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Surfside, FL Building Collapse

Unca Walt

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The whole strip along the Intracoastal from Miami Beach northbound past Palm Beach is not "bedrock", but a porous coral reef, with a lot of landfill to make it flat and even and continuous where there used to be mangrove swamps.

Undermining by ocean currents and waves seems quite likely all along the reef, imho.
crunchie -- What you say is true. I've lived down here for a loooong time. And one of the things I have noted is that if you are "on the beach", you cannot have any windows open. SALT will wreck your electronics and stuff.
And salt mist (essentially a daily thing) attacks concrete and follows any cracks to rebar. Frankly, I am surprised with 60 fargin MILES of tall concrete buildings built on sand a couple hundred feet from the actual ocean shoreline, that they haven't been falling down all over.

And nickndfl is spot on.

Here is a perfect example of what apparently happened from the crappy setup they had there:

1624797010008.png


From this technical site:
We get this quote (and see if it doesn't make you think twice about an ocean-front condo):

Here’s a fun fact takeaway: The intrusion of chloride ions, present in deicing salts and seawater, into reinforced concrete can cause steel corrosion if oxygen and moisture are also available to sustain the reaction. Chlorides dissolved in water can permeate through sound concrete and reach the steel. Chloride-containing admixtures can also cause corrosion.

Followed by this:

SPALLING: When steel corrodes, the resulting rust occupies a higher volume than the steel, which creates expansion and causes tensile stress to the concrete. Expanding corrosion of concrete-covered steel is like an internal pressure cooker to the surrounding concrete, causing it to spall. When spalling occurs, pieces of the concrete basically pop off (like an unsecured lid on said pressure cooker). Spalling can ultimately create more severe problems, because it perpetuates a vicious cycle.

If left untreated, spalls can accelerate deterioration by leaving even more steel exposed to the environment (see the ghastly photo below). In fact, rusting is one of the most common failure modes of reinforced concrete in bridges and buildings.
1624796711298.png

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Would you park your car in this garage?


1624796809021.png
 

Casey Jones

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Good God! I had NEVER THOUGHT of this; of the effect of salt on rebar.

Makes perfect sense. Salt permeates the concrete, at expansion joints and through the porous material. Corrodes rebar which swells. Busts open the concrete, and failure.

In the Great Lakes region, old bridges and road structures, concrete with rebar, are the standard. So is throwing hundreds of tons of salt on the roadways, every winter. And so is damage as was shown in those photos.

Back 40 years ago, there was a big hooplah in Cleveland, as a very-rare concrete bridge WITHOUT reinforcement, was condemned. It was about a century old; and the concrete was coming loose and falling into Rocky River (actually just a long creek) threatening boaters (it was dredged from the mouth on Lake Erie to a municipal boat pier and fuel station).

But it lasted a century, and that included 25 years of really reckless use of road salt (they use less, now; but salting roads for ice removal was new in the 1950s, and they just laid it on).

In fact, the basic structure was still sound to the point where the west approach was saved and made into the foundation for an office tower overlooking the valley. That still stands today.

Comparing that to 30-year-old bridges, curbstone installations, and whatnot, where the concrete has busted open and the rusted iron rebar is displayed, in all its oxidized glory.

I always thought the concrete failed from the freeze-thaw cycle and the rebar rusted upon the splitting of the concrete. Instead, I guess, salty moisture gets THROUGH the intact concrete, creates the rust, and THAT busts the concrete.

That should (but probably will not) cause a revolution in the molding of concrete. Composite or plasticized reinforcement bar? Epoxy rods? C'mon, man!...we have the technology...
 

dacrunch

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I worked on a high-rise by the ocean there in the early 2000's. They were using an new-fangled system to replace re-bar in slabs on each floor. It was cables under tension all along the the stretch of the slabs.

But they were steel cables, so just as vulnerable to sea-salt as re-bar... and under tension, one "snap" and all the concrete surrounding them would disintegrate...

Before core-drilling any holes for the piping, we had to get the slab x-rayed to make sure that we wouldn't drill through a cable...

Methinks it isn't the "real solution" for the problem...

