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Lost package on gim deal

southfork

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So how do you all think this would be handled here, suppose members from gim do transaction and the package gets lost, obviously no insurance so who gets the loss? Seller, buyer or 50/50 , hate to think of this happening but its possible
 

Bottom Feeder

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Hummmm...
Good question, fork.
I would hafta start with "it depends..."
Trading with a new member
Trading with someone that has little or no history.
Trading with someone we all know well.
Trading with someone a little 'over the edge'

ect etc

JMSO,
BF
 

Bottom Feeder

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Maybe we could work up a "Pre-shipment agreement" we could adhere to.
(kinda like a prenuptial agreement)

BF
 

the_shootist

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I'm looking for more gold so if anyone here has some to sell me at spot I'll be the guinea pig :)
 

MrLucky

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Should have overnight or 2nd day air. Seller is responsible for delivery.
Would have to agree with this one. Seller.

If I were to send a coin to a grading service and it got lost along the way. Would they pay for half of the loss?
 

Buck

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when no insurance is involved, as there is zero control over third party carrier, the equitable thing to do would be to split the loss

but that calls into question the ability to 'prove' receipt was never made


i've mailed out lots of items, no insurance. One / Two 'actual' loses over the years isn't bad at all, but, i've had a dozen or more times, that i'm aware of, the item was delivered but not scanned into the system. Contacting the PO has not always been a successful adventure for 'lost items' and i do suspect one of those two 'actual' loses that i mentioned above, was in fact, received / delivered, but i couldn't prove it, so, i ate the loss, per ebay policy

honor is always #1 but that means trust . . . well, it's gotta be there too

just suggesting, it's a risk that's entered into, and like southfork mentions, it should be spoken about beforehand



 

Buck

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Would have to agree with this one. Seller.

If I were to send a coin to a grading service and it got lost along the way. Would they pay for half of the loss?
i've never agreed with THEIR policy, ever - especially since they 'entice you' to become a customer, you're a loser if you don't...

at least one of these companies are greedy bastards to begin with, if you want their service, become their slave

i no longer submit to them
 

shallow_explorer

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Seller is responsible for delivery.

If I send a check and it doesn’t arrive, do we split the difference? Sounds equitable to me.
 

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Has money exchanged yet?

He who suffers the financial loss, should be the one who is compensated for the loss.
 

Buck

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Seller is responsible for delivery.

If I send a check and it doesn’t arrive, do we split the difference? Sounds equitable to me.
no loss occurred simply by writing another check...not really the same thing

Has money exchanged yet?

He who suffers the financial loss, should be the one who is compensated for the loss.
and any talk about financial loss is moot unless you're willing to forgo the value of the fiat that was sent
 

ttazzman

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Seller should have proof of shipping and tracking to protect himself...buyer assumes shipping risk unless he requests and pays for insurance.....the sale was one transaction...shipping was another...if text of sale says "plus shipping" vs "delivered"....buyer delivers payment....seller is responsible to deliver product to a shipper with proof unless otherwise specified...
 

Buck

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it should be agreed to, beforehand...no doubt
 

MrLucky

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i've never agreed with THEIR policy, ever - especially since they 'entice you' to become a customer, you're a loser if you don't...

at least one of these companies are greedy bastards to begin with, if you want their service, become their slave

i no longer submit to them
I only used "a grading company" as an example with no specific company mentioned.

But now that you mentioned how you feel, I sent a package to you 2 weeks ago, it appears to be lost. Can you send me half?
 

Joe King

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Ship registered, and it won't be a problem.

Edited to add: or "buyers choice" as to method of shipment. If they cheap out and go with standard delivery, it's on them if it gets lost in transit.
The shipping info and tracking number should be sufficient proof that the item was in fact shipped.
 
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Buck

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I only used "a grading company" as an example with no specific company mentioned.

But now that you mentioned how you feel, I sent a package to you 2 weeks ago, it appears to be lost. Can you send me half?
hey, i never got it...stg, it never showed up, you can even check USPS

i'm filing a Neg FB for you buddy

:computer:
 

Buck

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Ship registered, and it won't be a problem.

