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Platinum?

Avalon

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I offer they view the Periodic Table of Atoms. There is no "Palatium" PM. Sounds like a marketing tool.
Many Class ring makers offer "shinies" - alloys of little value.
Ha, you got me I had to look that one up. Her ring is pretty. I'm not sure why she wanted paladium though.
Palladium is a chemical element with the symbol Pd and atomic number 46. It is a rare and lustrous silvery-white metal discovered in 1803 by the English chemist William Hyde Wollaston. He named it after the asteroid Pallas, which was itself named after the epithet of the Greek goddess Athena, acquired by her when she slew Pallas. Palladium, platinum, rhodium, ruthenium, iridium and osmium form a group of elements referred to as the platinum group metals (PGMs). They have similar chemical properties, but palladium has the lowest melting point and is the least dense of them.

More than half the supply of palladium and its congener platinum is used in catalytic converters, which convert as much as 90% of the harmful gases in automobile exhaust (hydrocarbons, carbon monoxide, and nitrogen dioxide) into less noxious substances (nitrogen, carbon dioxide and water vapor). Palladium is also used in electronics, dentistry, medicine, hydrogen purification, chemical applications, groundwater treatment, and jewelry. Palladium is a key component of fuel cells, which react hydrogen with oxygen to produce electricity, heat, and water.

Ore deposits of palladium and other PGMs are rare. The most extensive deposits have been found in the norite belt of the Bushveld Igneous Complex covering the Transvaal Basin in South Africa, the Stillwater Complex in Montana, United States; the Sudbury Basin and Thunder Bay District of Ontario, Canada, and the Norilsk Complex in Russia. Recycling is also a source, mostly from scrapped catalytic converters. The numerous applications and limited supply sources result in considerable investment interest.
 

Goldbrix

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Ha, you got me I had to look that one up. Her ring is pretty. I'm not sure why she wanted paladium though.
Palladium is a chemical element with the symbol Pd and atomic number 46. It is a rare and lustrous silvery-white metal discovered in 1803 by the English chemist William Hyde Wollaston. He named it after the asteroid Pallas, which was itself named after the epithet of the Greek goddess Athena, acquired by her when she slew Pallas. Palladium, platinum, rhodium, ruthenium, iridium and osmium form a group of elements referred to as the platinum group metals (PGMs). They have similar chemical properties, but palladium has the lowest melting point and is the least dense of them.

More than half the supply of palladium and its congener platinum is used in catalytic converters, which convert as much as 90% of the harmful gases in automobile exhaust (hydrocarbons, carbon monoxide, and nitrogen dioxide) into less noxious substances (nitrogen, carbon dioxide and water vapor). Palladium is also used in electronics, dentistry, medicine, hydrogen purification, chemical applications, groundwater treatment, and jewelry. Palladium is a key component of fuel cells, which react hydrogen with oxygen to produce electricity, heat, and water.

Ore deposits of palladium and other PGMs are rare. The most extensive deposits have been found in the norite belt of the Bushveld Igneous Complex covering the Transvaal Basin in South Africa, the Stillwater Complex in Montana, United States; the Sudbury Basin and Thunder Bay District of Ontario, Canada, and the Norilsk Complex in Russia. Recycling is also a source, mostly from scrapped catalytic converters. The numerous applications and limited supply sources result in considerable investment interest.
Whew, Better, There are scammers in retail especially in the jewelry business where mark-ups of 800 -1000 percent are customary.
 

solarion

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When choosing to invest in a precious metal I think in only one way....how easy/difficult will it be to sell it when and if the time comes to do so? How willing will people be to buy my metal? I'm thinking gold and silver are easy as they're both recognizable as money whereas platinum isn't really viewed by most people in that same context
While liquidity is certainly a factor, and a clear vote in favor of the traditional monetary metals, there are other factors to consider. Gold and silver are massively manipulated because they are monetary metals that can make fiat look like the garbage it is. While platinum too is manipulated, it'd not take much for it to break free, just as palladium did several years back...and has since traded at up to 2x gold. Rhodium is another platinum group metal that has traded between 800 and 30k per ounce just in the past several years...it is a relatively free market not held down by paper counterfeits on the crimex.

