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Gold Timers Are Finally Throwing in the Towel

solarion

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Why do you keep saying things about me that aren't remotely true? You clearly know very little about me.
Uh, because I read what you type?
The fact it is an industrial metal makes it a poor choice for being money.
Which makes zero difference. It's money already and has been for thousands of years. Gold also is not the most optimal money as it's too soft, which is why it's so oft mixed with silver &/or copper. Platinum would be far more effective, but that shipped sailed long ago.
 

ds_mustang

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Which makes zero difference. It's money already and has been for thousands of years. Gold also is not the most optimal money as it's too soft, which is why it's so oft mixed with silver &/or copper. Platinum would be far more effective, but that shipped sailed long ago.
I explained in detail why it makes a difference. It harms industry, markets, people and is immoral. Want to reply to that actual argument or just continue ignoring it?
 

solarion

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Yes and then you make up shit about me with no relation to what I typed and no basis in reality.
LOL If you say so.

"Silver can be had at spot..." Well except all those fees and stuff...
"Look out for backwardation..." Well unless you find any. ...then ignore it.
"Premiums will come down" ...because that's what has always happened in the past.

It's like your obsession with ignoring inflation because Weiner told you to look out for deflation.
I explained in detail why it makes a difference. It harms industry, markets, people and is immoral. Want to reply to that actual argument or just continue ignoring it?
Reply to what? I don't even know what you're talking about. I know from experience though, that regardless what's said, you'll move the goalposts later and claim you were correct. What is this "it" that harms industry and is "immoral"? government? lol

"I'm not advocating in favor of counterparty risk" ...but leave your PMs with someone else anyway...it's cheaper.

Perhaps YOU should go back and read your own posts.
 

ds_mustang

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LOL If you say so.

"Silver can be had at spot..." Well except all those fees and stuff...
"Look out for backwardation..." Well unless you find any. ...then ignore it.
"Premiums will come down" ...because that's what has always happened in the past.

It's like your obsession with ignoring inflation because Weiner told you to look out for deflation.

Reply to what? I don't even know what you're talking about. I know from experience though, that regardless what's said, you'll move the goalposts later and claim you were correct.
I'll go back and copy it for you again. You claim to read what I write but apparently you don't.

It doesn't matter if silver has investment demand. The fact it is an industrial metal makes it a poor choice for being money. There are many problems with using industrial metals as money. Money is typically hoarded and it's bad (and immoral) to hoard a commodity that is needed by industry. It harms markets and it harms people: creates shortages, drives up prices, impacts production, destroys livelihoods, etc--it's damaging and immoral. Gold is mostly useless so it harms no industry, market, or person when it is hoarded. The same cannot be said of silver. I know fans of silver don't want to hear that but it's the truth.
 

solarion

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Wait, you think people using silver as money is "immoral" ...because it's also used in industry? So then why not say the same about the 7.5% of gold that's used in industry? Jeebus what commodity money do you like again?

Does it make ANY difference at all that silver was money thousands of years before electricity? Does it make any difference that governments made silver money?

"It hurts industry". I guess you're not worried about the silver mining industry though...which is being decimated by the ridiculously low prices. Low due to rampant sustained manipulation. ...but then I forget you think that's just paranoia and ignore all evidence to the contrary. ...like all the other facts you find inconvenient.
 

ds_mustang

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Wait, you think people using silver as money is "immoral" ...because it's also used in industry? So then why not say the same about the 7.5% of gold that's used in industry? Jeebus what commodity money do you like again?

Does it make ANY difference at all that silver was money thousands of years before electricity? Does it make any difference that governments made silver money?

"It hurts industry". I guess you're not worried about the silver mining industry though...which is being decimated by the ridiculously low prices.
You didn't actually respond to the argument I made. But yes, I believe it's immoral and problematic to use industrial metals as money for the reasons I stated. It's not stable either. Care to actually respond to the argument made?
 

solarion

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...and by argument you mean your opinion. Clearly.

