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Crypto, my take on it

Joe King

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#41
You are making an assumption with these statements which is an incorrect assumption.
For example, you said, "if you owned Euro's but only held Peso's, You'd have to buy Euro's," but what's missing is why do you need Euros? Is it because the thing you want to buy is only sold in Euros? There is the issue.
I think you mis-read my post. I said if you owe in Euros but only have Pesos, that you'd need to buy the Euros in order to pay what you owed.
Because I thought by you referring to the many different cryptos, that you thought they were somehow equally interchangeable with each other.
...and the price IMHO needs to rise if it ever ends up with widespread acceptance. With such a limited quantity of whole coins, for a large percent of the populace to be able to use them regularly, it would need to be in small fractions of a bitcoin for most purchases. That's why btc breaks down to 8 decimal places and the dollar only needs two decimal places.


Same thing would apply to paper bills if none of the frn's on the computer existed. Ie: there simply isn't enough of them to be able to handle all current transactions at their currant valuations. We'd need to add some zeros to the numbers on the bills. A bunch of 'em, actually.

Golds the same way. At gov prices of $42.22/ounce, there simply isn't enough ounces available in order to maintain the current level of spending in the economy. Ie: gold would need to be priced much higher to be able to be used for all transactions.



Let's walk through an example...
Currently, the seller of a cow is willing to take either Euros, FRNs, or Pesos for his cow. But you only have a few MoonCoins which are worth only a few cents. So youre MoonCoins need to go way up in value for you to buy the cow, or you will need to get a loan or work for a few more years to purchase more MoonCoins so you can afford to buy the other money which the cow owner wants in exchange for it. Or you could go to the cow owner and ask why not sell the cow in some other medium? The owner might say I need to buy feed for my other cows and feed sellers don't take those other mediums. The owner might say that the last time he took some obscure, not used much medium for a cow, by the time he went to the feed store the price of that medium had lost value vs. the value of feed, so he doesn't want to do that again.
This is the current situation we are in in today's modern world. If you only bought cows and if you could work for feed then you could take the feed directly to the owner to buy the cow. But that is not the modern way transactions are done.
Today, the un-backed, non-intrisic value mediums in use are already established. BTC is just another one to add to the list but worse. Why worse? Because it's value isn't based on it's use as a medium but on the speculation of its future use.

Cyrptos are actually a step backward away from honest money, but that is another topic, for another thread. Intrinsic value (where the intrinsic value is not solely based on the supply-demand need as a medium of exchange) is important for honest money to work. 5000 years of history has shown this and the Cyrptos will either live to take us into the "electronic based" tyranny stage or they will end up valued near zero, their only required value.
I understand where you are coming from and yes, I agree that if we had fully backed currencies, that it would be a really good thing.
...but with something like btc where there is no gov sanctioning its use, having it backed by some tangible good or commodity would only serve to create a target for one gov or another. Ie: they find a reason to seize the backing in order to shut it down. Kinda like how Liberty Dollar got creamed. They (gov) took all the silver that was backing it.

At least with crypto's, there's nothing to seize, and yet it still works.


If the cyrptos become big and adopted as money the same way as paper and electronic based FIAT is today then it will be because of one of the following reasons:
The gov'ts adopt it to use instead of , or in addition to their today's fiat money.
Sad, because the people will have had the power to ditch all gov fiat if they had chosen to. By most people shunning btc, the gov will have an open door to institute their own blockchain based currency. They'll call it money and make ya use.
...and you can be sure of one thing, and that is that our use of it will be public while their use of it will be kept private.


Or because the illusion of value among the masses turns to this crypto illusion instead of today's paper money illusion. But do not be conned, the cyrpto illusion as money is still an illusion. The blockchain and the fixed quantity do not change the illusion and still allow for the famous quote to be in full force: "He who controls the money (or in this case the methods of electronic exchange)... ... ... you know the rest.
Which is a good argument in favor of btc, as it lacks that central control that can be abused by those running it.
....and that, plus the algorithm it is based on, is what gives btc its real value. Every monetary system known to man has aways relied on the people having to just trust those charged with running it. That trust has always ended up being abused. Those running it always end up debasing the currency. With btc that cannot happen. It has built in trust. IMHO, that is btc's "intrinsic" value. Ie: that it is immune from manipulation by those running it.


What again was wrong with FRNs under my couch and Western Union? Oh, yeah, I remember "electronic money inside a distributed blockchain technology inside the cloud," so cool.
Nothing is wrong with them, they're just hard to use on the internet and every time I was able to jam some into the slot on the front of my computer, no one ever says they've received payment.
...and the change keeps breaking the blades on the cooling fan. Been through 5 of the things so far. lol



Take a look at this. It says it's about btc, but it's hardly mentioned for most of the vid. Covers some topics that are near and dear to our hearts here on GIM.

