• "Spreading the ideas of freedom loving people on matters regarding metals, finance, politics, government and many other topics"

Surfside, FL Building Collapse

Buck

Where'd My Country Go?
Midas Member
Sr Site Supporter
Joined
Apr 13, 2011
Messages
20,700
Reaction score
26,330
based only on selected evidence....
i do that with everything nowadays

1624642768009.png


like hanging around here instead of working...because life's better that way
 

MrLucky

Gold Member
Gold Chaser
Silver Miner
Sr Site Supporter
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
2,239
Reaction score
3,005
Location
Rock <me> Hard-Place
Great article here with lots of before & after pictures.

 

MrLucky

Gold Member
Gold Chaser
Silver Miner
Sr Site Supporter
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
2,239
Reaction score
3,005
Location
Rock <me> Hard-Place
That's crazy. I'm not a subscriber and when I click on it, it's open to read.

Huge cut & paste coming up. Ooopsie. too large to process. brb later
 

MrLucky

Gold Member
Gold Chaser
Silver Miner
Sr Site Supporter
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
2,239
Reaction score
3,005
Location
Rock <me> Hard-Place
Here's the article without the pictures. Pics coming soon.

Before and after look at Champlain Towers South, the Florida building that partially collapsed

Investigators were working to determine what caused the collapse of a 12-story condominium in Surfside, Florida. Here's what the building looked like.


George Petras, Stephen J. Beard, Jennifer Borresen, Jim Sergent and Ryan W. Miller, USA TODAY

Published 1:26 PM EDT Jun. 24, 2021 Updated 3:37 PM EDT Jun. 25, 2021

Rescuers were searching for survivors in the rubble Friday after a 40-year-old South Florida beachside condo building collapsed, killing at least four people and leaving 159 unaccounted for.

Investigators were working to determine what caused part of the Champlain Towers South, a 12-story condominium, "pancaked" in the town of Surfside, Florida, shortly before 2 a.m. Thursday.

About half of the building's more than 130 units were affected, said Miami-Dade County Mayor Daniella Levine Cava.

"We will continue search and rescue because we still have hope that we will find people alive," Levine Cava said Friday morning.

Why the building collapsed is not immediately known. Burkett said the roof was being worked on recently, but he did not think that caused the building to fall. A study published in 2020 also found the building was sinking at a rate of about 2 millimeters a year in the 1990s.

The collapse left piles of debris around the building and coated cars two blocks away with dust.

Latest updates Friday: 'We still have hope that we will find people alive': At least 4 dead, 159 unaccounted for in Florida building collapse

What caused the condo building in Florida to collapse? Here's what experts say.

Four people are dead and dozens are missing after a condo collapsed near Miami. Here's what experts think caused the deadly collapse.

Just the FAQs, USA TODAY

Here's what we know about the building:



What building collapsed in Miami?

Champlain Towers South, a 12-story condominium, collapsed in the town of Surfside, Florida which is north of Miami Beach.

What time did the building collapse?

The building collapsed shortly before 2 a.m. Thursday.

How old was the building that collapsed in Miami?

Champlain Towers South was built in 1981. The L-shaped Champlain Towers South is located in the southeast corner of Surfside, and Burkett said the building was not old relative to some other art deco buildings in South Beach built in the 1920s.

"There's no reason for this building to go down like that," Burkett said.

Video shows moment of condo tower collapse in Surfside, Fla.

Slow motion video of the 12-story condo building collapse in Surfside, Fla. At least four people are dead and as many as 150 people are unaccounted for.

Fox - Ktvu, Fox - Ktvu

Photos: Heartbreaking images capture the Surfside building collapse and rescue efforts

The town of Surfside requires commercial and multi-family buildings to be recertified every 40 years, which involves electrical and structural inspections for a report to be filed with the town. That process was underway for the building but had not yet been completed, town officials said Thursday.

"Bottom line is that's not an old building, and 40-year inspection or not, that kind of thing should not be happening," Burkett said.

Researchers found condo had been sinking into Earth at alarming rate

A researcher at Florida International University said the building was constructed on reclaimed wetlands and was determined to be unstable a year ago.

