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How to Think about Free Trade

BarnacleBob

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#1
A must watch....

 

madhu

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Very intelligent presentation, worth watching including the questions from the mature audience.
My 2 cents
There is a generational gap here between the old money and the current working class. The speaker may be correct in being alarmist about the future generation of educated uber drivers?

Why is the allure for the Chinese individual investor willingly buying up properties in California and or investing in markets in the us propping up the s and p were it not for the free trade? I think if you tell the individual investor where to park his money then we will be becoming like an autocratic China prior to the 70s. I have Chinese American friends who vouch for individual freedom over top down social prosperity. I am assuming the grass is green on the other side and I am assuming the regular Chinese envy western freedoms?

The theatre of freedom is that you let the individual choose, and the individual is happy and willing to loose everything pecuniary in the illusion of future. But when there is a big govt watching and telling you what is good for the individual in the long run, it is not productive for the economy or capital generation. I think the state knows all these too well and just tinkers with the freedoms as they and their crony czars see fit.


I guess if govt is going to be spending 10-20 billion dollars in constructing a silicon wafer industry, may be they could buy a whole special economic zone outside Shenzhen with may be 2 chip factories to boot. Is this guy a RINO like trump advocating govt spending like democrats?

Yes lots of questions for this society and its leadership who are fragmented about stupid Russian fairy tales. No easy answers.
 
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TAEZZAR

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#3
That takes too much of my internet "allocation" by Dishit, I will have to watch it tomorrow am, during my "free" zone.

BTW: why do these guys need an hour plus to say something?
Will I need to listen to a bunch of filler to get the story?
 

hoarder

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#4
I'm not going to spend an hour watching that just to see if the guy is a globalist one worlder trying to obscure the important distinction between national and international free trade.
 

madhu

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#5
I had not heard about the plaza accord before which might have lead to the October 87 stock market crash and then subsequent louvre accord.

https://www.nytimes.com/1987/10/27/opinion/a-lower-dollar-vs-recession.html

There is no substitute to reading and coming to your own educated opinion. The problem with politicians is that most are uneducated except a few like Ron Rand paul who can give valid reasons and challenge official dogma. If this is the status in the most well developed country, only God can save countries like India.

If the economy is not doing better as per the view of the common man, republicans are at risk of losing power.

If Americans cannot afford or not paid a decent wage to buy American made products where is the question of Japanese or Chinese being to be able to afford things made in America? If the dollar is so expensive AKA strong dollar policy then the rest of the world cannot afford the deflation foistered on them by interventions in the currency markets.


It's a slow grind downward for the value of the dollar and inflation to eat of all the value of our labor. Rest is wishful thinking or massaged statistics for the politicians to get elected and plunder their colonies

Oh I forgot the crown and its independence trick the plunder is on its own plantation. it's the same crown or its other subsidiaries DBA that own everything in prison planet. Any politician of stature will never replicate the Chinese industries in their own country because that will cut into the profits of the crime syndicate. My 2 cents

BB can shed more light on that as he is a very good teacher
 
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Libertaurum

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I'm not going to spend an hour watching that just to see if the guy is a globalist one worlder trying to obscure the important distinction between national and international free trade.
Howdy hoarder!

Don't worry, this guy doesn't seem to support free trade or private property at all. Instead, he apparently supports nationalist socialism and the use of collectivist force to prevent individuals from making their own decisions. You know, for the common good.

You'll probably be a big fan.

Oh, and btw, what's with the avatar? Do you now believe he too is, as you say, "crypto"?
I would have thought you'd be a fan for sure...
 
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madhu

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#7
Hello stranger lib,
Happy to see you resurface from your long hibernation
Nationalistic socialism= ends in Hitler type fascism
Had to retread your post re crypto, lol
 
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Libertaurum

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#8
Hey there, madhu, and thanks!
And you're right about where nationalistic socialism leads... And when it becomes contagious, that leads to war.
I doubt there's many still around who remember how things went the last time the world went down the path of nationalism, isolationism and war.
 

Bigfoot

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I think if you tell the individual investor where to park his money then we will be becoming like an autocratic China prior to the 70s.
Yes, you are totally correct. Government / central bank authoritarian regulations and noncompetitive interest rates are a huge threat to the prosperity of the individual. Freedom, including the freedom to trade with people in other countries isn't a threat to anyone except tyrants and monopolies.
 

Alton

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#10
Free trade IS an ideology held up against the forces of the Marxist left. The problem is that free trade was NEVER defined or implemented in a practical way. Under American capitalism free trade means SELL EVERYTHING for max profit NOW. No consideration for the consequences of that action. No consideration for the future. No consideration for value of items and technologies sold. If it ain't nailed down...SELL IT!

