lest any man should boast.

I can personally testify the word of God is powerful and has the power to save a sinner even in an apostate church.

Hebrews 4;12 says:
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

So, although Billy Graham did preach the gospel, some may have been saved by his work, but was he acting in faith or was he creating the above-mentioned apostate church by yoking with Rome? I would posit the latter, that the church is weaker and more spiritually disillusioned because of his works and I seriously doubt one could call Mr. Graham a brother. The current narrative is that he started out good and then joined an apostasy, but I even have my concerns about this.

Luke 6;26 says:
Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

Matthew 7;15 says:
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Galatians 5;1 says:
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

The clincher for me is video #6 which to me is the same as denying Christ on live television. There are people out there who are sinners who do not know Christ and if they die not knowing Christ, those people will go to hell. Period.

The following series documents these issues in great detail.






bb
 
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Krag

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#70
And maybe Billy Sunday was a forerunner of Graham. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Sunday Graham had a good voice, came from a good family background, started out as a farm worker. Christians are supposed to "shout it from the rooftops", responsibility is to deliver the Bible message, not on the results.
 

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#71
The real issue is that the church is supposed to be a spiritual light in a dark world. The church is supposed to be a voice of reason and morality and a beacon of hope for sinners. But, what happens when you let everyone into the church? When you let the people living openly in sin, then the church is no different from the world. It may be a celebration for the homosexuals, the liberals, the drug addicts and the people who hate God, but what is it for people who really need God and those who really need help? That is why it is so clear not to yoke with unbelievers, because when you do the church is no different than the liberal world.

bb
 

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