If one had converted a portion of their gold and/or silver to palladium and/or rhodium(both PGMs), then they'd have the ability to swap back to a much larger stack of gold and/or silver. Is the same coming for platinum? I don't know, but regression to mean is a thing in statistics and the fundamentals say platinum should be worth significantly more than gold on a supply/demand basis. While platinum is allegedly found at roughly the same proportion as gold throughout the Earth's crust, gold is literally everywhere one looks relative to platinum. The difference in above ground supply is striking. All it would take is a tiny "catalyst" and platinum supply could be squeezed sharply and rise very quickly. This will not be happening with gold...as it has few uses outside of being a monetary metal and plenty of supply available...at the right price.

I stack all of these metals for these reasons, and simply use price ratios to determine where to put new fiat. At this time ratios clearly favor platinum and silver. Palladium, gold, and rhodium are very expensive on a relative basis.
 

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While platinum is allegedly found at roughly the same proportion as gold throughout the Earth's crust
Not quite, but close (as far as part per million go).

Crustal abundance (ppm) 0.000037 (Pt)
Crustal abundance (ppm) 0.0013 (Au)


<heh> I saw what you did there with catalyst
 

solarion

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If accurate, that's 35:1 and means platinum should be worth roughly 60k fiats if gold is worth roughly 1.7k. Those are PPM numbers I've never seen before.

The reality is that nobody really knows how much of any of these metals exist relative to the others, but we do have a sense of how quickly they're being extracted and how much exists above ground. In the case of platinum it's a tiny fraction of the above ground gold and it'd take very little demand increase to cause a tremendous shortfall in supply.

The royal mint here says 4 parts per billion gold and 5 ppb for platinum. Nobody seems to have a damn clue with numbers all over the place.

 

the_shootist

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While liquidity is certainly a factor, and a clear vote in favor of the traditional monetary metals, there are other factors to consider. Gold and silver are massively manipulated because they are monetary metals that can make fiat look like the garbage it is. While platinum too is manipulated, it'd not take much for it to break free, just as palladium did several years back...and has since traded at up to 2x gold. Rhodium is another platinum group metal that has traded between 800 and 30k per ounce just in the past several years...it is a relatively free market not held down by paper counterfeits on the crimex.

If one had converted a portion of their gold and/or silver to palladium and/or rhodium(both PGMs), then they'd have the ability to swap back to a much larger stack of gold and/or silver. Is the same coming for platinum? I don't know, but regression to mean is a thing in statistics and the fundamentals say platinum should be worth significantly more than gold on a supply/demand basis. While platinum is allegedly found at roughly the same proportion as gold throughout the Earth's crust, gold is literally everywhere one looks relative to platinum. The difference in above ground supply is striking. All it would take is a tiny "catalyst" and platinum supply could be squeezed sharply and rise very quickly. This will not be happening with gold...as it has few uses outside of being a monetary metal and plenty of supply available...at the right price.

I stack all of these metals for these reasons, and simply use price ratios to determine where to put new fiat. At this time ratios clearly favor platinum and silver. Palladium, gold, and rhodium are very expensive on a relative basis.
As an investor looking to play the market that's a sound and effective plan. For me, I don't want to work that hard. I only 'invest' in metals in an attempt to shelter some wealth I've accumulated over the years from the manipulation of the dollar and its ultimate collapse. We all buy metals for different reasons and none of them can be called right or wrong. It's what each individual is comfortable doing is what's right for him/her!

Just my usual limited use .02
 
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Voodoo

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Ha, you got me I had to look that one up. Her ring is pretty. I'm not sure why she wanted paladium though.
Palladium is a chemical element with the symbol Pd and atomic number 46. It is a rare and lustrous silvery-white metal discovered in 1803 by the English chemist William Hyde Wollaston. He named it after the asteroid Pallas, which was itself named after the epithet of the Greek goddess Athena, acquired by her when she slew Pallas. Palladium, platinum, rhodium, ruthenium, iridium and osmium form a group of elements referred to as the platinum group metals (PGMs). They have similar chemical properties, but palladium has the lowest melting point and is the least dense of them.

More than half the supply of palladium and its congener platinum is used in catalytic converters, which convert as much as 90% of the harmful gases in automobile exhaust (hydrocarbons, carbon monoxide, and nitrogen dioxide) into less noxious substances (nitrogen, carbon dioxide and water vapor). Palladium is also used in electronics, dentistry, medicine, hydrogen purification, chemical applications, groundwater treatment, and jewelry. Palladium is a key component of fuel cells, which react hydrogen with oxygen to produce electricity, heat, and water.