Edited to add: or "buyers choice" as to method of shipment. If they cheap out and go with standard delivery, it's on them if it gets lost in transit.
The shipping info and tracking number should be sufficient proof that the item was in fact shipped.
Registered...there it is
 

pitw

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This didn't used to be such a problem but now the postal systems seem to have lowered their highering standards to include inmates. If we want it shipped by mail and the shipper has the find it number then I think he has done everything he can.
 

stas3000

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Here is a list of various things to keep in mind when getting coins/bullion/PM's delivered to you or sent to others (in no particular order):
  • USPS normally does not cover any loss with their own "insurance", no matter how much coverage you buy
  • Third-party insurance (i.e. what eBay offers) most likely will not cover PM's either
  • Registered Mail is the only way to get your money back in case of a lost package (however, I don't have any experience with an actual loss - everything I've ever sent via RM was delivered just fine); RM does not work with First Class so need to pay for Priority Mail at the minimum
  • The best "insurance" is usually a combination of a very well packed envelope and a clearly printed shipping label
  • Double-box (or two envelopes with address on each) each package esp. if value and/or weight is substantial
  • Pack everything tight so there is minimal movement and definitely no "coin noise" using paper, bubble wrap, peanuts, etc (try to keep sticky packaging from making contact with metal)
  • Cover packages with a good amount of tape all over so that everything is secure and don't write anything like "precious metals inside" or that the return address is "Gold and Silver Co. Ltd" :)
  • There is really no advantage to Priority Mail if your package is under 1 lb in weight; First Class and Priority Mail packages, as far as I know, are handled by USPS the same way and take the same amount of time if they are light (the free insurance "perk" with Priority Mail will not work with coins)
  • The default, if buyer pre-pays for PM's, is that seller is not responsible for lost packages unless both parties agreed in advance, Registered Mail was paid for or seller is simply willing to cover the loss just because
 

shallow_explorer

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A very helpful list. I only disagree with one point…

“There is really no advantage to Priority Mail if your package is under 1 lb in weight”

I mail 2500 1st class packages/year. I average 4 claims for non-delivery per year or 1/625 packages shipped. I don’t know if these packages were truly lost, or whether the packages were delivered, but USPS didn’t show it as delivered and then the purchaser took advantage to get a free coin.

I have probably mailed 625 Priority packages in the last 8-10 years. I have never lost a Priority package. Much smaller dataset, but still telling. I think the minimal insurance on a Priority package causes the carriers to pay a little more attention. I also suspect losses on Priority packages are reviewed closer internally by USPS. While a first class package may get delivered without the carrier marking it as delivered, I suspect there are serious consequences if a Priority package doesn’t get marked as delivered, as then the insurance aspect of the loss will shine a light on the carrier’s negligence.

Based on this limited dataset, I ship anything of >$300 in value in a Priority box. I would never send an ounce of gold first class, for instance. Once the value gets above $5000, I generally send it Registered.
 

newmisty

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A very helpful list. I only disagree with one point…

“There is really no advantage to Priority Mail if your package is under 1 lb in weight”

I mail 2500 1st class packages/year. I average 4 claims for non-delivery per year or 1/625 packages shipped. I don’t know if these packages were truly lost, or whether the packages were delivered, but USPS didn’t show it as delivered and then the purchaser took advantage to get a free coin.

I have probably mailed 625 Priority packages in the last 8-10 years. I have never lost a Priority package. Much smaller dataset, but still telling. I think the minimal insurance on a Priority package causes the carriers to pay a little more attention. I also suspect losses on Priority packages are reviewed closer internally by USPS. While a first class package may get delivered without the carrier marking it as delivered, I suspect there are serious consequences if a Priority package doesn’t get marked as delivered, as then the insurance aspect of the loss will shine a light on the carrier’s negligence.

Based on this limited dataset, I ship anything of >$300 in value in a Priority box. I would never send an ounce of gold first class, for instance. Once the value gets above $5000, I generally send it Registered.
Any further tips you got? I generally put extra tape on my packages as an extra layer of protection against the elements. Got one spriority package from a member here and the box was torn wide open. Fortunately the contents(non metals) were fortunately still there.
 

