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Maryland family asked to leave Outback Steakhouse

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#41
III-3.0000 GENERAL REQUIREMENTS

Regulatory references: 28 CFR 36.201-36.213.

III-3.1000 General. A public accommodation may not discriminate against an individual with a disability in the operation of a place of public accommodation. Individuals with disabilities may not be denied full and equal enjoyment of the "goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations" offered by a place of public accommodation. The phrase "goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations" applies to whatever type of good or service a public accommodation provides to its customers or clients. In other words, a public accommodation must ensure equal opportunity for individuals with disabilities.

Several broad principles underlie the nondiscrimination requirements of title III. These include --

1) Equal opportunity to participate;

2) Equal opportunity to benefit; and

3) Receipt of benefits in the most integrated setting appropriate.​
 

Someone_else

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#42
That act clearly states there must be "ease of access" for disabled persons in any commercial establishment.
I will go along with you. I think it is a good idea that a restaurant would have separate areas for the quiet and polite patrons versus the loud and obnoxious. It could be a new version of smoking versus non-smoking areas. Maybe the default seating would be in the obnoxious area, and if the people ask for a nicer table, they could move to the civilized area.

Once I was in a Las Vegas restaurant as a member of my company. The place was probably very expensive. It was not huge, it was on its own lot. It could hold maybe a hundred people at most? The interior was supposed to look fancy, with wine racks and other crap. And the noise was UNBEARABLE! I had a hard time talking to people next to me or across from the table. It was almost as if they designed the room acoustics for maximum pain. Yes, it was almost painful. What kind of shithead makes a restaurant painful?!

Another relevant story is when my wife and I went to a "decent" restaurant that she liked. We got a table and I started with coffee. (I never do that now.) The tables were almost empty. A group came in and got a table close to ours. The guy at the table and a restaurant guy (manager?) got into a huge and painfully loud discussion about something. They just could not shut up, and the volume was really getting to me. When the server came back, I asked if we could move to the smoking area. I do NOT like eating in a smoking area, but it would be better than enduring the pain of these loud assholes. Did I say LOUD?! Did I say ASSHOLES?! Okay, then. The server said I could NOT move to the smoking section to avoid the assholes. So I got up. I threw a dollar on the table for my coffee. And I said I would never go there again. In the parking lot, the manager(?) came to me and asked me to come back. NO WAY. GOODBYE FOREVER. I never went back.
 

PhucilliJerry

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#43
Who gets to decide who is loud and obnoxious? Liberals? Conservatives? The mute and deaf? Grumpy old guys?

What happens if you sneeze or cough, do you have to move back to the bad section? How many coughs or sneezes do you get? Clink your glasses to celebrate something? Cut through your steak too hard and hit knife to plate? What if you fart after some baked beans? What if your chair squeaks when you shift in your seat? What if you squeeze out the last of the ketchup and the bottle makes a noise? Pull out your wallet to show ID for a drink and your keys fall to the floor? Can you crack lobster shells or do you have to pay more for lazy man’s lobster? What if you finish your water fast and the ice that remains settles in the glass? What if the person you’re with says something funny and you laugh? Or heaven forbid you snort because it was really funny?
No more singing happy birthday to people to celebrate, way too disturbing to people whose birthdays it isn’t!
What about other senses, what if someone doesn’t like the smell of your meal?
 

Scorpio

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#44
What happens if you sneeze or cough, do you have to move back to the bad section? How many coughs or sneezes do you get? Clink your glasses to celebrate something? Cut through your steak too hard and hit knife to plate? What if you fart after some baked beans? What if your chair squeaks when you shift in your seat? What if you squeeze out the last of the ketchup and the bottle makes a noise? Pull out your wallet to show ID for a drink and your keys fall to the floor? Can you crack lobster shells or do you have to pay more for lazy man’s lobster? What if you finish your water fast and the ice that remains settles in the glass? What if the person you’re with says something funny and you laugh? Or heaven forbid you snort because it was really funny?
No more singing happy birthday to people to celebrate, way too disturbing to people whose birthdays it isn’t!
What about other senses, what if someone doesn’t like the smell of your meal?
ok, so now this has went to the ridiculous,

in a true free market, the owner gets to determine this, and not .gov

if he wants a free for all, then that he shall have,
if he chooses to have a more reserved environment, then that too is his choice,

then the market can decide whether or not you agree with him/her/it

it is not up to you or me, as it isn't our money or our rep at stake,
our choice is to patronize the establishment or not.

as for the persons above, someone commented 'he had paid for the meal'. Well no he did not. Customarily, you pay for the meal at outback after you are finished and the waiter/tress stops by to drop the check before you leave. They don't demand payment up front. Who knows, the mgr may have comped the meal, but the article was wrote so slanted that we won't know.

someone stated sue the hell out of them. My goodness think of that for a moment. The mgr or owner asks the person to leave, in a effort to take care of the majority of his customers and you state sue the hell out of him? Seriously? For the ADA reasons?

to me, that is just plain misguided thinking,
 

historyrepete

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#45
I understand your two stories about disciplining "normal" kids, but the original story is not about a "normal" kid. The child has a condition that causes him to use improper words and sound volume. The kid was not being a "brat" but was making others feel uncomfortable so the manager asked to couple to take their "different" kid away from the normal "public".