Ore deposits of palladium and other PGMs are rare. The most extensive deposits have been found in the norite belt of the Bushveld Igneous Complex covering the Transvaal Basin in South Africa, the Stillwater Complex in Montana, United States; the Sudbury Basin and Thunder Bay District of Ontario, Canada, and the Norilsk Complex in Russia. Recycling is also a source, mostly from scrapped catalytic converters. The numerous applications and limited supply sources result in considerable investment interest.

My wife's ring is also made of Palladium. We had a very good local jeweler who also made the ring. I actually somewhat designed the ring and even we so far as to try and make the mold (ha, that didn't go well). But the local jeweler had a guy who made a nice CAD drawing from my markup and made a mold. I also partially paid for the ring with a bar of gold. All in all worked fairly well.

At the time Pd was significantly cheaper than Platinum which is why it was used in jewelry. However, years later we went back to have a prong fixed or something and I chatted with the guy. I had figured it was easier to work with due to a lower melt than Pt but he said it's the opposite. Platinum was really easy to work with even though it required very high heat. Palladium was difficult because apparently it gets brittle when they heat it making things harder. So basically now that Pt is cheaper as well there is no reason to go with Palladium jewelry. It has held up well and still looks good.
 

Avalon

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My wife's ring is also made of Palladium. We had a very good local jeweler who also made the ring. I actually somewhat designed the ring and even we so far as to try and make the mold (ha, that didn't go well). But the local jeweler had a guy who made a nice CAD drawing from my markup and made a mold. I also partially paid for the ring with a bar of gold. All in all worked fairly well.

At the time Pd was significantly cheaper than Platinum which is why it was used in jewelry. However, years later we went back to have a prong fixed or something and I chatted with the guy. I had figured it was easier to work with due to a lower melt than Pt but he said it's the opposite. Platinum was really easy to work with even though it required very high heat. Palladium was difficult because apparently it gets brittle when they heat it making things harder. So basically now that Pt is cheaper as well there is no reason to go with Palladium jewelry. It has held up well and still looks good.
I think we only have one jeweler in the whole city that will deal with sizing palladium. Good thing her ring fit.
 

the_shootist

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I think we only have one jeweler in the whole city that will deal with sizing palladium. Good thing her ring fit.
I never knew one could get a palladium ring nor do I understand why palladium makes a good jewelry metal. I'm fairly new to the element (it is an element, isn't it?) :)
 

Avalon

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I never knew one could get a palladium ring nor do I understand why palladium makes a good jewelry metal. I'm fairly new to the element (it is an element, isn't it?) :)
It used to be a cheaper alternative to platinum. Its really strong and beautiful but like silver a problem to size. Now platinum is cheaper.
 

Voodoo

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I think we only have one jeweler in the whole city that will deal with sizing palladium. Good thing her ring fit.

They not only sized it but cast and made the whole thing. All for a pretty darn good cost. I think it was only $2,000 bucks or so including the $500 CAD drawing.
 

Goldbrix

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While liquidity is certainly a factor, and a clear vote in favor of the traditional monetary metals, there are other factors to consider. Gold and silver are massively manipulated because they are monetary metals that can make fiat look like the garbage it is. While platinum too is manipulated, it'd not take much for it to break free, just as palladium did several years back...and has since traded at up to 2x gold. Rhodium is another platinum group metal that has traded between 800 and 30k per ounce just in the past several years...it is a relatively free market not held down by paper counterfeits on the crimex.

If one had converted a portion of their gold and/or silver to palladium and/or rhodium(both PGMs), then they'd have the ability to swap back to a much larger stack of gold and/or silver. Is the same coming for platinum? I don't know, but regression to mean is a thing in statistics and the fundamentals say platinum should be worth significantly more than gold on a supply/demand basis. While platinum is allegedly found at roughly the same proportion as gold throughout the Earth's crust, gold is literally everywhere one looks relative to platinum. The difference in above ground supply is striking. All it would take is a tiny "catalyst" and platinum supply could be squeezed sharply and rise very quickly. This will not be happening with gold...as it has few uses outside of being a monetary metal and plenty of supply available...at the right price.

I stack all of these metals for these reasons, and simply use price ratios to determine where to put new fiat. At this time ratios clearly favor platinum and silver. Palladium, gold, and rhodium are very expensive on a relative basis.
Maybe the Sun comes out tomorrow. I can wait.
 

Voodoo

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Platinum is a wonderful metal and will have many uses in an advanced society. So unless you are investing for a shift back to the stone age I don't see many problems. Yes, you may not be able to sell it back to another average investor or local LCS, I don't think there will be much of a problem. Larger metal dealers and those with any industrial connections will snap up your Pt, especially if its in tight supply at the time.

