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Scorpio

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got a guy trying to pay me in crypt

$250 bones

so the guy purchases $250 of ether, but after fees is only 240.02 in his account ether value (9.98) fee

then he tries to transfer to me, where it is hit with another massive fee bringing the total actually arriving at destination down to 214.62

250-214.62 =35.38 = 14% total fees to accomplish the transaction

meaning, this whole idea of crypto is a bunch of hoo ha at those values,

ie worthless as everyone claims crypt to be eventually used for
 

Joe King

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so the guy purchases $250 of ether
If he owes you $250, he shoulda bought enough to cover the fees too.

Whose idea was it to pay in ether?
 

Scorpio

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ohh, and for reference,

it ended up being .06566702 ether at current price
and it has to rise to 3807 ether from its current 3282 before the transaction breaks even

or another way, ether has to rise by 16% from current before it breaks even, which is even greater than the fee total %
 

solarion

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Crazy fees. I've personally only used ETH as a currency once...to pre-pay for 5yrs of VPN service($72.88). The fee was $5.60 which at the time was 0.001718 ETH.

Though I've done thousands of BTC transactions and it's my go to, I wanted to try out the ETH network at a default tx fee. It seemed fine at the time(Early Dec 2021), but not any faster or slower than BTC. Yeah the fees are definitely higher though. In my case it was 10.7% of the total.

Generally I balk at bitcoin transaction fees > 0.5% with most working out to around 0.33%. It's definitely the more cost efficient network of the two. BTW, those fees are adjustable...all the way down to zero. Most people don't know that and just pay whatever their app sets as default.
 

Scorpio

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for reference,

paypal charges about 4.7% or so per 100

venmo has no fees for them to send it to you as far as I know, but will now test that out and see on a receive, then transfer it out to a account

meaning, there is absolutely nothing the legacy currencies to be scared of with crypto, as people will only be in it for the 'win it' but they damn sure aren't going to be using it for anything day to day

unless of course things change,

now remember, el salvador is working off the algorand platform for their new creation,
ether fees have been very high for some time, and they haven't been able to get those down, even with their maneuvers behind the scenes,

but I haven't tested others like Polygon/Solana/Algorand/etc. to see what the all in cost is for those.


Remember from the above, there was a normal purchase ether fee of 9.98 on the 250.00. Where the real jam came in was when it was transferred from a wallet at crypto.com to another on coinbase.com (2 major players in the space) They are the real thieves in the overall transaction.
 

solarion

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I've always found paypal to be WAY more expensive, but to each his/her own. It's that nasty flat fee + % structure that really sticks it to you.

Bitcoin fees I've typically paid are in the single digits(dollars) and in the tens of thousands of satoshis for transactions well over $6k. I got in the habit of snapping up silver bullion deals 200 ounces at a time when the price was pushed lower in the early morning hours...particularly early last year. So I've an embarrassing number of these transactions and none of them have fees greater than 0.15% with < 0.10% being typical.

I would caution you to not allow one bad experience to sour you on all crypto transactions. They're generally very efficient. Perhaps Ethereum is particularly expensive to transmit, I don't know. Bitcoin fares much better, though it's till not optimal for micro transactions that one wishes completed in a timely fashion.

1642129461193.png


Looks like the last time I bought anything "cheap" with bitcoin, it was $129.15 and the fee was $0.80 or 0.78%.

Seems the app has trouble with math...that works out to a .619% fee, but that's likely including the fee in the cost of the fee...who knows. Anyway the fees aren't typically very high.
 

#48Fan

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You picked the worst time to experiment with ETH. Network is clogged and the fees are ridiculous, to the point that I refuse to use it. There are sooo many better cryptos to transact in. Can't believe you didn't holler at one of us crypto guys first.
 

Thecrensh

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So crypto is just a way to tax EVERYTHING. That's where we're headed then...it won't be a tax, but a "fee" going to someone...and the politicians won't care what those fees are.
 

solarion

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The transaction fee goes to...uh miners. Sorry Scorp...that's what they call themselves. The fee is wrapped up into the block reward for a future block. Eventually those transaction fees will be expected to support...uh miners entirely when there are no new blocks...in 2140ish. I'm speaking to bitcoin here btw.

This is how transactions are processed...mining isn't merely to find a magic nonce and get a reward...it's what the network runs on. Transactions are stuffed into blocks and the fees associated with those transactions are included as incentive for the miner "finding" that block. That's why fees are measured in sats/byte natively...it's about how much data a block can hold. Higher fees on a transaction means miners pick up your transaction earlier...because they're incentivized to do so. If you're not in a hurry, simply cut the fees and it'll still be processed...just in a less timely fashion.
 