I did respond btw, here allow me to quote myself to help you read it.
Wait, you think people using silver as money is "immoral" ...because it's also used in industry? So then why not say the same about the 7.5% of gold that's used in industry? Jeebus what commodity money do you like again?

Does it make ANY difference at all that silver was money thousands of years before electricity? Does it make any difference that governments made silver money?

"It hurts industry". I guess you're not worried about the silver mining industry though...which is being decimated by the ridiculously low prices. Low due to rampant sustained manipulation. ...but then I forget you think that's just paranoia and ignore all evidence to the contrary. ...like all the other facts you find inconvenient.
...and again. Gold gets a pass because? ...reasons I presume? What commodity that's NOT used in industry SHOULD be money to meet your high(yet inconsistent) moral standards?
 

solarion

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When the US mint stamps our silver, gold, & platinum coins with dollar denominations of 1, 50, and 100 respectively, is it then your contention that my using them or treating them as money is immoral? ...or is it only immoral if I use silver and/or platinum eagles as money...excluding gold eagles? ...which have silver and copper in them?

Where's the cutoff then where using a commodity that's also used in industry as money? If say 20% of a commodity is needed in industry is it immoral for me to use it as a store of value? How about 10%?

What a fascinating line of discussion...thanks so much for bringing it up. Keep in mind, I neither created the law requiring the mint to stamp out commodity money coins or creating them, but you're saying that my using them as a store of value is somehow immoral? ...unless it's gold?
 

ds_mustang

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...and by argument you mean your opinion. Clearly.

I did respond btw, here allow me to quote myself to help you read it.

...and again. Gold gets a pass because? ...reasons I presume? What commodity that's NOT used in industry SHOULD be money to meet your high(yet inconsistent) moral standards?
It's not an opinion, it's an argument backed up with explicit points that you're simply ignoring. Gold gets a pass because it's mostly useless and doesn't have a significant industrial footprint. Other metals can be used for the few things it's useful for.
 

solarion

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Gold gets a pass because it's mostly useless and doesn't have a significant industrial footprint.
Fascinating. I did inquire as to precisely the percentage of industrial demand required prior to mustang considering those that use said commodity as a store of value to be acting in an immoral way. I guess you missed every point I tried to raise about your opinion that you insist is an argument.

What if some legitimate industrial uses for gold were discovered in the future and industry demanded not 7.5%, but 55%, would it then become immoral to stack American gold eagles? ...in your opinion?

You ignored this as well:
Keep in mind, I neither created the law requiring the mint to stamp out commodity money coins or creating them, but you're saying that my using them as a store of value is somehow immoral?
Still immoral am I?

Question, if I said, fracking is immoral would that be opinion? ...to your mind?
 

ds_mustang

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Fascinating. I did inquire as to precisely the percentage of industrial demand required prior to mustang considering those that use said commodity as a store of value to be acting in an immoral way. I guess you missed every point I tried to raise about your opinion that you insist is an argument.

What if some legitimate industrial uses for gold were discovered in the future and industry demanded not 7.5%, but 55%, would it then become immoral to stack American gold eagles? ...in your opinion?

You ignored this as well:

Still immoral am I?

Question, if I said, fracking is immoral would that be opinion? ...to your mind?
There's nothing wrong with an individual stacking silver eagles. The point I'm making is about silver being a bad money. You (or me) stacking eagles is not an entire society using silver as money.
 

solarion

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There's nothing wrong with an individual stacking silver eagles. The point I'm making is about silver being a bad money. You (or me) stacking eagles is not an entire society using silver as money.
Ah, I thought it was about your opinion that silver as money is immoral or that my hording it is somehow bad and/or immoral. Thanks for clarifying.
It doesn't matter if silver has investment demand. The fact it is an industrial metal makes it a poor choice for being money. There are many problems with using industrial metals as money. Money is typically hoarded and it's bad (and immoral) to hoard a commodity that is needed by industry. It harms markets and it harms people: creates shortages, drives up prices, impacts production, destroys livelihoods, etc--it's damaging and immoral. Gold is mostly useless so it harms no industry, market, or person when it is hoarded. The same cannot be said of silver. I know fans of silver don't want to hear that but it's the truth.
...well now that's damn awkward...
 

ds_mustang

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Ah, I thought it was about your opinion that silver as money is immoral or that my hording it is somehow bad and/or immoral. Thanks for clarifying.