The building was sinking at a rate of about 2 millimeters a year in the 1990s, and the sinking could have slowed or accelerated in the time since, according to a 2020 study conducted by Shimon Wdowinski, a professor in the Department of Earth and Environment at Florida International University.

“I looked at this morning and said ‘Oh my god.’ We did detect that,” he said of the Champlain Towers South.

The level of subsidence observed in the 1990s can result in impacts to buildings and their structures, such as cracked walls or shifting foundations, Wdowinski said.

The subsidence detection technology used cannot discern whether the building itself was sinking due to a structural issue, or the land in general has moved.

Investigation: Collapsed Miami condo had been sinking into Earth as early as the 1990s

Why did Florida building collapse?

Federal scientists and engineers will head to Champlain Towers South to determine whether federal officials should conduct a full investigation, said Jennifer Huergo, spokeswoman for the National Institute of Standards and Technology.

The federal agency was given more authority to investigate building collapses after several buildings fell in the 9/11 attacks. NIST also had a role in investigating other critical events, including a deadly Kansas City hotel walkway collapse and a deadly Rhode Island nightclub fire.

If the organization conducts a full investigation it would try to determine the technical causes of the collapse and recommend changes to building codes or practices, Huergo said Friday morning.

Rescue operations were ongoing as of Thursday evening.

Roof work was being done recently

Burkett said roofing work was ongoing at the building. A crane had been at the building, and he said the work would have likely required an inspection and permit.

Burkett did not know how heavy the equipment being used to work on the roof was, but he did not think the weight of it would have caused the collapse. "It's hard to imagine that that could have been the impetus for such a catastrophic collapse," he added.

Could king tides and sea level rise have contributed to collapse?

Saltwater and brine-soaked air settle into the pores of coastal construction, growing a rusty crust around the steel skeletons that reinforce oceanfront structures. It weakens the bonds between metal and concrete creating cracks and crumbles in vulnerable areas, such as balconies.

But some building experts wondered if the environmental assault supercharged by climate change could have played a role in the catastrophic collapse at Champlain Towers South Condo.

“Sea level rise does cause potential corrosion and if that was happening, it’s possible it could not handle the weight of the building,” said Zhong-Ren Peng, director of University of Florida’s International Center for Adaptation Planning and Design. “I think this could be a wakeup call for coastal developments.”

The building had more than 130 units

Online records show more than 130 units in the building. Some were owned by individuals and other by LLCs.

A few two-bedroom units in the development are listed for sale with asking prices of $600,000 to $700,000, an Internet search shows.

The building's website promotes "incredible oceanfront views or spectacular views of inter-coastal waterway with the City in the Background."

It adds that year-round ocean breezes help keep the temperatures moderate in the summer and winter and that the condos are "located near some of the best shopping Miami has to offer as well as the famous Miami Nightlife."

SOURCE USA TODAY Network reporting and research; Associated Press, Google Earth

Contributing: Gina Barton, Kyle Bagenstose, Pat Beall, Aleszu Bajak, Elizabeth Weise, Becky Kellogg, Andy Scott, David Baratz, Rachel Aretakis, Teresa Frontado, Mike Stucka, Kimberly Miller and Shawn Sullivan.

'I have no hope': Loved ones await news, survivors flee after condo building partially collapses near Miami

Published 1:26 PM EDT Jun. 24, 2021 Updated 3:37 PM EDT Jun. 25, 2021


© Copyright G
 

Buck

Where'd My Country Go?
Midas Member
Sr Site Supporter
Joined
Apr 13, 2011
Messages
20,700
Reaction score
26,330
They want money for me to subscribe before I can see the article
it opened right up for me...

i enjoyed the graphics, that gave me perspective on the failure
 

MrLucky

Gold Member
Gold Chaser
Silver Miner
Sr Site Supporter
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
2,239
Reaction score
3,005
Location
Rock <me> Hard-Place
1624655658839.png
 

MrLucky

Gold Member
Gold Chaser
Silver Miner
Sr Site Supporter
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
2,239
Reaction score
3,005
Location
Rock <me> Hard-Place
1624655703395.png


