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Proof electric vehicle tech not viable

Casey Jones

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The more things change the more they stay the same:
View attachment 268319 View attachment 268320 View attachment 268321
View attachment 268322 Dayton, Ohio had some of these buses (Orange) running downtown when I was a kid.
I believe Seattle has them, now.

In 1986 I was in Dayton...a friend's wedding. His new wife was from Dayton, so they held it there.

I saw those damn things ALL OVER. I suppose, no exhaust was a benefit - not that I was really that bothered by bus exhaust - but the wires, two for each route, were over the streets like some sort of bizarre safety net. And occasionally one of the two trolley poles (power contacts) would come off, and watching the operator try to use battery power to swing that pole back in place...cringeworthy.

I can see why they went away. I can NOT see why normal buses went away. No like diesel? Many buses are sold outfitted to run on compressed natural gas.
 

Casey Jones

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I rode those orange buses (in a different color) regularly as a kid, and later commuting to high school. Overall they worked pretty well. Their big limitation was they couldn't stray far from the wires. Couldn't go around a disabled vehicle for instance. Occasionally one of the electricity arms would pop off the wire and the driver would have to get out to fix it. There must be a reason or two they were all replaced with petrol powered busses.
Yes, the difficulty of operation and the infrastructure required.

I drove a city bus for two years, out of the Navy and before I got into railroading. With Denver's RTD. The routes were re-evaluated every six months - by ride-checkers, basically surveyors who'd ride buses to note both driver behavior and use of the buses. Little-used bus routes would be noted. Pressure from city council members to bring routes through certain neighborhoods (or out of them) would also affect these evaluations.

So the routes would be modified; a few discontinued; a few others added.

Imagine if a complex high-voltage overhead power line had to be moved often.

What I do NOT understand, as a railroader, was why electric RAILROADING was so quick to be abandoned. It was costly to set up; but coming through Montana was the Milwaukee Road railroad, all electric. They supplied their own power, at small generation stations powered by various creeks and rivers. The only cost was maintenance of the grid - no fuel oil.

They had an incompetent comptroller (maybe bought off by EMD or GE, the two diesel-locomotive makers) who asserted the company would save money by using diesel power and selling the copper overhead wires. It was done; and it cost far MORE, not less, and led the Milwaukee into bankruptcy and abandonment.

But for an electric power system to work, power has to be supplied to the unit - and batteries are not the way to go. The route/track must be permanent and not likely to be shifted, or detoured.
 

viking

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Buck

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so the engine now goes in the bed?


...where will my lumber go?
 

Buck

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One of the challenges of making it as small as a tool box and removable.


You can afford lumber? Must be nice.
right but let's really look at this:
they make an electric pickup truck...o.k.
they make it out of aluminum....yeah, idk
now they talk about a feature they call a 'tool box'...and yet i can't get to the point this 'truck' will be worthy of being called a 'workhorse' anymore, any tool box will be completely unnecessary as there will literally be zero on that truck the owner will be able to fix on the side of the road

Tool Box? . . . see what they are doing here?


will it come with leather seats and carpeting?
 

tigerwillow1

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This would be neat. Still wouldn’t fork over money for it, but I can see it being useful.

I think it's a good idea. Could be something like a 3kW Honda or Champion generator. If you're going out on a trip, just run the thing while you're driving, and when the EV battery would have otherwise given out, you'd have another +/- 10 kWh left. Also useful for when you're stuck on the road with a depleted battery. The kicker might be that when you need it, the seldom used generator might be gummed up by the ethanol in the gasoline.
 

Casey Jones

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right but let's really look at this:
they make an electric pickup truck...o.k.
they make it out of aluminum....yeah, idk
now they talk about a feature they call a 'tool box'...and yet i can't get to the point this 'truck' will be worthy of being called a 'workhorse' anymore, any tool box will be completely unnecessary as there will literally be zero on that truck the owner will be able to fix on the side of the road

Tool Box? . . . see what they are doing here?


will it come with leather seats and carpeting?
I had, VERY briefly, one of those aluminum toy Ford trucks.

They're designed to sell. NOT to last, and certainly not to work.

A small load shift - a toolbox, the kind you'd have in your shop, 10x12x18...filled with wrench sets, that's all...I put it in the back, up against the header wall of the box. Didn't tie it down, I was only going two miles with it. It bounced backwards...on our liberal roads, which are like WWII European roads...and then, a Brain-Fogger did what they do, in front of me. I had to dynamite the brakes.

The toolbox slid forward, about a foot. Did it dent the box? No, this isn't 1965. The days of wood-floored load boxes you could just throw things into...those days are deader than Elvis.

It SPIT THE SEAM of the box at the left-forward point. It's not welded - this is aluminum. It had eight rivets holding it together, and six of those riveted points tore open.