Usury

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Good thing you showed those banksters and didn’t pay their fees to take a check or o…..oh never mind.
 

solarion

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More importantly to me, the burden of caution is shifted back to the buyer...and away from the seller. Paypal has a NASTY habit of helping unsavory buyers to rob sellers by clawing back payments after the fact. That doesn't happen with cryptos. Western Union can also be used by unsavory characters to assist them at looting people.

All of this turns the notion of "buyer beware" upside down. Plus a whole lot of banking transaction fees are born by merchants and passed onto buyers that never see them. Card transactions are not cheap. Even $.10 more a gallon for the "convenience" of pay at the pump is roughly 2.5%.
 

Scorpio

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Can't believe you didn't holler at one of us crypto guys first.

Thanks 48

But it was a first hand experiment to really find out what the score was with ether,
as I am/was a believer in the ether ecosystem,
own chitcoin, but only on tulip theory, could give a whit about the pos

re the fee mgt discussion,
might be nice is that was a thing, but it isn't, with only the experienced maybe even knowing about it
yet, even then, I do expect a payment to happen reasonably, not hours/days/whatever later, and this one was not fast, only reasonable

re the herders, you call them miners
how they get paid,

that is all lovely and all, but the point being is they are way overpriced to what a transaction is worth,
that does not detract from the discussion that the fees are enormous and a complete waste of time and dough
on ether that is

interesting to note that Solarion shows chitcoin as being a drop in the bucket fee comparably
 

Joe King

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If he had, I woulda said then he should pay the fees.


running a test to check this whole crypto payment thing,
There's a learning curve to anything.


and it failed miserably
It may seem so, but just try to think of it as the cost of entry.


Or try thinking about it like this. If you had asked to be paid in ag or au, would you have expected to eat the premium, or expected him to eat it?
That's assuming that the person would have to purchase it in order to pay you with it, as seems to have been the case here.


To pay you $250 in ag for example, would cost around $40 in premiums. Give or take a little depending on where its purchased.

You're in the game, now just hold tight and see what happens.
 
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Nomis Elpmis

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Scorpio, if you (or anyone else) want to see how a real peer to peer electronic cash system works, download the 'Handcash' app for BSV to your smart phone from any app store and post your handle (format: $name) to this thread, I will send you (or anyone else) a small amount (>$1) of BSV. Then, if you want, you can test out sending pennies back to me or to other handles listed in this thread. Payments are instant and fees are a fraction of a cent. I mention pennies because micropayments like a penny are impossible on any other legacy system because of the fees. You can send 1 penny or $100 and the fee is a fraction of a penny. Web link: https://handcash.io/
 
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Scorpio

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There's a learning curve to anything.

yep, so we now know this particular idea doesn't work (convert someones payment to ether for long term holding)

Solarion states he is having decent results using chitcoin, and Nomis states there is another that can be tried (bsv which is a hard fork of chitcoin), and I will look into that

a couple of things we all picked up from this:
-it is possible to trim the fees by declaring a fee value
-2 guys have stated using the chitcoin side (2 versions of it) is much lower fees and can handle micro transactions

-the ether experiment did not work as it is cost prohibitive on micro transactions
-unresolved are all the other cryptos whether ether based, or other outside of the bitverse

-it would appear that you need to find a conversion transactional source, and once the transaction is completed, then move it to your parking spot, being defined as whatever crypto you want to set it down in.

been reading for over a year now re ether gas fees. Quite a few bellyaching about the excessively high gas fees. Then they did some stuff that was supposed to decrease those gas fees, and they did, but the decrease in those fees never materialized. This was a test for impact and whether or not it can be used time and again.

also, maybe someone else will be able to clarify the transfer fees if you accept in bitcoin or bitcoin SV, and want to convert it to a different platform for long term holding. And too, maybe someone can let us know of a micro transactional crypto that is outside of the bitverse.

then we have the other side of this, a eventual move back to USD, and what the exit fees to accomplish this would be from the transaction exit, your exchange holding it, then sending it off to its final destination or your bank.


There is a good reason for this,
Someone may need to pay you for a used car you sold them
Someone may need to pay you rent monthly
You sold them a chainsaw
etc.
 

Someone_else

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I have looked unsuccessfully for a cryptocurrency wallet that works with FreeBSD or Linux.
Preferably, it would be KDE friendly.
The only one I found turned out to be a node that would burn up gigabytes of storage and megabits of bandwidth.
 

