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sighting in my Savage .308

Eat Beef

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#41
Do you know about breathing techniques and trigger control?

It's hard to explain, you would be best off if you could find an Appleseed shoot near you, they do a great job with all the basics.

Basically you should exhale and break the shot before inhaling. It's called a natural respiratory pause and it's about as still as your body will get. You'll notice that the sights move on the target, but they move rythmically, so you try to break the shot as the sights are lined up with the target. If you run out of air, just breath and try again, if you don't break the shot when the sights are on the target, regroup and try on the next time they swing across.

Your trigger finger shouldn't be touching anything but the trigger on the "pad" of your fingertip; don't allow your finger to drag against the stock at all. Pull the trigger straight back, don't push or pull it to the side. Make a nice, even, smooth motion, don't try to hurry or jerk the trigger.

Also, in field positions, try to find your Natural Point Of Aim. You want to be aiming at your target when relaxed, not using your muscles to contort yourself into aiming. If you close your eyes and rest and your sights are no longer on the target you don't have a NPOA. If you are using your muscles to push the sights where you want them to go, your muscles will wiggle, and your accuracy will suffer. Get comfortable and get as much contact with solid objects as possible. A sling will help a lot in standing.

I'm sure I'm missing a lot of finer points, and Tom probably has more and better pointers, but if you can get these few things it will improve your shooting immensely.


All that said, don't be afraid to cheat. A rolled up coat on an improvised rest will make you a lot more steady, so will a bipod or a pack. If the deer doesn't have a rifle, it's not a fair fight anyway!
 

ttazzman

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#42
great points BEEF.......learning trigger control is major..........and your description of NPOA was spot on.....

i am going to have to have my Gal read your post about NPOA.......been tring to explain this concept for a while with mixed results......finally she has been doing better this year mostly by putting a shotgun in her hands and shooting skeet has helped her with that.....she is natually left handed ....but shoots right handed......everything is a challenge :afraid:

odd thing is .....i can pick up her gun and shoot a target group and it will be off 6" from her group.....im struggling to figure out what she is doing.....she says she is seeing a full scope picture etc....

any thoughts/suggestions from anyone would be appreciated
 

smooth

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#43
Please keep up the tips guys. I have no training, and am having trouble keeping a group under 1.5" at 100 yards with a rifle (.308) that should be shooting sub MOA. I know I'm flinching and shouldn't be. I can shoot my .177 near keyhole at 50 yards. But I grab my Savage .308 and sitting on a portable rest shooting 1.5' TO 2" groups at 100 yards. My brother with a bad back grabs it and shoots 3/4 inch groups...

After shooting 20 rounds through my .308, I cant even hit sh!t with a rim fire.....:(
 

Joseph

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#44
Do you know about breathing techniques and trigger control?

It's hard to explain, you would be best off if you could find an Appleseed shoot near you, they do a great job with all the basics.

Basically you should exhale and break the shot before inhaling. It's called a natural respiratory pause and it's about as still as your body will get. You'll notice that the sights move on the target, but they move rythmically, so you try to break the shot as the sights are lined up with the target. If you run out of air, just breath and try again, if you don't break the shot when the sights are on the target, regroup and try on the next time they swing across.

Your trigger finger shouldn't be touching anything but the trigger on the "pad" of your fingertip; don't allow your finger to drag against the stock at all. Pull the trigger straight back, don't push or pull it to the side. Make a nice, even, smooth motion, don't try to hurry or jerk the trigger.

Also, in field positions, try to find your Natural Point Of Aim. You want to be aiming at your target when relaxed, not using your muscles to contort yourself into aiming. If you close your eyes and rest and your sights are no longer on the target you don't have a NPOA. If you are using your muscles to push the sights where you want them to go, your muscles will wiggle, and your accuracy will suffer. Get comfortable and get as much contact with solid objects as possible. A sling will help a lot in standing.

