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Laws of Economics Show Trade War Impossible to Win

Joe King

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#41
I never mentioned "totally open free trade on everything all the time"
Where did I propose that?
Ok @FunnyMoney , so that means you support some tariffs then. Which ones?



Why do you and others keep trying to make this thread about that?
Because you appear to rail against any amount of tariff's at all. Tell us, which ones do you support?
 
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Joe King

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#42
Since they don't work in their present form I will rail against them.
Ok, but you said:

I never mentioned "totally open free trade on everything all the time"
Where did I propose that?
If you aren't for "totally open free trade on everything all the time", then what's the middle ground? Full tariff's on one side, none on the other. We've established that you aren't for having none, so where exactly on that spectrum do you fall?
 

Bigfoot

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#43
Why not? You walk into a hardware store lookin' to buy a hammer and see two of them. They cost about the same which allows you to buy one based on your opinion of each ones quality instead of just buying the import simply because it's half the price.
....and if there were no imports, you'd be buying a $15 hammer anyways.
If I don't have the right to buy an imported hammer for $10 dollars, then that's no different from stealing $5 from my pocket to give to someone else. It's forced wealth redistribution. Additionally, pricing is then set by central planners instead of a real market, which opens the door to all sorts of special interest influence and corruption.

The only way you could get me to support tariffs is if you eliminated the income tax and capital gains taxes completely and used tariffs instead. Even then, the tariffs should be minimal with the target being only to run the cost of legitimate government activity, not to punish or politically manipulate the international markets.
 
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oldgaranddad

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#44
If I don't have the right to buy an imported hammer for $10 dollars, then that's no different from stealing $5 from my pocket to give to someone else. It's forced wealth redistribution. Additionally, pricing is then set by central planners instead of a real market....
Freedom of commerce is only protected/guaranteed within the borders of the country. Outside of the country all bets are off. No where does the commerce clause give you the right to buy something from outside of the country. International trade is allowed and encouraged to an extent by the government because it benefits the government since that was originally the main source of income for the government from tariffs.
 

Bigfoot

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#45
Freedom of commerce is only protected/guaranteed within the borders of the country. Outside of the country all bets are off. No where does the commerce clause give you the right to buy something from outside of the country.
No. The commerce clause doesn't grant me any rights. Rights are natural and God-given to all humans. If I buy something at the street market in Mumbai, I have the exact same rights as I did in New York City. Whether government thugs in either place are successful at stealing my belongings or not, doesn't change my God-given rights.

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.” - Amendment IX

Only when I bring a foreign-made product into the US, do tariffs apply, and again, the purpose isn't to prevent me from acquiring foreign products or associating with foreigners, the purpose is a tax to run the government.

"The Congress shall have the Power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States." -Article I, Section 8

Also, Donald Trump, or any president, shouldn't be doing a job specifically given to Congress by the US Constitution.
 
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Joe King

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#46
I'm not in the spectrum or the "middle ground" as you call it.
Yes, you most certainly are. You said you do not support full-on open trade on everyting all the time, and you also do not support tariff's on everyting either.

The question was, if on one end of the spectrum there are no tariff's on anything and the other end has tariff's on everything, where along that spectrum do you fall?

It's an honest question because you are on-record as having said that you do not support no-tariff free trade on everything. That statement alone says that you are in fact somewhere betwixt the two.

I never mentioned "totally open free trade on everything all the time"
Where did I propose that?
How can you be against that, but also be against tariff's too? It's gotta be one or the other. If there's trade at all, tariff's either apply all the time, none of the time, or some of the time.

I'm just trying to get you to clarify your conflicting statements that you've made. Personally, the more I read the more I think you're just shootin' from the hip on most of this stuff. Prove me wrong. Explain how not being for "totally open free trade on everything all the time" also means being against tariff's.

What other kind of trade is there? It's either tariffed or it's not.
 

Joe King

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#47
If I don't have the right to buy an imported hammer for $10 dollars, then that's no different from stealing $5 from my pocket to give to someone else. It's forced wealth redistribution. Additionally, pricing is then set by central planners instead of a real market, which opens the door to all sorts of special interest influence and corruption.
So how do we prevent all mfg'ing to not move to wherever the cheapest costs are?
....and if you notice in my example, the import is still cheaper than the domesticly made product. That still allows for price competition and maintains pressure on American mfr's to continue looking for ways to become more efficient. Ie: it's not a straight up protectionist move. It's move designed to not have all of our mfr's run out of business due to suddenly having stuff dumped on the market at a price they have no quick way to compete with.