To repair it, required removal of the pickup box; replacement of the header panel; re-riveting; and reinstallation. Estimated cost, $2000. NO, nobody would just weld brackets in there. In any event, the sidewalls of the box are two-layers, so there's no access to that corner unless the box is taken apart on a jig.

My insurance guy, when I filed a claim (that was never paid out in the end) noticed I had $1000/deductible and said, lower the deductible. Because after your first hailstorm, that truck will be totaled. Aluminum doesn't hold up. Not to hail; not to highway ice chunks; not to minor crashes.

Instead of that expensive fix, I sold that POS. FAST. Last year was my year to learn, the hard way, about new trucks.

So Ford can take that stupid electric-battery-hybrid-Hopium crap-pile...AND SHOVE IT. I'm looking FORWARD to Ford's bankruptcy - that's when William Clay Woketard Ford II, gets stripped of all the inherited wealth (his company shares) and has to actually face reality for the first time in his spoiled, Liberal life.
 

viking

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One of the challenges of making it as small as a tool box and removable.
I think it's a good idea. Could be something like a 3kW Honda or Champion generator. If you're going out on a trip, just run the thing while you're driving, and when the EV battery would have otherwise given out, you'd have another +/- 10 kWh left. Also useful for when you're stuck on the road with a depleted battery. The kicker might be that when you need it, the seldom used generator might be gummed up by the ethanol in the gasoline.

I was thinking one could put a diesel generator in bed of truck and run it often.
 
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Casey Jones

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I was think one could put a diesel generator in bed of truck and run it often.
What you're then talking about, is a diesel-electric drivetrain.

Essentially what is used in railway locomotives; has been for over eighty years.

It's not a bad way to go, but it's heavy and complex, compared to direct drive. If the components can be made compact and lightweight, it would work fine. A plus to it is the comparative steady speed of the engine driving the generator/alternator. Motors can be put on all four wheels, individually; and electronically linked to a distribution network to control wheel slip. Right there you have AWD and traction control, along with rationalization of engine usage, in a comparatively-narrow RPM band. That helps economy and emissions.

Downside? First, cost (probably no more than a battery truck) and then, the reality that it will not SOUND like today's diesel trucks (important to the dood-bro's) and eliminates the need for today's long-nose truck layout. A small three-cylinder diesel engine could either be put behind the cab, or transversely, forward.

What it would look like is a larger version of those Japan domestic market "kei trucks." Which are imported here, used, and sold, and licenseable in some states. They aren't big sellers, since they're contrary to what Billy Bob thinks trucks should look like and sound like.
 

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will it come with leather seats and carpeting?
My 81 Ford F150 didn't ahve any cup holders. I bough tsome of those plastic ones that hung on the window. It was hot. it was summer. I was tired & thirsty. Bought me a big gulp I did. Lets just say they were designed for more like a 12 oz can. Take off down the road....... turn the corner....... and it snaps off & I have big gult gogin in slow motion on my lap, knees, floor seeminging everywhere. It had to be 3 gallons at least. So I pull over & there is sticky pop everywhere. Opened the door & pop ran out. What am I gunna do? I was close to work. I opened up the shop & drug out the garden hose & hosed it all down. me, my shoes, the vinal floor mats, the drivers side of the bench seat everything. Headed home & by the time I got there the floor was already drying. Left the doors open all night & hte next day it was fine.

Try doing that with your fancy suv with a useless 6 ft bed.
 

viking

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My 81 Ford F150 didn't ahve any cup holders. I bough tsome of those plastic ones that hung on the window. It was hot. it was summer. I was tired & thirsty. Bought me a big gulp I did. Lets just say they were designed for more like a 12 oz can. Take off down the road....... turn the corner....... and it snaps off & I have big gult gogin in slow motion on my lap, knees, floor seeminging everywhere. It had to be 3 gallons at least. So I pull over & there is sticky pop everywhere. Opened the door & pop ran out. What am I gunna do? I was close to work. I opened up the shop & drug out the garden hose & hosed it all down. me, my shoes, the vinal floor mats, the drivers side of the bench seat everything. Headed home & by the time I got there the floor was already drying. Left the doors open all night & hte next day it was fine.

Try doing that with your fancy suv with a useless 6 ft bed.

Lol. I have had a 6.5‘ foot bed for 30 years. Never need longer. If one does occasionally, just get a bed extender.
 

Casey Jones

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I've never met anyone who worked his truck, say, "Gee, I wish I had a shorter bed."

Take me. I wanted the truck to tow while hauling a motorcycle. 6.5 feet is THE BARE MINIMUM I can do it with - and it's not convenient, I have to drag the mortarsickle sideways in the bed to close the gate. And the gate must be closed, else it interferes with the trailer.

But unmentioned here, is the more popular modern size - the FIVE-foot token box, intended to be moved about, empty. I can't understand what they were even designed for, much less why people spend $$,$$$ to buy them.
 

viking

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I've never met anyone who worked his truck, say, "Gee, I wish I had a shorter bed."