1624655995209.png
 

MrLucky

Gold Member
Gold Chaser
Silver Miner
Sr Site Supporter
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
2,239
Reaction score
3,005
Location
Rock <me> Hard-Place
1624655777556.png
 

MrLucky

Gold Member
Gold Chaser
Silver Miner
Sr Site Supporter
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
2,239
Reaction score
3,005
Location
Rock <me> Hard-Place
1624656096236.png
 

Crockett

Site Supporter
Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Messages
480
Reaction score
763
Are my eyes deceiving me? I have looked carefully at all the linked images below and do not see a single I-beam in use anywhere. All I see is concrete and rebar. I have always assumed that there is a structural steel framework hidden inside. Do they really build concrete structures without a structural steel framework? :don't know:

https://images.jifo.co/21540721_1624630480761.png
https://images.jifo.co/21540721_1624631321630.png
https://images.jifo.co/21540721_1624631467766.png
https://images.jifo.co/21540721_1624631080539.png
https://images.jifo.co/21540721_1624630777588.png
https://images.jifo.co/21540721_1624634020662.png
 

Buck

Where'd My Country Go?
Midas Member
Sr Site Supporter
Joined
Apr 13, 2011
Messages
20,700
Reaction score
26,330
Are my eyes deceiving me? I have looked carefully at all the linked images below and do not see a single I-beam in use anywhere. All I see is concrete and rebar. I have always assumed that there is a structural steel framework hidden inside. Do they really build concrete structures without a structural steel framework? :don't know:

https://images.jifo.co/21540721_1624630480761.png
https://images.jifo.co/21540721_1624631321630.png
https://images.jifo.co/21540721_1624631467766.png
https://images.jifo.co/21540721_1624631080539.png
https://images.jifo.co/21540721_1624630777588.png
https://images.jifo.co/21540721_1624634020662.png
i noticed the debris didn't seem to hold much steel poking up out of it too...

concrete and rebar in a salty damp environment sounds like a very bad combination

that makes me wonder how long those regulations were in effect? that can't be the only building built like that


the addition of the pictures is nice, i hadn't seen those yet
Thanks
 

Buck

Where'd My Country Go?
Midas Member
Sr Site Supporter
Joined
Apr 13, 2011
Messages
20,700
Reaction score
26,330
1624667902546.png


it appears they made a rescue by cutting that hole in that wall

imagine the trauma on that kid(s)...


"if the bogeyman comes, just stay in bed..."
 

hammerhead

Morphing
Midas Member
Midas Supporter ++
Joined
Feb 22, 2012
Messages
13,975
Reaction score
20,453
Location
USSA
Are my eyes deceiving me? I have looked carefully at all the linked images below and do not see a single I-beam in use anywhere. All I see is concrete and rebar. I have always assumed that there is a structural steel framework hidden inside. Do they really build concrete structures without a structural steel framework? :don't know:

https://images.jifo.co/21540721_1624630480761.png
https://images.jifo.co/21540721_1624631321630.png
https://images.jifo.co/21540721_1624631467766.png
https://images.jifo.co/21540721_1624631080539.png
https://images.jifo.co/21540721_1624630777588.png
https://images.jifo.co/21540721_1624634020662.png
I hadn't worked on one from start to finish but as I watched them go up, it's a floor at a time. Lots of rebar and concrete but surprisingly little I-beams.



 

Buck

Where'd My Country Go?
Midas Member
Sr Site Supporter
Joined
Apr 13, 2011
Messages
20,700
Reaction score
26,330
Thanks Hammer, that was very interesting to watch


the word Blender comes to mind...

throwaway
 

Scorpio

Hunter of Chin Li's Boo Hoo Flu
Founding Member
Board Elder
Site Mgr
Midas Supporter ++
Joined
Mar 25, 2010
Messages
34,070
Reaction score
51,467
very very common slave kennel construction used worldwide,

you will only see heavy steel structure on 'skinned' buildings, skeleton + glass or other
 

Buck

Where'd My Country Go?
Midas Member
Sr Site Supporter
Joined
Apr 13, 2011
Messages
20,700
Reaction score
26,330
so, it's basically sandwich city for those on floors 2 through 12 while it's pancake city for those on level #1, plus the cars and garbage are usually there too...