...well now that's damn awkward...
The argument gets more clear when you think about using a commodity like oil as a store of value or money instead of silver. Imagine banks, hedge funds, companies, large investors, etc. buying large amounts of oil to store away as a store of value. Is that a good thing? What does that do to the price and availability of oil that the entire world needs to run on? What if oil supply gets tight and price starts to spike? Now the entire world starts to pay higher and higher prices to get needed oil while financial agents sit hoarding it to make a monetary gain. The world would literally see global recessions like seen during the oil crisis of the 70's. Then when price spikes financial agents dishoard to collect big profits and price dumps causing volatility which further destabilizes markets trying to use oil. Bottom line is using a consumable commodity as a store of value causes shortages for the commodity, price volatility, and results in companies, markets and people suffering.

The hoarding of gold causes no such problems. Gold is unique among commodities in that it isn't consumed. The fact that the premier historical commodity money is mostly useless and isn't consumed isn't an accident, it's a key economic property of gold that makes it a good money. The hoarding of silver causes fewer problems than oil, as silver isn't as critical, but you can see the argument against industrial commodities being used as money or stores of value. When people start saying silver is superior to gold because it's more rare and used for more things, you know they don't understand the economics of good, stable money.

Btw, bitcoin is also useless and not consumed. And when people try to use the fact that it is useless as an argument against it being a good store of value I don't even try to correct them anymore.
 
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solarion

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It's fun that you think legitimate supply and demand mechanisms drive markets. That model was destroyed 60 years ago with the creation of the London gold pool. It's only been refined further with the crimex and LBMA scams. They trade paper derivatives back and forth all day and pretend as though that somehow represents a physical commodity market. ...talk about immoral.

In your example you specifically mention oil hoarding as "bad", but isn't that what a strategic oil reserve is? ...a hoarding of oil? Don't sovereign entities do this constantly? Opec? Presumably that's not "immoral" or "bad" in your opinion? What about when the US government hoarded silver? Was that "bad" or "immoral"? The largest hoarder of silver in history is JP Morgue...is that "bad" and/or "immoral" in your opinion?

Would it be fair to say that In your opinion an individual can only protect their wealth from the stealth inflation tax by hoarding gold and/or cryptos?
 

ds_mustang

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It's fun that you think legitimate supply and demand mechanisms drive markets. That model was destroyed 60 years ago with the creation of the London gold pool. It's only been refined further with the crimex and LBMA scams. They trade paper derivatives back and forth all day and pretend as though that somehow represents a physical commodity market. ...talk about immoral.

In your example you specifically mention oil hoarding as "bad", but isn't that what a strategic oil reserve is? ...a hoarding of oil? Don't sovereign entities do this constantly? Opec? Presumably that's not "immoral" or "bad" in your opinion? What about when the US government hoarded silver? Was that "bad" or "immoral"? The largest hoarder of silver in history is JP Morgue...is that "bad" and/or "immoral" in your opinion?

Would it be fair to say that In your opinion an individual can only protect their wealth from the stealth inflation tax by hoarding gold and/or cryptos?
I guess I'm an optimist who wishes/hopes supply and demand drove markets.

A strategic oil supply is a bit different in that it's not being created for monetary gain but specifically to help smooth out supply issues. But as I'm libertarian-leaning, I think governments should just stay out of the markets.

I think there's a few ways to protect wealth from inflation but gold and cryptos are top of my list. Silver is too small, volatile, and manipulated, so it's of less use. Right now gold doesn't seem to be responding to the public's inflation worries that well, especially compared to cryptos--I'm still deciding what I think about that.