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selling gold without IRS knowledge

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#1
Hello all, I'm new to this forum.

Just a simple question. When selling gold to say Apmex, if the money were wire transferred to my bank, would the IRS catch wind of this? Basically is there any way to keep the IRS' grubby little fingers out of the transaction.

Thanks for anyones reply.
 

Irons

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#2
Yes they would know about it.

Sell for cash. Problem solved.
 
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#5
Pardon my ignorance on this topic, how could this be taxed if the IRS didn't know the actual profit? A flat tax of 28% of the dollar amount? This isn't like selling stock.
 

Irons

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#6
Pardon my ignorance on this topic, how could this be taxed if the IRS didn't know the actual profit? A flat tax of 28% of the dollar amount? This isn't like selling stock.
You would have to prove what you paid for it then pay tax on the profit.

If you have no way of proving what you paid you are taxed for capital gains on the full amount. Clear as mud? Good!~:biggrin:

You may want to buy a boat.
 

Argentsum

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#8
I believe all wire transactions are recorded. This is not the same as reported.

If they want to know about your wire transactions, they can.
 

earplugs

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#10
I remember watching some black and white movie on the rotchildes. amschel rothcildes had two sets of books. One was the real pricing, and the next was a fake account, probably inflated costs and deducted sell prices. I bet he made his own recdeipts for just such an occasions. just saying.
 

budfox

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#11
Since when is all wires to a bank reported?
Since I wired some money to goldmoney 6 months ago. I asked the banker if it was reported, he said yes.
Then it was mainly International.
All other wires are available for view for the Feds.

They're even tightening up on small $2500 cash withdrawals. The teller and the banker both asked at seperate times. "Oh are you going to have some fun with that" WTF? I said no, I'm having a retaining wall built.
 

budfox

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#12
I believe all wire transactions are recorded. This is not the same as reported.

If they want to know about your wire transactions, they can.
That's correct for domestic ones. International ARE reported. Domestic are reported at banker discression.
 

ccjoe

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#13
Yes they would know about it.

Sell for cash. Problem solved.
Problem is NOT solved if you have to put the cash in the bank to pay bills as the IRS would ask where did you get the money?
I deal in 5 figures a lot so there's NO WAY to hide PLUS 99% of all dealers give checks as the IRS is cracking down on them according to Bob Higgins of First State Depository Co. among others who I meet at coin shows.
 

Irons

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#15
Problem is NOT solved if you have to put the cash in the bank to pay bills as the IRS would ask where did you get the money?
I deal in 5 figures a lot so there's NO WAY to hide PLUS 99% of all dealers give checks as the IRS is cracking down on them according to Bob Higgins of First State Depository Co. among others who I meet at coin shows.
I tend to forget, you, oh mighty Joe, deal daily in amounts of precious metals us mere mortals could only dream of.~:bowdown:
 

Argentsum

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#16
Regardless, the walls are closing in.

There are a few places that still exchange cash for precious metals. You may have to hunt around.

I guess you could go into a place and ask to purchase x amount of precious metal for the dealer mark up price minus the spot price of the metal. The key being you will not receive any metal. In affect, you are buying the receip...>>sound of needle ripped across the phonograph<<
 
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#17
That's correct for domestic ones. International ARE reported. Domestic are reported at banker discression.[/QUOTE]

So wired a payment (domestically) for $52k a couple of weeks ago. Did this most likely be reported? I also deposited a check in my bank account for $72k. I guess this was reported also?
 

wjv

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#18
Let me know how NOT to have a WT reported. I thought of everthing> I think:) and couldn't do it.
Walk into dealers store with PMs or cash in hand. . . Walk out with cash or PMs in hand on a less than $10K transaction. . .

That's the only way I know of. .
 

CiscoKid

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#19
Sell to a local dealer and keep the amounts relatively small (less than $9k). Even if he gives you a check it shouldn't raise any red flags. A person can live for a while on $9k.

Seems WJV and I were typing at the same time. ; )
 

glockngold

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#20
In affect, you are buying the receip...>>sound of needle ripped across the phonograph<<
ha! that's funny
 

Irons

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#21
One could take a 3 day road trip and hit coin shops for under $1000 a pop. All cash.

Having good long term relations with area coin shops could provide lots of cash.

