• Same story, different day...........year ie more of the same fiat floods the world
  • There are no markets
  • "Spreading the ideas of freedom loving people on matters regarding high finance, politics, constructionist Constitution, and mental masturbation of all types"

New here but i wonder about the Secular Humanist and the Nihilist.

Mudd

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#1
When theists say that atheism cannot exist with morality, secular humanists are quick to say that it is a misconception about atheism. But their objection is misplaced. This isn't so much a misconception about atheism as it is about atheists.

Yes, there are some theists who do indeed try to assert that atheists can't be moral, and secular humanists are right to object, because such a claim is not true. Atheists can in fact be ethical.

However, while it is true that atheists can be moral, it is NOT true that one can be logically consistent and be an atheist and a moral realist at the same time. This latter claim is the true argument, not the former.





Now, as to why one cannot be an atheist and be a moral realist at the same time, there are two very similar reasons why this is so, the first coming from David Hume, one of the greatest philosophers to ever live, and the second coming from J.L. Mackie.

First the Humean argument. David Hume famously pointed out that one cannot extract an ought-statement from an is-statement. You cannot get an ought from an is, or in more technical terms, one cannot derive a prescriptive fact from a descriptive fact.

Batman, because he failed to point to a metaphysical, transcendent and ontological foundation, cannot make the case that the joker ought to prefer choice A over choice B. The joker, realizing this, throws Batman's assertion back in his face. The joker laughs in his face, and points out that the secular humanist's rules are a "bad joke." And that the only sensible way to live in his world is without rules. To be a nihilist like himself.

Even with all of his strength, Batman cannot make his humanistic assertion true. In an atheistic worldview, it simply doesn't follow logically.

On an atheistic worldview, the only transcendental facts are descriptive facts. By transcendental I mean facts which are true regardless of what anyone thinks.

Now this being said, there can therefore be no prescriptive facts on an atheistic worldview. Therefore, if atheists are to be consistent, they have to move beyond their short-sighted secular humanism and move into the realm of moral nihilism and sit alongside Ledger's joker.

Now perhaps morality is just a property. Perhaps certain actions, like shoving a pencil into someone's head, has the property of being wrong, and other actions, like saving people from a hospital rigged to blow, has the property of being right.

Forgetting for the moment that morality is not descriptive, but rather is a series of statements of certain actions one ought to do or ought not do, we can turn to J.L. Mackie's take on this.

To say that naturalistic, material objects can stand in a moral relation to one another is absurd. What does it even mean for one object to stand in a moral relationship with another object? It is meaningless.

The ethical skeptic watching this video might feel tempted to ask "Why does God solve the is-ought gap?" and feel as if he won the day. The problem is, that God's commands are not themselves descriptive, but are prescriptive.

Therefore, as an atheist, you must either remain silent like Batman, or speak with cynical greatness like the Joker. Be permitted by Dostoevsky to drink up the sea with Nietzsche.
 
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Alric

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#2
There is one huge flaw in your logic. Since God is a man made creation and his laws were created by men, then any laws God has are in effect no different than any other laws a human decide to make and follow. We don't even need to go into that other stuff, because following Gods laws or any other arbitrary laws set by a man, or created on your own, are all the same.
 

brosil

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#3
Oh Good, Alric has someone to play with.
 

ds_mustang

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#5
God's commands are prescriptive? Which god is that and what commands? I see no commands from any gods, I see men making empty claims about supposed gods of all sorts (claims that conflict too).

So until someone actually proves gods exists and proves what the god commands, claims about god-based morality boils down to baseless nonsense no more supported than saying the frog prince in the pond demands tribute and we must all gather worms.

Wake me up when you can support your unlikely claims, until then I have better things to do.
 

soupbone

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#6
I think most people who get labeled atheists are mis-categorized. For instance, the posters of this board who have seen my posts about the Abrahamic religions probably think im an atheist. But I am completely open to the idea of a god or gods or a creator. In fact I am hopeful for it. I just refuse to believe that its the mass murdering fire breathing dragon from the old testament.

As for the moral thing...

It is categorically, absolutely, positively idiotic to argue that morals can only come from the jew god. A god who commanded (on numerous occasions) the murder of infants, young maidens, family members. Morals come from a jewish supremacist mass murdering psychopath in the sky? Just sit back and think of the logic of that for a second.
 