PS - All the jobs I had by the ocean had just one excellent side-effect = After work, I'd go to the trunk of my car, take off my sweaty clothes, get into my swimming gear and spend an hour in 90F sea-water... before heading home.
 

Brio

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I find it odd that if the building collapsed because of subsidence or failed concrete and rebar (or both) that it pancaked straight down. That means everything support failed at the exact same time. Also, only 4 dead so far? That's quite fortuitous. Jes sayin.
 

Casey Jones

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I worked on a high-rise by the ocean there in the early 2000's. They were using an new-fangled system to replace re-bar in slabs on each floor. It was cables under tension all along the the stretch of the slabs.

But they were steel cables, so just as vulnerable to sea-salt as re-bar... and under tension, one "snap" and all the concrete surrounding them would disintegrate...

Before core-drilling any holes for the piping, we had to get the slab x-rayed to make sure that we wouldn't drill through a cable...

Methinks it isn't the "real solution" for the problem...

PS - All the jobs I had by the ocean had just one excellent side-effect = After work, I'd go to the trunk of my car, take off my sweaty clothes, get into my swimming gear and spend an hour in 90F sea-water... before heading home.
I wonder if anyone has thought of using heavy polyethylene rope or cable as reinforcement?

What breaks down polyethylene rope, is UV rays. Embedded in concrete, it would be protected. My old man, an industrial salesman for Humble Oil/Esso, had samples of the then-new polyethylene rope he'd give to buyers. We had a lot of that laying around the house, for tents and fishing boats; and I have a few coils even now, 55 years later.

It wouldn't provide the resistance to sheer shifting but it would tie slabs together, if enough were used and it were thick enough.
 

the_shootist

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I find it odd that if the building collapsed because of subsidence or failed concrete and rebar (or both) that it pancaked straight down. That means everything support failed at the exact same time. Also, only 4 dead so far? That's quite fortuitous. Jes sayin.
only 4 dead because all the bodies are between the pancaked levels and that will take more than a few days to remove and expose what's there

To your first point that FL video of the collapse had the same effect on me that WTC 7 had when I watched that building collapse. How does a building fail all at once? In this case there are some mitigating circumstances with regard to corrosion and salt. Two different types of construction in two separate environments tells me the two events were probably not related in their causes and I'm still stumped by WTC7
 

Brio

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only 4 dead because all the bodies are between the pancaked levels and that will take more than a few days to remove and expose what's there

To your first point that FL video of the collapse had the same effect on me that WTC 7 had when I watched that building collapse. How does a building fail all at once? In this case there are some mitigating circumstances with regard to corrosion and salt. Two different types of construction in two separate environments tells me the two events were probably not related in their causes and I'm still stumped by WTC7
I'm skeptical. 3 days is enough to begin a search for survivors yet only four dead accounted for.
 

the_shootist

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Ya don't say :laughing:
Somebody needs to carry the torch of doubt in these times of disinformation, distraction, insurrection and tyranny! :banana:

Truth is very difficult to verify these days!
 
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Unca Walt

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I find it odd that if the building collapsed because of subsidence or failed concrete and rebar (or both) that it pancaked straight down. That means everything support failed at the exact same time. Also, only 4 dead so far? That's quite fortuitous. Jes sayin.
Once a fairly rigid structure structure fails at one place on the bottom level, the stresses reach a peak that shears everything by the time the failed (stress overloaded) budges even a couple of inches, every bet is off and the whole shebang relieves.

Especially, as was pointed out, if some corners were cut to squeeze a few bucks more out of the construction...

And it is now 5 dead.
 

MrLucky

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Composite or plasticized reinforcement bar? Epoxy rods?
I believe epoxy, plastic coated rods are used in some instances, but there is a problem there too. If the plastic cover is cut or nicked a path for water entry is created. The total encasement of the rod keeps the water in .... perfect storm.

Dead up to 9
 

the_shootist

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I believe epoxy, plastic coated rods are used in some instances, but there is a problem there too. If the plastic cover is cut or nicked a path for water entry is created. The total encasement of the rod keeps the water in .... perfect storm.

Dead up to 9
There's still a huge debate re: the cause of the WTC7 collapse after 20 years. I wonder how long this one will fester for!
 

