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POLL: Are you more likely to vote for a gubernatorial candidate who supports legalizing medical MJ?

gliddenralston

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Medical and Recreational, the feds have to stop fighting the trend...the American people want it ...its no worse than alcohol or all them drugs the hospitals and doctors push...They could pay off the debt and lord knows what else with permits & taxes...and free all the people were paying to have incarcerated because they got caught with a little weed.
 

nickndfl

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Down in Florida we are going for pot and non-Indian casinos. Why not, I would not be a consumer of either.
 

BarnacleBob

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Down in Florida we are going for pot and non-Indian casinos. Why not, I would not be a consumer of either.
Thats the entire crux of the matter, if I dont want to get drunk, I dont drink alcohol. If I dont want to get high, I dont smoke pot. It's all about choice.

I dont smoke pot, that doesnt make it my business & its not my choice as to whether my neighbor uses or not!
 

oldgaranddad

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My state (NY) is in such utter disarray that anyone is better than Il Duce aka Andy Boy Cuomo whether they supported legalization of marijuana or not... then again... in this state they'd probably find someone worse.
 

arminius

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#7
the feds have to stop fighting the trend...the American people want it ...its no worse than alcohol or all them drugs the hospitals and doctors push...They could pay off the debt and lord knows what else with permits & taxes...and free all the people were paying to have incarcerated because they got caught with a little weed.

While all this is true, the problem is all the vested interest built up over the years prosecuting cannabis. Consider just getting the gov to admit it's wrong (in of itself they consider an oxymoron) while it is still making millions off it being illegal.

Stupidity, hypocrisy, and greed created vested interest over a lot of years (bout 80 years) is a tough combination to beat.
 

Joe King

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Thats the entire crux of the matter, if I dont want to get drunk, I dont drink alcohol. If I dont want to get high, I dont smoke pot. It's all about choice.

I dont smoke pot, that doesnt make it my business & its not my choice as to whether my neighbor uses or not!
We also shouldn't look to financially rape our neighbor based upon the choices he makes.
...and I'm not saying you do, Bob. It's just that many times the main selling point for legal weed is, "look how much tax money we can make those people pay". ala Colorado

The only reason it costs as much as it does is for the same reason a deadbeat with a credit card ends up with a 29% interest rate. Ie: Risk.
...and why is there risk? Because the gov made it illegal and put trained killers on the streets looking for it. Now that same gov looks to cash-in on those artificially high prices they created and charge special taxes on and above normal sales tax. It's nothing more than the majority of people making a lesser sized group pay extra for their pursuit of happiness while still under threat of having the goon squad sic'ed on them if they try to not pay the special tax.


On a related note, I think I know how to solve all the govs budget problems. Let's make wheat illegal. Then after a wheat black market develops that charges $1000/bushel, we'll slowly introduce the idea of medicinal wheat and transition to a strictly regulated recreational wheat market with a 35% tax on that $1000 bushel. The govs deficit problem would be fixed!
edited to add:...and the wheat heads will be happy to pay it just to not have the risk they used to face.

Sounds ludicrous, right? So why does that type of thinking work when it comes to weed? If it's gonna be legalized, shouldn't we start by simply rescinding the laws currently prohibiting it and see what the free market does with it? What we have instead is gov attempting to capitalize on the high price they artificially created by meddling in the market to begin with.


Edited to add:...and the same applies to cigs, booze or anything else with a so-called sin tax on it. It's just a way for gov to make a minority group pay more without catching heat for having done it.
 
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Pyramid

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#9
Absolutely. Hemp is a plant that provides tremendous benefits to some with medical issues, as well as providing fiber for clothing, rope, and so forth. Because I or you have no current use for it should not deprive others of it's health or economic benefits as BB and others said above.

The "war on drugs" was horribly misguided and resulted in millions of people incarcerated for minor infractions of the "law," especially when importation of extremely addictive, harmful, synthetic drugs such as opium and cocaine were being coordinated by the CIA and it's deep state operatives.
 
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hoarder

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#10
Medical and Recreational, the feds have to stop fighting the trend...the American people want it ...its no worse than alcohol or all them drugs the hospitals and doctors push...They could pay off the debt and lord knows what else with permits & taxes...and free all the people were paying to have incarcerated because they got caught with a little weed.
If they would use it to pay banksters for issuing fiat out of thin air, I'm against it.
 

Rollie Free

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#11
Harmless, cures cancer, makes great rope.

It just needs to be encouraged to make it legal for children so they too can enjoy the incredible benefits.
This new generation could wipe out cancer and almost all other diseases.
 

arminius

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Harmless, cures cancer, makes great rope.
LOL


Lyrics:

Legend of the U.S.S. Titanic
by Jaime Brockett

"It was back around the turn of the centuries, back around nineteen hundred & thirteen there was a negro pugilist his name was Jack Johnson. Now old Jack Johnson he was the toughest man in the whole wide world he used walk around whoppin' people up side the head 'n makin' all sorts of money.

Like I say ol' Jack Johnson he was a pugilist, he was a pugilist by preference and by profession and one day ol' Jack came walkin' on down by the pierside. He's just walkin on down. His manager come walkin' on down by the pierside.

He says "uh, hi, Jack"
He says "hi manager"
He says "whatcha doin'?"
He says "I'm just walkin' on down by the pierside."
He says "what's up?"
He says "I gotta gig for ya"
He says "ya gotta gig for me?"
He says "that's right"
He says "where abouts?"
He says "over in England"
He says "hmm... what'm I gonna do over there?"
He says "well you goin' up n' whop this guy up side the head n' make all sorts of money."

Ol' Jack says "That's groovy baby. That's really groovy you give me a ticket on the next flight out"
He said "ticket on the next flight out?!? This is nineteen hundred n' thirteen. Why the Wright brothers haven't even started foolin' around with Kitty Hawk yet"
He said "uhh.. who's she?"

It was midnight on the sea, the band was playing "Nearer My God To Thee". Fare thee well Titanic, fare thee well.

Ol' Jack says "Well how'm I gonna get there baby?"
n' He says "ohhh I'm gonna show ya" and he whips open a newspaper n' shows him a picture of the USS Titanic.

Folks, she's the world's biggest ship she's made outta good wood and good iron they said she'd never go down.