Take me. I wanted the truck to tow while hauling a motorcycle. 6.5 feet is THE BARE MINIMUM I can do it with - and it's not convenient, I have to drag the mortarsickle sideways in the bed to close the gate. And the gate must be closed, else it interferes with the trailer.

But unmentioned here, is the more popular modern size - the FIVE-foot token box, intended to be moved about, empty. I can't understand what they were even designed for, much less why people spend $$,$$$ to buy them.

Parking. Crew Cab and 8’ bed may not fit in garages.
 

Casey Jones

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For the price of a four-door truck, tricked out to wifey's expectations...you could buy her a Lexus, with heated seats and entertainment system...and still buy a new work truck with a working-size bed. Both would be easier to park than one of those Bro-Dozers.

Again, my own quaint philosophy: If you need a car, buy one. If you need a car but occasionally want to haul something, rent a truck.

If you need a truck, constantly, you probably don't need six-place seating, and if you do, it might be literally cheaper to go with two vehicles.
 

Buck

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i read this today:
how a hydrogen filling station works...blah blah blah - key parts:


"it can also be generated on-site by separating the element from water or natural gas."

" it is estimated by a mass balance that approximately 2.38 gallons of water are consumed as a feedstock to produce 1 kg of hydrogen gas, assuming no losses.Sep 20, 2007"

"It has been reported that the Toyota Mirai makes around one cup of water per mile.Apr 26, 2021"


there's more but living in a drought stricken state that is now using it's rare resources for personal / public transportation fuel is insane



i keep telling anyone who's willing to listen, when you participate with 'them' you're participating against the rest of everyone else
 

Joe King

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living in a drought stricken state that is now using it's rare resources for personal / public transportation fuel is insane
You guys should use sea water for that.
 

Buck

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You guys should use sea water for that.
shhhhh
:secret:


don't you dare say a word or i'll find you and cut your beer supply off...


this is gonna be


EPIC

(don't ruin it for me)

i got front row seats

:summer:
 

Buck

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oh yeah...being predictive and all that...

how long before the oceans are back down to the younger dryas levels?


i can't wait...
 

Buck

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Parking. Crew Cab and 8’ bed may not fit in garages.
bad ass work truck like that doesn't need a garage, in fact, it's embarrassed every time the wife drives it to get groceries


don't you guys ever talk to your trucks?


:don't know:
 

Buck

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i read this today:
how a hydrogen filling station works...blah blah blah - key parts:


"it can also be generated on-site by separating the element from water or natural gas."

" it is estimated by a mass balance that approximately 2.38 gallons of water are consumed as a feedstock to produce 1 kg of hydrogen gas, assuming no losses.Sep 20, 2007"

"It has been reported that the Toyota Mirai makes around one cup of water per mile.Apr 26, 2021"


there's more but living in a drought stricken state that is now using it's rare resources for personal / public transportation fuel is insane



i keep telling anyone who's willing to listen, when you participate with 'them' you're participating against the rest of everyone else

You guys should use sea water for that.
and simply:

do the math...


what sea water are you talking about? it'll soon be 100 or more miles off shore...time for a few 'new' states

i'm refeeding 'cause there are more...i'll just leave it here, no one believes me

'cause we're all gonna be dead by then...yeah, i know

cry:
 

Uglytruth

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Careful those public busses.........


Electric Bus Burst Into Flames During East Coast Heatwave – One Day After Connecticut Gov. Requires All Future State Vehicles to Run On Electric Power​

By Jim Hoft
Published July 24, 2022 at 12:35pm
634 Comments
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Screen-Shot-2022-07-24-at-12.13.32-PM.jpg

On Saturday morning, during the heatwave that swept the East Coast, a new electrically powered public transportation bus caught on fire as it sat in the bus parking lot, according to fire officials.
The Hamden Fire Department was dispatched to the CT Transit bus depot in order to extinguish the fire that had spread throughout the electric bus.
According to the authorities, it is still unclear if the lithium-ion battery was responsible for the fire that broke out on the electric bus.
“Lithium-ion battery fires are difficult to extinguish due to the thermal chemical process that produces great heat and continually reignites,” the fire officials said in a statement. “Exposures were protected at the scene.”
TRENDING: CAUGHT: Michigan News Channel Posts Results to Republican Primary Election — That’s Not Until Next Week!!
“Two CT Transit workers were transported as a precaution from exposure to the smoke, and one firefighter was transported for heat exhaustion,” authorities said.
The incident is being investigated by the fire marshal.
The incident comes after Governor Ned Lamont (CT-D) announced a new State Law that requires Connecticut to transfer all State vehicles to electrical power.
On Friday, Governor Lamont joined state agency officials, legislators, and environmental stakeholders on the New Haven Green to highlight the enactment of Public Act 22-25.
This is a new law that includes a number of actions that will allegedly help reduce greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions from the transportation sector, improve air quality and health outcomes for Connecticut residents, and help to mitigate impacts from the climate crisis, according to the news release.
“This historic law does so many great things that will benefit the residents of Connecticut, improving air quality and health outcomes while also helping to mitigate the climate crisis,” Governor Lamont said. “This is another great example of Connecticut leading on climate, particularly at a time when continued state leadership in this area is critical.”
“The measures in this unprecedented law mean cleaner air, better health outcomes, and reductions in our greenhouse gas emissions,” DEEP Commissioner Katie Dykes said.
According to the news release, the bill’s provisions include:
  • Medium and Heavy-Duty Vehicle Standards: Authorizes the DEEP commissioner to adopt regulations implementing California’s medium- and heavy-duty motor vehicle standards. These standards will ensure that manufacturers are producing cleaner vehicles and offering them for sale in Connecticut, giving prospective consumers more options while reducing a major source of in-state air pollution and greenhouse gas emissions.
  • State Fleet Electrification: Modifies the schedule for electrifying the state fleet, prohibits procurement of diesel-powered buses after January 1, 2024.
  • Connecticut Hydrogen and Electric Automobile Purchase Rebate (CHEAPR) Program: Makes numerous changes to the CHEAPR program, including making the CHEAPR board advisory-only, modifying the board’s membership, giving priority to low-income individuals and residents of environmental justice communities, and extending eligibility to businesses, municipalities, nonprofits, and e-bikes; directs all of the greenhouse gas reduction fee and part of Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative funds to the CHEAPR account.
  • Zero Emission School Buses: Allows for ten-year school transportation contracts if the contract includes at least one zero-emission school bus; sets target of 100% zero-emission school buses in environmental justice communities by 2030, and for all school districts by 2040; establishes a matching grant program of up to $20 million for the EPA Clean School Bus program.
  • Medium and Heavy-Duty Truck Vouchers: Allows DEEP to establish a voucher program to support the use of zero-emission medium and heavy-duty vehicles and funds the program from the CHEAPR account.
  • Traffic Signal Grant Program: Requires CTDOT to establish a matching grant program to help municipalities modernize existing traffic signal equipment.
  • Right to Charge: Establishes “right to charge” in condominiums and common interest communities, provides for “renter’s right to charge” with certain specifications.
  • New Construction Electric Vehicle (EV) Charging Requirements: Requires a certain percentage of parking spaces in certain new construction to be equipped with either EV charging stations or charging station infrastructure.
 

gnome

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i read this today:
how a hydrogen filling station works...blah blah blah - key parts:


"it can also be generated on-site by separating the element from water or natural gas."

" it is estimated by a mass balance that approximately 2.38 gallons of water are consumed as a feedstock to produce 1 kg of hydrogen gas, assuming no losses.Sep 20, 2007"

"It has been reported that the Toyota Mirai makes around one cup of water per mile.Apr 26, 2021"


there's more but living in a drought stricken state that is now using it's rare resources for personal / public transportation fuel is insane



i keep telling anyone who's willing to listen, when you participate with 'them' you're participating against the rest of everyone else

Over 200 million gallons of water used per year for hydraulic fracking in California alone.

Anyway, hydrogen is not the future of passenger vehicles. Some trucks, maybe.
 

Buck

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Over 200 million gallons of water used per year for hydraulic fracking in California alone.

Anyway, hydrogen is not the future of passenger vehicles. Some trucks, maybe.
yeah, they've been doing it with submarines (and space flights) for decades too...let's just keep doing it because we've been doing it for decades


that makes no sense
 

Buck

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Careful those public busses.........


Electric Bus Burst Into Flames During East Coast Heatwave – One Day After Connecticut Gov. Requires All Future State Vehicles to Run On Electric Power​

By Jim Hoft
Published July 24, 2022 at 12:35pm
634 Comments
ShareTweetShare to Gab
Screen-Shot-2022-07-24-at-12.13.32-PM.jpg

On Saturday morning, during the heatwave that swept the East Coast, a new electrically powered public transportation bus caught on fire as it sat in the bus parking lot, according to fire officials.
The Hamden Fire Department was dispatched to the CT Transit bus depot in order to extinguish the fire that had spread throughout the electric bus.
According to the authorities, it is still unclear if the lithium-ion battery was responsible for the fire that broke out on the electric bus.
“Lithium-ion battery fires are difficult to extinguish due to the thermal chemical process that produces great heat and continually reignites,” the fire officials said in a statement. “Exposures were protected at the scene.”
TRENDING: CAUGHT: Michigan News Channel Posts Results to Republican Primary Election — That’s Not Until Next Week!!
“Two CT Transit workers were transported as a precaution from exposure to the smoke, and one firefighter was transported for heat exhaustion,” authorities said.
The incident is being investigated by the fire marshal.
The incident comes after Governor Ned Lamont (CT-D) announced a new State Law that requires Connecticut to transfer all State vehicles to electrical power.
On Friday, Governor Lamont joined state agency officials, legislators, and environmental stakeholders on the New Haven Green to highlight the enactment of Public Act 22-25.
This is a new law that includes a number of actions that will allegedly help reduce greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions from the transportation sector, improve air quality and health outcomes for Connecticut residents, and help to mitigate impacts from the climate crisis, according to the news release.
“This historic law does so many great things that will benefit the residents of Connecticut, improving air quality and health outcomes while also helping to mitigate the climate crisis,” Governor Lamont said. “This is another great example of Connecticut leading on climate, particularly at a time when continued state leadership in this area is critical.”
“The measures in this unprecedented law mean cleaner air, better health outcomes, and reductions in our greenhouse gas emissions,” DEEP Commissioner Katie Dykes said.
According to the news release, the bill’s provisions include:
  • Medium and Heavy-Duty Vehicle Standards: Authorizes the DEEP commissioner to adopt regulations implementing California’s medium- and heavy-duty motor vehicle standards. These standards will ensure that manufacturers are producing cleaner vehicles and offering them for sale in Connecticut, giving prospective consumers more options while reducing a major source of in-state air pollution and greenhouse gas emissions.
  • State Fleet Electrification: Modifies the schedule for electrifying the state fleet, prohibits procurement of diesel-powered buses after January 1, 2024.
  • Connecticut Hydrogen and Electric Automobile Purchase Rebate (CHEAPR) Program: Makes numerous changes to the CHEAPR program, including making the CHEAPR board advisory-only, modifying the board’s membership, giving priority to low-income individuals and residents of environmental justice communities, and extending eligibility to businesses, municipalities, nonprofits, and e-bikes; directs all of the greenhouse gas reduction fee and part of Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative funds to the CHEAPR account.
  • Zero Emission School Buses: Allows for ten-year school transportation contracts if the contract includes at least one zero-emission school bus; sets target of 100% zero-emission school buses in environmental justice communities by 2030, and for all school districts by 2040; establishes a matching grant program of up to $20 million for the EPA Clean School Bus program.
  • Medium and Heavy-Duty Truck Vouchers: Allows DEEP to establish a voucher program to support the use of zero-emission medium and heavy-duty vehicles and funds the program from the CHEAPR account.
  • Traffic Signal Grant Program: Requires CTDOT to establish a matching grant program to help municipalities modernize existing traffic signal equipment.
  • Right to Charge: Establishes “right to charge” in condominiums and common interest communities, provides for “renter’s right to charge” with certain specifications.
  • New Construction Electric Vehicle (EV) Charging Requirements: Requires a certain percentage of parking spaces in certain new construction to be equipped with either EV charging stations or charging station infrastructure.
why not just remove the bodies off of the electric busses so when they do burst into flames, everywhere around the passengers they can find an easy to reach exit?
 

Buck

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Over 200 million gallons of water used per year for hydraulic fracking in California alone.

Anyway, hydrogen is not the future of passenger vehicles. Some trucks, maybe.
once i finished my morning chores, i had to come back as i missed this one point in particular:

that water that's used for hydraulic fracking, that water is not changed from it's original form EXCEPT

IT'S NOW DIRTY WATER

it's still water that will take some filtering to remove the debris / contamination's but it's not been changed from it's atomic structure of being H2O


my references are all towards the point in time where that H2O become H2 with some O off to the side (we can't drink that and nature doesn't make any of it that i've been able to determine and as we can see from my contributions, we split it and burn it and tell ourselves it all comes back out of the tailpipe, aka Perpetual Motion type thinking)...

and nothing could be further from the truth as it's split, we burn it, and we never get it back...ever, unless we produce it...how much energy does it take to combine sterilized H2 with sterilized O?

idk but that number is out there...waiting for one of us to drag it over to here v v v



we're creating another Mars while we watch and become amazed at what we can do, never stopping to tell ourselves we shouldn't do it
 

Casey Jones

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If you split H2O into Hydrogen and Oxygen, and then burn the hydrogen...you get, wait for it...WATER VAPOR.

There are concerns about using hydrogen as a fuel, but that is not one of them.
 

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Florida family drives into electric car problem: a replacement battery costs more than vehicle itself​

Adam Sabes
July 17, 2022·1 min read

https://www.yahoo.com/video/florida-family-drives-electric-car-015321808.html

A family in Florida drove into a major problem after buying a used electric vehicle: the replacement battery for their dead car wound up costing more than the used car was purchased for.

Avery Siwinski is a 17-year-old whose parents spent $11,000 on a used Ford Focus Electric car, which is a 2014 model and had about 60,000 miles when it was bought, according to KVUE.

The teenager had the car for six months before it began giving her issues and the dashboard was flashing symbols.