So we sold missile technology to China for bamboo floors and placemats! WTF!?! Where's the value? Where's the future? We moved our factories to Mexico, and for what? Huaraches with soles made from our discarded steel belted radials? Discounted sombreros? Plus we're still getting all these illegal aliens who are too stupid to realize that all our jobs are now in the country they left?

Meanwhile, back in America, our "capitalists" do NOT make the required investments in capital. Where's "Zuckerburg Industries"? How about a "Gates Electronics"? You would think Buffett could rival jolly Green Giant by now! At least he could improve Omaha Steaks. But no, these guys and many, many more simply shuffle dollars around in markets getting tiny returns on each dollar which is profitable for them only because they each have so many dollars doing nothing else.

But wait! There's more! Our government does NOTHING to give incentive to invest/re-invest in industry. The costs are made to high by endless inflation, deep oceans of bureaucratic red tape and regulations along with corrupt lawmakers who will use both bureaucracy and new laws to ruin you unless you feed their corruption. Yes! A marvelous way to keep America strong! Yeah, and the moon really is made of green cheese too!

So, where is the value of the trade considered? How many Mexican jumping beans does it take to to have an American factory? How many bamboo floors does it take to buy American missile technology? Just how do you value the technology, the guidance systems, the chips, the programming to guide missiles to their targets? I really do not see where all the bamboo in the world for 50 years would be enough to buy that technology. But apparently US presidents and congresses were smart enough to figure that out. Think of ALL the American properties and corporations the Japanese bought up back in the 80's. Was it worth it? Should ANY American real estate be sold to ANY foreign entity? Isn't it enough that we allow their embassies to be considered foreign soil? Should foreigners be allowed to own any American coal or oil reserves? Should foreigners own American roads? How are these or anything like these to be considered as free trade?

Free trade really is so much more than the use of tariffs. There are NO rights to buy or sell in ANY market anywhere. It is ever and always a matter of courtesy and or privilege granted by whoever owns or controls the market. A country as defined by it's claimed and defended borders grants courtesy and privilege to participate in certain markets within the borders of that country then there is further courtesy and privilege that must be granted by those who own and control the specific markets within those countries. You just do NOT have any kind of right to stroll into Russia and start selling guns at your little kiosk in St. Petersburg. Neither can you stroll into Chicago and start selling marijuana at your little kiosk in McCormick Place. Yes, there may be global markets for your goods BUT, YOU do not have ANY right to sell them any time or any where you want. There ARE limits. There ARE controls. Whether you or I agree with these limits is irrelevant. The fact is they do and they SOMETIMES necessarily exist. It is here where you and I have to review, refine impose detailed LIMITS on government as to their authority to define markets and trade. It is well known that politicians lack the sense God gave a goose and are therefore completely incompetent when it comes to defining , making or breaking markets. So, some other means must be used to used to define and if need be regulate markets. Such means can and should be provided by the market. Strangely, it already has with arbiters and arbitration Only such is not allowed to operate in America with any authority to impose and ensure enforcement of arbitrated agreements. This MUST change and MUST be limited. There are ways to do this and they have existed throughout human history.
 

TAEZZAR

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#11
Julius Krein: 'I Voted For Trump. And I Sorely Regret It'

This "kid" is only 32 y.o. and seems to be a self appointed expert on presenting & explaining graphs of all sorts.
I wonder if his Harvard credentials are sufficient to allow him to speak from a real life point of view rather than regurgitation
of charts & buzz words.
 

TAEZZAR

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#13
Are you sure or is this just more fake news to sway public opinion? Remember the alternative.....
Don't ask me, ask Julius.
I voted for Trump & I don't regret it !!!

edit:
Here it is, in his own words !
 
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EO 11110

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#14
free trade, as applied by nyc.dc, promotes global MONOPOLIES by megacorps. too, it seeks to establish the megacorps as superior to sovereignty. that is what the 'free' trade deals are all about - protecting the megacorps from the sovereigns.

(((they))) have peppered us with 'free' trade propaganda for DECADES. it is what serves them, at great cost to us

insert any of many charts that show the results of 'free' trade globalism -- soaring wealth gains for the parasite class coupled with flat/down compensation for the actual producers

i'll let mr twain explain the refusal to look at the results of 'free' trade with objectivity:

“It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.”

Mark Twain
 

Uglytruth

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#15
Bet he never voted for Trump but probably voted for bernie 5-6 times.
 