Also, buy a table at a coin show and only take cash for sales.

I swear folks make things waaay harder than they have to be.~:rolleyes:
 
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#22
One could take a 3 day road trip and hit coin shops for under $1000 a pop. All cash.

Having good long term relations with area coin shops could provide lots of cash.

Also, buy a table at a coin show and only take cash for sales.

I swear folks make things waaay harder than they have to be.~:rolleyes:
Soon 1oz. gold coins will be almost impossible to sell for cash. At least in quantity.
 

TnAndy

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#23
Another option, often overlooked, is simply DON'T CONVERT to FRNs.

Use your metals to purchase things directly. Takes a bit more effort, but it can be done. I just sold a piece of land, and owner financed it. I started to offer the guy a real discount for a "gold contract".....one in which he paid the down payment and monthly payments in gold coin, but he really didn't seem like the type.

SO, next time you go to buy something large, that you intended to convert metals to buy, try offering......you never know !

Went into my dentist few years back (gold at 1200), needing a crown ( 800FRNs ) and laid a new 1/2oz eagle, a $10 1880's eagle (hair less than 1/2oz) and my check book on my stomach while he was working.....and said "pick one, Doc". He took the $10 eagle and was happy to get it.

Done it with silver rounds on other stuff.....you'd be surprised at the discount, and willingness to accept.....worst case, they say no......you don't know until you ask, huh ?
 

Irons

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#24
Soon 1oz. gold coins will be almost impossible to sell for cash. At least in quantity.
You may be right, thats when we'll have to break out the hammer and chisel and break them into 1/4 oz chunks.

This is so simple.~:flute:
 

~BS

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#25
That's correct for domestic ones. International ARE reported. Domestic are reported at banker discression.
over 10k on personal accounts are reported. business accounts probably have higher limits.
 

hoarder

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#26
I just sold a piece of land, and owner financed it. I started to offer the guy a real discount for a "gold contract".....one in which he paid the down payment and monthly payments in gold coin, but he really didn't seem like the type.
If gold went through the roof, couldn't he just use legal tender for all debts, public and private?


I agree it's a good idea to ask if people will accept PM's. Even if they don't they will never forget it....and you will have planted a seed.
 

Juristic Person

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#27
Problem is NOT solved if you have to put the cash in the bank to pay bills as the IRS would ask where did you get the money?
I deal in 5 figures a lot so there's NO WAY to hide PLUS 99% of all dealers give checks as the IRS is cracking down on them according to Bob Higgins of First State Depository Co. among others who I meet at coin shows.
Don't give your money to the bank. Problem solved.
 

Juristic Person

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#28
Soon 1oz. gold coins will be almost impossible to sell for cash. At least in quantity.
How do you figure? I don't plan on refusing gold for cash no matter what the dollar value...
 

Joseph

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#29
Walk into dealers store with PMs or cash in hand. . . Walk out with cash or PMs in hand on a less than $10K transaction. . .

That's the only way I know of. .
I thought banks and IRS no longer used $10K as their benchmark for tracing monies, but now have red flags if the $$$ movement through your account(s) differs from what they would call your "normal" monthly transactions. e.g. if you normally move approx $6000.00 per month through your bank, and have direct deposits from your place of employment, the first time you drop an extra $2500 lump sum in your account, the sirens go off and somebody calls somebody else, and you get a letter in the mail.


So it's not about $$$ amounts per se, but more like irregular activity. Its disturbing that any agency would be able to easily track and notice that

Regards,
Joseph
 

Unca Walt

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#30
Originally Posted by wjv View Post
Walk into dealers store with PMs or cash in hand. . . Walk out with cash or PMs in hand on a less than $10K transaction. . .

That's the only way I know of...





I thought banks and IRS no longer used $10K as their benchmark for tracing monies, but now have red flags if the $$$ movement through your account(s) differs from what they would call your "normal" monthly transactions. e.g. if you normally move approx $6000.00 per month through your bank, and have direct deposits from your place of employment, the first time you drop an extra $2500 lump sum in your account, the sirens go off and somebody calls somebody else, and you get a letter in the mail.


So it's not about $$$ amounts per se, but more like irregular activity. Its disturbing that any agency would be able to easily track and notice that

Regards,
Joseph
Yabbut... Yabbut...