Scorpio

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Nomis,

the reviews for that site are not positive,

and more importantly, there appears to be something going on with the process and who actually owns the wallet there, ie caution is warranted


T Kozak
January 7, 2022

1

Great stuff until I tried submitting report on a transaction. The report button literally doesn't do anything. Also. Not your keys not your crypto. Don't store it all here. It's almost impossible looking up transactions. Idk why they even have the option when it's all jumbled. But this app is simple...
Full Review
Marc Dunivan
September 7, 2021

92

Future Direction Is Troubling. This wallet seems to be moving toward vendor lock-in. Hiding a user's wallet address(es). Doesn't provide public/private keys either. So no portability between wallet apps. Beware. You will not control your BSV.
Mark Jahnz
January 15, 2020

6

Beta user and was impressed with what they had done especially with the connection with keyport which now seem defunct. After upgrade app requires you to give them your phone number. Unnessary and a privacy concern for for a wallet. Then they send you a code via SMS that the app rejects as invalid w...
 

Scorpio

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The only one I found turned out to be a node that would burn up gigabytes of storage and megabits of bandwidth.

sounds like a reverse herding app, where they use your hardware to play the game
 

ds_mustang

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The ETH main chain is not usable for payments anymore and might never be again. The ETH main chain is becoming more of a clearing point for large transactions and batched transactions from secondary chains. Trying to do payments on it is like buying a candy bar and then paying a commercial transaction fee. There are secondary Ethereum layers that can do payments but they aren't for beginners yet. If you want low fee transactions for small payments, use any of the many crypto that focus on that use case: Litecoin, Bitcoin Cash, Dogecoin, Terra, etc.

Maybe when they scale ETH with sharding upgrades it might get cheaper again, but somehow I doubt it, at least on the main ETH chain. Payments are not a high value transaction type and are being forced out of ETH by transactions with higher economic value. ETH generates something like 100x more cash than all the other blockchains combined. It's becoming a commercial chain, not a chain for ordinary Joe transactions.
 
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Buck

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Thanks Scorp, interesting reality check
 

gringott

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I have digits in a bank account. I buy something, online or not. I hand over the card, which is really a number designating my account. The card company hands over some digits to the seller, and I get my goods. Taxes are of course on top, and the fees are hidden from me. At no time did any physical "money" ever appear or change hands. Sounds like a digital currency to me.
 

Nomis Elpmis

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Trusting a digital 'wallet' with small amounts of digital funds isn't too risky. Large amounts need to be kept safe in an 'account' that you control the 'keys' to and then you replenish your wallet as needed. Same 'hygiene' as a 'meatspace' wallet. With milli-cent fees it gives you the freedom to 'shunt' funds around as needed without getting eaten up with fees.
 

Usury

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I have digits in a bank account. I buy something, online or not. I hand over the card, which is really a number designating my account. The card company hands over some digits to the seller, and I get my goods. Taxes are of course on top, and the fees are hidden from me. At no time did any physical "money" ever appear or change hands. Sounds like a digital currency to me.
Yep sure is…and I’d trust it more than any crypto in existence at this point.
 

Scorpio

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So, got to figurin' and trying a different way to skin the cat,

I got the guys debit card number, etc.

Entered that on my end at the exchange,

Then deposited from his account into mine by bank transfer,
Then turned around and used that to purchase crypto

The initial transfer was $250
I checked multiple different crypts, and they all had a 'fee' of 9.59, whether ether/chitcoin/sol/xlm, etc

there was no difference converting that digital entry into a crypt digital entry, they all had the same vig fee

so I purchased some pos crypt with the dough, and will let it lay there and sweat at a cost of 9.59 of the 250 or 3.84%

FYI
 

Goldhedge

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so I purchased some pos crypt with the dough, and will let it lay there and sweat at a cost of 9.59 of the 250 or 3.84%
That is a more reasonable fee.

What pos did you decide on?
 

Scorpio

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it doesn't matter, just swing at the pitch
 

specsaregood

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More importantly to me, the burden of caution is shifted back to the buyer...and away from the seller. Paypal has a NASTY habit of helping unsavory buyers to rob sellers by clawing back payments after the fact. That doesn't happen with cryptos. Western Union can also be used by unsavory characters to assist them at looting people.

