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Special Treatment ONLY for China and Nobody Else

FunnyMoney

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#81
...
Managed float/ dirty float... yeah sure... but a peg! 6 to 7 is ~ 17% variation... that is not a fixed ratio!!!
You are looking at the last few years, I'm looking at the early part of the last 4 decades. It was in the early part where most of the damage was done and where the direction and paths were set into place.

The two schools (K vs A) are the primary ones, but I do know there are others. Both schools are not as far apart as people think. They involve different strategies applied to mostly the same economic theory and modeling.

The strategies is where the costs and the benefits are distributed. My OP is about those costs and those benefits.

We had the #1 manufacturing base and a broad and deep industrial base to spring off of. Those have been lost and JMHO, I believe that is directly due to the "managed float" as you called it or "managed PEG" as I called it as well as a few other slightly less important factors.

I continue to believe: the American Manufacturing Worker was destroyed because of special treatment given away to China through the actions of paid off traitors.
 
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Zed

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#82
You are looking at the last few years, I'm looking at the early part of the last 4 decades. It was in the early part where most of the damage was done and where the direction and paths were set into place.
Not really and surely the last number of years proves the point that a peg that is too unrealistic cannot be held artifically.

The two schools (K vs A) are the primary ones, but I do know there are others. Both schools are not as far apart as people think. They involve different strategies applied to mostly the same economic theory and modeling.
Well I'd agree that John Maynard Keynes would not endorse most of what has had his name pinned on it.

The strategies is where the costs and the benefits are distributed. My OP is about those costs and those benefits.
Those strategies are pretty uniform across the world and they are what drove the reshaping of the US economy. Triffin Dilemma etc..

You can fight alongside the mainstream descriptions of these events all you want to but it's not going to change the facts from decades ago.

We had the #1 manufacturing base and a broad and deep industrial base to spring off of. Those have been lost and JMHO, I believe that is directly due to the "managed float" as you called it or "managed PEG" as I called it as well as a few other slightly less important factors.

You fight hard to promote the status quo, MSM, ideas and talking points when it comes to the China economic and monetary relationships with the rest of their trading partners. You fight hard against my less well known talking points - or at least recently less well known because a few decades ago they were talked about more during the days of Perot and others.

I admire you ability to keep the MSM talking points about this issue at the forefront and your attempts to squash and remove any of the Austrian school interpretations of the last several decades regarding the destruction of the American manufacturing worker.
In NO WAY is the dynamic that Triffin points out an MSM talking point, very few people do the work to understand what is really happening here and those that do certainly aren't working for MSM. Tagging me as a promoter and supporter of MSM is a Strawman attack that, at least around here, is designed to discredit me. I don't really appreciate that and it's not helpful in getting to the REAL reason this is going on. Funny, if there where no China this would still be happening. For better or worse it is a vestige of the way the system works.

But just because I admire your ability to distract from the OP (American Manufacturing Worker destroyed because of special treatment given away to China), doesn't mean I won't continue to make my point.
This is again demonising China, the American worker would be better off understanding the real dynamic at play. Only then might a solution be found, ignorance is no way to improve the lot of the displaced workers.


You believe whatever you want to and if you are so convinced then you should start your own thread about it.
I believe what I can support with reason and evidence. Little else really matters to me, I am not married to these ideas and if you had presented a compelling case I would switch tracks immediately.

Admiration is not the same as agreement, I continue to believe: the American Manufacturing Worker was destroyed because of special treatment given away to China through the actions of paid off traitors.
You keep saying that but what of the rest of the world that is doing very similar things? You feed the kids red cordial and they all behave about the same. Wake up and smell the coffee, this is a systemic issue and what is more, they all know it and they will stay with the system while it suits. Game Theory, Stable Disequilibrium etc etc... We are seeing signs of stress here and it is possible that we are about to see a shift in the balance here. During the transition there will be a lot of pain all around, fighting with China because of it will just compound the misery and stop you blaming the real culprits.

If you are to change my mind you need to bring an argument to the table, so far you have asserted a "truth" and given little to support the idea.
 

FunnyMoney

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#83
... pain all around, fighting with China because of it will just compound the misery and stop you blaming the real culprits....
Sorry for the discredit attack. My fault there, I think I got a bit frustrated. I shouldn't have wrote that.

I also don't blame any Chinese worker for this situation. Americans and the world could have helped China come out of the Mao era of starvation without the PEG.

So the "real culprits" ? Who are they?