Unca Walt

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There's still a huge debate re: the cause of the WTC7 collapse after 20 years. I wonder how long this one will fester for!
This one ain't gonna last the afternoon.

Personal accounts are showing up from people who got out. This one reads like a disaster movie:

Horrified FL Condo Resident Saw Cracks Form in Her Apartment, Heard a Fearsome Noise: 'It Was Infernal'​

One survivor, Iliana Monteagudo, who is in her 50s, recounted to the New York Post the terrifying moments after she was awoken about 1:30 a.m. by “strange noises.”

She told the Post she thought the sounds had come from an “open sliding door to the oceanfront balcony.”

“I ran and tried to close it, but I couldn’t. I imagine because it was unlevel already because of all the movement,” she explained. “I heard a crack and when I looked, I saw a crack traveling in the wall two fingers thick. Something told me, ‘you need to run.’”

Monteagudo, whose unit was on the building’s sixth floor, said that if she had stayed even one more minute, she may not have survived.

“Two more minutes, no, no. Not even one. There was no more time,” she said.


Monteagudo described her escape: “When I was running down the stairs I went from six, to five and then four, I heard a tremendous noise. It was infernal. The building was falling. I don’t know how I managed to escape.”

Outside, it was pitch black. She recalled seeing smoke and water all around her and began to pray.

“God help me, I want to see my children. God please help me, don’t let me die like this,” she said.

“The security ran out screaming there was an earthquake, we need to go.”

They helped her to safety.

“I lost everything now. I have nothing,” she said. “But I have my life and that’s all that matters. With life, there is hope. We can start again.

“I just pray for all the others that might be trapped.”

Monteagudo told the Post she had bought her unit in December, and only learned about the building’s structural issues afterward.
 

the_shootist

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This one ain't gonna last the afternoon.

Personal accounts are showing up from people who got out. This one reads like a disaster movie:

Horrified FL Condo Resident Saw Cracks Form in Her Apartment, Heard a Fearsome Noise: 'It Was Infernal'​

One survivor, Iliana Monteagudo, who is in her 50s, recounted to the New York Post the terrifying moments after she was awoken about 1:30 a.m. by “strange noises.”

She told the Post she thought the sounds had come from an “open sliding door to the oceanfront balcony.”

“I ran and tried to close it, but I couldn’t. I imagine because it was unlevel already because of all the movement,” she explained. “I heard a crack and when I looked, I saw a crack traveling in the wall two fingers thick. Something told me, ‘you need to run.’”

Monteagudo, whose unit was on the building’s sixth floor, said that if she had stayed even one more minute, she may not have survived.

“Two more minutes, no, no. Not even one. There was no more time,” she said.


Monteagudo described her escape: “When I was running down the stairs I went from six, to five and then four, I heard a tremendous noise. It was infernal. The building was falling. I don’t know how I managed to escape.”

Outside, it was pitch black. She recalled seeing smoke and water all around her and began to pray.

“God help me, I want to see my children. God please help me, don’t let me die like this,” she said.

“The security ran out screaming there was an earthquake, we need to go.”

They helped her to safety.

“I lost everything now. I have nothing,” she said. “But I have my life and that’s all that matters. With life, there is hope. We can start again.

“I just pray for all the others that might be trapped.”

Monteagudo told the Post she had bought her unit in December, and only learned about the building’s structural issues afterward.
Good one!! At this point Walt corrosion and structural failure seem like the most plausible explanation for the Miami tragedy. As much as we sometimes like to think otherwise, not everything is a cabal rooted event. Some bad chit still happens all on its own :rage 1
 

D-FENZ

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I worked on a high-rise by the ocean there in the early 2000's. They were using an new-fangled system to replace re-bar in slabs on each floor. It was cables under tension all along the the stretch of the slabs.

But they were steel cables, so just as vulnerable to sea-salt as re-bar... and under tension, one "snap" and all the concrete surrounding them would disintegrate...

Before core-drilling any holes for the piping, we had to get the slab x-rayed to make sure that we wouldn't drill through a cable...

Methinks it isn't the "real solution" for the problem...