I two can see both side of this issue but what I can not see is the "third side" or the management side. They asked a protected class of person to leave when they had every right (and yes it is a right) to be there, they paid for the food. I'll watch to see how this plays out in the courts.
The issue is the tolerance of perceived disruption. Regardless of the source.
 
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#47
If you guys accept
someone stated sue the hell out of them. My goodness think of that for a moment. The mgr or owner asks the person to leave, in a effort to take care of the majority of his customers and you state sue the hell out of him? Seriously? For the ADA reasons?

to me, that is just plain misguided thinking,
I don'nt agree. I have a "disabled" son my self.
 

dozer99

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#49
I was kind of liking the "debate" part of this. It makes you think. I don't think there is a clear cut answer to this, but more of a judgment call.

As Irons said, Outback is McDonalds with beer. Everyone I have ever been in has been noisy and loud anyways so more noise is not going to ruin the atmosphere!

A true fine dining establishment (think your local upscale Steakhouse) would have a totally different atmosphere. I can see the parents at one of these being asked to maintain the decorum or please take said small child outside. But an outback (anti 2A now so I don't patronize anymore)!
 

Usury

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#51
Scorp is right...bottom line it’s private property and under the Constitution only the owner/management gets to decide.
 

skychief

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#52
It's selfish of people to take their unruly kids to any decent restaurant where patrons pay hard-earned money for a nice dining experience.

The management should post signs outside the door saying: Disruptive Behavior By Anyone Is Not Tolerated In This Establishment.

That should send a message to parents that people don't want to be bothered by their misbehaving children.
 

Someone_else

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#54
^^^ That web site did not want to show me the article because I block ads. And it is not even their article, it is from AP.
Matthew Rose said he recently sent an email to the chain's corporate offices after a couple of bad experiences. He said a district manager emailed him back, writing that while it wasn't an excuse for poor service, the Massachusetts town "has little to no talent pool to hire from."

The restaurant, according to the email, was constantly interviewing but "qualified candidates" were hard to find because "most are recovering addicts."
Okay, just how much pay is Wendy's offering... in MASSACHUSETTS?" For such offered pay, how many "qualified candidates" will accept the offer?

I suspect this is analogous to the company that wants a software engineer with 10 years experience with a 4 year old language, and is reluctant to pay more than $40K.

I ask, maybe it is NOT possible for certain fast food chains to operate in certain markets because cheap labor is NOT available?
 

Silvestor

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#55
In the age of social media, the manager was a fool to ask them leave. It caused more of a problem than losing some of the innocent people that had to suffer through the obnoxious vocalizations of some defective kid.
 

hammerhead

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#56
^^^ That web site did not want to show me the article because I block ads. And it is not even their article, it is from AP.

Okay, just how much pay is Wendy's offering... in MASSACHUSETTS?" For such offered pay, how many "qualified candidates" will accept the offer?

I suspect this is analogous to the company that wants a software engineer with 10 years experience with a 4 year old language, and is reluctant to pay more than $40K.

I ask, maybe it is NOT possible for certain fast food chains to operate in certain markets because cheap labor is NOT available?
10 years experience in fast food won't get you 40k.
 

Juristic Person

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#57
I have no problem with this. A restaurant isn’t in business to make money. Their rules. If they don’t like you they can ask you to leave. Outback doesn’t owe anybody a steak.
 

PhucilliJerry

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#60
The owner of the premises. If I own a restaurant, I get to decide what constitutes acceptable behavior.
Agreed, and that is kind of the point. Outback has a kids menu which tells me they are family friendly and accept noise levels that come with kids. They also have a bar and TVs which aren’t exactly quiet. As mentioned by someone else, this isn’t a private club. Nor is it an upscale restaurant where kids aren’t allowed. Seems the decision was already made but someone decided to complain anyway.
 

Strawboss

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#61
The owner of the premises. If I own a restaurant, I get to decide what constitutes acceptable behavior.
Tell that to the cake dude in Colorado...

He thought the same way as you do...figured he could decide who to bake cakes for...and what kind of cakes...
 

mtnman

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#62
.
mail.jpg
 

mtnman

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#63
Tell that to the cake dude in Colorado...

He thought the same way as you do...figured he could decide who to bake cakes for...and what kind of cakes...
Seems like I read where the cake guy won his case in the Supreme Court..
 

Uncle

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#64
"Unruly kids will be given a double expresso and a puppy."

