• "Spreading the ideas of freedom loving people on matters regarding high finance, politics, constructionist Constitution, and mental masturbation of all types"

Electric Car-Owners Shocked: New Study Confirms EVs Considerably Worse For Climate Than Diesel Cars

Goldhedge

Moderator
Site Mgr
Sr Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
41,788
Likes
65,962
Location
Rocky Mountains
#1
Electric Car-Owners Shocked: New Study Confirms EVs Considerably Worse For Climate Than Diesel Cars

by Tyler Durden
Mon, 04/22/2019 - 04:15


The Brussel Times reports that a new German study exposes how electric vehicles will hardly decrease CO2 emissions in Europe over the coming years, as the introduction of electric vehicles won't lead to a reduction in CO2 emissions from highway traffic.



According to the study directed by Christoph Buchal of the University of Cologne, published by the Ifo Institute in Munich last week, electric vehicles have "significantly higher CO2 emissions than diesel cars." That is due to the significant amount of energy used in the mining and processing of lithium, cobalt, and manganese, which are critical raw materials for the production of electric car batteries.



A battery pack for a Tesla Model 3 pollutes the climate with 11 to 15 tonnes of CO2. Each battery pack has a lifespan of approximately ten years and total mileage of 94,000, would mean 73 to 98 grams of CO2 per kilometer (116 to 156 grams of CO2 per mile), Buchal said. Add to this the CO2 emissions of the electricity from powerplants that power such vehicles, and the actual Tesla emissions could be between 156 to 180 grams of CO2 per kilometer (249 and 289 grams of CO2 per mile).



German researchers criticized the fact that EU legislation classifies electric cars as zero-emission cars; they call it a deception because electric cars, like the Model 3, with all the factors, included, produce more emissions than diesel vehicles by Mercedes.
They further wrote that the EU target of 59 grams of CO2 per kilometer by 2030 is "technically unrealistic."


The reality is, in addition to the CO2 emissions generated in mining the raw materials for the production of electric vehicles, all EU countries generate significant CO2 emissions from charging the vehicles’ batteries using dirty power plants.

For true emission reductions, researchers concluded the study by saying methane-powered gasoline engines or hydrogen motors could cut CO2 emissions by a third and possibly eliminate the need for diesel motors.

"Methane technology is ideal for the transition from natural gas vehicles with conventional engines to engines that will one day run on methane from CO2-free energy sources. This being the case, the German federal government should treat all technologies equally and promote hydrogen and methane solutions as well."​
So maybe Elon Musk's plan to save the world with electric cars is the biggest scam of our lifetime...
 

Buck

Gold Member
Gold Chaser
Site Supporter
Joined
Apr 13, 2011
Messages
6,641
Likes
6,291
#2
elon musk is but a charlatan
 

Silver

Gold Member
Gold Chaser
Site Supporter ++
Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Messages
5,156
Likes
7,946
#4
Bunch of Luddites. An electric vehicle with a solar array (in the right climate) is like having a gas station at your home that refills itself.

The tech needs some development and it is happening. Something like 500 electric car companies are starting up in China, and the big boys of Europe (Audi, Volks, BMW, MB) are going to all be electric car companies in a matter of years.

The petro business is going to try to propagandize and sabotage the emerging tech, if they can. Without vehicles running on hydrocarbons, the oil business will shrink to a much smaller footprint.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-...governments-are-clamoring-for-more-1531992601

https://www.businessinsider.com/r-b...ion-of-electric-cars-12-models-by-2025-2017-9

http://fortune.com/2017/07/05/volvo-electric-cars-hybrid-2019/
 
Last edited:

bb28

Silver Member
Silver Miner
Joined
Nov 5, 2011
Messages
1,560
Likes
1,388
Location
People's Republic of USSA
#6
The petro business is going to try to propagandize and sabotage the emerging tech, if they can. Without vehicles running on hydrocarbons, the oil business will shrink to a much smaller footprint.
Funny, you have the pot calling the kettle black. It's the petro car manufacturers that are paying subsidies to the electric producers as well as massive .gov subsidization. If electric was really market ready, why wouldn't private investors pick up the slack like they have done for literally everything else of value that has been produced?

bb
 

Buck

Gold Member
Gold Chaser
Site Supporter
Joined
Apr 13, 2011
Messages
6,641
Likes
6,291
#7
Electric Cars are JUNK for one reason only, besides the lies they fed us to explain their insanity at trying to produce a functional one, one that doesn't kill the owner or leave the owner on the side of the road:
one word,
BATTERY

until, if ever, battery technology improves, these cars are doomed to be a fad, a niche market for niche brained people

There is no other mobile power source than petroleum, pound for pound, that will work for our societies as currently arranged, no mass transit that will work for much of America or North America, nor any part of the Americas

Electric Cars, for the world, as arranged today, are a boon, waiting for the doggle with no brains and deep pockets, and are prone to follow fads

Junk sold on Lies, sure sounds like a fad to me
and these re-starting cars?
just wait till one morning, on a green light and the two lead cars don't restart

It's Going To Happen, will you be number 2 in line, or at position 3, maybe deep in at number 10, ...'cars to the left of me, curbs to the right - Here I Am, Stuck In The Zoo With You'

:dog:
 

utsteve

Site Supporter
Site Supporter
Seeker
Joined
Sep 15, 2013
Messages
34
Likes
68
#8
What % of electric cars are recharged by solar array only, that minuscule number can be subtracted from the total then?
 

FunnyMoney

Silver Member
Silver Miner
Joined
Apr 1, 2010
Messages
2,727
Likes
2,442
#9
...There is no other mobile power source than petroleum, pound for pound, that will work for our societies as currently arranged, no mass transit that will work for much of America or North America, nor any part of the Americas
The rest of your post makes sense, but I've seen and used a lot of mass transit that DOES work in many places throughout our nation.

Much of what does work is very over-crowded, especially at rush hour. They didn't lay enough parallel tracks and they didn't make the stations long enough - those are definitely some of the major problems right now.
 

engineear

Silver Member
Silver Miner
Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 11, 2011
Messages
2,012
Likes
2,413
Location
North of the Wall
#11
I have a 100% electric Spark, a hybrid Volt and a Land Rover. The gas I save you all and myself I put in the Rover. Once all the so-called pollution it takes to make a BEV, it doesn't make any by itself, that's the end of it...article doesn't mention that. Once the batteries are replaced they're recycled, no mention there either. I'm saving $100's a month not buying gas. I didn't buy them to save the planet, I bought them to save money. We both drive 8 miles a day to work and back, I drive the pregnant roller skate, she drives the Volt. Gas is going up again/still. You're truly blessed if you can afford to fill those beasts. Some need a big truck for work, for some, it replaces their penis, but I won't belittle you and say how you're fouling the air or blinding everyone at night cuz you've raised it 2 feet, changed the headlights to 5 million kelvan and your pea brain can't remember to turn the lights off or set in at a different angle. There are many 1st gen Volts over 100k, some over 300k with little degradation.

I could go on but, if you base your opinion on electrics on this article, you have been hoodwinked. They are not junk. What background does the author have about the topic? Seems awfully slanted, like the fake news does.

2 questions...
Why are so many countries buying gold by the ton?
Why are so many car companies coming out with electric cars, TRUCKS and suv's?

Maybe they know something we dont. But if we make decisions based on 1 article.....
 

bb28

Silver Member
Silver Miner
Joined
Nov 5, 2011
Messages
1,560
Likes
1,388
Location
People's Republic of USSA
#12
Why are so many car companies coming out with electric cars, TRUCKS and suv's?
Because the government is forcing them to. VW Dieselgate happened because the .gov standards were unreachable and VW decided to cheat. Bad news. One of their executives was even arrested for criminal behavior related to dieselgate. Consider that all of the bankers have been untouchable. The EPA and enviros have threatened raising fuel and emissions standards to the point where they are all but forced to make electric cars, and even then Tesla and associates are massively subsidized by tax credits, and state and federal money. I'll repeat my question -- if electric cars were such a great commercial opportunity, why is it that .gov needs to subsidize them and force them into hybrids and electrics?

bb
 

engineear

Silver Member
Silver Miner
Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 11, 2011
Messages
2,012
Likes
2,413
Location
North of the Wall
#14
I dont know why. No one is forcing Rivian to make electrics. Cease the rebates. Sink or swim. Dont have a problem with that. I was voicing my opinion on what i think is a positive side of electrics. It works fine in my little world.
 

Joe King

Gold Member
Gold Chaser
Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Messages
9,047
Likes
9,982
Location
Instant Gratification Land
#15
It works fine in my little world.
of course it does, but that's not what the article is about.

The issue is the pollution produced to get the car to the point you are with yours. Ie:at that point, the pollution was already emitted prior to you buying the car.