I still believe the PEG is an important part of the picture and it was "allowed" to take place because the big money powers found it in their interest to use it. You still have not convinced me otherwise, although I agree with a lot of what you say.

Also still believe the ramifications of that tweak in the system at the main table has been detrimental to the American worker and the American economy - and that somewhere at the root of that PEG we will find treasonous acts which took place during the Bush and possibly other administrations.

I know the official description is "managed float" however, that detracts from the stealth criminal manipulation involved. "Float" who are they trying to fool?
 
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Zed

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#84
So the "real culprits" ? Who are they?
I'm going to take a little time and think that one out. I will post a theory later that I'd welcome constructive comment on. It is an interesting question.
 

Joe King

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#86
NO WAY is the dynamic that Triffin points out an MSM talking point, very few people do the work to understand what is really happening here and those that do certainly aren't working for MSM. Tagging me as a promoter and supporter of MSM is a Strawman attack that, at least around here, is designed to discredit me. I don't really appreciate that and it's not helpful in getting to the REAL reason this is going on.
Yea, he thinks anything that counters his position is MSM sourced. He even accused the guy from the China Uncensored YouTube channel of being MSM. lol


If you are to change my mind you need to bring an argument to the table, so far you have asserted a "truth" and given little to support the idea.
He said he was alive in 1981, does that count?
 

FunnyMoney

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#87
The ramifications are clear....

  • The US had the biggest and best manufacturing base among nations in 1980 and China's was barely starting up.
  • Today, our manufacturing base plays about 5th fiddle in the global manufacturing marketplace.
That flip-flop didn't happen without a lot of global help and treason.

The currency manipulations made the Chinese products artificially cheap for retail consumption, globally. Without the PEG, US manufacturing would have stayed competitive in both domestic and global demand.
 

Zed

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#88
  • The US had the biggest and best manufacturing base among nations in 1980 and China's was barely starting up.
  • Today, our manufacturing base plays about 5th fiddle in the global manufacturing marketplace.

That flip-flop didn't happen without a lot of global help and treason.
No, it is exactly what Triffin described and it is the downside to being the reserve currency of the world. There are many advantages but there is always a cost, losing your manufacturing base has been the cost. I urge you to read and understand the reason this works that way. It is no conspiracy and perhaps it could have been partially avoided but given our political systems that is not the most probable outcome.

Funny, I am not really sure the US could have changed the outcome even if your political system was full of highly disciplined types, maybe the best would have been a delay in the inevitable. I'm trying to think it through and gain some clarity, it would be interesting to hear other viewpoints on that. i.e. Could it have been different? and no, a floating currency for China wouldn't be a game changer.
 

DodgebyDave

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#89
Alive in 81? So, where was his mom in 1980?
 

FunnyMoney

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#90
Alive in 81? So, where was his mom in 1980?
She was in heaven I hope. She passed during the birth of my youngest brother.
Why do you and JK try to make all my posts about my own personal or family traits?

How is my mom relevant to Chinese currency manipulation?
 

FunnyMoney

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#91
Re-read this entire thread.

Amazed at how the status quo posters deflected whenever possible (and even when not possible) away from the many decades long currency manipulation by the Chinese.

They'll talk about anything other than the obvious advantage.

Instead or addressing the direct ramifications of the manipulation, they claim there were trade-offs.
They claim a PEG or a managed float is not a big deal.
They claim the advantage is to the American worker.

They claim it has to do with where my mom was in the 80's.

"Patriot Pretenders" - this is who they are.
 

Joe King

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#92
Why do you and JK try to make all my posts about my own personal or family traits?
All I did was repeat that you had said you were alive in 1981, which was your response to someone asking for proof of your"known facts".

Amazed at how the status quo posters deflected whenever possible (and even when not possible)
you're the only one doing that. Someone asks you to vote your "known facts" and all you do is go into a speel about how your pc just ain't fast enough.

Patriot Pretenders" - this is who they are
I'd say that more accurately describes yourself.
 

FunnyMoney

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#93
You have defended the status quo, ignored the obvious manipulations and by doing so they have defended the treasons committed by our past leaders. Are you a card carrying member of the communist party or a member of the PBOC because your tactics on this thread sure make it seem that way.

The defense of foreigners taking advantage of the American worker is at least very un-patriotic - JMHO.

China manipulated their currency for many decades using the PEG or the "managed float" as the MSM likes to coin it. Your defense of their tactics has been noted, thank you for posting your beliefs.
 