TAEZZAR

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#7
God's commands are prescriptive? Which god is that and what commands? I see no commands from any gods, I see men making empty claims about supposed gods of all sorts (claims that conflict too).

So until someone actually proves gods exists and proves what the god commands, claims about god-based morality boils down to baseless nonsense no more supported than saying the frog prince in the pond demands tribute and we must all gather worms.

Wake me up when you can support your unlikely claims, until then I have better things to do.
HEY, all you guys, how can more than 3,000 religions in this world, each claiming theirs to be the only true religion, be WRONG ???? :confused:
 

TAEZZAR

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#8
I think most people who get labeled atheists are mis-categorized. For instance, the posters of this board who have seen my posts about the Abrahamic religions probably think im an atheist. But I am completely open to the idea of a god or gods or a creator. In fact I am hopeful for it. I just refuse to believe that its the mass murdering fire breathing dragon from the old testament.

As for the moral thing...

It is categorically, absolutely, positively idiotic to argue that morals can only come from the jew god. A god who commanded (on numerous occasions) the murder of infants, young maidens, family members. Morals come from a jewish supremacist mass murdering psychopath in the sky? Just sit back and think of the logic of that for a second.
Well said, soupbone, well said !!!!

I am temporarily deprived of my thanks button. "THANKS"
 

ds_mustang

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#9
For anyone who doesn't want to plow through all the wordy jargon and name-dropping of the original post, he's basically saying that he has a "prescriptive" objective morality that comes from his god while non-believers cannot make a claim for such a morality. However what he fails to mention is his supposed god is mere speculation (as he can't show it exists) as is any supposed morality based on that god. So he's basically berating other people for not having a basis for a certain sort of morality while not having a basis for his claimed morality either! It's very much like berating someone for not having proof of their god while at the same time being unable to show his god exists.

If the poster wants to support his claim of some superior "prescriptive" morality he needs to actually show the morality exists by proving his god exists, that the god creates/demands a certain morality, that the morality matches what the poster claims, that the god has the authority to make such claims on mankind and their morality, that man should follow the morality commands of this being (which is defining another meta-morality that must exist beyond the morality of the god-given morality--and where does that morality come from?), that the "morality" dictated by a super-being is actually *good* (or that man should follow a "bad" morality), etc., etc. With all that it's no wonder non-believers know not to try to claim a god exists nor some "prescriptive" objective morality.
 
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EO 11110

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#10
look at the leaders of the humanist movement -- you'll find it's just another attack on humanity by the so-called 'chosen'
 

GOLD DUCK

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#11
QWAK,With in EACH is ALL --- With in ALL is EACH --- "ALL is ONE" --- look there to find GOD and INFINITY becomes just part of YOUR BEING who you think you are!:idea::thumbs_up::cheerful:

the DUCK :s9:
 

newmisty

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#12
There is one huge flaw in your logic. Since God is a man made creation and his laws were created by men, then any laws God has are in effect no different than any other laws a human decide to make and follow. We don't even need to go into that other stuff, because following Gods laws or any other arbitrary laws set by a man, or created on your own, are all the same.
Alric GOD is a man made TERM to encompass an idea that is beyond human description.

What has put the earth into motion to spin on it's own axis?

What is pushing the planets around the sun?

What makes the galaxy spin?

How come these cyclical movements do not stop?

What has created and sustained the living beings and the environments that we live in?

Some force(s) has propelled these things and it is a "force" not understood by humankind so we call it various human terms for short. To pretend to understand these forces and what or what they cannot do is to folly.

.
 

TAEZZAR

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#13
Alric GOD is a man made TERM to encompass an idea that is beyond human description.

What has put the earth into motion to spin on it's own axis?

What is pushing the planets around the sun?

What makes the galaxy spin?

How come these cyclical movements do not stop?

What has created and sustained the living beings and the environments that we live in?

Some force(s) has propelled these things and it is a "force" not understood by humankind so we call it various human terms for short. To pretend to understand these forces and what or what they cannot do is to folly.

.
Hard to argue with a well thought out statement as this.

"THANKS"
 

newmisty

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#15
The new steel rake is da bomb!
 

Alric

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#16
What has put the earth into motion to spin on it's own axis?
The solar system was one a giant cloud of spinning material, and over time the material collected and and pushed together due to gravity and that is how all the planets formed. They were spinning when they were created so they continue to spin to this day, because there is no friction to stop their spinning.

What is pushing the planets around the sun?
Gravity pulls the planets towards the sun, while inertia moves the planets in a straight line away from the sun. There is no friction and so nothing to stop the momentum of the planets from moving straight forward. Together the outward force pushing the planets forward and the inward force moving it towards the sun causes the path to curve and so the planets go around and around the sun.

What makes the galaxy spin?
It is basically from the same forces I just describe. It is the combination of things being pushed outwards from the original force of the big bang and gravity pulling things together, that causes them eventually start spinning around each other. Once things start to spin there is nothing to stop it so they continue on forever.

How come these cyclical movements do not stop?
It is because of momentum. Things in motion will always stay in monition unless a force is applied to stop them. On earth things don't go on forever because of friction, but in space there is no friction. If you were to take a ball into space and spin it once with your hand, it would still be spinning a million years from now.

What has created and sustained the living beings and the environments that we live in?
This one is a little harder because an early earth environment can't easily be replicated so it is hard to test things to see how life was created, though there are many theories. Though we understand why animals live today, we get chemical energy from eating each other, and plants get energy from the sun through photosynthesis.

Some force(s) has propelled these things and it is a "force" not understood by humankind so we call it various human terms for short. To pretend to understand these forces and what or what they cannot do is to folly.
The laws of physics, of gravity and momentum are well understood. We actually use the law of physics all the time. If we didn't understand them we couldn't build buildings, or fly planes, or go into space, or do most of the modern things that we can do. So these forces are understood, and there is no reason to call the force god.
 

GOLD DUCK

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#17
QWAK,Alric ,If you EVER have a though of your own:idea: -- it will be somthing to be hold:23_28_100s: :thumbs_up: like watching a NOVA from the front row seats! :idea::thumbs_up::cheerful::ban-cha::banana:

If posable send NOTICE well befor you do so I can pop some corn and get a drink and take in the wonder of somthing so rare and unordenary! :thumbs_up::551::cheerful:

the DUCK :s9:
 

Alric

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#18
You make it sound like learning basics physics is a bad thing. If you want to have good thoughts and ideas, you need to base them on a solid foundation of truth and understanding. If you base your thoughts and ideas out of ignorance, then your ideas are not worth much.
 

GOLD DUCK

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#19
You make it sound like learning basics physics is a bad thing. If you want to have good thoughts and ideas, you need to base them on a solid foundation of truth and understanding. If you base your thoughts and ideas out of ignorance, then your ideas are not worth much.
QWAK,Alric,Original thoughts and ideas:hmmmm2: do NOT come from the Golden book Encyclopedia for children:thumbs_down: --- you need do dig deeper for your answers!:thumbs_up::cheerful::ban-cha::banana:

the DUCK :s9:
 

Alric

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#20
When don't need people getting 'creative' with the truth, that is called lying. I have a lot of original thoughts, but it is pretty silly to reject proven concepts like gravity because someone discovered and wrote about it 350 years ago.
 

GOLD DUCK

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#21
When don't need people getting 'creative' with the truth, that is called lying. I have a lot of original thoughts, but it is pretty silly to reject proven concepts like gravity because someone discovered and wrote about it 350 years ago.
QWAK,Alric,Knowing that rocks fall is not the same as understanding WHY or HOW they fall or describing in your own words rather then words from a childs text book!:thumbs_down:

A little knolage is DANGEROUS --- be carfull you could hurt your self or others!:idea::thumbs_up::cheerful:

the DUCK :s9:
 

Alric

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#22
I did describe it in my own words, and I do understand how gravity and momentum work in the general sense. I admit that I don't fully understand how gravity works on a quantum level but that is hardly needed to understand that the earth is attract to the sun and so is pulled towards it, or that the attraction isn't strong enough to stop the forward momentum of the planet. If I wanted to I could even calculate the strength of which the sun is pulling on the earth, since I know the math as well as it is studied in physics class.
 