Totalitarian financial surveillance, banks laundering money, govs supporting terrorists and deciding who gets access to money and who doesn't.
21 short minutes.

 
Last edited:

FunnyMoney

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#42
...

it is immune from manipulation by those running it

....
That was what they said in 1913 too about the new central bank taking over the money then.

Intrinsic value, the ping of silver being different than the ping of clad. 5000 years of trust in a medium. "Do no harm, worse than..." video? Sorry, but I want my 21 minutes back. Cryptos are going to do plenty of harm and we might live to see the day or we might not. But throughout history that day has come.

My best guess is BTC at about 4 cents or a single slice of chewing gum, whatever that is by the end of next decade. Will it go to a million and then back to 4 cents, maybe, but my thinking is the illusion not backed by the elite and not by any military might is an illusion which goes away pretty soon.

JMHO, DYODD, I could be wrong. Prep at your own pace. Protect your own savings the way you see best and good luck, you may need it.
 

Joe King

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#43
That was what they said in 1913 too about the new central bank taking over the money then.
This example proves my point. Had the fed been under strict and unchangeable rules about how fast the quantity of money increased, we'd still have $20 gold pieces in our pockets. The reason we don't, is that people who proved to be untrustworthy were in charge of it.
...and we both agree that the trust placed in those people has been abused quite a bit. The algorithm prevents that because it's on a distributed network of participants who all have to be in agreement. It's impossible for anyone or any one group to suddenly decide to create 100,000,000 new bitcoins. Gotta make due wit what we got. If people need more, they have to bid the price up in order to get them. If there are too many relative to the need for them, the price bids down.
This is why I still say that the more of World gdp bitcoin can capture, the higher its price will need to be no matter what you choose to measure it in. Personally? I'd like to see something like btc become the thing all International trade is conducted in. As long as it's decentralized and non-gov controlled crypto. Nations could still have their own internal currency.


Intrinsic value, the ping of silver being different than the ping of clad. 5000 years of trust in a medium. "Do know harm" video? Sorry, but I want my 21 minutes back.
Sorry you didn't like it. Jist was to cut the elites off at the pass by adopting our own currency before they have time to develop their own that will be foisted upon us.


Cryptos are going to do plenty of harm and we might live to see the day or we might not. But throughout history that day has come.
Nothing so far has lasted forever.


My best guess is BTC at about 4 cents or a single slice of chewing gum, whatever that is by the end of next decade.
With a max of 21million bitcoins, I just don't see how very many transactions would be simultaneously possible at that low of a price. Four cents would give it a total value of about $800,000. Far too little for 300,000,000 million people to use.



Will it go to a million and then back to 4 cents, maybe, but my thinking is the illusion not backed by the elite and not by any military might is an illusion which goes away pretty soon.
I can see how you might think that, but with btc being decentralized and World wide, I just don't see how it could be shut down.
Do you remember napster, the file sharing service from nearly 20 years ago? It and others used to get sued and/or seized by the gov. So what happened was for decentralized file sharing services to be created. Now we have tor networks that can't be shutdown, because there's no where you can go kick a door down or shoot someone to stop it. Decentralized peer to peer monetary systems work the same way. Therefor, crypto's aren't being shutdown anytime soon without also taking the internet out with them.
...and if there is ever a time there is no more internet, then btc won't matter anyways, as it's whole point was to be money for the internet.
 

keef

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#44
Your ever notice how the best Crypto is always GREEN?



I don't think the Jadarite is gonna appreciate much. Doesn't fit that well in the wallet, either.
 

FunnyMoney

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#45
..... Now we have tor networks that can't be shutdown, because there's no where you can go kick a door down or shoot someone to stop it. Decentralized peer to peer monetary systems work the same way. Therefor, crypto's aren't being shutdown anytime soon without also taking the internet out with them.
...and if there is ever a time there is no more internet, then btc won't matter anyways, as it's whole point was to be money for the internet.
The Internet can be controlled, it is already controlled quite well in several nations, large and small.

Why just BTC for Internet money, why not a dozen or a hundred or so other cryptos for Internet money as well?

What is their Intrinsic value again within the system? The crypto money transfer system CAN operate efficiently regardless the exchange rate of BTC vs. USD.

BTC can go to 4 cents and still operate within it's transaction system. People don't really need to hold BTC a long time. They can change from USD into BTC in less than an hour and the merchant can collect the BTC and change it back into USD. Parking wealth in BTC is a speculation in something that can and probably will eventually lose more than 95% of it's current price in USD.
 

nickndfl

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#46
BTC is dumping now. I wish I could find my post from last week when I said it would not go to infinity while others were suggesting it was going to $1million.
 

solarion

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#47
BTC was way overdue for a correction. Frankly I thought it'd spend more time pushing through 10k, but it blew right through there and got close to 20k. It was 8150 a month ago and on a trajectory that was clearly unsustainable.
 

pay dirt

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#48
Why just BTC for Internet money, why not a dozen or a hundred or so other cryptos for Internet money as well?

What is their Intrinsic value again within the system? The crypto money transfer system CAN operate efficiently regardless the exchange rate of BTC vs. USD..
Here are 1374 more cryptos listed other than BTC.

https://coinmarketcap.com/all/views/all/
 

Shortstack

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#49
Big drop across the whole Crypto space over the past hour which is perfect timing for me as I am trying to build a position in litecoin. At $260 litecoin, my remaining 15k investment in Litecoin is down almost 20%, this at the current price of 260 per "coin". And it is cathartic. I have lost a few grand but feel fine, great even. Perhaps Litecoin will go to 15 a coin and silver will climb to $300 a Oz. That would be more like it. A bright spot in this whole Crypto thing is that a huge group of people are starting to get the idea of bypassing fiat and the banking sector. Hopefully Cyrpto crashes and burns, then this group will realize they had the right idea but the wrong safe haven, and will then perhaps discover the PM space.

Icing on the cake is that earlier today, I transferred 10 litecoins into the Crypterium website this afternoon - then used those coins, at the then valuation of $315 per coin, to purchase Cryperium ICO "tokens". This was about my cost basis, so I got 'full' value for my Litecoins on the Crypterium trade, and now have a tiny grubstake in the Crypterium ICO, for whatever that is worth, which may well be nothing. Will be interesting to see if the Crypto space bounces back before I wake up tomorrow, or be even lower.

Best part will be watching all those kids on YouTube and what they will say. Many of them have no idea what they are talking about, and now that I have a small position in the space, I can now enjoy them as they incessantly repeat their mantra of Litecoin is the silver to Bitcoin's Gold. For full disclosure, I almost pulled a few of my teeth out with a pair of pliers the day Bitcoin surpassed an Oz of gold.
 

Joe King

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#50
Why just BTC for Internet money, why not a dozen or a hundred or so other cryptos for Internet money as well?
Yea, all it takes is for people to use them.

What is their Intrinsic value again within the system?
An individual bitcoin doesn't really have intrinsic value, but the system taken as a whole has great value because of the trust that's built into it.

BTC can go to 4 cents and still operate within it's transaction system.
Not if it is to be used for a large part of World gdp it can't.

People don't really need to hold BTC a long time.
Same could be said for dollars, but hold them people do. Just because you don't think they need to be held doesn't mean people won't want to. Especially when the price of them goes up.

If you knew your dollars were doubling in value quickly, wouldn't you want to hold them if you could? Same applies to btc.


They can change from USD into BTC in less than an hour and the merchant can collect the BTC and change it back into USD. Parking wealth in BTC is a speculation in something that can and probably will eventually lose more than 95% of it's current price in USD.
The point is to eventually bypass the dollar completely. Your approach retains the dollar as preeminent currency. Why would you want that?

bypassing fiat and the banking sector.
 

pay dirt

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#51
IOTA is another crypto to look at. Microsoft, Fujitsu and Bosch are involved with it. Unlike most the other flyby nite cryptos this one has heavy hitters behind it. This market is 99% speculation but is more fun than a lottery ticket or playing slots.
 

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#52
Your ever notice how the best Crypto is always GREEN?



I don't think the Jadarite is gonna appreciate much. Doesn't fit that well in the wallet, either.

They put that chit in Slick-50 too. Right along with PTFE.....
Kryptonite and PTFE for the racers edge.

APMEX takes BTC for payment.
Lalalalalalala.....
 

solarion

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#55
It's the same story every single time. People complain about bitcoin "crashing" every month or two, then it recovers, picks up a few thousand more percent and we don't hear much else from those counties until there's another "crash" of a few dozen percentage points. Bitcoin is up 1291% YTD even after this healthy and necessary correction...that ain't much of a "crash".
 

keef

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#56
They put that chit in Slick-50 too. Right along with PTFE.....
Kryptonite and PTFE for the racers edge.
Careful. Too much Slick-50 and the engine goes PARABOLIC.
 

FunnyMoney

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#57
...
An individual bitcoin doesn't really have intrinsic value, but the system taken as a whole has great value because of the trust that's built into it.
The system as a medium of exchange or a transfer service may have value, but as I said before that value is completely decoupled from the value of the instrument or token being used within the system. BTC can go to 4 cents and the medium or transfer service can still operate fine, even with increasing portions of the GDP because it is a timing thing, increase the timing or play some other games with the system and it will function the same.


...
Not if it is to be used for a large part of World gdp it can't.
Again, see above post. But in terms of adoption rate, BTC only getting a large part of world GDP, maybe a tine portion for ALL cryptos combined, but a large portion - when pigs fly!


...
The point is to eventually bypass the dollar completely. Your approach retains the dollar as preeminent currency. Why would you want that?
You didn't see my point with that example. At some point the BTC must go into something of intrinsic value. Add in chickens and cows after the change into USD if you want. At some point BTC is only a medium and buyers and sellers want to change it into something else, whatever that something else is (USD to easily get back into grains or cars - or something else - but whatever it is, it is eventually something of intrinsic value or deemed as a storage of wealth).. If you want to make the case that cryptos are a storage of wealth, then that's an entirely different debate. But my take is they are NOT.

My take is that cryptos will eventually move toward the value of zero!
 

solarion

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#58
Bitcoin was 4 cents. Bitcoin was .04 cents at one point. People acting voluntarily...devoid of coercion chose to jack the exchange rate up to near 20k frns recently.

Sitting around wondering who if anyone is smarter than free markets isn't productive. I can save you a bunch of time here...you ain't smarter than free markets. None of us are. The markets will work this out if they're allowed to do what free markets do.

Perhaps instead of thinking bitcoin was oh so valuable, many of those people just thought that FRNs weren't worth crap. I can tell you str8 up for myself I've had no trouble dumping FRNs into cryptos, but when I've been offered cryptos in exchange for my PMs...I've said no freaking way each and every time.
 

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#62
My take is that cryptos will eventually move toward the value of zero!



The fear that’s kept me on the sidelines was the fear of the asset going to zero and while that still holds true for many of the 1200 coins available now, my gut feeling says the coins with big market caps will not be going to zero, they just have too much of a presence and acceptance already. Since I’ve been “in”, only a week or 2 I’ve swayed my opinion on this technology and see a huge future for it.
 

solarion

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#63
 

97guns

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#64
Here’s a fun little forecast spit out from Wikipedia:

A World Economic Forum report from September 2015 predicted that by 2025 ten percent of global GDP would be stored on blockchains technology.

2016 world GDP is 126 trillion
 

solarion

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#65
A World Economic Forum report from September 2015 predicted that by 2025 ten percent of global GDP would be stored on blockchains technology.
Gee that sounds like it might be a lot...

I've been told blockchain tech is nothing but a passing fad and would soon be forgotten. hmmm...
 

nickndfl

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#66
There should be an online casino that accepts BTC as payment. Talk about alpha risk factor.
 

solarion

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#67

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#68
Most of you already probably know this but Silver Art's take on Crypto is that it is a speculative investment and it will be treated as such.
 

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#69
Just got back from my side of the family's Christmas party. All my nephew's and nieces knew about the Crypto space. So I had my Godson set up a Coinbase account, then send him a litecoin for his Christmas present. My gut says these will not go to zero. So maybe I will allocate a bit more money into this, trying like heck to get my hands on XRP/Ripple, but my bitstamp account is still in pending status. The other places to purchase this are also taking forever to set up. This is all money I would have spent on collector grade 1911's but for me it's worth the risk
 

ZZZZZ

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#70

davycoppitt

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#71
Just opened a coinbase account. Looking to start to pop in and out of a few for the fun of it. Used the tinniest portion of my Canadian marijuana winnings to fund it.
 

solarion

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#72
Anybody here follow Mad Max Keiser? He was on the Bitcoin train 8 years ago when it was $1.00. His IQ must be 150 and he's a real raving lunatic but you can't laugh at such success.. Watch his show on RT . Here's his latest: "how bitcoin killed gold." (Stacey is his wife.)

https://www.rt.com/shows/keiser-report/413822-episode-max-keiser-1165/
Oh yeah. Dude is a nutbar, but entertaining.
http://www.goldismoney2.com/threads/max-keiser-episodes.47429/


Max was pretty tame for awhile here, but eventually his time release valium dosage wore thin.
 

FunnyMoney

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#75
Interesting video, pay dirt, thanks for posting.

Probably the best thing to do would be for GIM members to get together and come out with their own cryptocurrencies based on some kind of ideas we pull out of a hat... things like a better mouse trap to be designed in the future or a better way to send comments from your keyboard to the cigar lounge. Heck, I think we should have one for each member... I call dibs on FMCoin.
 

#48Fan

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#76
Interesting video, pay dirt, thanks for posting.

Probably the best thing to do would be for GIM members to get together and come out with their own cryptocurrencies based on some kind of ideas we pull out of a hat... things like a better mouse trap to be designed in the future or a better way to send comments from your keyboard to the cigar lounge. Heck, I think we should have one for each member... I call dibs on FMCoin.
Check it: https://smt.steem.io/
 

FunnyMoney

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#77
Thanks #48Fan! We're going to be rolling in the dough now. Reminds me of a song...