All of this turns the notion of "buyer beware" upside down. Plus a whole lot of banking transaction fees are born by merchants and passed onto buyers that never see them. Card transactions are not cheap. Even $.10 more a gallon for the "convenience" of pay at the pump is roughly 2.5%.
This is the biggest benefit for the seller for cryptos and a big negative for the buyer. Although quite useful if you are in an industry that suffers from lots of chargebacks: adult novelties and content for example.
 

Voodoo

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This is where crypto lost me. Actually back during the Bitcoin split. Bitcoin cash was way more useful to actually use because the fees on Bitcoin had gotten large. They aren't stable because it fluctuates with the A.) Computing Ability of the Network and B.) How many people are sending transactions. But somehow even with low fees BCC lost to the high fee Bitcoin.
 

Scorpio

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I heard these cryptos are more a store of value.

yep,

just like my miner stocks,

for someone else that is, ie that store of value thingy you speak of
 

Lancers32

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yep,

just like my miner stocks,

for someone else that is, ie that store of value thingy you speak of
Yeah right. What I meant was that if I thought Bitcoin and Ethereum were both going a lot higher then I would pay for things in my home currency not cryptos.
 

Lancers32

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FWIW I don't buy the story.
 

ds_mustang

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This is where crypto lost me. Actually back during the Bitcoin split. Bitcoin cash was way more useful to actually use because the fees on Bitcoin had gotten large. They aren't stable because it fluctuates with the A.) Computing Ability of the Network and B.) How many people are sending transactions. But somehow even with low fees BCC lost to the high fee Bitcoin.
Same for me. Or at least that's where I gave up on Bitcoin. Luckily I moved into ETH which has done better than Bitcoin since that time.
 

Scorpio

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one thing we can remember in this though, is that the purchase of the crypt with different methods realized the same cost,
both when he did it and when I did it,

where we ran into the high cost levels, was when the crypt was sent from one to another,
that was the real added cost of doing the transaction,

which would then mean transferring crypts one to another is where a person will have to be more on the ball

the way the above comments are interpreted, is that doing so in different crypts runs into varying levels of cost,
we saw the ether transaction and how expensive that was, which of course must mean that is where the transactional fees or gas costs come into play
comments were made that chitcoin has low transaction fees, which would be a positive to that one
I have not tried others,

Maybe guys here have moved other crypts at different costs,
 

Voodoo

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I am looking to get into crypto here soon so I will need to do some research. I just know I will not be buying Bitcoins. This seems like a good start to understanding the fees.


Here is another link. I think that some of the people that have used these as money for 10 years prefer Bitcoin Cash, Dash, Monero, and some others.

Edit: forgot this for a minute. https://swapspace.co/blog/crypto-with-lowest-transaction-fees

  • Ethereum Classic: transaction fee is so low that starts from $0.00023
  • Bitcoin SV: has an average transaction fee starting from $0.0005
  • Bitcoin Gold: at the moment, the cheapest transaction fee for BTG coin is about $0.00063
  • Reddcoin: RDD's transaction fee is $0.00089
  • Vertcoin: 0.002 dollars fee in average
  • Bitcoin Cash: 0.0025 USD fee per transaction
  • Dash: exchange fee equals $0.0051
  • Litecoin's fee is $0.042
  • DOGE: while Doge itself costs less than a dollar, its transaction fee of $0.242 remains extremely low,
1643467171256.png
 
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Voodoo

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The biggest question here is why would people use PayPal, lol.
 

specsaregood

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The biggest question here is why would people use PayPal, lol.
Uhm, well the most obvious reason is that I can send money to family or friends in need with paypal at ZERO cost (no fees for either party), and they get it instantly.

From a merchant stand point it works, is easy too integrate, and is ubiquitous -- all your customers have access to it and are familiar with it. You can save transaction information and use it for future charges or set up subscription/automated payments. There are built in fraud prevention measures and more.

Crypto services (that I am familiar with) are nowhere near as full featured or reliable as paypals merchant services.
 

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I wouldn't discount the king: Bitcoin. Alts are good for high risk speculation at present, but remember most of them aren't going to make it. Even Eth is questionable right now, in my mind anyway. Bitcoin isn't going anywhere and is the safest play IMHO. And, it's half price right now from what it was a couple months ago. Buy a little at the same time each week/month and forget about it. Let me know how it goes in a few years.

ETA: I bought my daughter $50 in Bitcoin in 2019 for her birthday. It's worth much more today, even after this cyclical bear.
 

Scorpio

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paypal at ZERO cost (no fees for either party),

This would not be correct, as we have all seen during donate time,
the vig fees are there at paypal,

donate x, and only y makes it to the end