I certainly think it has a place in a PM portfolio and one I should be adding to as much as I can.
 

Avalon

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Platinum is a wonderful metal and will have many uses in an advanced society. So unless you are investing for a shift back to the stone age I don't see many problems. Yes, you may not be able to sell it back to another average investor or local LCS, I don't think there will be much of a problem. Larger metal dealers and those with any industrial connections will snap up your Pt, especially if its in tight supply at the time.

I certainly think it has a place in a PM portfolio and one I should be adding to as much as I can.
good post and full of logic , I defiantly think I need some platinum for investment purposes :D
 

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Premiums on Pt have been historically very high due to its difficulty in securing the raw material and processing it into a final form of bullion coins/bars. That trend continues to this day, but Pt premiums are not as ridiculous as in the past compared to some gold and nearly all silver premiums on a % basis today. I'm a small-time buyer of Pt at CRIMEX spot of $1100 and below. You may/will not recoup the premium on the sell side, but there's a lot of potential upside with Pt IMHO.

I'm no expert by any means, but think the following is a solid recommendation converting fake FIAT to PM's:
1. Gold. No explanation needed.
2. Silber and/or Platinum depending on the GSR, PSR ratios. Feinsilber is great until you realize you have enough of that heavy stuff. Trade some silber for a more compact storage of wealth into Au/Pt at your choosing when the ratios say so...Good luck out there folks.
 

Avalon

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I don't know enough to agree to disagree with him but it is interesting.



 

Goldbrix

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"....Would make a great money..." But it is not considered money as Gold & Silver have been for 1000s of years.
While it is On Sale right now why don't you go ahead and get yourself an ounce just to ease for mind.
But as I have said elsewhere when you buy also have exit strategy especially for Pt.

Best Wishes to You,
 

Avalon

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"....Would make a great money..." But it is not considered money as Gold & Silver have been for 1000s of years.
While it is On Sale right now why don't you go ahead and get yourself an ounce just to ease for mind.
But as I have said elsewhere when you buy also have exit strategy especially for Pt.

Best Wishes to You,
LOL, that exactly what I need to do :)
 

Goldbrix

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You won't be happy, happy until you got some Pt in your hands. And you do cover one more base in PMs.
 

the_shootist

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dacrunch

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1/10th oz RECOGNIZABLE coins... Those will ALWAYS have "buyers"...
 

Goldbrix

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WORD to the WISE. CYA
 

Goldbrix

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WORD to the WISE. CYA
 

SongSungAU

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WORD to the WISE. CYA
link to the website:

The Anti-Counterfeiting Educational Foundation (ACEF)


 

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I started stacking platinum in 2018 and I intend to buy at least one ounce a year as long as it remains priced so low relative to gold. Premiums are high but they are just as high if not higher for silver, especially US Mint products. Gold premiums are high too but not as high as platinum. Inflation is affecting how much I can save a month and now I becoming more attracted to platinum. I my dollar cost average starts to top 1k I might consider other metals but that entirely depends upon the premiums....
 

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Not quite, but close (as far as part per million go).

Crustal abundance (ppm) 0.000037 (Pt)
Crustal abundance (ppm) 0.0013 (Au)


<heh> I saw what you did there with catalyst

Correct me if I'm wrong, but platinum has an abundance that is 10X greater than paladium.

I think the comparison to gold is not apt. Platinum and palladium function more as industrial metals today than precious metals. And the auto industry switched over to paladium a decade ago because (then) it was a third of price of platinum even though less efficient checmially.

You might bet that the industry will switch back to platinium, but its expensive to retool and therefore unlikely.
 

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but platinum has an abundance that is 10X greater than paladium.
The abundance of elements in the crust of the earth can be gathered from several different sources. And they do not all completely agree. The periodic table I use lists Palladium Crustal abundance at 0.000037 ppm — same as platinum.

From Wiki-P it shows several different sources.
Abundance.JPG

So, it's kinda up to the interpreter as to what one you like <heh>

BF
 

Voodoo

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but platinum has an abundance that is 10X greater than paladium.

I think the comparison to gold is not apt. Platinum and palladium function more as industrial metals today than precious metals. And the auto industry switched over to paladium a decade ago because (then) it was a third of price of platinum even though less efficient checmially.

You might bet that the industry will switch back to platinium, but its expensive to retool and therefore unlikely.