EO 11110

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#16
picture is worth a thousand words. cant figure out how to embed?

see the 'free' trade scam suck all of the productivity gains to nyc. is it any wonder we've been pounded with the propaganda for decades? is it any wonder all of nyc and their shills in dc are crying out in pain anytime tariff topic comes up?

anyone know how to embed pics?

https://a.scpr.org/i/4c6724aa98680bb010d6f00b623d1257/109691-full.jpg
 
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Libertaurum

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#17
...There are NO rights to buy or sell in ANY market anywhere. It is ever and always a matter of courtesy and or privilege granted by whoever owns or controls the market. A country as defined by it's claimed and defended borders grants courtesy and privilege to participate in certain markets within the borders of that country then there is further courtesy and privilege that must be granted by those who own and control the specific markets within those countries. ...
There's the crux of your error. The right to trade is an inalienable individual right, not subject to the collective's approval. It is based on private property rights, wich are not subject to the collective's approval, either. Countries are not persons, they don't "grant" individuals the courtesy of exercising their natural rights. On the contrary, the only legitimate purpose of any State is to protect those individual rights. It never has a legitimate right to violate them.
 

Ensoniq

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#18
Just helping with the upload. Personally the ratio is a red herring. Market forces set wages when they aren’t interfered with

D782EA31-1AA7-4C33-959B-FFE9580CC803.jpeg
 

Ensoniq

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There's the crux of your error. The right to trade is an inalienable individual right, not subject to the collective's approval. It is based on private property rights, wich are not subject to the collective's approval, either. Countries are not persons, they don't "grant" individuals the courtesy of exercising their natural rights. On the contrary, the only legitimate purpose of any State is to protect those individual rights. It never has a legitimate right to violate them.
Would you have a problem with a US based company selling a Nuke to the Palestinians?
 

Libertaurum

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#20
Would you have a problem with a US based company selling a Nuke to the Palestinians?
Two points:
1. I might have a problem with lots of things, but that doesn't give me a right to force others to do as I say.
2. How many nuclear weapons do you think would exist except for States coercively funding military industries?
Hint: None
 

FunnyMoney

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#21
Fair and free trade is fine and free trade works and is always FAIR as long as the system in place supporting the trade is FAIR.

But it's impossible to have free and fair trade when the tokens used to buy/sell are not fair nor free floating.

If all the nations were using gold backed, fair and honest tokens (money in use) to support the financial and asset trading then free trade would work just fine.

That's the problem with economic discussions, they are framed inside a matrix which creates imbalances and dishonest machinations and always will until the root cause of the dishonest systems are fixed.
 

Libertaurum

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#22
Fair and free trade is fine and free trade works and is always FAIR as long as the system in place supporting the trade is FAIR.

But it's impossible to have free and fair trade when the tokens used to buy/sell are not fair nor free floating.

If all the nations were using gold backed, fair and honest tokens (money in use) to support the financial and asset trading then free trade would work just fine.

That's the problem with economic discussions, they are framed inside a matrix which creates imbalances and dishonest machinations and always will until the root cause of the dishonest systems are fixed.

Who gets to decide whether a deal is fair or not? Only the parties involved.
You don't need to control the whole world for a trade to be fair. The absence of the use of force, extorsion, fraud and coercion is all it would take to make trade free and, therefore, fair.
Free is fair.
 

FunnyMoney

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#23
...
You don't need to control the whole world for a trade to be fair. The absence of the use of force, extorsion, fraud and coercion is all it would take to make trade free and, therefore, fair.
Free is fair.
Not sure how to remove coercion, force, slave labor and cheats from the system. They've always been there. You can trade all you want to and call it free or fair, but everyone trading is still inside their casino and the house will always get their cut. How do you think they're able to get their cut and make that cut anything they want? It's done on the FOREX exchange. Have you seen the action lately in the Venezuela tokens, the bolivar?
 

EO 11110

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#24
Just helping with the upload. Personally the ratio is a red herring. Market forces set wages when they aren’t interfered with

View attachment 101084
thanks for the help! the labor market is routinely manipulated. two examples of many:

1 - the relentless invasion of labor invading from the south -- supported by the nyc.dc 'free' trade vipers
2 - frbny has, throughout the decades, raised rates when 'wage pressure' appears. they continue to raise until it pops and millions are thrown out of work -- wage pressure gone.

a tight labor market is the working class' only friend

it is no wonder that stopping the invasion and enacting tariffs are met with howls from the manipulators
 

Libertaurum

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#25
Not sure how to remove coercion, force, slave labor and cheats from the system. They've always been there. You can trade all you want to and call it free or fair, but everyone trading is still inside their casino and the house will always get their cut. How do you think they're able to get their cut and make that cut anything they want? It's done on the FOREX exchange. Have you seen the action lately in the Venezuela tokens, the bolivar?
Of course the casino gets its cut, but you don't have to gamble. Those who do choose to participate should be free to do so.
Of course fiat is fraud, but fiat did not come about as a result of any free market.
 