Joe King

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#94
your tactics on this thread sure make it seem that way.
my tactics are merely trying to get you to back up your "known facts".
...but your response is to say, "I would, but darn, my pc is just too slow so you'll just have to look it up yourself."
Ie: the true mark of one who shoots from the hip.


Btw, I never got an answer of whether mags should take a long time, or just 30 days. At various times you've proclaimed both to be true. Which is it?
 

FunnyMoney

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#95
my tactics are merely trying to get you to back up your "known facts".
...
He was shot, his agenda changed. It was nearly 40 years ago. You want me to be your secretary or something?

Removal of currency manipulations are a precursor to fair and free trade negotiations. There's no point in using tariffs or negotiating trade until the currency manipulations come to a halt.... but wait...….

This thread isn't about that. Because that war is already lost.

The manufacturing base to spring off of no longer exists for the American worker. This thread is about why and how they were "allowed" to do this.
 

Zed

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#96
Removal of currency manipulations are a precursor to fair and free trade negotiations. There's no point in using tariffs or negotiating trade until the currency manipulations come to a halt.... but wait...….
Don't forget domestic subsidies... something our farmers are up against when they export to you and others.
 

FunnyMoney

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#97
Don't forget domestic subsidies... something our farmers are up against when they export to you and others.
That is correct, this is also a factor. China has used gov't programs to help their domestic economy more than anyone.
This is something which also outweighs the impact of tariffs or other trade policy. Both currency manipulations and domestic subsidies can be used to force a lop-sided trading environment.

But we know all that. I knew all that at the start of this 3-page long thread when I wrote the OP.

My purpose was to take that information into the next step.... Why was this "allowed" and who allowed it.
 

Zed

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#98
The defense of foreigners taking advantage of the American worker is at least very un-patriotic - JMHO.
OK, it seems this is dogma with you and you really don't want to understand why it is happening.

Funny I have tried to think about how it could have been different and so far it seems to me that it would resolve the same way no matter how much was altered in terms of floating currencies, petrodollar agreements, currency accords etc. The fact is that the US had the strongest economy the planet and that sealed the reserve role all other things aside. Every country on the planet is then incentivized to keep its currency and industry competitive to export into your market. In keeping the currencies competitive and low excess reserves had to be funneled back to the US which creates a virtuous cycle of vendor financing. This is great until it breaks and it does have the side effect of shifting the US workers up the scale into the higher economic functions and away from the grunt work (industry). While that is painful for those in industry those that upskilled and changed had a good ride.

The fact is that Britain went through a similar cycle as the US took over as the dominant force in the world. You simply did it better and bigger. Now you are in the position that Britian was with China, save for some demographic twists. In about a century China will also end up gutted by the same process... assuming China doesn't stumble too badly over its demographics.

You see it as a black and white patriotic issue, it isn't. It is a nuanced global dynamic with wins and losses all around. If it were not somewhat balanced there would be war, and it may well come to that in the transition. Learn from Britain, the US will never be what it was, you are shifting into a mature economy status and you have to work with that new reality. No doubt this process will see you lose the reserve status as Britain did, in the long run that will reduce the pressure on you and give the space to redefine things BUT it will lower your living standards back down toward the average.

Over and out.
 

Zed

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#99
Why was this "allowed" and who allowed it.
This isn't high school, there are no rule makers. International trade is war with money and there are no rules, just costs, and benefits. You are whining that the game didn't go 100% your way and it was never going to. Get over it, grow up and stop complaining... it is going to get rougher before it gets better. Study Britians history, man up and skill up to navigate the new terrain.
 

FunnyMoney

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OK, it seems this is dogma with you ...

You see it as a black and white patriotic issue, it isn't. It is a nuanced global dynamic with wins and losses all around. If it were not somewhat balanced there would be war, and it may well come to that in the transition. Learn from Britain, the US will never be what it was, ...BUT it will lower your living standards back down toward the average. .
Thanks for the reply. Sorry again for being so terse and the quote wasn't intended at you.

I understand the history and I fully understand the points you have made.

The global dynamics could have evolved without the special advantage for a tyrannical regime. The events in the late 80's were shrugged off by our leaders because there was a short term profit to be made and most of that profit went to them and their friends - it wasn't good for the American people and a case can be made that it wasn't good for the average global worker either.

Babies being born with half a brain in sewer laden sweat camps just on the other side of our border is only one small example of how the status quo global economic evolution is playing out.

But there's plenty of proof that the current version of globalism is good for only a very few, bad for many and really really bad for some.

You see this as normal evolution and I see this as abnormal evolution - that's my take away after reading your post.
 