Also, how much pollution would there be if all cars were electric? That would require mining far more lithium, cobalt And manganese than we do now. OP says that's the bulk of the pollution.
 

tigerwillow1

Silver Member
Silver Miner
Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Messages
793
Likes
1,260
#16
Once the batteries are replaced they're recycled, no mention there either.
Everything I've read says the electric car batteries are not being recycled yet, and "everybody" is saying they will need to be recycled. There also seems to be a consensus that recycling many of the minerals is straightforward, except for the lithium itself, which costs substantially more to recycle than to mine.
 

engineear

Silver Member
Silver Miner
Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 11, 2011
Messages
2,012
Likes
2,413
Location
North of the Wall
#17
How much pollution is emitted? When the car is driven it doesn't pollute. If one had an ICE car for the same length of time as the electric, how much pollution does it produce? There was pollution made in the making of that car too. No getting around that both pollute but is one less or is it a wash? You'll find articles that boast one over the other.
All I'm saying is it's not all bad.
I'm not a tree hugger, or vegan, or animal rights activist, not a soy boy, don't have a man bun or man purse(satchel), I'm a leg man 1st, flat stomach, firm boobs, great face, shiny hair kinda guy, that likes electric cars. I bought used and didn't receive a rebate...including the bmw i3 lease. If it pollutes more than an ICE, fine, rip on me.

Now, what can we do when a volcano blows?
 

engineear

Silver Member
Silver Miner
Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 11, 2011
Messages
2,012
Likes
2,413
Location
North of the Wall
#18
Everything I've read says the electric car batteries are not being recycled yet, and "everybody" is saying they will need to be recycled. There also seems to be a consensus that recycling many of the minerals is straightforward, except for the lithium itself, which costs substantially more to recycle than to mine.
https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/230607-bmw-i3-batteries-getting-recycled-for-home-power-backup

https://cleantechnica.com/2017/10/30/bmw-group-officially-commissions-battery-storage-farm-leipzig/

https://www.engadget.com/2017/12/18...Z9RFhF3CA8Lt1MPQBiZvbelX20506Qsu-Y-JsUrMSVCRg

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1121609_volvo-reuses-bus-batteries-for-solar-storage

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1119405_bmw-sets-up-end-to-end-battery-recycling-in-europe

https://www.electrive.com/2018/05/19/vattenfall-power-storage-with-500-bmw-i3-batteries-goes-live/

https://www.pcmag.com/news/345486/bmw-wants-to-power-your-house-with-recycled-i3-batteries

https://www.mining.com/american-man...ling-technology-achieves-high-recovery-rates/

https://insideevs.com/news/334835/t...meter-with-no-noticeable-battery-degradation/

https://insideevs.com/news/328899/worlds-first-300000-mile-chevrolet-volt/

Chevy Volt Owner Zips Past 120,000 Miles
2 Year Old Chevy Volt – 146,000 Miles and Counting
Exclusive: World’s First Chevy Volt To 200,000 Miles
World’s Highest Mileage Volt: 250,000-Mile 2012 Chevrolet Volt
World’s First 300,000-Mile Chevrolet Volt
Erick Belmer Becomes World’s First Chevrolet Volt Owner To Rack Up 100,000 Electric Miles


Quite a long list of milestones there.

This latest one of 400,000 miles driven is impressive indeed. Belmer reports that he's yet to experience any noticeable battery degradation, despite the fact that the car is now 5-plus years old with nearly 150,000 electric miles driven.



https://ngtnews.com/2012-chevy-volt-maintains-100-battery-capacity-after-300000-miles
https://www.extremetech.com/extreme...old-chevy-volt-battery-into-a-whole-house-ups

Just a few things, some old, some new. I find it interesting that teams are racing, F1 type battery powered cars. They are quick, very quick.
Not sure how long Tesla will be around with so many companies bringing out BEV's...BMW, Audi, Jaguar, Hyundai, Toyota and these all have buildings for sales and warranty work, Tesla...not so much. The newest Ferrari has electric added to it...FERRARI! My die hard Ferrari friend is grief stricken I'm sure.
Gas powered cars heard the same shtick...won't last, keeping my horse. I googled "buggy whips" all that's there is for car antennas.
 

Scorpio

Скорпион
Founding Member
Board Elder
Site Mgr
Midas Supporter
Joined
Mar 25, 2010
Messages
28,193
Likes
36,089
#19
I would just ask for honesty in reporting both ways.
Don't have a problem with the electric concept as engineer states.
Things are quick and quiet, as noise pollution is a big thing also.

No different than global warming hoax.
BS on both sides of that also.
Reason can tell us that there is change going on. The battle enjoins at causation.

vehicle manufacturers are using all manner of gimmicks to achieve .gov mandated fuel mileage stds.
vehicles that shut off at stop lights, hard rubber tires, etc.

a guy was telling me yesterday that the tires for a tesla are very expensive and very different. Turns out they use a harder rubber compound.

living where I do and the climate, that type of messing with tires is not a positive. This then would result in massive safety issues as the tires cannot perform equally in the cold climate.

michelin apparently came out with a high gas mileage tire, and yes, expensive, and yes hard rubber. Repeat the winter performance argument.