Like Irons and wjv have already so clearly pointed out: DON'T EVEN WALK IN THE FARGIN BANK.

You have a roof repair? Gonna cost ya $2K?

1. Tell the guy you will give him a Maple Leaf and a coupla rounds. (Add it up, showing him spot).

The guy sez "thanks"...

or --

The guy doesn't want them? No prob. Go to the second step (which I call Step Two):

2. Go to the local dealer, swap the Maple Leaf and a coupla rounds for FRNs. Give the foo' his FRNs.

Ain't no bank in the deal.

You are making it too complicated.
 
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#31
It's astonishing how the banks track "average Joe's" transactions, all the while there's probably billions of dollars being lost elsewhere.
 

TnAndy

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#34
If gold went through the roof, couldn't he just use legal tender for all debts, public and private?
Not if you wrote it for ounces of gold, or settlement in US gold coin.....a "gold contract".

That's exactly how they did an end run around the legal tender decision of the Supremes (Juilliard v. Greenman, 110 U.S. 421...1884), until banned by the Gold Reserve Act of 1934. ( The use of gold clauses was re-instated by Congress in 1977 ) Instead of writing up just a "dollar" amount, it was written specifically to settle in gold coin at the option of the contract holder.

Banning the use of gold contracts was another way to remove the notion of the public that gold is money. Been legal to use them again since 1977, but bet ya hardly anyone knows this.
 

Malus

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#35
Another option, often overlooked, is simply DON'T CONVERT to FRNs.

Use your metals to purchase things directly. Takes a bit more effort, but it can be done. I just sold a piece of land, and owner financed it. I started to offer the guy a real discount for a "gold contract".....one in which he paid the down payment and monthly payments in gold coin, but he really didn't seem like the type.

SO, next time you go to buy something large, that you intended to convert metals to buy, try offering......you never know !

Went into my dentist few years back (gold at 1200), needing a crown ( 800FRNs ) and laid a new 1/2oz eagle, a $10 1880's eagle (hair less than 1/2oz) and my check book on my stomach while he was working.....and said "pick one, Doc". He took the $10 eagle and was happy to get it.

Done it with silver rounds on other stuff.....you'd be surprised at the discount, and willingness to accept.....worst case, they say no......you don't know until you ask, huh ?
That reminds me of my back doctor (acupressure), we discuss monetary issues and one time when I went to pay for a couple of months worth I offered him a choice, plastic, cash, cash/metal or metal. He took the cash/metal option and soon after he took his daughters inheritance (left by grandma) and bought physical silver, I think at the time it was around $27. He has no doubts about it now.......
 
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#37
Not if you wrote it for ounces of gold, or settlement in US gold coin.....a "gold contract".

That's exactly how they did an end run around the legal tender decision of the Supremes (Juilliard v. Greenman, 110 U.S. 421...1884), until banned by the Gold Reserve Act of 1934. ( The use of gold clauses was re-instated by Congress in 1977 ) Instead of writing up just a "dollar" amount, it was written specifically to settle in gold coin at the option of the contract holder.

Banning the use of gold contracts was another way to remove the notion of the public that gold is money. Been legal to use them again since 1977, but bet ya hardly anyone knows this.
US Gold coin only. So this wouldn't work with Maples or Krugs? I guess they could be exchanged easily enough. thanks for the info Andy.
 

Saguaro Kid

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#38
Can the gubment know if you bought some PM from AMPEX with a personal check?
 
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#39
These porn surfing jags employed by Uncle got nothing better to do than pull a search. Bet this thread comes up. Let it go.
 

TnAndy

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#40
US Gold coin only. So this wouldn't work with Maples or Krugs? I guess they could be exchanged easily enough. thanks for the info Andy.
Probably more sticky issue with non US coin, since that could be considered "barter". ( and taxes due ). With US coin being legal tender as well as paper, they wouldn't have much of a case to stand on. What you in effect would be doing is transferring your tax liability to the other guy somewhat....in that if HE converted to FRNs, he would be liable for tax.

On the other hand, depending on how you structured the contract, you 'basis' for something like land might be real low too ( say you used the face value of coins rather than bullion value), so if later YOU sold the land for FRNs, you might have a huge tax issue as well.

The devil is in the details.