Golden Regards
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#65
I think you guys are extremely misguided in your thinking. Especially in this current regulatory environment. You would open your selves up to federal lawsuits if you choose to operate in a way many advocate here.. Just sayin...

http://adagreatlakes.com/Resources/Anniversary/27thAnniversary/ADA_Cases.asp

Edit

Some valid case law from the link i think

Ball by Burba v. Kasich, 2017 WL 1102688 (S.D. Ohio Mar. 23, 2017)
A class action lawsuit was filed on behalf of thousands of people with developmental disabilities living in large institutions, as well as thousands of others living in the family home on waiting list who are at risk of institutionalization. In denying the State's motion to dismiss, the court confirmed that the Supreme Court's decision in Olmstead and the ADA's integration mandate apply to those who are living in the community who allege current harm and serious risk of institutionalization. The U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) filed a Statement of Interest in support of the plaintiffs' position, and the court favorably cited DOJ's Statement on the Enforcement of the Integration Mandate supporting "at risk" claims: https://www.ada.gov/olmstead/q&a_olmstead.htm. The court also held that a one-time, time-limited settlement in a similar case that ended in 2009 did not prevent the plaintiffs from filing a new case for new wrongful conduct. The court noted that where "important human values" are at stake, even a small change in circumstances is enough to allow new legal claim."
 
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mtnman

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#66
I think you guys are extremely misguided in your thinking. Especially in this current regulatory environment. You would open your selves up to federal lawsuits if you choose to operate in a way many advocate here.. Just sayin...

http://adagreatlakes.com/Resources/Anniversary/27thAnniversary/ADA_Cases.asp

Edit

Some valid case law from the link i think
No, we are NOT misguided. The rest of the snowflake world is the problem. Too many pussies. Little known fact, prior to the late 1800's parents killed deformed babies at birth. Mentally retarded children were also disposed of. You didn't feed and raise defective children. It's just the way of nature.
 

newmisty

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No, we are NOT misguided. The rest of the snowflake world is the problem. Too many pussies. Little known fact, prior to the late 1800's parents killed deformed babies at birth. Mentally retarded children were also disposed of. You didn't feed and raise defective children. It's just the way of nature.
Well thats the trick right? Get everyone mad at the Roundup/Vaccinated Disabled and keep the eye off the regulators?

Oh for crying out loud. Many restaurants won't let you in if you don't have the right clothes on.
I'd say thay better be a private club because you can cleraly see the federal guidlines. OSHA would come with shot guns.
 

Strawboss

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#69

Mujahideen

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#70
I'd say thay better be a private club because you can cleraly see the federal guidlines.
How is that violating federal guidelines?
 
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#71
Oh for crying out loud. Many restaurants won't let you in if you don't have the right clothes on.
How is that violating federal guidelines?
I mispoke You need to have shirt and shoes according to OSHA I suppose.

https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/standardinterpretations/1995-08-10
MEMORANDUM FOR: REGIONAL ADMINISTRATIONS
FROM: JAMES W. STANLEY
Deputy Assistant Secretary
SUBJECT: Guidelines for the Enforcement of the Apparel Standard, 29 CFR 1910.269(l)(6), of the Electric Power Generation, Transmission, and Distribution Standard
Yet follow one federal Statute and not another dosn't make sense to me?
 
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#72
OSHA requirements are set by statute, standards and regulations. Our interpretation letters explain these requirements and how they apply to particular circumstances, but they cannot create additional employer obligations.
Maybe no one needs to follow OSHA? I'm just some idiot on the internet.
 

newmisty

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PhucilliJerry

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No, we are NOT misguided. The rest of the snowflake world is the problem. Too many pussies. Little known fact, prior to the late 1800's parents killed deformed babies at birth. Mentally retarded children were also disposed of. You didn't feed and raise defective children. It's just the way of nature.
Who are the snowflakes/pussies in this case? The parents who chose to make the sacrifice to raise and love their special needs child or the people who bitch to management when someone makes some noise they can't handle? Who is requesting their "safe space" at a family friendly restaurant? Don't like kids, that's fine, don't go to a restaurant with a kids menu if you can't take some noise from them.

Maybe you guys are Democratic Socialists and just don't know it:

"Guys, first of all, James Jackson, Sacramento he/him," I just want to say can we please keep the chatter to a minimum, I'm one of the people whose very, very prone to sensory overload there's a lot of whispering and chattering going on it's making it very difficult for me to focus, Please, I know we're all fresh and ready to go, but please can we just keep the chatter to a minimum. It's affecting my ability to focus." (emphasis added)
 

Joe King

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#76
Maybe no one needs to follow OSHA? I'm just some idiot on the internet.
What would OSHA have to do with it? They deal with workplace safety.
 

ErrosionOfAccord

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I'd say both sides are snowflakes and assholes. If my kid was disturbing the whole building I would have dragged him out of there. Obnoxious children shouldn't be allowed to raise hell in a place where people are paying for a service.
 

TAEZZAR

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Oh for crying out loud. Many restaurants won't let you in if you don't have the right clothes on.
Whooooooa, misty, I was in a restaurant that took part of my clothes OFF before I could come in !! :oriental: