• "Spreading the ideas of freedom loving people on matters regarding metals, finance, politics, government and many other topics"

NGC coin grading group now owned by Blackstone/PCGS now owned by Steven Cohen's hedge fund

Krag

Planet earth
Platinum Bling
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
5,759
Reaction score
6,079

coopersmith

for fuck sake..........
Silver Miner
Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Messages
5,499
Reaction score
11,599
Location
ogallala flats
I noticed the new fees earlier this yr, and wondered what was up. Thanks for the info.
 

Buck

Mother Lode Found
Midas Supporter
Mother Lode
Joined
Apr 13, 2011
Messages
24,100
Reaction score
32,411
and now we get a new group of 'experts' and the new labels we'll get to choose from....i mean...think of the profit they'll make, er, the value they'll give to our collections!


especially the ones we 'resubmit' because, of course, no one is certain, that grade on the label is correct, even if it's from the same company...


poof, i smell the smoke coming off of my wallet and i think that's them scheming against me and the rest of us but think of the valuations they're gonna give to our pre-existing coins...wow, i can hardly wait


snark
 

EO 11110

(you) have a message
Survivor
Site Supporter ++
Mother Lode
Joined
Jul 31, 2010
Messages
21,437
Reaction score
24,407
Location
clown world
think the collectors universe deal was posted on here. didnt know ngc fell too
 

Buck

Mother Lode Found
Midas Supporter
Mother Lode
Joined
Apr 13, 2011
Messages
24,100
Reaction score
32,411
i'll have to check, i bought their grandfathered membership package a long time ago that said my yearly price would never increase, i'll have to check on that...
 

Someone_else

Platinum Bling
Sr Midas Sup +++
Platinum Bling
Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Messages
4,078
Reaction score
6,491
Do they certify the precious metal content in my various rounds that I may sell or trade? If not, I do not value their "service". Sure, I love shiny coins, like the Austrian Ducats. And American and Canadians, both silver and gold. I love them. But I don't give a shit about tiny numbers stamped on a coin. That's just my opinion. Some ten thousand year old Egyptian coin would inspire me for the melt value.
 

Buck

Mother Lode Found
Midas Supporter
Mother Lode
Joined
Apr 13, 2011
Messages
24,100
Reaction score
32,411
Do they certify the precious metal content in my various rounds that I may sell or trade? If not, I do not value their "service". Sure, I love shiny coins, like the Austrian Ducats. And American and Canadians, both silver and gold. I love them. But I don't give a shit about tiny numbers stamped on a coin. That's just my opinion. Some ten thousand year old Egyptian coin would inspire me for the melt value.
i'm not certain if they all certify ancients or not but i don't believe PCGS certifies any token unless one of their friends owns one and wants it encapsulated, in that case, get closer to any of the execs and begin to grease the wheels of progress

NGC will certify a few more things than PCGS normally will and ANACS seems to be willing to certify even a few more examples...read the fine print

i've got some modern errors that would have added 20% more to the pcgs total population count but they wanted me to pay them to determine what the error was, same on all the coins, while I argued they already say that because ANACS put it on their label when they certified them, i won't argue that you need to 'grade' them but you don't have to validated them at full price...she said they did

that doubled the price of my ticket, it was then i realized, all they're really doing is sucking all of the value out of my coins

you send in coins expecting to get more value from your coins while they're telling you your coins will sell for so much more, but at some point, i realized, so much of my profits went into their pockets for that certification that if i hadn't paid for their services, and that I had sold those coins raw, i'd nearly be at a break even point PLUS the few dollars i would have profited from selling the coin raw...i gained literally nothing for all the trouble i've been through...fkn 'experts'...


but, that 'story about vaue', that's not really true, mostly because there are so few collectors left, they're really not buying anything these days, so it ends up being worse as i can't get rid of some of the numismatics i currently have...so, value really doesn't matter because 100% of zero is still zero

i said: send 'em back, took two weeks to get them back and i'll just assume i paid full ticket for the shipping coming back but the holders they sent them back in, one was all black and the other had a black top and a blue bottom...

i'm selling the coins as onesies in ANACS holders and that profit is staying in my pocket, eventually i'll sell those plastic holders they included


kinda wandered but my story is in there somewhere...
 

Someone_else

Platinum Bling
Sr Midas Sup +++
Platinum Bling
Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Messages
4,078
Reaction score
6,491
Thanks for the story.
 

<SLV>

Platinum Bling
Sr Site Supporter
Platinum Bling
Joined
Apr 1, 2010
Messages
6,593
Reaction score
11,497
Monopoly
 

MrLucky

Gold Member
Gold Chaser
Midas Supporter
Survivor
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
2,886
Reaction score
4,546
Location
Rock <me> Hard-Place
The end of grading. Make it too expensive to do and less will do it.
 

oldgaranddad

Platinum Bling
Sr Midas Sup +++
Platinum Bling
Joined
Feb 21, 2012
Messages
6,500
Reaction score
14,364
Location
On the top shelf.
Control the grading then you can sell coins to funds who in turn sell shares to the muppets at a nice profit. They tried in the 80s but there were way too many grading organizations to control and it ended badly for all involved. Now we have a virtual duopoly with years of reputation that people blindly trust. The only wrinkle is the post graders like CAC who could cause problems with the ever growing number of grade inflated slabs.
 

Unca Walt

Midas Member
Midas Member
Midas Supporter
Joined
Mar 15, 2011
Messages
16,302
Reaction score
33,831
Location
South Floriduh
race horse/mule
 

EO 11110

(you) have a message
Survivor
Site Supporter ++
Mother Lode
Joined
Jul 31, 2010
Messages
21,437
Reaction score
24,407
Location
clown world

Wellsburg

Gold Member
Gold Chaser
Sr Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Messages
706
Reaction score
1,439
Location
WV Panhandle
better grades on coins for fellow tribesmen?
You beat me to it.