so, the best place to live is always on the top of the building, that way you can just 'ride it down'

i really didn't think it was that 'cheap', reminds me of a bit more, just a bit more than what's used in Tijuana or Mexico proper...
or CA or SA, points south...third world cheap like when their buildings collapse, during earthquakes, they all seem to collapse, like Honduras...poor folks crap construction

wow, i'm not laughing out loud, just wow that it's used here, by the sea, in hurricanes...crazy times

and there will be more, i have no doubt
 

hammerhead

Morphing
Midas Member
Midas Supporter ++
Joined
Feb 22, 2012
Messages
13,975
Reaction score
20,453
Location
USSA
so, it's basically sandwich city for those on floors 2 through 12 while it's pancake city for those on level #1, plus the cars and garbage are usually there too...

so, the best place to live is always on the top of the building, that way you can just 'ride it down'

i really didn't think it was that 'cheap', reminds me of a bit more, just a bit more than what's used in Tijuana or Mexico proper...
or CA or SA, points south...third world cheap like when their buildings collapse, during earthquakes, they all seem to collapse, like Honduras...poor folks crap construction

wow, i'm not laughing out loud, just wow that it's used here, by the sea, in hurricanes...crazy times

and there will be more, i have no doubt
I was looking for a vid of how the builders will pour a floor and have it lifted on screw jacks to the desired height with no luck finding one. The way I became aware of such a method back in the late 80's was because one floor collapsed on the guys building it.
 

Voodoo

Midas Member
Midas Member
Platinum Bling
Site Supporter ++
Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Messages
4,845
Reaction score
7,603
Location
Deep Underground Bunker
i noticed the debris didn't seem to hold much steel poking up out of it too...

concrete and rebar in a salty damp environment sounds like a very bad combination

that makes me wonder how long those regulations were in effect? that can't be the only building built like that


the addition of the pictures is nice, i hadn't seen those yet
Thanks

Watch some of the demo shows. There are concrete buildings all over the place and many near the ocean. They take a lot of explosives to bring down like that building.
 

Rusty Shackelford

Midas Member
Midas Member
Midas Supporter
Joined
Apr 1, 2010
Messages
7,052
Reaction score
6,158
Location
Northern most Southern State
Climate change was the culprit!!!!

Miami will be gone soon!!!


In the article, there is one sane guy that said it was a building problem that was not being seen in other structures in the area.


FEAR the MONGER!!
 

dacrunch

Midas Member
Midas Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2010
Messages
7,941
Reaction score
10,748
The whole strip along the Intracoastal from Miami Beach northbound past Palm Beach is not "bedrock", but a porous coral reef, with a lot of landfill to make it flat and even and continuous where there used to be mangrove swamps.

Undermining by ocean currents and waves seems quite likely all along the reef, imho.
 
Last edited:

viking

Silver Member
Silver Miner
Joined
May 12, 2010
Messages
2,214
Reaction score
2,969
climate change
Climate change was the culprit!!!!

Miami will be gone soon!!!


In the article, there is one sane guy that said it was a building problem that was not being seen in other structures in the area.


FEAR the MONGER!!

I already knew that.
 

Buck

Where'd My Country Go?
Midas Member
Sr Site Supporter
Joined
Apr 13, 2011
Messages
20,700
Reaction score
26,330
How Dare You

 

hammerhead

Morphing
Midas Member
Midas Supporter ++
Joined
Feb 22, 2012
Messages
13,975
Reaction score
20,453
Location
USSA

SURFSIDE, Fla. (AP) — The oceanfront condominium building that collapsed near Miami had “major structural damage” to a concrete structural slab below its pool deck that needed to be extensively repaired, according to a 2018 engineering report on the building.

While the engineering report from the firm of Morabito Consultants did not warn of imminent danger from the damage — and it is unclear if any of the damage observed was responsible for the collapse — it did note the need for extensive and costly repairs to fix the systemic issues with the building.