Personally, I wish everything could be done with totally open free trade all the time, but we can't do that yet due to the fact it would decimate our industries.
Perhaps we could have a two-teir system where developed nations with similar standards of living engage in free trade all the time on everything, and have another tier for those nations that don't have similar standards of living.
....and as those nations become developed and increase their living standards, they can join the free trade ranks.

That would create a big incentive for those nations and their govs to get their acts together. Ie: we'd be asking them to rise towards the top rather than all of us being in a race to the bottom. We should be building a World where things get better, but how can we do that if we all end up having to undercut each others prices in a race to the bottom? That means whoever is willing to live in a dirt floor shack and work for a dollar a day will always be the winner.


The only way you could get me to support tariffs is if you eliminated the income tax and capital gains taxes completely and used tariffs instead. Even then, the tariffs should be minimal with the target being only to run the cost of legitimate government activity, not to punish or politically manipulate the international markets.
Even then it would still be the same thing you complain about in your first paragraph. That it amounts to an infringement of your Rights to not be able to buy a $10 hammer from China.

I've always looked at tariff's as the price foreigners had to pay in order to tap into the American market for their profit.



Tariffs won't suddenly change that, not this year and not in 10 years - the strategy doesn't arrive at MAGA, not easily and not at all. It takes trillions of dollars of investment to rebuild a manufacturing base, the tariffs revenue is not going into that and it wouldn't be enough even if it did.
Yet tariff's are what funded everything to do with gov for the first 140 years of the nation. If it worked then, why can't it work now?
....and are you for tariff's or against them? Or do you support some tariff's on some things, but not others?


If I buy something at the street market in Mumbai,....
....India's law's then apply to you.
 

EO 11110

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#48
two big lies that open border free traders push --

1. that margins cannot contract. ie, retail price will rise in lockstep with input cost of widget. patently false. widget seller price is determined BY DEMAND. if they can sell it for 100, 10000, 10,000 that's what they will charge....regardless of input cost

2. product is only a fraction of the cost. also in the cost is the shipping, the stock options, the bonuses, the taxes, the legal department, the marketing, more....much more. so a 20 percent rise in making the widget is easily reduced to small single digit percent rise in price when all of the other inputs are included
 
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gnome

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#49
tariff or continue to get bled out by the open border free trade globalists. those vipers have spent decades plying us with their venom.

the results speak for themselves.
We now have the worst trade deficit in history, thanks to Trump.
 

gnome

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#50
I don't know what the solution is, but I sure know Trump isn't winning.

Screen Shot 2019-05-18 at 1.25.21 AM.png
 
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Scorpio

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#52
many here are well versed in the cause and effect relationship to tariffs,

and with that understanding are quite willing to accept the cost to achieve the result desired,

make no mistake, this is not about what is best for the avg slave, this is about corporatism and wall street,

using historical examples to try to cement a point is actually quite silly, as the prior systems vs todays are infinitely different

we have talked of the exportation of inflation, the importing of deflation, the exportation of environmental damage, and the importation of lessened liability along with other factors contributing to this.

we haven't even explored the out of sight out of mind mentality of the wage slaves, wherein Lake Erie used to be a corporate wasteland, now returning to normal. But, that environmental raping continues to this day, just not here.

for persons that truly believe the chins are doing this on their own, they are not paying attention.

those who cry free trade free trade in their defense of the no tariffs position are sadly lacking in any real education and intelligence. They prefer to puppet the propaganda rather than doing the work to arrive at fair conclusions.

JMO of course
 

FunnyMoney

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#53
...

those who cry free trade free trade in their defense of the no tariffs position are sadly lacking in any real education and intelligence. They prefer to puppet the propaganda rather than doing the work to arrive at fair conclusions....
Not sure if you were speaking to the OP. Possibly you were not, but just to be clear... I'm not against tariffs. All I was saying is they will not achieve the desired goal, not even the corporatism goal which you mentioned. The entire trade war and tariff play we are watching is just that. It is a show.

If the truth were known widespread about how things actually work, most liberty minded people would be for a clean break from anything tyranny related.

But as Henry Ford said, if people really knew how it worked, there would be a revolution tomorrow morning. We are a long way from any of that. The narrative has become all powerful and near everyone buys into the show.


Returning Back to the OP, once again, proven correct... Trump says going ahead with additional tariffs and they moved the peg from 6.8 to over 7 which negates any impact which additional tariffs might have caused to encourage US domestic production.
 
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Uglytruth

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#54
if people really knew how it worked, there would be a revolution tomorrow morning.
People ain't got no money. They got debt and are debt slaves. They know money works against them.