GOLD DUCK

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#23
I did describe it in my own words, and I do understand how gravity and momentum work in the general sense. I admit that I don't fully understand how gravity works on a quantum level but that is hardly needed to understand that the earth is attract to the sun and so is pulled towards it, or that the attraction isn't strong enough to stop the forward momentum of the planet. If I wanted to I could even calculate the strength of which the sun is pulling on the earth, since I know the math as well as it is studied in physics class.
QWAK,Alric,You totaly miss the point -- as usual -- you read a caned speach like Obama off a telaprompter and expect recognition for being BRILIENT:idea: but they are just words lacking insight and understanding of the subject and how that subject relates to others like electricity or magnitsem etc. :idea::cheerful:

It is ALL just ENERGY -- E=Mc2 --- we just percieve just a small part of the spectrum as -- solid liquid or gas!:idea::thumbs_up::cheerful:

How and why it clings together or percipitates in to a form:hmmmm2: is the real question that even the greatist minds still do not comprehend --- they are at best -- just guessing!:hmmmm2::thumbs_up::cheerful:

An original IDEA or CONCEPT is as rare as a NOVA --- which was my point! :idea::cheerful: DAUAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa :ban-cha::banana:

the DUCK :s9:
 

Zed

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#24
I am old here and I just wanna make a buck on gold cause nothing much matters anyway! :cheerful:
 

GOLD DUCK

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#25
I am old here and I just wanna make a buck on gold cause nothing much matters anyway! :cheerful:
QWAK,Zed,It is all a projected ilusion :yes: but it seems SOooooooooo real :thumb.aspx: that is sucks us all in to blieving that it is total reality. :alberteinstein: It makes 3D seem like finger painting!:stupido2:

As for the GOLD -- it IS REAL MONEY:thumbs_up: the bucks are what people spend:thumbs_down: --- the GOLD is for SAVING!:idea::cheerful:

the DUCK :s9:
 

Fanakapan

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#26
Holy Cow ! Batman never behaved like that back in the 60's :eek:

Seeing that clip in isolation could almost make one think that there was some message in it, but maybe to do with more Topical matters, such as Torturing the Evil Doers, as opposed to the OP's usage :)
 

GOLD DUCK

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#27
Alric GOD is a man made TERM to encompass an idea that is beyond human description.

What has put the earth into motion to spin on it's own axis?

What is pushing the planets around the sun?

What makes the galaxy spin?

How come these cyclical movements do not stop?

What has created and sustained the living beings and the environments that we live in?

Some force(s) has propelled these things and it is a "force" not understood by humankind so we call it various human terms for short. To pretend to understand these forces and what or what they cannot do is to folly.

.
QWAK,newmisty,the CONCEPT of GOD tends to get metaphysical BUT we have real proof that some beings that were GODLIKE did live on earth very long ago!:idea::thumbs_up:

People did NOT build Puma Punko --- we don't have a clue how it was done.:hmmmm2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6UPQU-vgzk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIZ6Ax9L-ns

We as humans are even today primitive in compasison to who carved and moved the monolithic stones!:hmmmm2::cheerful:

the DUCK :s9:
 

Alric

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#29
Awareness is beneficial to the survival of a living organism, because if it is aware of it's surroundings it can avoid danger, and find things like food. So over time awareness was selected for through the process of evolution. Human level consciousness is more complex version of this same thing that most animals have to some level or another, and is due to our more developed brains.

I believe the first kind of awareness of surrounding came from senses of touch, then later sensitivity to the light. Sensory organs eventually developed into the eye, and as the input became more complex the brain began to form to help spread the information throughout the body. Some point along the line hearing and taste were also included into the sense, I am not sure at which point since I am not really an expert of the order of this. Though taste might of been an early development.

Any way, all those senses connected to the brain and brain became more complex, and when we started using tools the brain became more complex. It is also believe a change in diet might have also contributed to the increase in size of our brains. So the increase in size of complexity has lead humans to be conscious and aware and we have now evolved to the point where we can ponder things far more deeply than just our immediate surroundings.
 

370H55V 0773H

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#30
Holy fcuk Alric, I see you’re having extreme difficulty in articulating simplistic high-school-freshman science; with your never-ending incoherent ramblings. My advice, you need to spend more time in English class, write a few papers, before attempting to play the voice of “reason” and trying to impress folks with your sick science skillz.