I'm sure I'm missing a lot of finer points, and Tom probably has more and better pointers, but if you can get these few things it will improve your shooting immensely.


All that said, don't be afraid to cheat. A rolled up coat on an improvised rest will make you a lot more steady, so will a bipod or a pack. If the deer doesn't have a rifle, it's not a fair fight anyway!
thanks EB -

excellent info

I just found Appleseed sites. There are two locations within 45 minutes of me. next session is in March np - plenty to do beforehand - NPOA
 

TomD

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#45
Please keep up the tips guys. I have no training, and am having trouble keeping a group under 1.5" at 100 yards with a rifle (.308) that should be shooting sub MOA. I know I'm flinching and shouldn't be. I can shoot my .177 near keyhole at 50 yards. But I grab my Savage .308 and sitting on a portable rest shooting 1.5' TO 2" groups at 100 yards. My brother with a bad back grabs it and shoots 3/4 inch groups...

After shooting 20 rounds through my .308, I cant even hit sh!t with a rim fire.....:(
How much experience with a high power rifle? Probably trigger control. Like Eat Beef says, pad of index finger contact only, slowly increase pressure straight back so that you don't know what instant it will let off, deep breath and let about half out. Practice it with an empty chamber about 50 times in a row and a few times in between shots until you get things under control. (don't "dry snap" rimfire, center fire okay) If you're shooting from a rest, don't touch the rifle except lightly with your hand, trigger finger and lightly with shoulder.

Have you cleaned your rifle? Using what? Copper solvent? How many rounds since cleaning? What are you feeding the rifle? Check scope mounting screw tightness. Check action mounting screw tightness.

No rifle on earth will shoot sub-MOA while being fed Tula ammo (or equivalent). Try your accuracy testing with Federal Match or some premium load, bulk stuff won't cut it. Most people who reload do it for accuracy rather than cost.

If the barrel is copper fouled, it will not shoot. And new factory barrels are bad about copper fouling. You need a bore guide, a stainless or coated one piece rod, brass jag, patches, bore brush and some cleaning solvent that clearly says on the label is effective for copper. If your barrel has become copper plated, the bore brushes will turn blue. I use Bore Tech Eliminator but it's just one brand. Some people can get 80+ rounds out with minimal accuracy falloff due to fouling but that's with a custom hand lapped and perfectly smooth barrel. Factory barrels are worse to varying degrees and new factory barrels very often foul ferociously.
 

Eat Beef

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#46
He said his brother is shooting 3/4 MOA with the same rifle/ammo.

Smooth, you need to dry fire A LOT. Your wife will probably give you the stink eye, so try to do it when she's not around. MAKE SURE there is no ammo anywhere near you. Then get into a position, any position, but I like to do it with a good rest, normally prone with a bag, loop sling, or bipod.

Pick out a target you can focus on. I usually lay in the kitchen and sight on the front door (down the hall, across the living room). It doesn't matter as long as the target fits the reticle and it's far enough to allow the scope to focus on it's lowest power.

Now get into a good position (NPOA), practice your breathing control, and trigger control. Try to keep your shooting eye open through the "click" of the hammer fall. At first you won't be able to, but after enough practice you'll start to associate the trigger pull with the click rather than the boom.

Once you can keep your eye open (or at least keep it open longer), you can watch what your sights are doing as the trigger breaks. This isn't a 5 minute job, nor is it a one session job. You're basically rewiring your brain to think that pulling a trigger doesn't lead to loud noises, recoil, and muzzle blast.

This is definitely a time that you need to remember that amateurs practice until they get it right, professionals practice until they can't get it wrong. Snapping in will help you fix your flinch, but shooting will develop a new one, so it's sort of a way of life more than a cure. Keep snapping in even when you don't have a flinch, it will keep you from developing one.


Or you could just buy a suppressor, since I started shooting suppressed I don't snap in much at all, but I'm not flinching because there's no noise or muzzle blast, and very little recoil.
 