FunnyMoney

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This isn't high school, there are no rule makers. International trade is war with money and there are no rules, just costs, and benefits. You are whining that the game didn't go 100% your way and it was never going to. Get over it, grow up and stop complaining... it is going to get rougher before it gets better. Study Britians history, man up and skill up to navigate the new terrain.
Don't go down that road - you know that's not happening.

I don't back down and give acceptance to the devil's army. I will point out the traitors and the crimes and I will pursue it for it's own benefit, regardless whatever happens to me personally. Pointing out the sell outs and the traitors and going into the details isn't the same as whining - it is writing down the truth, nothing more and nothing less.

American freedom and liberty has been and still is being sold down the river by traitors - I'm not backing away from that and I don't believe it to be normal evolution.
 

Zed

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American freedom and liberty has been and still is being sold down the river by traitors - I'm not backing away from that and I don't believe it to be normal evolution.
That is another topic.

Don't go down that road - you know that's not happening.
No I don't and yes I think it is happening eventually.

I don't back down and give acceptance to the devil's army. I will point out the traitors and the crimes and I will pursue it for it's own benefit, regardless whatever happens to me personally. Pointing out the sell outs and the traitors and going into the details isn't the same as whining - it is writing down the truth, nothing more and nothing less.
You are up against half of the country that is in the government's employment one way or another. Good luck.
 

Zed

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The global dynamics could have evolved without the special advantage for a tyrannical regime.
I don't think that there has been any special advantage. In fact, I think that they have probably restricted themselves and that they would be much further ahead if they were a free nation. I think the fact that they are still basically communist has held them back and enable you guys to reign for longer. As they run into trouble it may even give you more breathing space as you are in better shape in some regards.
 

Zed

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You see this as normal evolution and I see this as abnormal evolution - that's my take away after reading your post.
NO, I see that the competitive dynamic would have resolved this way regardless GIVEN what the players are. If they where all my ideal of a free market then I think you'd be in deeper trouble. I think that the backward centralized approach has hobbled them somewhat.
 

Joe King

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He was shot, his agenda changed. It was nearly 40 years ago. You want me to be your secretary or something?
no, but acknowledging that you were wrong might be a good start.


That is correct, this is also a factor. China has used gov't programs to help their domestic economy more than anyone.
China is nothing but one giant domestic gov program.

All anyone is trying to tell you is that anyone can peg something to the dollar if they have the means and feel it is in their best interests to do so.
Every nation is looking to do what is in their best interest, but you expect them not to do so?

Yes, China manipulates it's currency. Them doing so also results in all of us here in America getting cheaper prices on imports. How is it not advantageous to you to get more for your money than you otherwise would have been able to?
...and have gotten those cheaper prices for virtually your entire life.

In a nutshell, China making their exports cheaper is sort of like a subsidy for American shoppers.






I have tried to think about how it could have been different
how I think it could have been different is if Nixon hadn't closed the gold window and there had been no petrodollar, a. hyperinflation would have wiped us out long before Reagan's time in office. Jmho


You see it as a black and white patriotic issue, it isn't. It is a nuanced global dynamic with wins and losses all around. If it were not somewhat balanced there would be war,
exactly. FM doesn't think other nations should do what's on their own best interest. Only what's in our best interest.


I don't back down and give acceptance to the devil's army.
so now you think that anyone who questions your "known facts" is an agent of the devil?


Don't go down that road - you know that's not happening.
No I don't and yes I think it is happening eventually.
of course it is. Just a matter of time. Nothing man-made is forever.
 

Zed

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how I think it could have been different is if Nixon hadn't closed the gold window and there had been no petrodollar, a. hyperinflation would have wiped us out long before Reagan's time in office. Jmho
Yeah, thought about no petrodollar but really given you had the dominant economy and where the biggest customer for all commodities I don't see how we wouldn't have ended up in the USD to trade these things anyway.

The gold window was always doomed to close IMO, but I'm not sure how that would have really been significant other than for the price of gold if you bought all you really needed to back the USD. I guess there would have been more in the global money go round if you had. I'm a bit hungover today, maybe not thinking straight!

Even if the USD gov had restricted debt issuance I think that the recycled funds would have just driven rates lower sooner and ended up in the private sector faster. I think it would have just been a bigger boom with less .gov friction but essentially the same end result. Maybe more higher-end employment but nothing addressing Funny's issues.

I'm still pondering it but I can't see any substantial game changers. I guess that also means that there is little China can do over the long run to prevent the same cycle playing out again.