PS - All the jobs I had by the ocean had just one excellent side-effect = After work, I'd go to the trunk of my car, take off my sweaty clothes, get into my swimming gear and spend an hour in 90F sea-water... before heading home.
Probably 'post-stressed' concrete. Kinda like 'pre-stressed' only- well, you know. We've worked on some buildings using that system. It really is an amazing process. Plastic coated/ sleeved cables are run through the forms before the concrete is poured and then stressed with hydraulic pullers after the concrete cures for a week or so. Huge slabs poured on stilts formed with massive temporary scaffold supports. When they stress those cables the slab actually flexes up and the supports loosen and even fall over.

And oh yeah, don't you dare drill into one of those cables. We never had x-rays to find them, only maps with no-go zones.

Ahem... Never have I ever found blue plastic shavings when drilling anchors for pipe supports or Uni-Strut...
 

Goldhedge

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5 dead but how many missing?? 100+? I suspect it's beginning to smell a bit...
 

the_shootist

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5 dead but how many missing?? 100+? I suspect it's beginning to smell a bit...
I think it's around 150-160 missing

This is right on the beach, right? Around here the beach always smells like farts at low tide
 

Goldhedge

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Death smells much worse than geese farts in a wind storm....
 

Casey Jones

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Death smells much worse than geese farts in a wind storm....
It's supposed to.

For the same reason shit stinks.

It's a biological evolution...your brain reacts to those smells, to tell you: This is BAD STUFF here. Leave it ALONE - it will make you SICK.
 

Hystckndle

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Probably 'post-stressed' concrete. Kinda like 'pre-stressed' only- well, you know. We've worked on some buildings using that system. It really is an amazing process. Plastic coated/ sleeved cables are run through the forms before the concrete is poured and then stressed with hydraulic pullers after the concrete cures for a week or so. Huge slabs poured on stilts formed with massive temporary scaffold supports. When they stress those cables the slab actually flexes up and the supports loosen and even fall over.

And oh yeah, don't you dare drill into one of those cables. We never had x-rays to find them, only maps with no-go zones.

Ahem... Never have I ever found blue plastic shavings when drilling anchors for pipe supports or Uni-Strut...

D-FENZ is correct. Worked on many post tension stress cabling projects.
After tensioned and if they let go, ( many reasons, but core drill during construction for a pipe or sleeve that someone did not get in in time is a one )
it sounds like a report only salute at the 4th of July in D,C.
Will make you pee your pants if a floor or so below or near it.
And the cable will fly out the end of the slab where it ties in and coil up on the ground.

I have looked at spalling like those pics above in so many buildings here in Florida I cannot count them.
There is a huge issue with the balconies on just about every ocean facing place rotting off after a number of years
and needing to be replaced.
Some is to be expected but the reasons " why " it is doing it on the interiors are the real issue.
Maybe a bad mix or something going on with the cylinders they should have had inspected and documented on each and every pour...
IF they did that back then and protocol was followed. Who knows. Broward and Dade counties and the municipalities down there, dif country.
Dif kind of capitalism is practiced.
The settling of the place is interesting as well.
Most places are set and tied at least to some piles.
OTOH, I have seen 80lft piles driven with a crane hammer and they have, at a certain depth,
gone down in the hole and vaporized out of sight. The whole thing...gone...
A whole area could be a no drive zone.
Some places are just not to be built on.

Been looking at a lot of photos of the rooms where they show the cross sections,
looks like plain old pan deck to me. Maybe even drop in.
About that time , early 80s, they were doing a lot of tunnel form and prefabbed lay in stuff from Europe.
The room slabs look thinner to me, but hard to tell on a mobile device too.
Anyone else see any " beef " in the structure ?

And how about that lady's story up above who had just bought the unit ???
Ya think the real estate agent is CLEAN and did not know anything about the problems with this place ????

Sad stuff.
Back tomorrow, early day at the factory coming up.
Regards to all.
 

Tbonz

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Good God! I had NEVER THOUGHT of this; of the effect of salt on rebar.

Makes perfect sense. Salt permeates the concrete, at expansion joints and through the porous material. Corrodes rebar which swells. Busts open the concrete, and failure.

In the Great Lakes region, old bridges and road structures, concrete with rebar, are the standard. So is throwing hundreds of tons of salt on the roadways, every winter. And so is damage as was shown in those photos.

Back 40 years ago, there was a big hooplah in Cleveland, as a very-rare concrete bridge WITHOUT reinforcement, was condemned. It was about a century old; and the concrete was coming loose and falling into Rocky River (actually just a long creek) threatening boaters (it was dredged from the mouth on Lake Erie to a municipal boat pier and fuel station).

But it lasted a century, and that included 25 years of really reckless use of road salt (they use less, now; but salting roads for ice removal was new in the 1950s, and they just laid it on).

In fact, the basic structure was still sound to the point where the west approach was saved and made into the foundation for an office tower overlooking the valley. That still stands today.

Comparing that to 30-year-old bridges, curbstone installations, and whatnot, where the concrete has busted open and the rusted iron rebar is displayed, in all its oxidized glory.

I always thought the concrete failed from the freeze-thaw cycle and the rebar rusted upon the splitting of the concrete. Instead, I guess, salty moisture gets THROUGH the intact concrete, creates the rust, and THAT busts the concrete.

That should (but probably will not) cause a revolution in the molding of concrete. Composite or plasticized reinforcement bar? Epoxy rods? C'mon, man!...we have the technology...
In many states, like Minnesota for example, there has been a push to use non-corrosive materials to control ice and snow on bridges. This has been the case for many years at airports as well. When you consider freeze thaw cycles, and the ability for liquids to find their way toward the path of least resistance you have a nightmare.

I have not spent as much time in the warmer climates as some of you, but I have traveled extensively along the gulf coast, chasing bikinis, and you look at all of the condos/apartments along the coast, there should be an immediate order to inspect each and every one of them. Hire as many structural engineering companies as needed and get to work.

Florida is the first domino that has fallen.
 

Unca Walt

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Here is a simple fact that I betcha has a shitload of folks nervous:

The TWIN to the collapsed condo... right up the beach. "Officials" went and looked at it and found "no apparent problems".

That would reassure me, living on the second floor... NOT.
 

Scorpio

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some interesting graphics:


do women want you to look at them while getting a blowjob is the vid?

seriously stck, what places are you a frequenting?

anyway,
back to the now 2nd fiddle article

--------------
Biden said during a press conference on Thursday that FEMA had been sent to Florida to ‘look at what’s needed’ including ‘if the rest of those buildings had to be evacuated as well.’
--------------

this is not a 'disaster' and FEMA has no business being there at all,
the Feds have no business there,

it is a standard commercial liability,
ie commercial entities constructing slave kennels on unsuitable property for profit,

has exactly nothing to do with 'disaster', and doesn't even remotely quantify as such
 

Buck

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having FEMA there opens up another door to screw desantis
 

SongSungAU

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Surfside Building Collapse: Observations from an ENGINEER (13 min 26 sec):
The Professor's Record with David K. Clements
Published June 28, 2021
 

Hystckndle

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do women want you to look at them while getting a blowjob is the vid?

seriously stck, what places are you a frequenting?

anyway,
back to the now 2nd fiddle article

--------------
Biden said during a press conference on Thursday that FEMA had been sent to Florida to ‘look at what’s needed’ including ‘if the rest of those buildings had to be evacuated as well.’
--------------

this is not a 'disaster' and FEMA has no business being there at all,
the Feds have no business there,

it is a standard commercial liability,
ie commercial entities constructing slave kennels on unsuitable property for profit,

has exactly nothing to do with 'disaster', and doesn't even remotely quantify as such

What are you speaking of ?
Is there some pop up in there or something ?
I don't see those here at the factory, we block darn near everything known to man.
If so, delete it then.
Tell ya what, I will delete the whole thing.
and....done...
 

hammerhead

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What are you speaking of ?
Is there some pop up in there or something ?
I don't see those here at the factory, we block darn near everything known to man.
If so, delete it then.
Tell ya what, I will delete the whole thing.
and....done...
It's the ads. Luckily you missed them.