Rusty Shackelford

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#47
Finding out real quick that there is a difference between shooting and hunting.;)

Above average hunting/field skills will often times compensate for weaker shooting skills. Superior shooting skills will rarely make up for weak hunting skills.
 

Argentsum

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#48
Finding out real quick that there is a difference between shooting and hunting.;)

Above average hunting/field skills will often times compensate for weaker shooting skills. Superior shooting skills will rarely make up for weak hunting skills.
+100

Its all well and good to fire off a bench where the range is known and your cup of coffee is waiting.

The shot you get while hunting is often-times from a standing position, at a moving target, after stalking and tracking for hours in the cold.

Range shooting tests the equipment, whereas hunting tests the shooter.

That all said, the better hunters can sometimes get the drop on prey at shorter ranges or with more time to make a shot.
 

Unca Walt

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#49
great points BEEF.......learning trigger control is major..........and your description of NPOA was spot on.....

i am going to have to have my Gal read your post about NPOA.......been tring to explain this concept for a while with mixed results......finally she has been doing better this year mostly by putting a shotgun in her hands and shooting skeet has helped her with that.....she is natually left handed ....but shoots right handed......everything is a challenge :afraid:

odd thing is .....i can pick up her gun and shoot a target group and it will be off 6" from her group.....im struggling to figure out what she is doing.....she says she is seeing a full scope picture etc....

any thoughts/suggestions from anyone would be appreciated
Ttazz,

I'll start with the likely assumption that you are talkin' a hunnert yards... A six-inch difference twixt shooters is not at all improbable; it is likely a tiny bit of parallax. Means nuffin if it IS YOUR RIFLE. :cheerful::thumbs_up:
 

Unca Walt

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#50
Originally Posted by Rusty Shackelford Finding out real quick that there is a difference between shooting and hunting.

Above average hunting/field skills will often times compensate for weaker shooting skills. Superior shooting skills will rarely make up for weak hunting skills.



+100

Its all well and good to fire off a bench where the range is known and your cup of coffee is waiting.

The shot you get while hunting is often-times from a standing position, at a moving target, after stalking and tracking for hours in the cold.

Range shooting tests the equipment, whereas hunting tests the shooter.

That all said, the better hunters can sometimes get the drop on prey at shorter ranges or with more time to make a shot.
Oh Gawd! How true it is. My buddy Charlie (a principal character in many of my hunting articles) is a TERRIBLE shot.

But a fantastic hunter.

EXAMPLE: He got a nice M-1 Garand (*drool*) from that NRA thing. I loads it up, heart thumpin' with love, and put the whole clip in the ten ring. He reloads, shoots, and has a pattern that looks like a shotgun was used.

Yeah... and HE has a fargin roomful of twelve-and-up pointers. I do not. I suck at hunting. We have discussed this at length. He says, "Walt, if you see it, you almost always get it."

I sez: "OK, but you see many times more than me, and they're almost always bigger! And closer."

Charlie looks at me with that face you could use to split kindling, and after a loooooong pause says, "Yup."
 
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#51
I doubt you could be consistant within 1.25" due to your scope at 100yds. Your crosshairs probebly cover that big of an area.
Dialing in closer and adjusting height is probebly the best way with a regular scopes crosshairs in a 3x9.

Learn your drop, test on realistic sized targets for your scope.

Good luck.

E-A
 

SWRichmond

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#52
Please keep up the tips guys. I have no training, and am having trouble keeping a group under 1.5" at 100 yards with a rifle (.308) that should be shooting sub MOA. I know I'm flinching and shouldn't be. I can shoot my .177 near keyhole at 50 yards. But I grab my Savage .308 and sitting on a portable rest shooting 1.5' TO 2" groups at 100 yards. My brother with a bad back grabs it and shoots 3/4 inch groups...