shallow_explorer

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Any further tips you got? I generally put extra tape on my packages as an extra layer of protection against the elements. Got one spriority package from a member here and the box was torn wide open. Fortunately the contents(non metals) were fortunately still there.
For 3oz or less, I use padded brown 000# envelopes which I completely wrap with clear packing tape. For 4-5oz, I use a 2x3x5“ cardboard box, wrapped in packing tape. Anything heavier is generally >$250 in value so I use a Priority Small Flat Rate box. On SFR boxes, I use clear packing tape and completely cover the box in all 3 directions. I limit the weight to 25 oz of silver. For 25-100 oz, I package in a 1096 box completely wrapped with clear packing tape and then place in a padded envelope partially wrapped in clear packing tape. Cost is a dime more than a SFR, definitely worth it. 100+ to 200 oz I use two 1096 boxes, completely wrapped in clear packing tape, inside a Regional A Box. I then wrap Reg A box with filament tape across all edges in 3 directions and then completely wrap in clear packing tape. I use plenty of filler so coin tubes/rolls etc. don’t move. Reg A boxes are nearly the size of MFR box and have the added benefit of always being cheaper than a MFR and they are priced on distance shipped. Only shipping a couple states away? Then Reg A will be only a buck, or so, more than a padded envelope. Bottomline, tape is cheap. Use it. Also, double box or use padded envelope inside of box to keep multiple tubes together. That combined with filament tape will keep even damaged boxes from leaking. Clear packing tape, by itself, will not keep a heavy Reg A or MFR box from breaking open if abused by postal service. Strongly recommend adding filament tape to the mixture on heavier packages. Regional A has lower weight limit, 15 pounds, so more than that you have to use MFR. I generally choose to break up the order into multiple packages when the weight exceeds 200 oz silver or 13+ pounds.
 
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southfork

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Any further tips you got? I generally put extra tape on my packages as an extra layer of protection against the elements. Got one spriority package from a member here and the box was torn wide open. Fortunately the contents(non metals) were fortunately still there.

Anyone here thats bought from me know how well I pack my shipments, also try to keep sales under one k for fear of thieves in po and the public. Never lost one package , had a guy on flea bay coin didnt arrive, and my tracking confirmed it, after two weeks i refunded him the money, 70.00.
So a few days latter the coin arrives, I ask the buyer to pay and he said send him a bill, I billed him and he says he already paid, ebay rules in his favor. Needless to say hes on blocked buyer list. I always try to do the right thing by people, just wish Id get some payback on that.
 

newmisty

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For 3oz or less, I use padded brown 000# envelopes which I completely wrap with clear packing tape. For 4-5oz, I use a 2x3x5“ cardboard box, wrapped in packing tape. Anything heavier is generally >$250 in value so I use a Priority Small Flat Rate box. On SFR boxes, I use clear packing tape and completely cover the box in all 3 directions. I limit the weight to 25 oz of silver. For 25-100 oz, I package in a 1096 box completely wrapped with clear packing tape and then place in a padded envelope partially wrapped in clear packing tape. Cost is a dime more than a SFR, definitely worth it. 100+ to 200 oz I use two 1096 boxes, completely wrapped in clear packing tape, inside a Regional A Box. I then wrap Reg A box with filament tape across all edges in 3 directions and then completely wrap in clear packing tape. I use plenty of filler so coin tubes/rolls etc. don’t move. Reg A boxes are nearly the size of MFR box and have the added benefit of always being cheaper than a MFR and they are priced on distance shipped. Only shipping a couple states away? Then Reg A will be only a buck, or so, more than a padded envelope. Bottomline, tape is cheap. Use it. Also, double box or use padded envelope inside of box to keep multiple tubes together. That combined with filament tape will keep even damaged boxes from leaking. Clear packing tape, by itself, will not keep a heavy Reg A or MFR box from breaking open if abused by postal service. Strongly recommend adding filament tape to the mixture on heavier packages. Regional A has lower weight limit, 15 pounds, so more than that you have to use MFR. I generally choose to break up the order into multiple packages when the weight exceeds 200 oz silver or 13+ pounds.
Just what I hopped for, thanks so much.
 

Joe King

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For 3oz or less, I use padded brown 000# envelopes which I completely wrap with clear packing tape. For 4-5oz, I use a 2x3x5“ cardboard box, wrapped in packing tape. Anything heavier is generally >$250 in value so I use a Priority Small Flat Rate box. On SFR boxes, I use clear packing tape and completely cover the box in all 3 directions. I limit the weight to 25 oz of silver. For 25-100 oz, I package in a 1096 box completely wrapped with clear packing tape and then place in a padded envelope partially wrapped in clear packing tape. Cost is a dime more than a SFR, definitely worth it. 100+ to 200 oz I use two 1096 boxes, completely wrapped in clear packing tape, inside a Regional A Box. I then wrap Reg A box with filament tape across all edges in 3 directions and then completely wrap in clear packing tape. I use plenty of filler so coin tubes/rolls etc. don’t move. Reg A boxes are nearly the size of MFR box and have the added benefit of always being cheaper than a MFR and they are priced on distance shipped. Only shipping a couple states away? Then Reg A will be only a buck, or so, more than a padded envelope. Bottomline, tape is cheap. Use it. Also, double box or use padded envelope inside of box to keep multiple tubes together. That combined with filament tape will keep even damaged boxes from leaking. Clear packing tape, by itself, will not keep a heavy Reg A or MFR box from breaking open if abused by postal service. Strongly recommend adding filament tape to the mixture on heavier packages. Regional A has lower weight limit, 15 pounds, so more than that you have to use MFR. I generally choose to break up the order into multiple packages when the weight exceeds 200 oz silver or 13+ pounds.
All good advice on packaging, but how does that help if the pkg becomes lost, stolen, or mis-delivered?