Joe King

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#26
There's the crux of your error. The right to trade is an inalienable individual right, not subject to the collective's approval. It is based on private property rights, wich are not subject to the collective's approval, either.
If one actually has the Right to their life, the Right to support ones life must necessarily also exist.

the only legitimate purpose of any State is to protect those individual rights. It never has a legitimate right to violate them.
However, all of them do. Which is what I think @Alton is getting at. Ie: we're not allowed to just waltz into just any other country we want to and start conducting trade unfettered.
...but that's what they seem to want for our country.

I can see the whole free trade thing as valid, but I can also see that quickly tearing down long standing practices that whole generations of people have built their lives around, because it was the way the society they found themselves in, worked. To just pull the rug out from under them isn't right either.


The way I see it, the USA is a microcosm of how full-on international free trade would work. Ie: the 50 States do not tax each other on goods/services crossing State lines and that's permitted all 50 States to be able to improve their standards of living over the decades.
....but the difference between that and doing it internationally is that the 50 States all follow certain minimums when it comes to things like working conditions. Other nations don't always do that, so they could use virtual slave labor just to undercut the price, and boom, a bunch of our people are suddenly out of work.

What I think is that as long as nations meet a certain minimum standards, then yea, free trade is fine. Because at that point you are dealing with peers.
 

Alton

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#27
There's the crux of your error. The right to trade is an inalienable individual right, not subject to the collective's approval. It is based on private property rights, wich are not subject to the collective's approval, either. Countries are not persons, they don't "grant" individuals the courtesy of exercising their natural rights. On the contrary, the only legitimate purpose of any State is to protect those individual rights. It never has a legitimate right to violate them.
NOT if you have government in the way. In America property rights are nearly extinct. "Legitimate purpose of government" went out the window with legitimate government. This IS today's reality. If you want such things to be the new reality then screw draining the swamp! Fill it in with with concrete and start fresh. If you MUST have government be sure to fill it in with concrete every 20 years and start fresh again.

Sure, "inalienable rights" are indeed a grand idea but, reality is that we are saddled with a corrupted government and have been since Washington took office. From that day forward our "inalienable rights" have been continually eroded by the very government those people established. Today's America looks nothing like the fairy tales we were told and we, that's YOU and ME and 330 million + other people, have to think, work, act from where we are right now.
 

Bigfoot

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#28
I think one has to remember that trade is a two-way street. Party A is offering something and Party B is offering something in return. The idea of a "trade deficit" is silly. Over 99% of Americans run a "trade deficit" with their local grocery store. After all, what is the grocery store buying from you?

But of course, the money you spent doesn't just pile up in the grocery store's vault, they have to pay farmers, and truckers, and the electric company, and on and on. It's the same thing when you buy something made in China, Thailand, or Mexico. That money re-enters the system. Trade is not some black hole that sucks everything away.
 

Joe King

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#29
But of course, the money you spent doesn't just pile up in the grocery store's vault, they have to pay farmers, and truckers, and the electric company, and on and on. It's the same thing when you buy something made in China, Thailand, or Mexico. That money re-enters the system. Trade is not some black hole that sucks everything away.
The difference there is that the money I spend at my local market is used to pay employees who are here. Those people then re-spend that money in our local economy.

If that same money is spent on a good from China, it ends up paying the wages of people there who then spend it on other goods and services in their own economy. Ie: it doesn't do anything to help employ people in my own area.
 

Libertaurum

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#30
Joe and Alton, I understand your argument that free trade is good "in theory" but not under current conditions. Sure, things are far from ideal, but you don't wait until everything is perfect to support what's right. Principles are not useful only under ideal circumstances. It is precisely the willingness to abandon principle in favor of convenience that leads to situations like we have today.

I believe in private property and individual freedom. I don't need to wait until everyone else does to support it.
 

Joe King

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#31
Principles are not useful only under ideal circumstances. It is precisely the willingness to abandon principle in favor of convenience that leads to situations like we have today.
The principles that were abandoned in favor of convenience are the ones our nation was Founded upon. We should hold them up and expect our international trade partners to do the same.
Ie: we have rules here about things like working conditions and pollution management that other nations don't always have. So we try to do the right thing, but end up being sold out to the lowest bidder from overseas that doesn't have those pesky restrictions.
That's why I feel that the free trade thing should only be between nations with similar business environments. Then once the other nations clean up their game, they could be welcomed in too.