It said the waterproofing under the pool deck had failed and had been improperly laid flat instead of sloped, preventing water from draining off.
 

the_shootist

Midas Member
Midas Member
Sr Midas Supporter +++
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
64,182
Reaction score
128,835

SURFSIDE, Fla. (AP) — The oceanfront condominium building that collapsed near Miami had “major structural damage” to a concrete structural slab below its pool deck that needed to be extensively repaired, according to a 2018 engineering report on the building.

While the engineering report from the firm of Morabito Consultants did not warn of imminent danger from the damage — and it is unclear if any of the damage observed was responsible for the collapse — it did note the need for extensive and costly repairs to fix the systemic issues with the building.



It said the waterproofing under the pool deck had failed and had been improperly laid flat instead of sloped, preventing water from draining off.
Ivanka lives a short distance from this building collapse and , well, you know...QQueue decoder rings to the ready!!
So no secret squirrel stuff involved then? Whew, that's a relief, huh?
 

offourse2

Site Supporter
Site Supporter
Seeker
Joined
Jul 27, 2013
Messages
226
Reaction score
390
Location
The Big Sandbar
The whole strip along the Intracoastal from Miami Beach northbound past Palm Beach is not "bedrock", but a porous coral reef, with a lot of landfill to make it flat and even and continuous where there used to be mangrove swamps.

Undermining by ocean currents and waves seems quite likely all along the reef, imho.
How deep is the old reef along there? I do not know. I do know the top of the 1st reef is in about 15 feet of water and about a 125/150 yards out from the "shoreline" the second reef is approx. 250 yards beyond that in 30/40 feet. These are barrier islands that move up and down the coastline. I have seen high tide waves lapping at the bases of condos in that area in the past, meanwhile tptb were rushing in beach renourishment dredges and dozers. No matter how much offshore sand we pump back onto the beaches Mother Nature will win in the end. Those buildings are built on sandbars not stable land.
 

Casey Jones

Ridin' that train
Silver Miner
Joined
Apr 4, 2020
Messages
5,192
Reaction score
8,253
Location
Down the road from the Kaczynski ranch
The whole strip along the Intracoastal from Miami Beach northbound past Palm Beach is not "bedrock", but a porous coral reef, with a lot of landfill to make it flat and even and continuous where there used to be mangrove swamps.

Undermining by ocean currents and waves seems quite likely all along the reef, imho.
Some places, you just shouldn't build.

This is in evidence in the West and Rockies, where Eastern elites - used to seeing cabins built under the forest canopy in the wet Smokey Mountains or Adirondacks - they just duplicated that in the alpine desert forests of Colorado and the Lake Tahoe area. For that matter, even into LA.

And you can't DO that. Those forests are dry as tinder, summers - living right in that environment makes a fire more likely, and if a wildfire races through, your home is GONE. A firebreak is essential - so unlike Eastern woodlands, with their almost-daily rainfall.

Likewise, here. The shoreline and ocean view is lovely. It simply is not safe or practical to put up huge high-rises right there! For the reasons you mention - false anchors on the footings, coral versus bedrock...it goes up, and appears sound for a few years; and then appears to be in a controlled shift for a few more; and then you have a hundred people trapped in the rubble and the responsible parties are standing there, looking stupid.
 

Oldmansmith

Midas Member
Midas Member
Site Supporter ++
Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Messages
5,231
Reaction score
6,138
Location
Taxachusetts
Boston radio news 1030 had a story today, no need to worry for similar structures in Boston, Boston is on wetlands that were filled In the 17 and 1800s, the foundations are on wooden piers in the water table so they can't rot as long as the water level dosen't drop, and the water table is monitored, nothing to worry about.

Right, wooden plies driven into the muck in the 1700s still holding up high rises, I feel better now.
 

Casey Jones

Ridin' that train
Silver Miner
Joined
Apr 4, 2020
Messages
5,192
Reaction score
8,253
Location
Down the road from the Kaczynski ranch
I changed my desire to live in a high rise. Right now I own a top floor of a two-story oceanfront.
I stopped liking the idea of living in a highrise about the time the WTC towers came down.

Funny thing was, five months earlier I HAD moved out of the top floor of a 25-story apartment house on Lake Erie's shoreline, and had just purchased a ramshackle owner-built home with five acres, outside Buffalo. Then, September 11.