"It was fine at first," Siwinski said. "I loved it so much. It was small and quiet and cute. And all the sudden it stopped working."

She told the news outlet that the car stopped running after taking it to a repair shop, and the family eventually found out that the car's battery would need to be replaced.

The problem? A battery for the electric car costs $14,000, according to the news outlet.

Siwinski's grandfather stepped in to help out with the car problems because her father passed away in June due to colon cancer.

The Ford dealership had advised us that we could replace the battery," said her grandfather, Ray Siwinski. "It would only cost $14,000."

However, the family found out that there weren't any batteries of that type available anymore because the Ford model is discontinued.

"Then we found out the batteries aren't even available," Siwinski said. "So it didn't matter. They could cost twice as much and we still couldn't get it."
 

tigerwillow1

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Florida family drives into electric car problem: a replacement battery costs more than vehicle itself
I can't understand why this is newsworthy. It's not the first time somebody bought a used car that needed more money put into it than the buyer paid for it. The puppetmasters have achieved yet another way to split the population, into electric car lovers and electric car haters, and this is just a propaganda release from one of the sides. And there are plenty of petrol cars out there that have unavailable parts.
 

Buck

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If you split H2O into Hydrogen and Oxygen, and then burn the hydrogen...you get, wait for it...WATER VAPOR.

There are concerns about using hydrogen as a fuel, but that is not one of them.
do the math friend...there is no such thing as a Free Lunch or Perpetual Motion, something has to give...and it's that not so complex compound, water...we're asking it to give up it's H2 but we're not reproducing an equal amount to that which we're using


" it is estimated by a mass balance that approximately 2.38 gallons of water are consumed as a feedstock to produce 1 kg of hydrogen gas, assuming no losses.Sep 20, 2007"
how much water is required to make 10,000 psi of hydrogen? - Google Search
"It has been reported that the Toyota Mirai makes around one cup of water per mile.Apr 26, 2021"
how much water comes out of the tail pipe of a hydrogen vehicle? - Google Search


don't believe the bullshit, they're kinda telling us the entire story on their own...without ever highlighting it
 

Buck

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one more:

FCEBs have an average fuel economy of approximately 7.9 miles per kilogram of hydrogen, which equates to approximately 7 miles per diesel gallon equivalent


so, we use 2.38 gallons, not directly as fuel either, it's used as the 'feedstock' which really isn't explained here and we get 1 cup, or 8 ounces per mile of driving

so...1kg of hydrogen brings us approx 8 miles, so, we use over 2.38 gallons to move us 8 miles and in that 8 miles we get back 64 ounces of water

feedstock...o.k., so, 2.38 gallons equals 304 ounces of water converted into 8 miles drive time, in hydrogen Kg...equivalents, and that's what we use but we get back only 64 ounces



...it's like placing a direct impact to the human condition
 

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do the math friend...there is no such thing as a Free Lunch or Perpetual Motion, something has to give...and it's that not so complex compound, water...we're asking it to give up it's H2 but we're not reproducing an equal amount to that which we're using





don't believe the bullshit, they're kinda telling us the entire story on their own...without ever highlighting it
Matter is neither created nor destroyed.

The costs are in waste heat in electrolysis; and also in friction (as opposed to applied force) in movement.

The total protons, neutrons and electrons remain the same. And water is just one combination of those. It's easily separated, with application of electrical energy, and easily combined again, in combustion.
 

Joe King

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If you split H2O into Hydrogen and Oxygen, and then burn the hydrogen...you get, wait for it...WATER VAPOR.

There are concerns about using hydrogen as a fuel, but that is not one of them.
Exactly. When burnt, the hydrogen becomes oxidized and oxidized hydrogen is called water.
 

Buck

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no one directly attacked the math, just remained within the perameters of 'if that's what they say'

do the math gentlemen...we utilize so much more water through the process and because of the process of electrolysis than we get on any return of water, non-potable water at that, it's still polluted, from any one tail pipe...

plus, a little talked about secret...the petroleum industry, and now the green-industries don't want you to know:

At Atmosphere, there is always a large amount of water in the air, how high is the humidity around you?

don't you suspect the petroleum guys made their really cool math equation (to trick us) where on the left side, it's called 'Oxygen' when actually we don't run our cars on anything other than atmosphere and i'll tell you what, it's full of water...that comes out the tail pipe too...that is, what evers not burnt / separated

and surprisingly on the right side of the equation: like magic, there it is, water...it's a miracle, our engines produce water...gd

Matter is neither created nor destroyed.

The costs are in waste heat in electrolysis; and also in friction (as opposed to applied force) in movement.

The total protons, neutrons and electrons remain the same. And water is just one combination of those. It's easily separated, with application of electrical energy, and easily combined again, in combustion.
once again, CJ, i'm not talking about any destruction or creation of any atom or matter, but once atoms begin to combine, they're no longer just simple matter, they're complex matter and we can create / destroy that at any time and never destroy the base matter they are made of...

except: we're separating the H2's from the O at a rapidily increasing rate, i've offered up the question:
Where in Nature is Water Made?
I've read: Clouds to Rain, Ice to Liquid, but none of the answer describe or tell of the natural phenomenon that occurs where the H2 is mixed with that O, and outcomes water

i keep reading that Hydrogen Engines Make Water...i've shown 'their math' which clearly indicates, it doesn't make as much as is separated

and the non-realists continue to say use the ocean...if we're diminishing something and clearly it's not being remade, and on top of that, we're polluting so much more...and it's all ramping up...we're in trouble, but i digress

the issue i'm referring to is the manufacturing of H2O


look, as always, believe what you will but just stop believing the bullshit they're slinging to make these things the
technology of the future
because if it's keeps going, there won't be one


it's impossible to see properly with one eye closed and i've given the math and yet, some won't pull out the calculator, get some critical thinking going...mostly because they're already thinking they're gonna be dead by the time this place runs out of water...

you also thought Roe vs Wade would never be overturned either...and you probably didn't buy oil when it was below what was it? $30-$40 a barrel a few years back, a lot cheaper than that...eh, it happens

i'd suggest, that maybe correct, you may be dead before we run out of water, especially because these hydrogen cars actually use separated water for fuel and by the end of a long trip, you've made more water than you used (or at least the same amount), know how I know? because they say so... but if it's the difference between watering your lawn or separating that water so you can drive to work...better begin to replace all of your landscape with rocks, just so you'll be able to flush that toilet more than once a day

don't believe in my cult, i really don't care...but give a provable answer where water is made, naturally

not a change of state type of an answer...not in volcanoes, but it does take a lot of heat
not underground, that's not happening otherwise our aquifers would be filling back up like our oil wells do

hmmm...oh yeah, dead fossils, that's what we're currently using for fuel...fk me


:summer:
 

Joe King

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do the math gentlemen...we utilize so much more than we get on any return from anyone tail pipe...
Ok, so in your opinion, where does it go? You burn the hydrogen, and then what happens to it?

My contention is that by the act of burning it, the atoms of hydrogen must become oxidized. How can one burn hydrogen without oxidizing it?
Hydrogen = fuel
Oxygen = oxidizer
Ignition spark = heat sufficient for burning

How can the result not become h2o?
what evers not burnt / separated
Ignition temp is not high enough to separate the h2 from the o

Where in Nature is Water Made?
Nowhere on Earth that I know of. Any loose H tends to float away.


..i've shown 'their math' which clearly indicates, it doesn't make as much as is separated
So what do you think happens to it? It has to go somewhere. What other atmospheric atom would it bond with?




.if we're diminishing something and clearly it's not being remade,
That's how we will fix sea level rise. As the glaciers melt, we burn 'em.
Voila! Obozo's beach front property is safe. I bet that takes a load of your mind, eh? Lol


i'd suggest, that maybe correct, you may be dead before we run out of water,
Everyone will be dead by the time we run out of water completely.


Is what you are worried about come down to incomplete combustion?
Ie: if all the H injected into the cylinder does not combust, there could in fact be a bit of loss.
...but H burns really well, and quickly. So I would think that there would be very little loss in the combustion chamber. Although I have no proof of that.
 

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Ok, so in your opinion, where does it go? You burn the hydrogen, and then what happens to it?

My contention is that by the act of burning it, the atoms of hydrogen must become oxidized. How can one burn hydrogen without oxidizing it?
Hydrogen = fuel
Oxygen = oxidizer
Ignition spark = heat sufficient for burning

How can the result not become h2o?

Ignition temp is not high enough to separate the h2 from the o


Nowhere on Earth that I know of. Any loose H tends to float away.



So what do you think happens to it? It has to go somewhere. What other atmospheric atom would it bond with?





That's how we will fix sea level rise. As the glaciers melt, we burn 'em.
Voila! Obozo's beach front property is safe. I bet that takes a load of your mind, eh? Lol



Everyone will be dead by the time we run out of water completely.


Is what you are worried about come down to incomplete combustion?
Ie: if all the H injected into the cylinder does not combust, there could in fact be a bit of loss.
...but H burns really well, and quickly. So I would think that there would be very little loss in the combustion chamber. Although I have no proof of that.
There wouldn't be a loss.

Eventually, free hydrogen would bond with some other molecule - most likely oxygen. Just as rust, which is oxidation, happens naturally; just as water evaporates naturally...just as there's free oxygen that combines with carbon, and then is liberated...so, too, is there free hydrogen, that combines, and with natural processes, is released.

There is no chemical loss of any significance on Earf. Biggest loss of elements, is all that crud we fire up into outer space.