He says "you mean I'm goin' over on the boat"
n' he says "that's right baby you're goin on the boat"
n' he says "well, let's go get some tickets so they head on down to the ticket taker's place."

He walks on up to the ticket taker he walks on in n' he says "hey man I wanna buy me some tickets"
He said "gotta red ticket green ticket yellow ticket blue ticket what kinda ticket you want?"
He says "I wanna red one"
He gave him some loot n' he laid it on him.

So here's ol' Jack he's got his ticket now he takes everything he owns he wraps it on up in a diaper n' he hangs it on a stick over his back n' goes headin' on down by the pierside.

He gettin' on down by the pierside his manager's down there by the pierside n' here she is folks - the USS Titanic! She's lined up beside two hundred n' fifty parkin' meters n' the Captain's gettin' done ready to split 'cause he run outta dimes.

Now around this time there was an Italian senator n' the state house n' all Italian senators done got brothers own construction companies n' this one had a brother he owned a construction company n' the Titanic she was made outta good Italian wood, good Italian iron they said she'd never go down.

So there's ol' Jack standin' on the bottom got everything he owns wrapped on up in that diaper hangin' on a stick over his back. He shakes hands with his manager goes walkin' on up the gangplank. The Captain standin' on the top. He get up onto the top n' the Captain he look at the ticket…
he look at the ticket
he look at Jack,
he look at the ticket
he look at Jack,
he look at the ticket
he look at Jack,
he look at the ticket
he look at Jack,
lookita
He says "sorry baby wrong color."
He says "me or the ticket?"
n' he says "you."

Now he wouldn't let Jack Johnson on board
they said this ship don't haul no coal
Fare thee well Titanic,
fare thee well.
It was midnight on the sea,
the band was playin' "Nearer My God To Thee"
Fare thee well Titanic,
fare thee well.

So Jack say's "It's all right baby it's all right I'm gonna sit right here on the pier and watch you go right on down."

So the Titanic she sails on out into the North sea she's out there floatin' around in and out between the icebergs n' ol' Jack's standin' on the pier. I'm gonna tell ya 'bout the people on the Titanic now.

First of all there's a whole bunch of Jewish people from Miami.
They're jumpin' up n' down
They're laughin'.
They're drinkin' booze.
They're tradin' wives
n' Cadillacs
n' diamonds
n' havin' all sorts of good clean party fun.

Then there was the people that run the boat. Now the people that run the boat they know all about runnin' boats.
They know all about hoistin' up land lubbers
n' battenin' down hatches
n' doin' all sorts of other good things
like... all good sailors do in the far away sea.

Then there was the Captain.
Now the Captain he knows how to walk like a captain,
write like a captain,
walk like a captain,
talk like a captain,
smell like a captain,
eat like a captain,
do all sorts of captain things.

Then there was the first mate. Now I gotta tell ya bout the first mate. Now the first mate,
he don't know nothin' about Jewish parties.
He don't know nothing about hoistin' up land lubbers.
He don't know nothin' about captains.
He uh he wants to go on over to England he wants to play his guitar.
He wanna run around n' chase women n' have all sorts of good... times.

Anyways this fella', his sideburns they're just a little too long. He giving way, see. He… he been down in Mexico he been down in Mexico. He been workin' in this rope factory down in Mexico now. Down in Mexico they make rope outta this funny little hemp plant that grows wild in the ground. Some of you people... grow it in flower pots under your bed… ehh Anyways, he's down there and he's… he's makin' rope outta this funny marijuana plant... One day the rope factory she catch fire n' he runs back on in to save his lunch - he's got two sardine sandwiches - runnin' back on in to save his lunch he gets inside n' there's all this funny smoke floatin' around up inside n'.. he gets some of this funny smoke up inside his head n'.. he sit down in the middle o' de' fire n' he say, "shhhhhhhhhhhit baby, I ain't gonna make rope no more!"

So he takes everything he owns he wraps it up on into a diaper and a knapsack too n' he… he headin' on to the Titanic he gets to the Titanic he standin' on the bottom walkin' on up the gang plank n' the Captain's standin' on the top n' the Captain says "What you got boy?"
He says "I'm comin' on"
He says "WHAT YOU GOT!"
He says "well I got me two changes of BVD's. I got me my guitar. I got me my address book, a... pair of socks, 4 masked marvel comic books, a tennis racquet and four hundred n' ninety-seven n' a half feet o' rope."

He says "four hundred n' ninety seven n' a half feet o' rope! whadaya got that for?"

He says.. "I just carry it."

So he says "it's all right. Go on board, go on board" and he did.

It was midnight on the sea,
the band was playin' "Nearer My God To Thee"
Fare thee well Titanic,
fare thee well.
Now he wouldn't let Jack Johnson on board
they said this ship don't haul no coal
Fare thee well Titanic,
fare thee well.

That brings us up to what's happenin' now - the Titanic she's floatin' around in and out between the icebergs, the Jewish people they partyin' they tradin' wives n' Cadillacs n' diamonds they drinkin' booze n' havin' all sorts of party fun, everybody else is hoistin' up land lubbers n' battenin' down hatches, the First Mate he's hangin' over the rail, he's havin' himself a little smoke... he's diggin' the icebergs. havin' himself a little smoke n' it's the Captain's time to do his thing. The Captain comes on out (remember I told you about the captain - he knows how to walk like captain write like captain talk like... all sorts of captain things). He comes on out n' he's standin' now. His thing right now is that he's gotta go out n' test the wind. So he casts his nose up into the north wind n' he goes...... ......



He walks on over to the First Mate.
He says "hey first mate what's that you smokin'?"
He says.. "that ain't nothin' but a little ol' cigarette captain"
n' he says "I don't believe it. Gimme a puff"
n' he says "alright."

So the captain takes himself a little puff. Nothin' happened right away.
He says "it's alright, it's alright. It's just a cigarette. I'm goin' for a walk" And that's what he did, folks. He went for a walk. He went.. he went out walkin' around the boat he went walkin' toward the wheelhouse he.. he walked around.

He walked around the wheelhouse once....... He walked around the wheelhouse twice....... On the third time around the wheelhouse....... The First Mate he looked on over at the Captain n'....... N' he say....... You wanna 'nother toke, Captain?...... And the Captain, he say....... RIGHT!!!!!!!!

So this time he's gonna tell the captain a little bit about this smoke that he's smokin'. He says "now the idea, Captain, the idea is to get this smoke way down deep inside your tummy n' hold it there just as long as you can it'll make you head feel good all inside. So the Captain says alright he takes himself three big tokes off that funny little brown weed n'
He says "I am commencing to hold it in!"

He walked around the wheelhouse.
He went downstairs
He laid down.
He get up he ran in the other room.
He sent a radiogram.
He came on back in.
He took a shower.
He come out.
He shaved.
He laid down.
He got up again.
He turned on the television.
He turned off the radio.
He played a game of cribbage.
He read his masked marvel comic book.
He walked thru the kitchen,
made a cup of tea,
made a cup of coffee,
sat down,
ate a piece of pie,
went upstairs,
played another game of cribbage,
went back in,
finished his other masked marvel comic book,
laid down,
he had the television, the radio, the egg beater, the air conditioner n'everything's all goin' at once. He walks up on deck and this is fifty two minutes later n' this cat ain't breathed yet!

So the First Mate see him standin' up there on the rail he's all puffed up like a balloon!
He says "ya gotta let it out, Captain!

So the Captain he let it all out at once.

Fallin' right down on the wheelhouse floor. He's out cold.

O-h-h-h, this just brings us up to what's happenin' again folks. The Titanic she's sailin' around in between the icebergs. Every body else is havin parties. The Jewish people they jumpin' up n' down they tradin' wives n' Cadillacs n' diamonds n' drinkin' booze. Everybody else is hoistin' up land lubbers, battenin' down hatches n' doin' sail things. The First Mate's hangin' over there on the rail havin' himself a little smoke n' diggin' icebergs. And the Captain's out cold on the wheelhouse floor.

It was midnight on the sea,
the band was playin' "Nearer My God To Thee"
Fare thee well Titanic,
fare thee well.
Now he wouldn't let Jack Johnson on board
they said this ship don't haul no coal
Fare thee well Titanic,
fare thee well.

All of a sudden.... the Captain's eyes popped wide open. He stood right up straight..... Grabs a hold o' de wheel.... Looks on out at the bow o' dat boat n' he say "I'M GONNA MOVE YOU BABY!"

And he did right on into an iceberg n' she went right on down.

It was midnight on the sea,
the band was playin' "Nearer My God To Thee"
Fare thee well Titanic,
fare thee well.
Now he wouldn't let Jack Johnson on board
they said this ship don't haul no coal
Fare thee well Titanic,
fare thee well.

That's the true story of the Titanic, folks. She went right to the bottom. She took with her all the Jewish people, all the first mates. She took with him the Captain. She took with him the land lubbers. She took with him the masked marvel comic books, the tennis racquet and four hundred n' ninety-seven n' a half feet o' rope.

Meanwhile back on the stateside, ol' Jack Johnson… why he's standin' up on the pier he's fishin' away he's got himself a little stick n' a line n' he gets a tug he pulls it on up n' it's a big wet blue soggy mess n' on the inside on the lining written in big gold letters it says "USS Titanic" and stuck right above it was a wet roach.

That boy was so happy he started doin' the eagle rock up n' down that pier like it's goin' outta style he go... He gonna do the eagle rock now everybody in for the eagle rock. Oh rock!

It was midnight on the sea,
the band was playin' "Nearer My God To Thee"
Fare thee well Titanic,
fare thee well.
Now he wouldn't let Jack Johnson on board
they said this ship don't haul no coal
Fare thee well Titanic,
fare thee well.

Fare thee well Titanic goin down!"
 

Rollie Free

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#13
An experiment like no other is America,

Destroyed families, semi-orphaned, family confused children and inebriated adults. Many of them idle and a 'hot mess'.

My wife's nephew(complete with 420 tattoo) sired a child. Broke up with the mother, relinquished rights. Sired another, broke up with the mom. Sired a third, this women has 4 children with three different kids. Sounds like they are now going to break up. Trying to document a family tree at this point would be an exercise in insanity. This is one example but its run rampant.

Children everywhere with no sense of belonging to anything. This isn't rare. Its become the norm and it will spread geometrically as the lost children commit the sins of their fathers geometrically. The more we become this hot mess the more inebriation we seek. The more inebriation the hotter the mess.
No on has a lick of sense anymore. Looking for false nirvana. Looking for a buzz or no feeling at all.

As someone involved in the foster care system I see the results of all this. Recreational drugs aren't about what one guy is doing in his home. It doesn't end there. That's a real nice thought but has no basis in reality. I am involved with children who have been ripped from their identity because their parent(s) do not do well with drugs. There are lots of them and we're just getting started.

Its nice to paint a noncommittal picture that this isn't your problem, or anyones problem. Who is going to make this better? Who is going to pay for this?

Your 'rights' don't absolve themselves at your front door. They force others to suffer.
 

Joe King

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#14
I am involved with children who have been ripped from their identity because their parent(s) do not do well with drugs.
Or is really because the 'rents are just f' ups and if it wasn't drugs, it'd just be some other reason they ended up neglecting their kids?
 

Silver

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#15
Harmless, cures cancer, makes great rope.

It just needs to be encouraged to make it legal for children so they too can enjoy the incredible benefits.
This new generation could wipe out cancer and almost all other diseases.
I know you are being factious, but children are being put on Meth (ritalin - methylphenidate hcl), Adderall (Amphetamine and dextroamphetamine) like it is candy. I don't think it a coincidence that we have a Meth crisis, and it is not a big leap to use other drugs like opiates when drug use is forced on children at very young ages.

My understanding is that in states where cannabis is legal, hard drug use is down, even with the opiate crisis sweeping through the nation with over 60,000 deaths last year.

Even children put on meth would be better off with low dose cannabis edibles (where they don't get high but calms them down) than the hard drugs they are being prescribed by doctors.

I don't think children should use anything, period -vigorous exercise (so tired they collapse in bed at night), good diet, fresh air, and sunshine is what I prescribe.
 
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arminius

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#16
I know you are being factious,
Perhaps he's trying to be facetious, but everything he said in that post is true, until the second post/rant just above, which incidently had nothing to do with cannabis, except for a 420 tattoo.

Cannabis will help you cure cancer, and will help you cure just about anything cureable if you know how to work with it.

I know of more than a few children who's lives are innumerably better on cannabis for their medical problems, and it's the whole family who benefits. Of course we're talking about sick kids who need medical help, not normal kids.
 
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arminius

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#17
Adjuvant: A substance that helps and enhances the effect of a drug, treatment, or biologic system.

This is all Cannabis is. It is a substance that (ok somehow) increases your biologic system to become more efficient in healing yourself...

Magic? Who cares, it works.

That's all cannabis is. It causes no harm, unless you want to harm yourself. If you want to be paranoid, it will increase that feeling.

If you want to have fun and giggle, it will increase that feeling.

If you want to heal yourself, no matter what your medical problem, it will help you.

Ya, I get that this is beyond the ken of all too many in today's everything is just a rock world, but the intense (not only not needed, but harmful to ourselves) negativity regarding it is, well, media induced moron-ism...
 
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spinalcracker

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#18
There is so much to learn...but that won't happen until cannabis is taken off of Schedule 1 status......

The Ensemble Effect, Not the Entourage Effect, Says Dr. Grinspoon.......
It’s a popular theme in marijuana use – the “entourage effect.” It’s defined as the broad-spectrum sense of wellness derived from consuming an unaltered or concentrated form of cannabis. All the natural chemicals found in cannabis are ingested simultaneously.

Any single chemical in isolation does not perform in the same way that a substance will when associated with other chemicals found in the original, natural source. The three primary components of the marijuana chemical cocktail include CBD, THC and the phytocannabinoid group of terpenoids.

CBD by itself performs different than CBD in conjunction with THC, and both perform differently when in the presence of terpenoids. Marijuana’s strength and effect varies by strain based on the ratio of these three components, among other factors.

“It’s a mixture of CBD, cannabidiol, THC and the phytochemicals, the terpenoids,” says Harvard Professor, Dr. Lester Grinspoon. “You need all three of them to get the best therapeutic effect.”
 

Mujahideen

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#19
An experiment like no other is America,

Destroyed families, semi-orphaned, family confused children and inebriated adults. Many of them idle and a 'hot mess'.

My wife's nephew(complete with 420 tattoo) sired a child. Broke up with the mother, relinquished rights. Sired another, broke up with the mom. Sired a third, this women has 4 children with three different kids. Sounds like they are now going to break up. Trying to document a family tree at this point would be an exercise in insanity. This is one example but its run rampant.

Children everywhere with no sense of belonging to anything. This isn't rare. Its become the norm and it will spread geometrically as the lost children commit the sins of their fathers geometrically. The more we become this hot mess the more inebriation we seek. The more inebriation the hotter the mess.
No on has a lick of sense anymore. Looking for false nirvana. Looking for a buzz or no feeling at all.

As someone involved in the foster care system I see the results of all this. Recreational drugs aren't about what one guy is doing in his home. It doesn't end there. That's a real nice thought but has no basis in reality. I am involved with children who have been ripped from their identity because their parent(s) do not do well with drugs. There are lots of them and we're just getting started.

Its nice to paint a noncommittal picture that this isn't your problem, or anyones problem. Who is going to make this better? Who is going to pay for this?

Your 'rights' don't absolve themselves at your front door. They force others to suffer.
I get your point but granting the government the power of a police state isn’t the answer. The police state and black market and what comes with that has done incredible damage to families. And on top of that, it clearly does not work. We have had the drug war my entire life and drugs are all over the place.

The best way to fight deadbeat drug users who neglect their children is to have society shame them, and to educate children about drugs harmful effects.

You can pick up your bible teach people or a use science book or whatever, but giving politicians who don’t even care about these problems the power to enforce them is like taking medicine that is worse than the disease.
 

FunnyMoney

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#20
I wonder when we get to the root causes in this thread, because the 6 or 7 (or more) posts above are all correct and yet there's conflicting arguments in each.

How can these opposing arguments be correct all at the same time? Could it be we are debating inside the matrix? Could it be the root causes are not part of the debate?

A functioning, honest, healthy society starts with a functioning, honest, healthy financial structure. Work that pays in silver. Taxes which come from extremely prosperous people paying out of free will, not at the point of a gun. Fix the society at the root core, the wealth , the economic and financial systems then you will see families and individuals helping out and making better choices.
 

arminius

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#21
Here's a root cause for ya:


The Amazing Rise and Fall of a Rodent Utopia


Human beings seem to have a tendency to take our society for granted. We expect that rules will be followed and that the comfortable world around us will continue to run smoothly as it always has. Even as the populations of major cities around the world soar, we trust that society will stand strong under the weight of so many souls and guide us towards a prosperous future. Those who lead comfortable lives become complacent, confident in their place in the world, their purpose, and their legacy. What many do not understand is just how thin a thread the balance of society often teeters upon and just how close the tipping point may loom. In 1972, one animal behaviorist by the name of John Calhoun got a frightening glimpse of what potential mayhem lurks behind the shiny veneer of our civilized society when he created a utopian paradise for rats that spectacularly disintegrated before his eyes, and shone a light on the dark forces that influence us at the basest levels.

John Calhoun was an ethologist and animal behaviorist who had had a long standing interest in how rodents interact and create societies. Starting in 1947, Calhoun began experimenting with rats and mice on a rural property in Rockville, Maryland in order to investigate the behavioral effects on the animals when provided with unlimited food and resources; essentially a rodent paradise. One of his main interests was the potential effects of overcrowding on human society and behavior, which was seen as a very real potential problem in the post-war 1940s, where worldwide populations were growing rapidly. In his early experiments, Calhoun observed a colony of Norway rats for 28 months, during which time he provided the animals with as much food as they needed as well as total safety from predators. It was expected that the population would skyrocket uncontrollably to around 5,000 animals during this period of time, however, the population oddly never went past 200. He also noticed that the colony split into smaller, separate groups of no more than 12 individuals per group.


John B. Calhoun – ethologist and behavioral researcher

Intrigued by these results, Calhoun continued his work with rats and mice, and finally in 1958 he created his own lab in the second floor of a barn from which to launch his most ambitious series of experiments yet, which consisted of creating a series of what he called “Universes” which were habitats designed to be rodent utopias, free of disease, predators, and providing unlimited resources. In each instance, the rodent populations experienced a rapid rise in population followed by a levelling off that seemed to go hand in hand with a variety of unusual, deviant behaviors, before finally the birthrate screeched to a halt, after which the rodent society would implode and cease to exist.

Calhoun would write a prominent paper on the experiments in 1962 calledPopulation density and social pathology, which was published in Scientific American and outlined his observations of the effects of overcrowding on rodent behavior. In the paper, he coined the term “behavioral sink,” which referred to societal collapse in the face of behavioral degradation and signifying a point of no return leading to extinction marked by a reversion to deviant acts caused by overcrowding. The paper would put the sobering potential effects of overpopulation into the public consciousness and people were already comparing the findings made in these early experiments to human society. This paper became incredibly influential in the field of psychology and is still heavily referenced to this day.


A schematic of one of Calhoun’s early experiments.

These experiments culminated in Calhoun’s most famous and ambitious experiment of them all, “Universe 25.” Calhoun created a complex, controlled environment that was a large room that measured 2.7 meters square and was split into 4 separate interconnected pens. Surrounding this Universe were 16 tunnels leading to food, water, and various burrows, and there was a total of 256 “apartments,” each able to accommodate up to 15 mice, all connected for easy access by a series of ramps. Four breeding pairs of mice were introduced to this spacious enclosure and were given unlimited, easy access to food and water. This sort of habitat was referred to as a “mortality-inhibiting environment,” basically with the aim of limiting transmittable diseases, providing limitless food, water, nesting material, and other valuable resources, and basically doing everything possible to make sure the rats didn’t die or face any real discomfort; in essence emulating the conditions of many humans in similar environments. The temperature was kept at a constant, balmy 20 degrees Celsius or more, and the mice had free reign to roam wherever they liked within the habitat. Throughout the whole experiment the enclosure would be kept clean and disease free, with the health of the mice constantly monitored by veterinarians. The only limitation faced by the mice would be that of physical space. Then Calhoun sat back and waited to see what would happen.

The rodents first spent around 104 days getting accustomed to their environment, a phase that Calhoun referred to as the “strive period,” or an initial period of adjustment when the mice were basically just establishing territories and creating nests. Then the mouse population at first began to increase at a rapid rate just as predicted, a phase that was called the “exploit period.” During this phase, the mouse population of Universe 25 roughly doubled every 55 days until by day 315 their numbers had reached 620. At this point, the large enclosure was becoming a bit crowded in some places and the birthrate plunged to a much lower rate, about one third of what it had been before. It was also noticed that food was being consumed more in certain areas, despite the fact that all of the compartments were identical. The mice began to associate eating and drinking with being with others, rarely if ever eating alone, and the population started to gravitate towards certain compartments where all of the eating took place. This made some apartments and compartments crowded well beyond their intended capacity while others remained sparsely populated or even empty. The enclosure wasn’t truly overcrowded, as it had been designed for up to 3,000 mice, but rather, it had developed a very unbalanced distribution of individuals. This persistent gathering and eating in overcrowded gathering points seemed to result in three times more socially immature mice than socially established ones, suggesting that they were somehow losing their ability to form social bonds. That was around the time when the perfect society of unlimited resources that Calhoun had so meticulously created began to crumble.


Universe 25

From around Day 315 of the experiment, a wide variety of odd behavior started to surface among the animals. Some male mice who had no social role in the face of the burgeoning population suddenly seemed to lose their sense of purpose and became detached from these natural roles. They stopped trying to defend their own territory or pregnant females, lost interest in those around them, and whereas they would normally emigrate to other broods they found none willing to accept them and so became listless wanderers tending to congregate in the center of the Universe where they spent their days mindlessly eating or fighting amongst themselves. These males were seen as the “outcasts” of the society. The more dominant males among these became markedly more vicious and violent, attacking others without provocation and fighting for no apparent reason. Many of these roving males would roam about attacking or mounting, essentially raping, other mice indiscriminately, regardless of gender or relation. The non-dominant males conversely became extremely meek and passive, with some of them becoming the targets of repeated attacks by other males while refusing to fight back. In some cases, cannibalism occurred among the mice, and there was generally a descent into feral, violent behavior punctuated by intense bursts of shocking brutality.

The female mice were not having much more luck. In the absence of any males willing to protect their nests, mothers began to become highly aggressive towards trespassers, essentially taking on the role typically reserved for the males. Unfortunately, this went into overdrive. Young mice were banished before they were weaned and often mothers ignored their young or seemingly forgot about them. Some females became unusually aggressive towards even their own offspring and would even sometimes attack and kill their own young, while others became morose hermits who refused to mate. All of this led to a quickly sinking birthrate and an infant mortality rate of over 90% in some areas of the enclosure. This era of bursts of explosive violence and hypersexual behavior came to be known as the “stagnation phase,” or “equilibrium period.” Calhoun speculated that a lack of social roles to fill combined with constant, unwanted social and physical contact in the face of the increased population density was at the root of the aggression, withdrawal, and sexual deviancy.



The final phase of the experiment was ominously referred to as “the death phase” or “die period.” By Day 560, the population increase had plunged to next to nothing, partly due to the alarming mortality rate that had reached nearly 100% and partly due to a disinterested attitude towards procreation that began to be exhibited in many of the male mice. Amid all of this turmoil and degradation within Universe 25, there was also a new generation of mice emerging that had not ever been subjected to a normal social upbringing and showed absolutely no interest in fighting, courtship, mating, raising young, or much of anything really. Calhoun referred to this aberrant group of mice as “the beautiful ones.” These “beautiful ones” were completely detached from society, had completely lost touch with normal mouse behavior, and spent all of their time eating, sleeping, or incessantly grooming and preening themselves, leading them to having a fine, robust, healthy appearance with keen and alert eyes, hence their name. Calhoun often referred to these mice as “handsome,” however, their beauty was truly only skin deep. Inside they were empty. The beautiful ones lived peacefully secluded and withdrawn from the rest of the society in the less crowded areas; eating, sleeping, avoiding conflict, grooming, and not mating in any way, and seemed to be spared any violence that broke out among the other mice, yet they did nothing to further the society either. They had essentially lost all of their desire to interact with others and spent their days in a lackadaisical daze.

Calhoun liked to refer to this drastic detachment and lack of will to participate in society as the “first death,” or basically the death of the animal’s spirit, which would occur before the “second death,” or physical death of the body. Once this “first death” was reached, the mice were no longer really mice anymore but rather empty husks merely killing time awaiting the inevitable death of their body and an end to their pointless existence. They had in a sense lost all will to live in any useful manner.

Calhoun would later muse on the reasons behind the rise of these “beautiful ones,” these mice which were healthy in appearance yet had died in spirit. He theorized that mice were in many respects like mankind, and that in the absence of any tension, pressure, or stress they had lost their focus and sense of purpose and identity. With an overabundance of vital resources and no need to do anything to obtain them, the need for societal roles or jobs had faded, leaving the mice in a state of being unable and/or unwilling to perform all but the most basic functions of sustaining physiological life such as eating and sleeping. In essence, the thinking was that these mice, and indeed it could be inferred human beings as well, required conditions of stress, pressure, obstacles, and a clear purpose in order to have a destiny and a desire to engage in society.



With the majority of mice becoming those who refused to mate, engage others, or indeed perform any useful societal functions at all, the population increase of Universe 25 ceased altogether, with the last conception recorded at Day 920. By this time the population had reached its peak of 2,200 individuals, which was somewhat crowded but still well under the enclosure’s maximum capacity of 3,000. With zero population increase, a shocking mortality rate, and a majority population now completely disinterested in procreation and living on the upper levels of the enclosure in seclusion, the rest of the remaining mice were still forming marauding gangs, congregating into crowded areas and devolving into a morass of endemic violence and cannibalism, with many of them completely missing tails or exhibiting brutal battle scars. Bear in mind that even at this turbulent point in time, the mice still had free access to all of the food and resources they could ever need. This was the unstoppable slide to catastrophe, the point of no return, the “behavioral sink” that Calhoun had talked about, and the mouse utopia’s apocalypse came crashing down as all of these factors conspired to cause the population to start barrelling rapidly towards extinction until there were none left. Universe 25 hd ceased to exist.

Calhoun was alarmed by the spectacular descent into ruin of the colony, and before the apocalyptic end of the “death phase,” he removed a few of the “beautiful ones” for the purpose of seeing if they could reintegrate into a mouse society under different conditions. A few small groups of these “beautiful ones” were removed from Universe 25 and placed in equally ideal conditions, yet with a small population and unlimited space. They were essentially placed in more or less the same conditions that had been faced by the original breeding pairs of Universe 25, and it was expected they would snap out of their daze and begin populating the new habitat, in essence rebuilding society. Calhoun and associates were somewhat taken aback when the displayed absolutely no change in their previous behavior. They continued to show a complete disinterest in social interactions or reproduction, and refused to mate, which led to no new births in the new habitat whatsoever. In the end, this small group of mice died of old age, having never shown the slightest interest in repopulating or rebuilding their society, despite living in ideal conditions. Calhoun would conclude his study on an ominous note, saying:

For an animal so simple as a mouse, the most complex behaviors involve the interrelated set of courtship, maternal care, territorial defense and hierarchical intragroup and intergroup social organization. When behaviors related to these functions fail to mature, there is no development of social organization and no reproduction. As in the case of my study reported above, all members or the population will age and eventually die. The species will die out. For an animal so complex as man, there is no logical reason why a comparable sequence of events should not also lead to species extinction. If opportunities for role fulfilment fall far short of the demand by those capable of filling roles, and having expectations to do so, only violence and disruption of social organization can follow. Individuals born under these circumstances will be so out of touch with reality as to be incapable even of alienation. Their most complex behaviors will become fragmented. Acquisition, creation and utilization of ideas appropriate for life in a post-industrial cultural-conceptual-technological society will have been blocked. Just as biological generativity in the mouse involves this species’ most complex behaviors, so does ideational generativity for man. Loss of these respective complex behaviors means death of the species.


Calhoun and his mice

Calhoun’s findings and observations on Universe 25 were published in the rather spookily titled paper Death Squared: The Explosive Growth and Demise of a Mouse Population, which immediately shot into the public consciousness and became at once controversial and a sobering look into what could happen to humans as well. It was also widely misinterpreted and misunderstood. The public mostly took the findings in a negative way, and with the country as it was at the time why wouldn’t they? After all, the Universe 25 study was done at a time when the population was soaring, urbanization was burgeoning, and at around the same time as incidences of urban violence such as the Watts Riots in 1965 and widespread civil unrest across the country in in the wake of the Martin Luther King Jr. assassination in 1968. Everywhere one turned it seemed that there was some riot, mass panic, outbreak of violence, or other signs of an imminent breakdown of social order stemming from the crowd, and Calhoun’s study of Universe 25 seemed to eerily mirror the world that seemed to be unravelling around them.

The study seemed to confirm the public’s darkest fears; that society had reached a tipping point towards disaster and that overcrowding directly equated to doom and degeneracy, nihilism and inevitable collapse. In certainly didn’t help matters that various books and movies were being released at the time that approached this topic in a negative way, such as Soylent Green in 1973, which depicts an overpopulated society unknowingly being fed the remains of the dead, as well as the book A Clockwork Orange in the 60s with its roving gangs of directionless, ultraviolent hooligans, among many others. In light of all of this, Calhoun’s paper became a dire warning, an omen even, of things to come and fueled a particular bleak, pessimistic public attitude.

Yet for all of this apocalyptic talk of looming societal collapse and Calhoun’s own somber, portentous wording, he in fact did not really intend to prove that overcrowding and lack of social roles would irreversibly lead to the inevitable downfall of mankind. Certainly Calhoun saw his mice as a social, psychological and physiological model for humankind, and his liberal use of anthropomorphic terminology such as “apartments,” “tower blocks,” “dropouts,” “juvenile delinquents,” and “beautiful ones” reflected that, but his real intentions were actually more positive than they seemed to most who had read his work. Although he saw the fate of his mice as a metaphor for the potential fate of humankind, Calhoun was more interested in how human beings had the power to reverse this trend; to heal, and to overcome the type of spiraling collapse that had befallen Universe 25. He even famously said himself:

I shall largely speak of mice, but my thoughts are on man, on healing, on life and its evolution. Threatening life and evolution are the two deaths, death of the spirit and death of the body.



Calhoun was dismayed that his work had been embraced by the portion of society that saw nothing but hopelessness in store for mankind, yet he tried to clarify his intent and put a positive spin on it. He was quick to point out that Universe 25, with its unlimited infinite resources in a limited space, was a decidedly unnatural environment and that it did not necessarily reflect the reality that we were faced with. He further theorized that mankind had averted a similar catastrophe because, unlike the mice, we have a different psychological sense of space and exhibit an understanding of what he called “conceptual space,” which meant that we are able to utilize ideas for the purpose of mining resources and guiding social interactions. In short, he believed that mankind’s self-awareness and knack for creativity and design could solve our problems and help us avoid the fate of the mice of Universe 25. Calhoun had even observed this among the mice to some extent, noting that the ones that had become resourceful and creative, as well as those more able to handle social interactions, had been the ones most likely to survive the world crumbling around them. In spite of the negative connotations related to his work, Calhoun remained hopeful that mankind could utilize our innovation, creativity, imagination, and positivity to overcome our limitations. However, not everything was a cheerful, sunny vision of the future.

For all of his optimism for the future and faith in mankind’s ability to change it, Calhoun still warned that in spite of our sophistication and intelligence as a species, we still faced grave danger if we did nothing to change the way our cities operated. He still insisted that human society would face explosive collapse once the number of people capable of filling societal roles dramatically exceeded the number of roles available. The behavioral sink still loomed threateningly over us, and Calhoun maintained that once humanity had reached this event horizon, pathological behavior and deviancy would spiral out of control and we would have reached a tipping point from which there would be no return, just as had happened with the mice of Universe 25. If we reached that point, he theorized, we were doomed.



In order to avoid that doom, Calhoun continued his work well after the fall of Universe 25 with the intent of finding ways to minimize the negative effects of overcrowding and simultaneously maximize creativity. One of his more unusual ideas was to promote space colonization to advance our society, even going so far as to organize a multidisciplinary group called the Space Cadets to research and advocate this, but he also focused closer to home. There was the strong belief that the way we lived could be profoundly impacted by the way cities were designed. He wanted to find ways to creatively change our behaviors and how our cities were designed in order to promote innovation and positive interaction between us, and to prevent stagnation so that we would not reach that dreaded behavioral sink that would spell our certain extinction. To this end, Calhoun would go on to create over 100 additional rodent Universes and his work would become influential in city planning philosophies all over the world.

So where does this leave us as a species? In modern times more than half of the Earth’s population is packed into ever growing, ever more crowded cities. Is our rapidly urbanized society really as unshakeable and stable as we like to think it is? Are we experiencing the same effects that befell Universe 25 and if so, which phase are we at? If we do not change how we think about each other, our surroundings, and the way we live are we going to emerge unscathed or are we already firmly into the rut that will send us careening past the point of no return to a dismal end? Is it already too late? No matter how much stock one puts into Calhoun’s findings and how they relate to human society, the rise of the utopia of Universe 25 and its spectacular descent into hell certainly seems worth pondering. As the world population hurtles towards an estimated 9.6 billion people by 2050, it seems that there are perhaps some profound messages on the nature of our society and psyche to be found here that may help us come to an understanding of how safe we really are and what we can do to improve our world.
 

arminius

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#22
There is so much to learn...but that won't happen until cannabis is taken off of Schedule 1 status......
Which allows the feds to profit further in their canna-holocoast.

The Ensemble Effect, Not the Entourage Effect, Says Dr. Grinspoon.......
We have a ways to go in figuring out the flavors, but I believe (as does he) it's understanding and utilizing the symbiosis between canna and you. That's the key...
 

Joseph

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#24
Medical and Recreational, the feds have to stop fighting the trend...the American people want it ...its no worse than alcohol or all them drugs the hospitals and doctors push...They could pay off the debt and lord knows what else with permits & taxes...and free all the people were paying to have incarcerated because they got caught with a little weed.

It's not the Theory of Relativity ...

drugs2.jpg
 

Joseph

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#25
I wonder when we get to the root causes in this thread, because the 6 or 7 (or more) posts above are all correct and yet there's conflicting arguments in each.

How can these opposing arguments be correct all at the same time? Could it be we are debating inside the matrix? Could it be the root causes are not part of the debate?

A functioning, honest, healthy society starts with a functioning, honest, healthy financial structure. Work that pays in silver. Taxes which come from extremely prosperous people paying out of free will, not at the point of a gun. Fix the society at the root core, the wealth , the economic and financial systems then you will see families and individuals helping out and making better choices.
You appear to have your very own conflicting arguments, FM . Taxes which come from extremely prosperous people .... I've heard that somewhere before, I think ....
 

Mujahideen

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#26
All true, but again, not about cannabis...
I believe most drug arrests are over pot; I will take it a step further and say that most pot smokers are trying to self medicate themselves.

My aunt had a stroke and is not able to speak. She gets very angry, the only time she seems mellow is when she is smoking weed.

But the government will try to lock her up in a cage for doing so, this is very fucked up. Smoking weed to relieve stress isn’t seen as medical.
 
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FunnyMoney

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#28
You appear to have your very own conflicting arguments, FM . Taxes which come from extremely prosperous people .... I've heard that somewhere before, I think ....
Sorry about that. I'm the one who coined the phrase at GIM1, "taxes should be a four letter word."

What I meant to say in the post was "funding for a good idea for said community or peoples or nation"

You've read my posts enough around these parts, so I'm pretty sure you got the main ideas. But thanks for bringing this up and I'm often typing faster than thinking, sorry again.
 

FunnyMoney

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#29
Here's a root cause for ya:

...The Amazing Rise and Fall of a Rodent Utopia ....
I disagree!

I've read that several times before. My conclusions posted above can still be derived as stated even taking into account that study.
This study appeared at GIM1 as well, you may have been the one to post it, I don't remember.

But it is flawed to use it the way you are suggesting.

I believe the study is thrown out there for CO.
It basically points to over-population. But my root causes posted above are what is causing the similar symptoms, not over-population or crowded city environment.

It is the dysfunctional city and social envronment which is coming from the dysfunctional systems, especially the corruption of liberty via the corruption of financial and monetary systems.

We are not identical to rats in every way. The study can be negated by looking at functional but still very crowded environments.

The world is a big place, we are a long way from over-population of humans and humans have a spirit which functions very differently than a rat's. Animals were not created in the image of GOD and they do not contain the HOLY SPIRIT connection with their Creator the same way we do. We are vastly more powerful than the animals. To say we simply fall into a certain behavior because that's what the animals do is a very flawed argument. Animals are a long way away from the human species and the human SPIRIT, even though I know it seems too often we demonstrate same or similar behaviors.
 

FunnyMoney

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#30
...
My aunt had a stroke and is not able to speak. She gets very angry, the only time she seems mellow is when she is smoking weed.

But the government will try to lock her up in a cage for doing so, this is very fucked up.....
Yes, it is totally fucked up, just like about two-thirds or more of the things the gov't does.

I believe there's a law suit right now against the federal gov't on this exact issue of the right to seek medication. I hope the gov't loses that case but if it goes to the supreme court I fear they'll side with the Feds.

This is an issue the POTUS could take care of all by himself. He could have said in his speech last night that some drugs have a good purpose and if used properly shouldn't be criminalized. He didn't say that, although he did spend a lot of time on the subject of drugs, the whole time though focused on law enforcement aspect and not on the medical condition aspect. It seems nearly everything he does and about half of what he says is just plain counter-productive. He seems like an "it;s my way or the highway" type of person and has no empathy or understanding of people like your Aunt. That is also fucked up.
 

Agavegirl1

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#31
Hubby and I don't use the stuff currently. Workplace non-tolerance. However, my retired Father-in-law, my Sister-in law and daughter are helped by it immensely. Father-in-law in a not legal state. Sister-in-law and daughter in legalized states. Their issues involve chronic pain due to a workplace back injury, breast cancer and a congenital back problem. I have chronic back and neck pain as well and cannot take any prescription pain meds. Surgeries h
 

mayhem

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#32
I don't think children should use anything, period -vigorous exercise (so tired they collapse in bed at night), good diet, fresh air, and sunshine is what I prescribe.
The way it used to be when I was growing up. Mom would even go so far as to locking the doors once and a while.
 

Joseph

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#33
Sorry about that. I'm the one who coined the phrase at GIM1, "taxes should be a four letter word."

What I meant to say in the post was "funding for a good idea for said community or peoples or nation"

You've read my posts enough around these parts, so I'm pretty sure you got the main ideas. But thanks for bringing this up and I'm often typing faster than thinking, sorry again.
no apology necessary. I enjoy reading your posts. much to think about - sometimes I simply disagree ...
 

mtnman

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#34
An experiment like no other is America,

Destroyed families, semi-orphaned, family confused children and inebriated adults. Many of them idle and a 'hot mess'.

My wife's nephew(complete with 420 tattoo) sired a child. Broke up with the mother, relinquished rights. Sired another, broke up with the mom. Sired a third, this women has 4 children with three different kids. Sounds like they are now going to break up. Trying to document a family tree at this point would be an exercise in insanity. This is one example but its run rampant.

Children everywhere with no sense of belonging to anything. This isn't rare. Its become the norm and it will spread geometrically as the lost children commit the sins of their fathers geometrically. The more we become this hot mess the more inebriation we seek. The more inebriation the hotter the mess.
No on has a lick of sense anymore. Looking for false nirvana. Looking for a buzz or no feeling at all.

As someone involved in the foster care system I see the results of all this. Recreational drugs aren't about what one guy is doing in his home. It doesn't end there. That's a real nice thought but has no basis in reality. I am involved with children who have been ripped from their identity because their parent(s) do not do well with drugs. There are lots of them and we're just getting started.

Its nice to paint a noncommittal picture that this isn't your problem, or anyones problem. Who is going to make this better? Who is going to pay for this?

Your 'rights' don't absolve themselves at your front door. They force others to suffer.
So you base your opinion on your wife's nephew' loser lifestyle? Sad.
 

TAEZZAR

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#35
I think this a stupid poll. I would not let a single issue control my vote. I look at the candidate as a whole, sometimes an asshole !!
BTW I am in favor of legalizing pot !
 

Rollie Free

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#36
So you base your opinion on your wife's nephew' loser lifestyle? Sad.
No I didn't base my opinion solely on my wife's loser nephew. What a narrative. I was relaying an example of what I see over and over and over again. What I described is a cultural phenomena that is probably exclusive to right here in the USA, right now. If it has happened before in this manner, those societies have already crumbled into the history books.

I notice you don't attack anyone for their stories of how their aunt relieves pain with marijuana. What are you basing your opinions on?
 

Joseph

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#38
Just in case I am not getting this. You advocate children using drugs or 'self medicating'?
Correct. You are not getting this ...
I advocate no such thing. I despise the pharmaceutical industry and their pimp minions . My point is that cannabis, although proven to be beneficial in so many ways for so many ailments, is illegal because the pharmaceutical / medical / psychiatry cartel do not want our children off their hook. We are inundated with pharmaceutical ads every 10 minutes. "Ask your doctor if <insert drug here> is right for you." Prescription drugs is a bzillion dollar industry. It's absolutely criminal

Our children are being prescribed ADHD drugs at every turn. The US is The Prozac Nation - why no one looks at the the death and horror from prescribed SSRIs is beyond me


 

arminius

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#39
Cannabis is pure bliss compared to Pharmas absolute crap drugs and crap fuckin system...

And it works great for so many medical problems.
 

mtnman

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#40
No I didn't base my opinion solely on my wife's loser nephew. What a narrative. I was relaying an example of what I see over and over and over again. What I described is a cultural phenomena that is probably exclusive to right here in the USA, right now. If it has happened before in this manner, those societies have already crumbled into the history books.

I notice you don't attack anyone for their stories of how their aunt relieves pain with marijuana. What are you basing your opinions on?
What Joseph said!