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Self Defense: Always shoot to kill or no?

Saul Mine

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#41
Ok, let's say I have this small fire, not really a major threat. Should I only pretend to put it out? Like maybe point the extinguisher to one side so I only wound the fire without extinguishing it?

Another question I've been wondering about: Should I keep my fire extinguishers loaded all the time? It seems so dangerous. I mean they could go off by accident, and they make such a mess. Should I lock up my extinguishers to be sure the kids can't get them?
 

gonzo

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#42
Ok, let's say I have this small fire, not really a major threat. Should I only pretend to put it out? Like maybe point the extinguisher to one side so I only wound the fire without extinguishing it?

Another question I've been wondering about: Should I keep my fire extinguishers loaded all the time? It seems so dangerous. I mean they could go off by accident, and they make such a mess. Should I lock up my extinguishers to be sure the kids can't get them?

Yea thats certainly one way of looking at it isnt it. Thanks for the input, good questions indeed.
 

gonzo

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#43
no tap rack!? even on the "second chance". thanks for the vid and food for thought.
This is a cool video indeed and so are the others posted, I had never seen them before, food for thought for sure! I mean holy shit man that dude just kept on coming, scary for sure.

Also you have to consider someone acting like that may be on PCP and shooting someone on PCP in the leg or just trying to wound them is not going to stop them, what it will do is piss them off more.


I am not a huge fan of authority and LEO by extension but man they sure have a tough job, you just never know what you are dealing with around the next bend. It takes a special breed indeed, to go out everyday and put your life on the line like that, especially cops who work in notoriously bad neighborhoods and drug infested areas, guys on PCP, crack, meth, coke etc, are dangerous as **** and even worse when they are armed. Drunks too.
 

RoadKing

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#45
This is a very good point and exactly as I have been taught as far as language goes it is always, as you say, " I shot to stop the threat sir." And that is all you say.

Well worth repeating...
If you happen to say anything additional though, and you probably will, especially with adrenalin pumping through you, and the cops pushing hard to be the hero for a quick solve.....you can hurt yourself badly in a legal sort of way.

If at all possible, I'd try to train myself to say absolutely nothing at all. Let them arrest you, which they'll do anyways.....then get a good attorney, with lots of experience, and let him/her do ALL the speaking on your behalf. There is nothing harder for an attorney to undo, than to defend something you might have said, that the police have written down in evidence and construed incorrectly.

In the mean time shake your head in a negative fashion, and just use the fact you'll be in shock that you took a life, to bide your time till you get that attorney. SAY NOTHING

Just my opinion,
RK
 

5150female

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#46
I had to get this in. This is a Colt .45 my dad gave to me. My favorite customization he did is the laser etched "Smile Wait for Flash".He got it done in a place in Idaho by mail. Sorry the clarity is a kiss lacking.
 

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Ebie

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#47
They were armed?
With what?
Be well,
In a critical situation, who the hell is going to know the difference between shooting to kill and shooting to injure? You shoot center mass.

And who is skilled enough to shoot non-vital places during a firefight?

The original question seems to come from watching too many Hollywood movies.


The real question is when to draw the weapon. If the situation is getting critical, there is a chance the weapon could be a deterrent.

I've drawn a handgun before on the street, and it in fact saved the asses of me and several others I was with. But it's a dangerous game. An armed, threatening gang scattered, but they could have drawn guns as well. We had to get the hell away quick, because they were regrouping to counter-attack, this time with confidence and the knowledge that we had a firearm.

Certainly, in your home, the racking of a shotgun is the best signal to send any would-be intruder.

I would always give the assailant the benefit of running away before I shoot. But then again, I AM a Christian...

So don't shoot unless the assailant gives you no other choice, of course. But don't think you can control things enough to distinguish between lethal and non-lethal shooting, unless you're descended from Annie Oakley or something.

If the person is down and disarmed, I would never gratuitously shoot them, and I think no reasonable person would.

I'll tell you what was scary in the above situation....

As soon as the people saw my weapon and reacted, I was emboldened. Something inside me took over, something predatory, and I was really ready to shoot whoever came at us- or whoever simply disobeyed my command to get back. I became very agressive for about 30 seconds, then very nervous and shakey.

It was one of those "fork in the road" moments that could have changed many people's lives forever.

Carrying a firearm is serious business. Caution, wisdom and kindness need to come first.
 

gonzo

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#48
I had to get this in. This is a Colt .45 my dad gave to me. My favorite customization he did is the laser etched "Smile Wait for Flash".He got it done in a place in Idaho by mail. Sorry the clarity is a kiss lacking.
Sweet pistol. I have the same exact one, its an officers model Colt 1911 .45acp. They really hold their value, take good care of that baby.
 

gonzo

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#49
If you happen to say anything additional though, and you probably will, especially with adrenalin pumping through you, and the cops pushing hard to be the hero for a quick solve.....you can hurt yourself badly in a legal sort of way.

If at all possible, I'd try to train myself to say absolutely nothing at all. Let them arrest you, which they'll do anyways.....then get a good attorney, with lots of experience, and let him/her do ALL the speaking on your behalf. There is nothing harder for an attorney to undo, than to defend something you might have said, that the police have written down in evidence and construed incorrectly.

In the mean time shake your head in a negative fashion, and just use the fact you'll be in shock that you took a life, to bide your time till you get that attorney. SAY NOTHING

Just my opinion,
RK

+ 1000


As an attorney this is the best advice I can give: say nothing, dont ever talk to the police unless your attorney is present. Never, under any circumstances.*








*This is not legal advice only friendly discourse for pusposes of this discussion only.
 

Ebie

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#51
"Under any circumstances"?
Is this possible?
If a criminal breaks into your home, and ends up dead, you have to say something to 911.
"A man has become dead in my home."
Police come.
What is your name?"
"What happened?"
"Did you know this person?"
Have any other guns in the home?"
How can you say nothing?
At least say "my name is "x", I live here, I will speak further only with my attourney present."
I assume that is what you meant.
Be well.

PS I understand that the law is very politically applied, diffcult to predict..

+ 1000


As an attorney this is the best advice I can give: say nothing, dont ever talk to the police unless your attorney is present. Never, under any circumstances.*








*This is not legal advice only friendly discourse for pusposes of this discussion only.
 

Ebie

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#52
OK to call your attourney before 911?
Be well,

+ 1000


As an attorney this is the best advice I can give: say nothing, dont ever talk to the police unless your attorney is present. Never, under any circumstances.*








*This is not legal advice only friendly discourse for pusposes of this discussion only.
 

gonzo

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#53
OK to call your attourney before 911?
Be well,
I cant offer legal advice over the internet but as a matter of friendly chat here on a discussion forum I would say a resounding no, it would not make you look very good if you stopped to make any calls to anyone before you called 911 to report whatever it is that has taken place, but you are not required to offer anything other than an address to 911, and I would call my attorney immediately after that call.
 

gonzo

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#54
"Under any circumstances"?
Is this possible?
If a criminal breaks into your home, and ends up dead, you have to say something to 911.
"A man has become dead in my home."
Police come.
What is your name?"
"What happened?"
"Did you know this person?"
Have any other guns in the home?"
How can you say nothing?
At least say "my name is "x", I live here, I will speak further only with my attourney present."
I assume that is what you meant.
Be well.

PS I understand that the law is very politically applied, diffcult to predict..

Yes thats basic common sense, you can give your name but I would personally not get in to any details until my attorney is present. Thats just me personally speaking though, not professionally, you would need to do whats best for you in such a situation. For me, I would never speak to LEO without an attorney present other than to give very basic information such as name, age etc.
 

Ebie

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#56
And what exactly are you supposed to tell 911?
Be well.

I cant offer legal advice over the internet but as a matter of friendly chat here on a discussion forum I would say a resounding no, it would not make you look very good if you stopped to make any calls to anyone before you called 911 to report whatever it is that has taken place, but you are not required to offer anything other than an address to 911, and I would call my attorney immediately after that call.
 

MoMoney

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#57
Yep, my S & W is custom-fitted with a crimson trace laser and I like that big, red dot!
 

Defenestrator

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#58
As an attorney this is the best advice I can give: say nothing, dont ever talk to the police unless your attorney is present. Never, under any circumstances.
Yes thats basic common sense, you can give your name but I would personally not get in to any details until my attorney is present. Thats just me personally speaking though, not professionally, you would need to do whats best for you in such a situation. For me, I would never speak to LEO without an attorney present other than to give very basic information such as name, age etc. {emphasis added}
As an attorney, maybe you can answer a question that's always bothered me. Why do police tend to respect it when you hire an attorney who says "My client won't be answering any farther questions." and yet they keep badgering a suspect who doesn't hire an attorney but says "I won't be answering any of your questions."?

Basically I'm asking why will the police fail to respect my rights if I demand them but they'll respect them if a member of the B.A.R. does?

In response to your original question I would say that if you're going to point a gun at someone you prepare yourself to kill them and pray you don't have to.
 

gonzo

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#59
As an attorney, maybe you can answer a question that's always bothered me. Why do police tend to respect it when you hire an attorney who says "My client won't be answering any farther questions." and yet they keep badgering a suspect who doesn't hire an attorney but says "I won't be answering any of your questions."?

Basically I'm asking why will the police fail to respect my rights if I demand them but they'll respect them if a member of the B.A.R. does?

In response to your original question I would say that if you're going to point a gun at someone you prepare yourself to kill them and pray you don't have to.
Its a good question and I see it often and it sucks, I agree with you. I really cant say why they do that because I dont know other than to suggest that it is because you alone arent in position to force them to respect you but the attorney, as an officer of the court, certainly is. In short, they dont take you seriously because there isnt much you can do to them if they dont, but the attorney on the other hand, can bring down the wrath of god on them if they violate your rights in his or her presence. Without an attorney its simply your word against the LEO and you lose everytime in that game. You know what I am saying.


Also I am not a member of the bar or a practicing attorney, just a law school graduate at this point, but that will change soon I hope.
 

gonzo

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#60
And what exactly are you supposed to tell 911?
Be well.
I can only speak for myself but from what I have learned, if you have shot someone in your home in self defense I would call 9-11 and say something to the effect " Hello my name is such and such and I live at such and such I need an ambulance and police here asap, someone broke in to my house and was threatening my life and I was forced to defend myself to stop the threat, please send help as soon as possible, click."


This is just speaking for myself, I have never been in the situaton and I dont think there is any standard answer, for me, personally, I would offer as little information as possible until your attorney arrives and then let them speak for you.

Its important to remember in such a situation you havent done anything wrong but on the other hand people often offer more than they need to and things get twisted around and come back to bite you in the ass.

basic info, someone is hurt, please send help, hang up.


I think this is a good question that merits more discussion here, perhaps others will have more to add or perhaps someone who has been in the situation before can tell us what worked for them.

Again keep in mind you dont need to lie or make anything up as you have done nothing wrong and you have nothing to hide so I wouldnt act if you do, be honest and tell the truth, thats always the best policy when you havent done anything wrong. Its just that when speaking to LEO they are trained to get you tongue twisted and in such a situation you are already nervous and upset and who knows what may come out of your mouth that may mean one thing to you but something else to a trained LEO. Let the attorney handle that, thats what they are trained to do.


This isnt legal advice in any way, just friendly chat on a discussion forum. Ultimately one needs to be informed and learn on their own what works best for them. Its a case by case thing.
 

Quad

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#61
What I learned in my concealed handgun license course:

Identify yourself as the intended victim.

Accuse the bad guy of posing a threat to your life.

Beyond that . . .

“I need to have my attorney present before I can answer any questions or make any statements. I’m sure you understand why.â€

If they persist? If they begin harassing you?

“I am feeling ill. I need to see a doctor immediately. Please call an ambulance.â€

And keep the accusation simple. NO DETAILS. "He attacked me." "He forced his way into my house." Etc. Nothing more than that.

A great danger lies in making a statement, however innocent, that is later proven to be false.
 

Defenestrator

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#62
Its a good question and I see it often and it sucks, I agree with you. I really cant say why they do that because I dont know other than to suggest that it is because you alone arent in position to force them to respect you but the attorney, as an officer of the court, certainly is. In short, they dont take you seriously because there isnt much you can do to them if they dont, but the attorney on the other hand, can bring down the wrath of god on them if they violate your rights in his or her presence. Without an attorney its simply your word against the LEO and you lose everytime in that game. You know what I am saying.
Right, and I sort of get it, but even an attorney who's been arrested is probably going to be given a hard time if he stands on his rights versus if his attorney does it for him. I would think an attorney would be fully capable of bring the "wrath of god" down on an unruly officer or station. And please correct me if I'm wrong, but any citizen with the correct knowledge of procedure and practice should be able to make all the relevant fillings to do the same. Or do the courts not show the same respect to properly lay-filed briefs vs those filed by a professional?

Would you be willing to send me a private message, or start a new thread with your general impression of law school and some of your experiences. I have often given thought to studying the law (as I'm sure many here have), but I don't believe I'd last long in a law school....I tend to ask too many inconvenient questions.
 

Ebie

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#63
Excellent post.
Yes, you cannot really say nothing.
You have to call 911--you can't just breath on the telephone!
Be well.

PS It is curious how in some cases the DAs decide to make some home owner a hero or vice versa. I remember the case one year ago where somebody shot two robbers dead in the street as they were fleeing...He must have had some friends because...

What I learned in my concealed handgun license course:

Identify yourself as the intended victim.

Accuse the bad guy of posing a threat to your life.

Beyond that . . .

“I need to have my attorney present before I can answer any questions or make any statements. I’m sure you understand why.â€

If they persist? If they begin harassing you?

“I am feeling ill. I need to see a doctor immediately. Please call an ambulance.â€

And keep the accusation simple. NO DETAILS. "He attacked me." "He forced his way into my house." Etc. Nothing more than that.

A great danger lies in making a statement, however innocent, that is later proven to be false.
 

livtocruz

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#64
Never make that statement, after calling 911, put you weapon down on a table, sit in a chair and acknowledge that you called them. It is after all automatic in the fact (in this day and age) that your call is traced. When confronted by the police say this; "I was defending my house, wife and children" to the best of my ability with what I had in hand. Say nothing less, say nothing more.
 

AMforPM

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#65
I also was taught to shoot center torso. As to stopping power, Dad said he knew an old rancher who had survived being shot more than once, and that he said caliber matters. When shot with a 45 non fatally he was too shocky to even pick his own gun back up and was rescued by ranch hands. He said it was like being short term paralyzed rather than a matter of pain.

A 38 wadcutter may feel like being punched and the guy may keep coming. I have extra stopping power loads in the house 38.

I also have ended trouble by pulling a gun and I was glad it worked. I'd rather take no one's life, but I would not try to shoot a leg. Once the gun is out they either stop and go away or get all I can deliver to their torso.

I read of a man shot 6 times in the head with a 25 cal who then walked to the hospital. I think some pellet guns shoot harder than 25s though.

I'm seriously considering a charter 44 bulldog. I shot a friend's and it bruised my palm because it is a really light gun for so much power, but I had no trouble hitting my rather low standards which is a milk jug at inside the house distances.
 
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#66
I read of a man shot 6 times in the head with a 25 cal who then walked to the hospital. I think some pellet guns shoot harder than 25s though.

Check out this one. I remember reading a story about a Traditional Catholc priest shot point blank in the ???.
I messed up the whole story.

Edit
He was shot in the back which is just as deadly.

A French priest on pilgrimage to Einsiedeln, Switzerland was on his way to Mass when he remembered that he had forgotten his Scapular. Although late, he returned to his room for it.
While saying Mass, a young man approached the altar, pulled out a revolver and shot him in the back … but the priest continued to say Mass.

In the sacristy the abbot exclaimed, “I thought the man missed you.”

When the vestments were removed, the bullet was found, adhering to his little brown Scapular.

http://www.tldm.org/news7/MiraculousStoriesScapular.htm
I wonder if there is more documentation about this.

Getting shot in the back must stink.
 
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Fixture

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#68
What I learned in my concealed handgun license course:....

Identify yourself as the intended victim......
Many individuals are somewhat intimidated by the aftermath of the 'event'.

A gun needs to be pondered in advance of such an event. Touch it, look at it, be amazed at its capabilities...Ponder what the gun can do... Once you mentally review such scenario's, then I suppose you should be allowed to possess a firearm.

If the circumstances evolve that require a mature and clearthinking adult to resort to deadly force, well guess what? KILL.
 
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#70
i'm sure most people here have seen this before as it seems to be the obligatory posting whenever the topic comes up, but just in case anyone hasn't....

 
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Ebie

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#71
Yes.
I've seen it.
It's good.
But as I noted, you have to say something to the police dispatcher, or the police won't come in the 1st place.
Also, I wonder if this applies to places like Texas, where, you can defend yourself in certain clear situations...
Be well.

i'm sure most people here have seen this before as it seems to be the obligatory posting whenever the topic comes up, but just in case anyone hasn't....

 
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Ebie

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#72
They taught you to say:
"He attacked me." "He forced his way into my house."
This is not saying nothing.
This is saying a lot.
Be well.

What I learned in my concealed handgun license course:

Identify yourself as the intended victim.

Accuse the bad guy of posing a threat to your life.

Beyond that . . .

“I need to have my attorney present before I can answer any questions or make any statements. I’m sure you understand why.”

If they persist? If they begin harassing you?

“I am feeling ill. I need to see a doctor immediately. Please call an ambulance.”

And keep the accusation simple. NO DETAILS. "He attacked me." "He forced his way into my house." Etc. Nothing more than that.

A great danger lies in making a statement, however innocent, that is later proven to be false.
 

keepitlow

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#73
... a few words from Jeff Cooper. (Quote condensed)

"Anyone who willfully and maliciously attacks another without sufficient cause deserves no consideration. We are fully justified in valuing the life and person of the intended victim more highly than the life of the pernicious assailant. The attacked must be stopped - at once and completely. An armed man is dangerous as long as he is conscious. Take no chances - put him out. When your life is in danger and under lethal attack don't be kind - Be harsh - Be tough - Be ruthless.'