I am asking the question re the tires as I haven't driven anything with those types of tires on it in the bad weather.
 

Joe King

Gold Member
Gold Chaser
Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Messages
9,047
Likes
9,982
Location
Instant Gratification Land
#20

Strawboss

Home Improvement Sales Trainee...
Gold Chaser
Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Messages
5,237
Likes
9,167
#21
Imho, that's got to be one of the dumbest things they've come up with yet.
Believe it or not - that feature alone will save maybe 3-5 mpg for a car...depending on how much city driving a person does. Idling a car (whether at a traffic light or in your driveway) is detrimental to your mpg...
 

Silver

Gold Member
Gold Chaser
Site Supporter ++
Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Messages
5,156
Likes
7,946
#22
Imho, that's got to be one of the dumbest things they've come up with yet.
I've got that 'eco' feature on a 2013 MB and don't like it. Too much wear on the starter.
 

Joe King

Gold Member
Gold Chaser
Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Messages
9,047
Likes
9,982
Location
Instant Gratification Land
#23
I've got that 'eco' feature on a 2013 MB and don't like it. Too much wear on the starter.
Supposedly they put beefier starters on the start/stop cars.

My issue with them is mostly just that it's annoying.
At the least, there needs to be a way to permantly disable the "feature".
....but they don't want that, as the only reason it was implemented was to eek out a mile more per gallon in the epa mileage test.
 

bb28

Silver Member
Silver Miner
Joined
Nov 5, 2011
Messages
1,560
Likes
1,388
Location
People's Republic of USSA
#24
Everything I've read says the electric car batteries are not being recycled yet, and "everybody" is saying they will need to be recycled. There also seems to be a consensus that recycling many of the minerals is straightforward, except for the lithium itself, which costs substantially more to recycle than to mine.
They actually are being recycled, the problem is that the recycled products are not good enough to run an electric car. The Tesla PowerWall is a good example. They are trying to make it a backup UPS for an entire house. I'll probably end up buying one of these packs (although not Tesla) for my off-grid house setup. I think there is eventually going to be a glut of these types of products on the market for cheap because there is no direct market for all of these batteries.

bb
 

Bigjon

Silver Member
Silver Miner
Sr Site Supporter
Joined
Apr 1, 2010
Messages
2,684
Likes
2,451
#25
Jim McCanney covers this inefficiency aspect of both solar and wind. Interestingly enough we let the people who's main business model is mega-generators based at central power plants decide the form of alternative energy used. Those huge 3 blade wind generators can't pay for themselves without govt subsidies and the same thing applies to the solar industry.

McCanney has his own solution he calls a wing generator, which uses many more light weight sail like wings. It is scalable up to megagenerator size. The mechanical rotary power is transferred to generators on the ground, making service a much easier task. The difference between the efficiency of a 3 bladed paddle and a wing are huge.

h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ozm1CoXzCg



JamesMcCanneyPAIDCAST_December_28_2017
This is an mp3 file; right click and save as: 56 minutes long.
 
Last edited:

tigerwillow1

Silver Member
Silver Miner
Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Messages
793
Likes
1,260
#26
Followed by 9 other links.

Thank you for these links. I did learn new things from them, but to nitpick the terminology, in the quoted link and most of the others, the term "recycled" means "reused" or "repurposed", and opposed to extracting the materials to keep a no-value, totally spent battery from going into a landfill. What I'm reading for the most part says the governments and car manufacturers say this extraction of the toxic raw materials must and will happen, but is not in place yet. Maybe the technology will be developed (sounds like it's not there yet). Maybe it will become economically viable (it's not now). Maybe new taxes and fees will subsidize the money-losing recycling (wouldn't be the first time that's happened). Or maybe the useless batteries will get stacked up like the nuclear waste is. With large corporations and governments spinning the issue, it has become political. Perhaps the best statement in the thread so far is "I would just ask for honesty in reporting both ways. ".

I've got nothing against electric cars and would be willing to own one. What I hate, to recycle another thread statement, is:
"No different than global warming hoax.
BS on both sides of that also. "
 

Joe King

Gold Member
Gold Chaser
Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Messages
9,047
Likes
9,982
Location
Instant Gratification Land
#28
Stop start system explained and why not to buy a car that has one. Why stop start technology can lower your car's engine and starter lifespan, car review with Scotty Kilmer. Do stop start systems really improve your gas mileage? How to disable the stop start system in your car. The pros and cons of owning a car with a stop start system. There are advantages to buying a car with stop start technology, but also a lot of downsides.