True story about 15 years ago:
I have an acquaintance who is a full-time coin dealer in Allentown, PA.
He bought a raw proof $3.00 gold piece in a collection that came in. Paid $12K. The coin was absolutely perfect, even under magnification.
The coin was easily PR65 and had a good shot at PR66.
He submitted the coin two or three times each to NGC and PCGS and it came back PR64 every time.
Finally, he wholesaled the coin to a big-league dealer at a Baltimore coin show and only made $1,500 profit.
That dealer paid for the "walk through service" at the show and got a PR65 label on the spot.

And that is how the professional grading game works most of the time.
 

Krag

Planet earth
Platinum Bling
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
5,759
Reaction score
6,079
You beat me to it.

True story about 15 years ago:
I have an acquaintance who is a full-time coin dealer in Allentown, PA.
He bought a raw proof $3.00 gold piece in a collection that came in. Paid $12K. The coin was absolutely perfect, even under magnification.
The coin was easily PR65 and had a good shot at PR66.
He submitted the coin two or three times each to NGC and PCGS and it came back PR64 every time.
Finally, he wholesaled the coin to a big-league dealer at a Baltimore coin show and only made $1,500 profit.
That dealer paid for the "walk through service" at the show and got a PR65 label on the spot.

And that is how the professional grading game works most of the time.
Clearly the big submitters such as HA get the better grades.

And there are tactics to get a better grade. Also there is insider activity I have heard of a number of times. They don't want to do ridiculous overgrades, but liners definitely get them. A 64.8 needs to be resubmitted until you get the money grade.
 

Unca Walt

Midas Member
Midas Member
Midas Supporter
Joined
Mar 15, 2011
Messages
16,302
Reaction score
33,831
Location
South Floriduh
Ridiculous. You pay a crooked crook so that your coin will have a higher grade -- a grade fudged upward with a little vigorish applied to the grader.

Not only ridiculous, it is blatantly stupid on top of basically dishonest.

You get the very best almost virgin in the whorehouse for a little more money.
 

Krag

Planet earth
Platinum Bling
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
5,759
Reaction score
6,079
My first submission to NGC included an 1851-O $20 gold piece I had cracked out of a PCGS slab where it was graded AU50, I submitted it through the ANA. It came back as AU58 and was worth over $5000 more!

I got some good and bad grades over the years and some other real surprises.

The currency grading companies can play the same games with arbitrary grading. I had an 1882 $20 brown seal that I sold to a dealer who had a deaf mute who worked on it; next time I saw the dealer he said he was able to get it into the right holder and he sold it for over 4X more, nearly $19K!
 

Buck

Mother Lode Found
Midas Supporter
Mother Lode
Joined
Apr 13, 2011
Messages
24,100
Reaction score
32,411
Control the grading then you can sell coins to funds who in turn sell shares to the muppets at a nice profit. They tried in the 80s but there were way too many grading organizations to control and it ended badly for all involved. Now we have a virtual duopoly with years of reputation that people blindly trust. The only wrinkle is the post graders like CAC who could cause problems with the ever growing number of grade inflated slabs.
collectors universe was sued a short while back for doing exactly this...another reason it was sold


and give it time...those sticker guys are gonna be subsidiaries of these companies, one day


I don't see NGC and PCGS changing the standards
i don't see it as them 'changing grading standards', but rather the fees and the structure those fees are based on will change

and i've found that a lot of the current pricing structures are hard to follow, the fiat charges are even worse, you should go check them out one day, but once you start looking at the bottom line, and then you remember you forgot to add that First Strike label...ka ching for them and a tear for me


...someone will pay for their "expertise"



but i'll admit, i'm not really that interested in locking up tens of thousands of dollars into one coin that Factually has a value that's based upon opinion primarily...



i wish i had been born with that silver spoon i've heard about

:summer:
 

Krag

Planet earth
Platinum Bling
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
5,759
Reaction score
6,079
I'll take my comment on the grading services not changing standards back, they have gotten looser but think of it--they put an M63 ($2200) coin into an MS65 holder and the world of high end imaging will mock them mercilessly and we see plenty of that on the CU forums. Cac is fairly strict because their $$$ behind the sticker is real. I sent them a better date $20 gold coin in an old PCGS holder a few years ago that I paid $2700 for from a CT dealer. I didn't look close enough, "old holder lock upgrade". I sent the coin to cac, they said it was AT/artificially toned. So I sent it to PCGS with the cac owner's comments. 3 months later I get it back after they conserved it. They tried to charge me as if their guarantee was not active. Then I sent it to cac. Cac sent it back to me saying the coin was "tooled"! I sent it back to PCGS with the cac comments and 3 months later their guarantee people contacted me offering a lame option of sending it back to me in a problem holder with a $500 or so check or give me around gold melt for the coin. So I took the first option. I sent it to NGC with other gold coins on their gold rush tier when it was $20/coin. The coin came back as MS63! So a slight profit after all that trouble.
 

oldgaranddad

Platinum Bling
Sr Midas Sup +++
Platinum Bling
Joined
Feb 21, 2012
Messages
6,500
Reaction score
14,364
Location
On the top shelf.
With the ubiquity of high resolution photography and machine learning it won’t be long that a coin can tracked from holder to holder, especially the higher end coins. All those dings, swirls, scuffs and die erosion will be like fingerprints.

Eventually the upgrade game will be over.
 

Fatrat

Midas Member
Midas Member
Site Supporter
Joined
Apr 15, 2018
Messages
7,231
Reaction score
9,140
Somehow I don't the whole field of grading, everyone I talked had some tale of chicanery.