First, no, Palladium in the crust is about the same as Platinum or slightly greater as noted above. They are both hard to find so you might pay attention to actual production numbers because finding a mineable deposit is a huge task.

Yes, retooling might be expensive, or more likely, difficult because of government Red Tape in trying to prove Pt works.

But, pay attention to Fuel Cells. I think they are more viable than electric vehicles and will/would require at least one or the other metals, possibly both.
 

southfork

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Not sure why pt is so low, pall has taken over the converter market it seems, one would think the car guys would go back to pt as a converter cleaner. I bought some when shtf years back it went to low amount, sold at 1800 on run up same with pall, bought it from 300 to 500 and sold out at 1200 and change. Was going to pick up some pt on this last drop and hesitated, coulda made a nice trade. Snoozed and losed
 

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but platinum has an abundance that is 10X greater than paladium.

I think the comparison to gold is not apt. Platinum and palladium function more as industrial metals today than precious metals. And the auto industry switched over to paladium a decade ago because (then) it was a third of price of platinum even though less efficient checmially.

You might bet that the industry will switch back to platinium, but its expensive to retool and therefore unlikely.

But I have to wonder; didn't they switch from Platinum to Palladium 10 years ago? Then why cant they simply switch back? The too expensive suggestion doesn't seem to be valid as it wast too expensive 10 years ago to switch catalysts.
 

ttazzman

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But I have to wonder; didn't they switch from Platinum to Palladium 10 years ago? Then why cant they simply switch back? The too expensive suggestion doesn't seem to be valid as it wast too expensive 10 years ago to switch catalysts.

i suspect it has to do with the past EPA push ......during trump years the EPA was throttled back....i suspect and speculate with new management and the "green" and electric car push we will see regulation increases resume and thus push catalyst optimization going forward.....pure speculation on my part though
 

Fiat Metaler

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First, no, Palladium in the crust is about the same as Platinum or slightly greater as noted above. They are both hard to find so you might pay attention to actual production numbers because finding a mineable deposit is a huge task.

Yes, retooling might be expensive, or more likely, difficult because of government Red Tape in trying to prove Pt works.

But, pay attention to Fuel Cells. I think they are more viable than electric vehicles and will/would require at least one or the other metals, possibly both.

I'm not invested in either.

About 10-15 years ago, in the early innings of the silver/gold bull, it became difficult to find physical with modest premiums. I came across some palladium at a third or half the price of platinum. At the time, the auto manufacturers world wide were switching from platinum to palladium. I did well on that investment but traded it for gold way too early.

There may be an opportunity to a switch back, I don't know.

I'm really just postinhg to emphasize that the naturual abundance or historical ratios are very tertiary considerations. Things like commercial usage and like you say actual production numbers, and changes in commercial usage and production, will drive the changes in price.
 

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after much consideration and and also talking to several LCD I will skip buying platinum. :(
 

BigJim#1-8

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the_shootist

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EO 11110

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Uncirculated (Burnished) Platinum Eagle Mintages​

Date1 oz.1/2 oz.1/4 oz.1/10 oz.
2006-W3,0682,5772,6763,544
2007-W4,1773,6353,6905,556
2008-W2,8762,2532,4813,706
 

ttazzman

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Will the riots in South Africa hit their Pt or Au production?

possibly.......there production issues in the past have been split between personel and infrastructure problems....in the grand scheme of things since they and russia produce the majority of PT and PL i would expect PT pricing to show us the answer soon...........AU movement will be more a reflection of unrest,war etc since there are plenty of above ground stocks of AU........

just my opinions
 

oldgaranddad

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Will the riots in South Africa hit their Pt or Au production?

Yes. If the largest refinery in SA shut down that means a lot less fuel for mining operations, not to mention the risk of getting fuel to the mines with roving bands of rioters looking for easy targets to take down.
 

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FWIW, for those looking to pick up some Pt, I've done a good deal of research and found that the following have the lowest premiums on popular Pt products:

--1 oz Brittanias: https://www.herobullion.com/2021-1-oz-british-platinum-britannia-coin/
--1 oz Eagles: https://boldpreciousmetals.com/prod.../american-eagle-united-states-mint-pgm-coins/
--1 oz Valcambi bars in assay: https://sdbullion.com/valcambi-platinum-bar-1-oz
--1 oz Random design/year coin: https://sdbullion.com/random-1-oz-platinum-coins Anyone have experience with this product?

Your mileage may vary and good luck out there folks.