I'll never go back to such an environment. I'm negotiating for an RV to live in, in the rest of my retirement. Go where the winds blow me. I'm really done with Leftist urban sumps, and that's all of them.
 

Buck

Where'd My Country Go?
Midas Member
Sr Site Supporter
Joined
Apr 13, 2011
Messages
20,700
Reaction score
26,330
I changed my desire to live in a high rise. Right now I own a top floor of a two-story oceanfront.
you could almost see the ground from your balcony

snicker...

if you looked, you could

:rotf:

dude, be sure to toss the cooler out first
 

Goldhedge

Moderator
Site Mgr
Midas Supporter
GIM Hall Of Fame
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
60,858
Reaction score
125,242
Location
Rocky Mountains
Buy an RV and travel the country while playing Pickleball and attending the occasional music festivals along the way.

You can map out your route based upon music festivals alone.
 

hammerhead

Morphing
Midas Member
Midas Supporter ++
Joined
Feb 22, 2012
Messages
13,975
Reaction score
20,453
Location
USSA
Boston radio news 1030 had a story today, no need to worry for similar structures in Boston, Boston is on wetlands that were filled In the 17 and 1800s, the foundations are on wooden piers in the water table so they can't rot as long as the water level dosen't drop, and the water table is monitored, nothing to worry about.

Right, wooden plies driven into the muck in the 1700s still holding up high rises, I feel better now.
That's Boston for ya though. The whole city is messed up. Driving there is ridiculous.
 

AurumAg

Ag mirror of truth Aurum purity of mind
Midas Member
Sr Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Messages
13,362
Reaction score
19,744
Location
The State of Jefferson
Sounds downright Biblical:

Those buildings are built on sandbars not stable land.

And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.


Matthew 7:26-27
 

nickndfl

Midas Member
Midas Member
Sr Midas Supporter +++
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
Messages
15,798
Reaction score
16,533
Location
Florida
Here is the most plausible explanation so far:

1. Building was constructed by a less than serious, well qualified developer who paid cash for a lot of labor and materials. Miami at that time was built to launder drug money and things were done like that and still are sometimes.

2. The concrete pool deck was not waterproofed to prevent water from running down into the below deck parking garage where the failure occurred. When it rains the salt on the building from sea spray was washed down into the parking garage where it accumulated because the floor was not beveled properly causing it to pool.

3. Over a period of years the salt was absorbed into the concrete affecting the steel rebar which began to swell.

4. Windy conditions were reported, but that is common along the coast. That is what powered sailing ships in their day. Consider decades of windy conditions battering the building and the oscillating effect with salt water gradually impacting the concrete causing it to crumble. They did not use Roman concrete.

5. Eventually the change in pressure and corrosion caused the steel reinforcing to begin snapping at the base until an unstoppable chain of events occurred causing the collapse.
 

dacrunch

Midas Member
Midas Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2010
Messages
7,941
Reaction score
10,748
Anyways... after several bad experiences (others deciding what you can and CANNOT do, and MUST do, and choosing what YOU must PAY FOR), several years ago I decided to only own a dwelling without an "association", neither "condo" nor "neighborhood"... Hard to not have "local codes" though... which also force expenses and limitations on your PERSONAL DECISIONS...

The "living permanently, mobile, in an RV" (have to get a HUGE one for that to be "comfortable", i.e. "converted school bus"), avoids "property taxes" (apart from some States), and you can choose which State you want to have for your taxes... but a "residential mailing address" can be a problem, as much for bank accounts as for several other issues. For that, a relative's address can be handy, if in a State where you won't have bad "taxation consequences".
 

the_shootist

Midas Member
Midas Member
Sr Midas Supporter +++
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
64,182
Reaction score
128,835
Boston radio news 1030 had a story today, no need to worry for similar structures in Boston, Boston is on wetlands that were filled In the 17 and 1800s, the foundations are on wooden piers in the water table so they can't rot as long as the water level dosen't drop, and the water table is monitored, nothing to worry about.

Right, wooden plies driven into the muck in the 1700s still holding up high rises, I feel better now.
Every single one of them got their vaccine jabs and the most hard core of them are still wearing their masks because they're so brave, heroic and respectful of others.