Edited to add: the idea should be to cause the World to improve, not just cause the lowest bidder to be taken advantage of and thereby lowering all of us to their standards just to be able to compete.
 

Uglytruth

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#32
the idea should be to cause the World to improve, not just cause the lowest bidder to be taken advantage of
That's why it will not happen. It creates needed distraction for the tptb / nwo. If they are fighting each other they are not paying attention / fighting us. They don't give a dam weather you live or die so long as they can pick your bones clean & profit from it.
 

Libertaurum

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#33
The principles that were abandoned in favor of convenience are the ones our nation was Founded upon. We should hold them up and expect our international trade partners to do the same.
Ie: we have rules here about things like working conditions and pollution management that other nations don't always have. So we try to do the right thing, but end up being sold out to the lowest bidder from overseas that doesn't have those pesky restrictions.
That's why I feel that the free trade thing should only be between nations with similar business environments. Then once the other nations clean up their game, they could be welcomed in too.

Edited to add: the idea should be to cause the World to improve, not just cause the lowest bidder to be taken advantage of and thereby lowering all of us to their standards just to be able to compete.
The principles upon which the US were founded were those of the equality of all men, individual freedom and inalienable rights. It had nothing to do with guaranteeing certain working conditions (slaves would have loved that) or managing pollution (many city streets were covered in crap as late as the 1900's).

Every nation should respect individual freedom, of course, not just the US. It just seems strange to see the US lead the charge against individual freedom, private property and free trade, all of which it championed for so long.

I suppose it's now up to Thailand, Brazil or the Ukraine to defend private property and freedom, particularly from collectivist good intentions.

Oh well, it was a nice idea.
 

FunnyMoney

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#34
Trade imbalances actually do matter. So do human rights. But informed consumers will usually shy away from slave labor produced merchandise and services when they know about them. Problem is fair trade means fair human rights or at least enough transparency to know about the toxins you're buying and how they were made.

But how can a nation tell another nation that they're not buying enough of my stuff and I'm buying more than too much of your stuff when all that action is manipulated via the FOREX market? Transparency starts at the root. If Americans needed to buy things at Walmart with gold and silver then balances would naturally emerge. People do want to know what things are made of, how they're made and when things are very lopsided enough to destroy jobs and human rights.

But all these problems started to get out of control when the gold link was removed and when the silver was taken out of circulation. Prior to that, America was mostly or entirely self sufficient, a supplier of progress to the world and a beacon of hope. Fair trade isn't really possible without honest money. Fake money allows for the biggest abuses to occur, much bigger than even the slave labor farms in NK. The Chinese manipulation of their currency during the 90s is a perfect example.

Scorpio is right when he says, "we made them." But the cat is already out of the bag. They invented paper money, they weren't going to lose in this poker game where corruption in DC let them walk all over our manufacturing. We should have "made them" make themselves. Just like our arms sales to Africa, the banksters were all too happy to loan them the money and so we "made them" in all the wrong ways. Bankster money, cheats and dishonest systems will always do that.
 
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Joe King

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#35
The principles upon which the US were founded were those of the equality of all men, individual freedom and inalienable rights. It had nothing to do with guaranteeing certain working conditions (slaves would have loved that) or managing pollution (many city streets were covered in crap as late as the 1900's).
That may be, but workers Rights and pollution controls are where we are today. Personally, I kinda like pollution controls because without them, stupid people will just fill the streets with crap again.

I'd like to not have to have pollution controls or labor Rights. If all people always applied the golden rule in everything they do, we wouldn't need them or anything else regulating how we treat each other.
...but the unfortunate fact is that we do need them because too many people and/or employers have historically abused their workers and been willing to pollute the commons for their own personal gain. There was a time that we, as a society, didn't care about any of that. Now we do.
 

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#36
The difference there is that the money I spend at my local market is used to pay employees who are here. Those people then re-spend that money in our local economy.

If that same money is spent on a good from China, it ends up paying the wages of people there who then spend it on other goods and services in their own economy. Ie: it doesn't do anything to help employ people in my own area.
Do you know anyone who works in the oil industry? China is the world's largest buyer of American produced oil.

Fair trade isn't really possible without honest money.
There is no doubt an enormous fraud is being committed against the world population through money printing, uncompetitive interest rates, and financial regulations. In short, people barely own the money they work for, and if they exchange that paper for real goods, the governments often steal large portions of it.

However, the use of fiat, and the attack on personal asset ownership, is not a reason to reduce or suspend international trade. If you halted trade, you would still have all of the above mentioned problems plus a much smaller market in which to buy and sell. The results would be more devastating than what we already have.