The best packaged item can still disappear in transit if shipped via regular mail.


Never lost one package , had a guy on flea bay coin didnt arrive, and my tracking confirmed it, after two weeks i refunded him the money, 70.00.
Registered would've completely avoided the problem.


So a few days latter the coin arrives, I ask the buyer to pay and he said send him a bill, I billed him and he says he already paid, ebay rules in his favor.
Did ebay know that you had refunded the purchase price? If so, how can that be considered fair by any standard?
 

BeefJerky

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Doesn't registered mail add many dollars to the shipping cost?
 

Joe King

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Doesn't registered mail add many dollars to the shipping cost?
It'll guarantee it gets there.

If it's me doing the shipping, as well as being the responsible party if anything goes wrong during shipping, it's going registered.
If a buyer doesn't like that and requests shipping valuables via a less secure method, it's on them if it becomes lost or stolen in transit.

Look at @southfork 's experience. He used the cheaper method and ended up getting ripped off.
 

BeefJerky

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If you ship hundreds of $70 items and one gets lost. Hiw much are you willing to pay for insurance on each item?
 

Joe King

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If you ship hundreds of $70 items and one gets lost. Hiw mucbh are you willing to pay for insurance on each item?
Buyer pays for shipping. If they want it a cheaper way, the risk of loss or theft is on them.

After all, the question posed was, what is the recourse on lost shipments.
My method fully addresses that question.
 

Fiat Metaler

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In my opinion the loss is on buyer. FWIW, I think that is the law.

This makes sense because its the Buyer who specifies the method and cost of shipment and can spring for insurance.

Also, just because you ship it next day or Fed Ex or whatever does not mean that its insured. The only practical way to insure of which I am aware is to ship registered mail, U.S. govt, and then pay extra for insurance that is probably worthless. To ship registered, the post office tapes every inch of the box wtih tamper proof tape - this takes quite a bit of time.
 

Ragnarok

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I was told a few days ago by the local contract USPS office that registered mail is only available for value equal to or exceeding $5000. True? False?

R.
 

shallow_explorer

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MFR is medium flat rate?
Yes.

Doesn't registered mail add many dollars to the shipping cost?
Yes. Cost based on package value. In addition to postage cost fee is $10 for no value packages up to $42 for $25k package value. So not a bad deal for valuable packages.

Link:
I was told a few days ago by the local contract USPS office that registered mail is only available for value equal to or exceeding $5000. True? False?
False. Link above shows pricing beginning at $0 declared value.
 

savvydon

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I think this has been mentioned at some point but it is also possible to purchase third party insurance for any particular package. I have never actually used this myself but I investigated it fairly closely at one time. You work thru details of shipping with the third party and then I believe it is possible to insure items which the USPS will not insure, such as bullion. This option isn't cheap but is another tool to add to the arsenal if you are trying to ship a high dollar package.
 

Ragnarok

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Yes.


Yes. Cost based on package value. In addition to postage cost fee is $10 for no value packages up to $42 for $25k package value. So not a bad deal for valuable packages.

Link:

False. Link above shows pricing beginning at $0 declared value.
Thanks for this, I’ll show it to them next time I want to ship something registered.

R.
 

Uglytruth

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Anyone think it was stolen? With all the scanners & x-rays a package with a high insurance value might be inspected much better then "lost".

What if the contents were wrapped in tin foil once or twice to block any snooping? Kinda like the electronic packaging but home made.
 

Fiat Metaler

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I think this has been mentioned at some point but it is also possible to purchase third party insurance for any particular package. I have never actually used this myself but I investigated it fairly closely at one time. You work thru details of shipping with the third party and then I believe it is possible to insure items which the USPS will not insure, such as bullion. This option isn't cheap but is another tool to add to the arsenal if you are trying to ship a high dollar package.

Can you provide a link or some names?
 

Goldbrix

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If you ship hundreds of $70 items and one gets lost. Hiw much are you willing to pay for insurance on each item?
Postage paid by customer/buyer not seller. " Price + Postage and Handling "
Should be documented on any offered item for sale.