After shooting 20 rounds through my .308, I cant even hit sh!t with a rim fire.....:(
You're flinching.

Holding on to something that is kicking you and making a really loud noise like an explosion is not a natural act. The mind wants to get away from it. You must train the mind.

How to do this? One: repetition. This is what dry firing is for. It teaches the mind that there is no explosion or kick. It also allows you to teach your mind when the body position feels right. Some call this muscle memory. Teaching the body and mind what is right, through repetition, is how you allow the mind to not think about all of the things on the list of things you need to do in order to fire an accurate shot. After thousands of repetitions they just happen. Then you can concentrate on the short list: sights, trigger, and perhaps wind.

When dry firing lots of times you really should use some kind of snap cap thing to protect the firing pin, unless it's a 1911 which you can (and should) dry fire thousands of times.

Dry fire until you get physically tired, then quit; forcing it teaches you bad habits through efforts to compensate. Repeat the next day, etc. If you really want to get good at this dry fire or shoot several times a week.
 

ttazzman

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#53
its easy for anyone to develop flinches........one of my cures is to spend some time at the range with double ear protection.....ear muffs and ear plugs.....my tendacy is more to flinch from sound than recoil...
 

Argentsum

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#54
Might consider investing in a limbsaver recoil pad. $30-$40 bucks and ten minutes to install.

I put one on my .308 and it does reduce the felt recoil.

I have a more difficult time with flinching when I hear a rifle report. Best I can do is to hang out at the rifle range
for thirty minutes drinking coffee while other people shoot. Eventually my flinch goes away as I get use to the sound of sporadic rifle shots...and then I go shooting.
 

Joseph

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#55
SP-PP are basicly the same thing....

I use 150gr ....SP and PP in my deer rifle....in both .308 and 30-06....the cheap winchester/remmington/federal stuff seems to work great.....never had a deer run away ever....and i have shot a lot of deer.......i have also used 180gr with similar results but since the 150grs worked just fine i liked that they shoot flatter

i have had deer run a bit using HP ammo.....so i dont use it any more.......the issue was it tended to lack penetration and at close ranges would sorta explode in the first inch of penetration "the deer ran a bit and it ruined more meat"..it would be my opinion if i were shooting long ranges this might be the prefered ammo due to better expansion at lower velocitys due to long range

I bought 400 rounds of Hornady 150 gr SP and am hitting the range as much as time will allow,
now I'm trying to stock up, but almost everything is backordered. I'm thinking of ordering whatever I
can find in stock. Are there brands i should avoid ?

how about Monarch ? they seem to have mixed reviews
http://www.academy.com/shop/pdp/monarch-8482-sp-308-winchester-150-grain-rifle-ammunition/pid-28707
 

917601

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#56
I bought 400 rounds of Hornady 150 gr SP and am hitting the range as much as time will allow,
now I'm trying to stock up, but almost everything is backordered. I'm thinking of ordering whatever I
can find in stock. Are there brands i should avoid ?

how about Monarch ? they seem to have mixed reviews
http://www.academy.com/shop/pdp/monarch-8482-sp-308-winchester-150-grain-rifle-ammunition/pid-28707
Winchester, and any " cheap stuff". I reloaded Winchester cases and they are some of the worst. Weighing each shell casing new had up to 10 grains of difference in weight, which means difference in volume.same with their bullets, 150 grn measured a wide variance in bullet weight, up to plus minus 5 grains. They also , as many others, use powder plates, which measure powder by volume, not weight. If you expect 1 inch accuracy, you really need to load your own, off the shelf stuff will only give you 2 in groups at 100, my reloads give bullet hole touching bullet hole at 100 off the bench. Also, when A barrel heats up, most off the shelf rifles change point of impact, look up bedding and free floating barrels. I have a Garand that I free floated and get 1/2 inch groups 100, with CMP M2 surplus ammo...the Winchester ammo shoots 2 1/2 . my Winchester pre 64 free floated that gets bumblebees at 100, with my reloads.
1) check your barrel to see if you can pass a one dollar bill ( clearance) between wood and barrel up to the action. Disassemble and use chalk to see if barrel hits the wood, sand that area down.when the barrel heats up it hits the wood moving point of impact.