The "loss" and "no free lunch" mentioned here, confuse chemical reactions with thermal efficiencies. If we liberate hydrogen with electrolysis, there will be waste heat. It will not be a perfectly-efficient process - probably three-quarters of electricity consumed would be producing heat, in varying levels, in the power cords and electrodes inside the process.

Then, burning the hydrogen. The best thermal efficiency in an I/C engine is about 35 percent. The rest of the energy is wasted as unwanted heat. Of the applied force from combustion, there's friction all along the process to work or movement done.

But no matter is lost, in any reaction. If we consume large quantities of water in rendering hydrogen, we'll have it right back in water vapor when used as fuel. Except for a small amount of leaking hydrogen, which also is not harmful. Unless it's in a closed space with a pilot light somewhere.
 

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There wouldn't be a loss.

Eventually, free hydrogen would bond with some other molecule - most likely oxygen
Would it? When water is broken down and the H & O are collected in the same container, they do not automatically recombine. They stay happily separeted. It takes an ignition source to initiate the reaction causing them to form water.

Same with CO2 when burning wood. It takes a sufficient level of heat (ie: energy) to cause the carbon to join with O2.
There is no chemical loss of any significance on Earf. Biggest loss of elements, is
In space where loose H and He in the atmosphere end up.


But no matter is lost, in any reaction.
Agreed.
...but if every atom of H is not rejoined with O to form water during combustion, and the unburned H does in fact float away to space, (or even just to the top of the atmosphere) there is no way to get it back.

Then you also have the issue of containing and or pipelining it. H is very small and can find the tiniest of holes to leak of of.
So I guess @Buck may be on to something.


Except for a small amount of leaking hydrogen, which also is not harmful. Unless it's in a closed space with a pilot light somewhere.
At which point it would combust into water.
...but any leaking would immediately rise and try to get away. The really dangerous gases are the ones heavy ones that accumulate in low areas.
 

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Scientists and engineers have used hydrogen for centuries. Before even it was understood how to capture helium. Remember the Hindenburg? German airships used hydrogen; and somehow, out of all that cracking of water, we didn't wind up short any.

I don't know the environmental action, exactly; but I'm not going to learn it online. There is no science online, anymore; just Junk Science to support the Daily Narrative.

But the issue remains: Scientists and technicians have had hydrogen available all along. What state it sits in, when liberated, I don't know; but it's never been, and won't be, an environmental crisis.

What it WILL be, is another Panic Campaign for the Luddites, who want us all reduced to hunter-gatherers. Once they outlaw motorized tractors, they'll try to ban draft animals. What they REALLY want, is everyone DEAD, but THEM.

Except they don't really want that, either...because then the pencil-necks have to do the hard work that the self-sufficient now do.
 

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So what do you think happens to it? It has to go somewhere. What other atmospheric atom would it bond with?
it certainly doesn't recombine and turn back into water...so, it does it's own thing
Everyone will be dead by the time we run out of water completely.
and that's the caveat..give us a time frame when this will occur?

see below for the reason i ask...V V
Scientists and engineers have used hydrogen for centuries. Before even it was understood how to capture helium. Remember the Hindenburg? German airships used hydrogen; and somehow, out of all that cracking of water, we didn't wind up short an
it's proportional

if we're building infrastructure where every ten miles we're installing an electrolysis device, that's called scaling with no regard for the materials, as long as they're cheap or we can find customers to pay for it...the manufacturers really don't care either - in fact, they're so ingrained with their abuse of natural resources, they're able to create additional lingo to ensure we give up some of ours so they can make it more of theirs


...give us a time frame as this industry is just ramping up



you know, i've pursued this solely for fun and have uncovered so much more...i've offered it up here for your absorption


but since i'm not doing the problem any justice, it would seem, i'm going to simply take the opposite approach, i'm going to start investigating what can be done with hydrogen and electrolysis of water...if there's any way i can jump on board, i'm going to diminish this combination as fast as i can and if i can do it for profit, even better


fk it, i'm on board: Separate It All, then burn the rest to the ground as there won't be any water to put it out, this will be EPIC


and since we didn't build it, i'd like to invite everyone here on board to come to california, as we may see the last molecule allowed for southern california lawns, get refused delivery to that homeowner, because some ceo needs to get to work in the morning...there goes my cup of coffee tomorrow morning


Corporate America!


:summer:
 

Joe King

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it certainly doesn't recombine and turn back into water...so, it does it's own thing
Whatever burns, does in fact recombine. If you break water and collect the now loose H & O into a container and then make a spark inside that container, the H & O will in fact recombine into the same amount of water you started with.


and that's the caveat..give us a time frame when this will occur?
A looong f'ing time.

Per my calculations, if we were to use water at the same rate we use oil and ALL of the water was 100% lost, we would run out of ocean water in 107 million years.
....but the losses won't be anywhere close to 100%, so you could at least double the amount of time. Probably triple, or more.