Second thing that you can do, reload your own.

You can spend hours , I used to, but with factory gun and factory loads, 2 in groups at 100 yds bench is good, if repeatable ( use 3 shot groups and measure the average.), also, some guns like heavy slower moving bullets others like lighter and faster. I prefer the heaviest, as the wind will not kick it around. For 30.06 or .308, use 168 grn and record the difference against 150 grn. Accurate Guns are much like woman.......
 

917601

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#57
is winchester way off ? i punched in 308 fmj 147gr 2800fps 25yd zero .5in site height........results were -5.4in at 200yds

however with a site height of 1.3 inches your calcs do work out
Bullet shape, 150 grn M2 flat based shoots dead on with my Garand, I reloaded my own with 150 grn Winchester FMJ spitzer( base tapered not flat) with the same powder load and they shoot 3 inches higher than the flat based military stuff. Same gun, same range, same day.....Coefficient of friction, sectional density,.....all that comes into play. That is why many reloaders invest in a chronograph to check the actual FPS difference,......barrel length, auto, bolt, all effect the advertised velocity. You can spend a lot of time and money trying to get an off the shelf rifle to shoot sub MOA repeatedly. That is a whole nother discussion...... Barrel quality, trigger pull,bedding, clearances, ammo quality, firing pin material, long seated bullets, short seated...Sub MOA shooting is a science. Your Savage in my opinion is shooting well for what it is, under 2 inche groups.......do make sure your scope and rings is tight and has not moved, ...
 
Last edited:

ttazzman

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#58
I bought 400 rounds of Hornady 150 gr SP and am hitting the range as much as time will allow,
now I'm trying to stock up, but almost everything is backordered. I'm thinking of ordering whatever I
can find in stock. Are there brands i should avoid ?

how about Monarch ? they seem to have mixed reviews
http://www.academy.com/shop/pdp/monarch-8482-sp-308-winchester-150-grain-rifle-ammunition/pid-28707
I try to stick to "name brand" stuff......but just about anything is going to be ok at "short distances" 100yds or under....

I personally prefer Federal ammo as my prefered value ammo....price vs quality
 

TomD

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#60
Bullet shape, 150 grn M2 flat based shoots dead on with my Garand, I reloaded my own with 150 grn Winchester FMJ spitzer( base tapered not flat) with the same powder load and they shoot 3 inches higher than the flat based military stuff. Same gun, same range, same day.....Coefficient of friction, sectional density,.....all that comes into play. That is why many reloaders invest in a chronograph to check the actual FPS difference,......barrel length, auto, bolt, all effect the advertised velocity. You can spend a lot of time and money trying to get an off the shelf rifle to shoot sub MOA repeatedly. That is a whole nother discussion...... Barrel quality, trigger pull,bedding, clearances, ammo quality, firing pin material, long seated bullets, short seated...Sub MOA shooting is a science. Your Savage in my opinion is shooting well for what it is, under 2 inche groups.......do make sure your scope and rings is tight and has not moved, ...
917601, I know you're in Atlanta. Would you happen to be a Riverbend Gun Club member?
 

917601

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#61
917601, I know you're in Atlanta. Would you happen to be a Riverbend Gun Club member?
No, I shoot at " Crazy Bob's", he is 5 minutes away, rifle range out to 200 yards, for 500 or more I visit friends in the country. Crazy Bob is private membership, if he does not like you ( he always strikes up conversation at sign up time and does not like many people) he is " full", and he loves Morgans and Peace dollars, I gift him a few each Christmas. Excellent gunsmith, just did a trigger job on my .44 SW model 629......